Serious Q: Why do some seemingly good, intelligent people support Bush?

[RememberTheCoup]

It would be easy for us to say that all Bush supporters are just jerks or idiots, but so many DUers have friends or family members or acquaintances who seem like decent, not-stupid people, and yet they either support Bush or don't have a strong preference between Bush and Kerry. Why is this? Personally, I'd love to talk in depth to a Bush supporter to find out what goes on inside their head, but my friends and family are basically all for Kerry. I do have a theory, but I'd like to hear others.

[Book Lover]

1. Here's my two cents

We have a two-party system; if you hold conservative political leanings, your only offered choice is the Republican Party. To me, this explains Log Cabin Republicans - they're cheap (oh, I mean fiscally conservative) and so they feel they must support the current jerk-in-chief.

[skylarmae]

2. lemming minded?

[Maple]

3. Fear

Also religious fervor spikes during times of great change.

It's a wish to return to some imaginary safe familiar past.

[soleft]

28. fear of death specifically

All fears can be traced to fear of death - it's the great human delemma for which few have found the answer.

[hiphopnation]

4. My friend is a single-issue voter

He thinks the Bush tax/economic plan is good for business and thinks Kerry's isn't. It's as though that whole "illegal invasion of a soverign nation at the outrage of the entire world (except Poland)" thing doesn't even register with him. :shrug: I'm working on him but he's in MD so I don't think it's an issue.

[AndyTiedye]

11. Tell Him that a Worldwide Boycott of US Goods Would be Bad for Business

[Raster]

36. What I've found, especially in the "good for business" crowd is that....

...they only focus on good for business for the next one to four years. Once you start outlining the long-range damaging potential of $hrubco's "good for business" bullshit, their little eyes start spinning around. And these are people who can think long-range when it comes to their personal financial future.

[glitch]

5. IMO they are fear-based and making decisions based on their emotions

reason doesn't enter into it. So they can be smart in other areas but ultimately national politics comes down to who will protect them best, and the devil they know is a safer bet than anything unknown.

Exposure is what Kerry needs and Bush fears.

Which is why the debates were so effective. :evilgrin:

[newscaster]

6. YOUR DESCRIPTION ANSWERS THE QUESTION

They only SEEM intelligent.

[TahitiNut]

94. Exactly.

It's really too bad that the inventors of the Mood Ring haven't perfected the Crap-o Chapeau - a hat that turns dark based on the fecal content of the wearer's cranium. Then we'd be able to identify the shit-for-brains without actually thinking. :eyes:

[bain_sidhe]

7. flip side of "It's the Supreme Court Stupid"

It's not just that bu**sh** would appoint SC justices that oppose abortion, it's also that he'd appoint justices that will uphold the rights of corporations to f*ck with consumers and workers without being hassled about it.

[rocktivity]

8. Because denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

It's never easy to come to terms with the fact that you've been made a fool of and that your trust was misplaced. And if there's anything harder than admitting that to yourself, it's admitting it to someone else. Some of us can face the truth, forgive ourselves, adjust and move on; some of us interpret it as proof that we're no good.

People are continuing to support Bush as a defense mechanism: by continuing to "like" him, they don't have to confront the things that are obviously wrong with him, which saves them from wondering what's wrong with themselves.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Ladyhawk]

79. I admit I voted for * in 2000. I was wrong and I am going

to make up for it by working on election day to get out the vote! AND I'm never, ever voting Republican again...so there!!!!

[Hello_Kitty]

89. No worries. 2000 and 2004 are different animals. n/t

[Gato Moteado]

9. you're wrong.....

....they ARE all idiots.

i have lost all respect for anyone who votes for, supports, or apoligizes in any way for the current crop of republicans. anyone who allies themselves with human garbage like that deserves no respect.

[2Design]

24. i am feeling that way about anyone at any level who says they are

republican.

Realizing how much of their philosphy is built on giving themselves (congress and president) pay raises and benefits while taking from the poor to pay for their raise, house, flying, bombs, and other perks

Democrats are the only ones who want to do for the good of the whole and they fall short on that a lot of times.

Republicans will never help other people

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

81. I totally agree

It all comes down to greed and control. I don't care how intelligent they are, the Republican party is the party of greed and control. It is always either about more for them, or control over other people.

[2Design]

102. it is about money for them AND control over people's bodies

[Character Assassin]

108. My, that's a, um, novel take on things.

Realizing how much of their philosphy is built on giving themselves (congress and president) pay raises and benefits while taking from the poor to pay for their raise, house, flying, bombs, and other perks

Hmmm... seems to me that what you're describing are the policies, not the tenets of 'their philosophy'. And I don't recall too many pay raise votes in Congress where Democrats didn't go thumbs up as well.

Democrats are the only ones who want to do for the good of the whole and they fall short on that a lot of times.

Doing for the 'good of the whole' is actually impossible, unless an air prohibition bill was ever up for a vote.

[mimitabby]

10. simple. FAITH

if you are taught to BELIEVE... in things you cannot see and cannot
feel, how much easier is it to believe something you see on tv every day. you TRUST them because they are the same every day. they repeat the same bs. it's so much nicer than the grim reality ....

and it's so easy to believe... (since they told you to) that anyone saying anything else is a yellow commie democrat.

imagine how many people were stunned who watched that debate!

and imagine the others who COULD NOT listen to Kerry because they've been taught that he speaks poison and evil... and only heard the nice
things that chimpy said..

those are americans. and there appear to be millions of them.
scary, huh.

[Vickers]

12. Cuz the Baby Jesus told them to (n/t)

[prayin4rain]

39. LOL...haha that's what I think too...pathetic

[sui generis]

13. they're not edumicated on all the issues

I went to dinner with two die-hard yuppie republicans last Friday who were explaining why they want to vote for bush. My partner and I, who have been together for nearly 8 years, explained that we don't have the right to bequeath property to each other in any state in the U.S. or even get a mortgage together or cross the state with our children in Oklahoma, Virginia, and a dozen other states. We lack visitation rights and my third cousin 5 times removed can challenge my last will and testament merely because they are "next of kin", whereas my partner would be escorted out of the house with his clothes on his back and not even invited to the funeral.

Not that I'm going anywhere - ! But under the law, it could easily happen to us and happens every day.

Anyway, they were in shock. I told them that's what this "Federal Marriage Amendment" was pushing, and that there were many unreasonable things in this presidency that made many reasonable people decide to vote their conscience instead of their party this time around. I have no idea which way they're going to vote once it comes time, but I also don't think it had occurred to them that they could vote ABB and still be "a Republican". At least, as friends, that conversation has made them re-think some issues that had never had any focus for them.

[skygazer]

25. I think you've got an excellent point

Virtually every family member and friend I know who is a Bush supporter has no real, clear idea of the truth of the issues. Some of them are one-issue voters who refuse to even look at other issues. Some are simply lazy, preferring to get their information from Fox news or Bush's speeches (which are always full of lies and innaccuracies).

Not one of them has any real knowledge of what is actually going on, though I try to drill it into them.

It's enough to make you chew off your own foot.

[goclark]

72. Racism and Power

A huge percentage want to believe that they are much better than people of color, homosexuals and poor people.

They know that the Republicans will keep them safe from "those people."

[hughee99]

74. A question about the FMA

My brother (a repuke) and I were watching TV the other night when we saw a report about a gay celebrity (Rosie) who was encouraging people to vote for Kerry saying that * has taken away all the gay rights. Now neither one of us is gay, so we weren't really up on the issues, but he argued that, while the FMA would do this, gay rights have not gotten any worse since * became president. We both agreed that the FMA was a wedge-issue election ploy that would never actually be passed (and probably won't even be seriously introduced to congress), but I couldn't think of a single right that gay people had under the Big Dog that they didn't have now. What did I miss?

[sui generis]

75. that's not at all true

1. Bush' administration says that you can't hold a government security clearance if you're gay. In fact, a number of civilian translators (contractors) were fired for no other reason than that they were gay and a security risk.

2. In states like Virginia and Oklahoma none of the "appurtenances" of marriage are honored, including adopted children, insurance policies, bedside visitation, communal property, etc. That means that my adopted children can be taken away from me for driving while gay in Oklahoma. Forever.

3. It's not "gay" rights that are the issue. It's same-sex rights. Furthermore, legislation against discrimination based on sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation protects heterosexuals from getting fired for being straight as much as it protects gays from being fired for being gay.

4. "Human" and "civil" rights are in a steady progression of acceptance. Under Bush, gays have been singled out as immoral and somehow less than American merely because we love someone who is not of the opposite sex. Under Bush, there is no chance that I can pass on my property to my partner without fear of challenge by my family, and even if they don't challenge (and they wouldn't), he would be treated as a legal stranger (as would my adopted children) and forced to pay full gamut of taxes.

5. We live every day being told that we are somehow "monsters" who want to destroy traditional institutions, that we have no family values, that we're indecent, sex addicts, pedophiles, mentally ill, hedonists, and weak. Under Bush in many ways our society has changed, not legislatively, but divisively as those kinds of ideas are perpetuated by the extreme religious right in the republican party. We live with the idea that our property is not ours to dispose of as we wish, with the idea that our families are less equal, and with the idea that we are not as American or patriotic as anyone else. We can't openly serve in the military nor in many police and fire departments across the U.S. In many ways, society treats us as if we were children, and society doesn't have a clue.

Many of us have watched dozens of our friends die horribly over weeks and months and sometimes years before the drug cocktails became available. We have been caregivers in sickness and in health, sometimes when our friends' families wouldn't give them the time of day, and we have been on the front lines of society facing a disease in our community that only added to being despised and reviled, or at best, pitied. We deserve to be treated like the adults we are. We deserve better than George Bush.

[hughee99]

76. Not aware of

the security clearance issue. But on the other issues, I also wasn't aware of any new federal legislation that allows descrimination against gays (issue 3 in your post). It seems like people like * and his backers have always single out gays as immoral, and the rules of inheritance have always descriminated against gays, but we didn't think they were any better 4 years ago. What my brother was really getting at, was what was actually different 4 years ago as opposed to now, that can be tied to anything * has done? Even my brother agreed that same-sex marriages should be legal (he's conservative, but not very religious), but he didn't think * had done much to make things worse, he just hasn't done anything to make things better. I couldn't think of anything specific offhand to refute his argument, and that always bothers me when I argue with him, so I look to the good people on the DU for help. The security clearance issue is something I can point to as a clear example, but if this were it (and I expect it isn't) then perhaps Rosie was overstating things a little.

[sui generis]

93. twelve states have passed constitutional amendments

that also remove recognition of civil unions. That means that even "contractual" agreements aren't recognized if both parties can be construed to be forming an agreement that would create the benefit of a civil union or marriage.

That's pretty serious. The republican party failed last week to bring a Federal Marriage Amendment that specifically included that language. Under the Bush administration they keep trying. Make no mistake we are their second favorite bogeyman after "the terraists", and if they could somehow equate us with terrorism instead of merely the collapse of civilization as we know it, you can bet they would.

This administration has tried and occasionally succeeded in rolling back the clock for us. Sometimes we win the battle too, but the fact that's more important maybe than whether things have gotten worse is that we have been under greater legal assault than ever before. Things are indeed worse for us. If my partner and I actually lived in Oklahoma or Virginia right now, our family would be at risk and theoretically child protective services could remove adopted children from our custody. That's pretty serious.

That's last-stand-at-waco serious as far as I'm concerned. We used to be able to adopt in most states, now the state can dissolve those relationships. I don't believe that you are going to be able to convince your brother if he doesn't want to be convinced, but we live this every day. The argument that "things haven't gotten worse" sounds reasonable on its face but it's just not true, legally or culturally.

Anyway, hope that helps -

[hughee99]

104. Thank you. You've been very helpful n/t

[Zhade]

107. Don't forget they fired Arabic translators for the "crime" of being gay.

As to the OP, I'd say fear (cowardice, really, since you have a better chance of falling in the shower and breaking your neck than you do of dying in a terrorist attack) and/or greed.

It MUST be that for some people, because I've got a former friend at work who is clearly very smart, but has swallowed the Kool-Aid and wants more. He's not just a b*sh supporter, he's a freaking NEOCON. He reads neocon literature and is suddenly very interested in Judaism (yes, I KNOW not all Jews are neocons and vice versa; it just seems neocons are extraordinarily one-sided toward Sharonist Israel) where before he was a lapsed Catholic very much against any form of religion.

It actually frightens me more when smart people fall for the lies and propaganda, because they truly should know better.

[Cat Atomic]

14. The same reason some people always support authoritarians.

Because they're cowards. They think the world is an evil place, and they want a strong father figure to protect them. They'll ignore laws, ideals, and everything else for a little safety from the Devil.

Sadly, it's usually the authoritarian who created the Devil in the first place.

[clydefrand]

15. My friend has this "gut" feeling that Bush is right

Does she read magazines, books about politics, very much of the newspaper? No, it's just a gut feeling. I give up on such people.

[2Design]

16. money in their pockets

[H2O Man]

26. That's usually it.

It ain't mass hypnosis, and ain't no mental block. It's $$$$$.

[T Wolf]

17. seemingly good, intelligent

is the operative term. And my cousin illustrates it perfectly.

He appears to be a nice guy, very sociable and generous. Being very rich, it is easy for him to be generous. He makes his money in the "secondary loan" business. Meaning, he buys loans of people who have trouble paying their debts and then makes sure they never get out of debt by adjusting their terms to pay him money FOREVER.

His justification for the economic system that makes him obscenely wealthy enables him to support bribery (but it is just buying access so he can compete), using his company's funds to pay his gambling debts in Vegas (again, that entertainment loophole), and countless other financial tricks. His previous company went bust, but not before all the insiders got their money out, leaving the investors stuck with worthless stock certificates.

His tunnel-vision to the land of country club wealth leads him to ignore anything that does not support his world view. When I tried to point out *'s grandpa Prescott and his Hitler-linked business dealings, my JEWISH cousin just "could not believe that is true."

The truth is that they ARE scum. They just appear to be "good, intelligent" people.

[stryker18]

18. I've got one friend...

She's an incredible person and a good student (we're both college kids) and she's a Bushie cause "he's pro-life" and "Clinton allowed 9/11 to happen cause he was too busy banging interns to do anything."

I have done my damnedest, but nothing.

[mimitabby]

19. some are intelligent

i work with people with master's degrees in Engineering. but their religions dictate how they think about this stuff..
so they have high IQ's but as others have suggested, they are taking their "walking orders" from a higher authority. they are as good as automatons that way. But speaking to them, they are quite bright in the fields of science and artificial intelligence.
It REALLY is perplexing..
How canyou be SO SMART and SO STUPID!!!

guns!!!
GET SADDAM!!!

barf... the "born again president"
puke.

[mimitabby]

23. oh yeah stryker

the pro life thing. Yep, gw is going to protect ALL them unborn babies.

[Mandate My Ass]

30. My oldest brother, multiple Ivy degrees, near genius IQ

works in the sciences, would give you anything you ask for, however...he thinks Clinton's lie over the blowjob was unforgivable. He refuses to admit Bush may be lying over WMDs or exaggerated the threat. He supports the illegal invasion 1000% even though there are admitted conflicts of interest. Saddam had to go...blah blah blah.

I think it's an authority thing. We both had 12 years of Catholic School and they condition you that if an authority figure tells you something must be done, especially if it involves punishing wrongdoing, you don't question it.

All I know is that we can barely hold a civil conversation anymore.

[Ron Green]

60. He's a case in point that "EQ" is just as important as IQ,

when talking about intelligence. Being able to see the big picture, that our social systems require a sacrifice from everyone, takes more than "Mensa" smarts.

[Mandate My Ass]

66. That's so true, Ron

Like I said, on a personal level he is very kind, but when I remind him every now and then that Saddam is gone and we're still killing innocent Iraqi civilians and that he has repeatedly admitted if the US was ever invaded he would be a freedom fighter (as opposed to an insurgent :eyes: ) he just can't make the leap.


Them = Wrong

Us = Right

*sigh*

[barb162]

55. there are a lot of people like this

more and more every day

[4morewars]

20. They believe.....

that the TV would never lie to them. Like this: "if it's on TV, it MUST be true !!!" No one ever told them that TV is make believe. If one points this out, they become angry, because you are maligning their good friend, or they realize it may be true, but they dont't want it to be true. Either way, their pride causes them to dig in even more, because they are too embarrassed to admit they have been hoodwinked for 20 to 40 years.

Also, the history lite we teach in this country is the reason many of them have no idea about the behavior of empire. There is nothing NEW going on in the bush* administration. To a student of history, the busco plan is really quite predictable.

[johnnie]

21. The few I know....

.....are only voting for bush for "religious" reasons. They are anti-abortion mainly. Most of the people I know are voting for Kerry, so I don't have any real inside look into the reason why people would vote for bush.

[LibDemAlways]

42. Ever ask these "pro-lifers" why

since all three branches of government are in repuke "pro-life" hands, is abortion still legal? Repukes pay plenty of lip service to these single-issue voters, but when push comes to shove, they remain all talk and no action. They aren't interested in having their wives, girlfriends, and daughters end up on the receiving end of a back alley abortion.

[phylny]

47. My GOODNESS, you're right

You're absolutely right. It had never dawned on me before. Why didn't Bush do something about it in his last 3.5 years? Well, I KNOW he hasn't done anything, but you're right. I'll betcha that most politicians would do nothing given the chance, because they know that they'd be booted out.

Thanks for enlightening me today :)

[johnnie]

52. I refuse to call them "pro-lifers"

I have tried to tell them that the abortion issue is the wildcard of all the elections and, as you said, it is all lip service. I think that they figure if they vote for the ones who are supposedly anti-choice, they will get in to heaven.

[niyad]

22. I believe it was mark twain who said that the hallmark of any religion is

the ability to hold two absolutely contradictory thoughts in your head at the same time-- and believe them both. this, I believe, accounts for at least some republicans.

[FatSlob]

27. They say the same things about us.

"Aaron sounds like a smart guy, why the hell does he support Kerry?"

I've heard it before. Our way of thinking is just as foreign to them as their way of thinking is to us.

[Skittles]

31. it is not a good comparison

Democrats do not trash the country. The average republcian voter VOTES AGAINST HIS OWN SELF-INTERESTS.

[FatSlob]

44. That is what we think.

They see their votes as being in their own self interests. We vote Democrat because of self interest. They see Democrats as trashing America. They think differently then we do. Of course, though, we are the ones who are right.

[Skittles]

69. I don't vote Democrat because of self-interest

I see it in the interests of ALL people and because I believe it is best for my country. And I would feel that way if I won the mega millions too. :D

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

82. Me neither

Voting Democrat is a matter of national-interest or even international-interest.

[FatSlob]

100. I'm selfish. I vote based on self interest.

And the interest of my family. I'll never vote based on international interest. My order of importance:

1. Self interest
2. National Interest
999. International interest/global interest.

I will never vote based on globalism.

[Ranec]

29. An undecide voter on ABC said,

(paraphrasing) "I don't like Bush because I think he might take us into more unnecessary wars. I don't like Kerry because he would give other countries a veto on our foreign policy. I think it should be somewhere in the middle."

:grr: It made me want to rip out my own spleen.

[phylny]

51. I feel your pain

You know, I wonder if some of the countries that currently hate our guts are just waiting for regime change. You know, like the hostages in Iran weren't freed until after Reagan was sworn in, to humiliate Carter? Wonder if any of our "former" allies are waiting to chat up Kerry when he wins in November.

I know it's kinda off topic, but it was a stream of consciousness sort of thing.

[in_cog_ni_to]

32. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and RELIGION.

As long as they get their tax cuts and have a holier than though prez, they're happy campers. Sad, but true. :(

[VOX]

33. Because Democrats will raise taxes and give them to welfare cheats!

They will be friendly to terrorists, ban the Bible, and make everyone homosexual. Democrats hate God, and blame America first and for everything. They want to spread Socialism, Marxism, Leninism and Communism. They want godless public schools to continue pounding their propaganda into the heads of innocent litle children. They want to murder the unborn. Finally, they have **tails**.

In short, whatever a Republican (be they wealthy, or working-class whites, or religious, etc.) is afraid of, the Democrats have been made to be the "source" of that fear.

[FearofFutility]

34. I read an article

in the New York Times Magazine this summer that boiled it all down to the amygdala. The amygdala is a part of the brain responsible for producing and responding to non-verbal signs of anger, avoidance, defensiveness, and fear. A study was done that showed when a self-described conservatives and liberals were shown scenes of war and such, there was less stimulation of the amygdala in the conservatives. In other words, they were less affected by disturbing images than the liberal. The study went on to say in order for one to make a rational, intelligent decision, emotions must play a part. My take...they're uncaring, unfeeling robots.

[It was not a pretzel]

35. Plain and simple Ignorance

of the issues.

Those that understand the various issues and still vote Bush are just plain selfish and bad.

[Mz Pip]

37. Force of habit.

Most of my relatives are Republicans. They are really dear people and they are not crazy but they have been voting Republican since the dawn of time. They still probably believe that the Republican Party is the party of fiscal responsibility, small government and personal accountability.

I have a hard time discussing politics with them. We sort of just don't go there.

MzPip
:dem:

[smirkymonkey]

38. Because they don't choose with their minds, they choose

with their emotions. Even if they seem "good" on the outside, many people are enslaved by their basest emotions and prejudices. They may use their "brains" to justify their choice, but their decisions are rarely made by using pure logic.

Even seemingly kind, intelligent people can be ruled by ideology, prejudice and intolerance and greed. The intelligent know how to cover it up, but at heart they are no difference than the rabid masses that vote from a place of fear, anger and hatred.

[kodi]

40. "you can tell a man's politics by where he gets his cornpone" Twain

few willingly vote against their economic interests, so the seduction of regular folk to the GOP is either by hoodwinking them that they will be better off with the republicans, or by a direct appeal to economic sacrifice for a greater good ( "values" issues, also known as "your Jesus or your money.")

[Generator]

41. Sorry but I'm so sick to death of this question

I'm seeing a day when we no longer have to ask questions about this worthless man.

But just to answer, they aren't intelligent, and if they are they are then they are simply greedy and/or ideologues or filled with fear. That's it. Don't make it more than it is. They are not intelligent. Intelligence requires critical thought and examining the truth.

The intelligent ones are near to evil. Like Frank Lutz. They don't believe in democracy they believe in fascism, and maybe they aren't really smart because they don't even realize they are near to evil.

[Cats Against Frist]

90. That is EXACTLY what I was going to say

It's because "decent" and "intelligent" are two separate traits, and since I'm pretty sure that most Republicans are either mean or dumb, it's logical that if they're dumb, they could be decent, and if they're intelligent, they could be mean.

The two traits together in one Republican, however, I've rarely seen -- and IF I have, the person is a totally whacked-out fundie -- which means they're an idiot anyway, but they might be intelligent at like business investing or something -- and both the "decent" and "intelligent" actually register in a very shallow, micro-world-view kind of way.

And these people that are supposedly "decent," maybe aren't so "decent." Take my mother, whom I love immensely, and has changed a lot in the last several years. When I was younger, though, my mom was a Girl Scout leader, hard worker, took good care of us, was kind to most people -- even quite "sentimental," meaning that sad stories would touch her, and whatnot. She has always been faithful to my dad, she's fairly intelligent, helps out in the community.

But she used to HATE black people. Bigoted as fuck. And later, when gays became an issue, she hated them for a while, too.

Then, I finally got old enough to "lay it down" for her, and explain how shit really is, and she saw the light. But even now, when she's been around some of her "decent" (racist, bigoted) friends, I can tell that she's confused, a little. But no one would have ever said my mother was not decent, had they not known. And this woman was a CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRAT -- and would probably rather die than vote Republican, because she's very pro-union, and pro working class, and is smart enough to know that the GOP wants to fleece and enslave the population -- and she'll tell you as much.

But for a long time, her "social agenda" was GOP, all the way -- mean-spirited, afraid, bigoted, etc. -- I certainly wouldn't have called her "decent" ten years ago. But a couple of things happened.

They started doing some low-income stuff at her work, where a lot of young, black women (this is a rural county) would come in and she'd have to teach them how to like bake and shit, and balance their checkbooks, fill out job forms, whatever. She loved them, and thought they were really cool, and saw how they were struggling, dicked over by men, etc. (my mother believes that women are superior to men, and that men should have to beg for sex -- anyway..:))

I posted not too long ago about how she saw a show on Discovery Health or something about two gay men adopting a baby. While my dad was still on the fence, my mom called me after the show, totally weepy, and said "Oh, they were so excited, and they loved that baby so much. I know that they'll treat that kid better than a lot of straight parents treat their kids."

So, hence, after my mother started to "humanize" people, she became a lot less bigoted.

Now the significant thing about all this, is that most of her sisters, and a lot of her friends ALL SWITCHED to the GOP, throughout the 80s and 90s -- they were "Butternut" Democrats, or whatever -- the former Dixiecrats, which would explain the racism. But, since she had me, one of only TWO people in my family to actually leave rural Illinois, she stuck with the Dems, instead of switching over. I gave her a conscience -- a real one -- not just her "white" conscience.

Now, she's fully in the camp, and dare I say -- a liberal Democrat -- she's figured out that the GOP are twisting the teachings of Jesus, to reel in voters. And she's PRO LIFE, oddly.

My mother's probably a good case study for Democrats to see how they kept conservative, rural, pro-life voters. I would be happy to say that it was my influence. She trusts me and admires me, and thinks I'm smart, even though sometimes she thinks that I'm a little condescending to the small town she lives in, and the people in it.

Wow, this post wasn't supposed to get this long. Point was:

You can be decent and unintelligent/ignorant, you can be intelligent and ignorant, and you can be intelligent and mean.

[atommom]

43. Most of my family is staunchly Republican. For most of them, it's

because of religion. Their churches stress conservative values, and make "liberals" sound like the root of all evil. Many of their churches are becoming quite active in politics. In addition, they spend all their time with like-minded people, and get their news only from sources that won't challenge their views. (If the "news" turns out to be fake, they'll never know, or never acknowledge it. Those damn liberals just have it in for poor Rush.)

The thing that makes me want to bang my head against the wall is that they don't see that they're being had. All the moral outrage over the social issues like gay marriage is just being used to get them to the polls to elect Rs who will do everything in their power to screw over the middle class that elected them.

I wish I could make them all read What's the Matter with Kansas? :eyes:

[forgethell]

56. One thing that has always puzzled me

is why do we Dems keep saying that Rs are ignoring the issues when they concentrate on gay marriage, abortion, etc. instead of economic policy or the War? If these things are NOT issues, why do we push them? Duh! Maybe it's because they are issues to us as well as the Rs. Maybe they have caught on to that. Maybe we should consider which issues are the most important to us and stop trying to tell the other party what their issues should be. Then maybe we would understand them better, and win elections more often.

I'm not, in this venue, trying to say what issues ARE important to us, but if we are not willing to drop an issue from our agenda, why do we think they would be willing to do so at our demand?

[atommom]

71. I don't really expect them to drop those social issues. But it bothers

me that they spend so much time working up the voters' moral outrage to get votes for Rs, when most of those voters will actually be hurt economically by the policies the Rs put in place. What a lot of misplaced anger and energy....

[forgethell]

91. Yet the voters

consider these issues important. After all "man does not live by bread alone". Economic issues are not the only issues. Perhaps they are willing to pay an economic price.

But you seem to miss my point, and did not really answer the question that I was asking. Why don't we stop pushing the social issues, and concentrate on economics, if that is what is important to us?? Maybe we are being hurt economically.

[atommom]

98. Which social issues are you thinking of? Separation of church

and state? Gay marriage? Most of the other social issues I can think of overlap with economics ... education, social spending programs, reproductive rights, etc. In fact, the social issues I most care about are those that are also economic issues. Once again, I haven't really answered your question, but you've given us all something to think about...

[forgethell]

101. Well, that's the thing

isn't it. Lot's of people would vote with us on taxes, social security, health care, etc., but don't like abortion, affirmative action, gay marriage, etc. some maybe like one or two, but not the others.

Unlike a lot of people on this board, I am not overly optimistic about this election, although I am hopeful. But if the Democrats lose, it will be because they pissed off their supporters on a social issue.

As a rule of thumb, I would say that anything we have to get through the judicial process rather than the political process if a social issue that will hurt us at the polls. Maybe they are important enough to go that way, maybe not.

[Walt Starr]

45. I'm sorry, but I honestly do not consider any Bush supporter to be "good"

In my opinion, if you support Bush, you are pure evil.

[Zero Gravitas]

46. most moderate, thoughtful Republicans

have already turned their back on Bush, the ones that are left are the stupid, uninformed and fanatics. Unfortunately there are lots of stupid and/or uninformed people out there.

[loudestchick]

48. It's about single issue voting.

1. Must save fetuses--they honestly belive that if abortion is illegal there will never be another abortion...Paris Hilton could still fly to Geneva and get one...

2. I make my money and I should get to keep it--the rest of you slackers are on your own...yep, buck up 6 yr old Janie, I know your mom has MS but...

3. Don't try to take my gun--I just may need to protect my home from some hopped-up nigger with my fully automatic assault rifle

4. W is a man of faith--The Rapture is coming soon, we don't need to worry about the deficit or global warming or lead/mercury in our water or future alliances...don't you see, after the rapture only scum like the democrats and tree huggers will be left behind

[Blackrain]

49. The Republican party is all about White Power

It's no secret that the Republican party is all about white power. That's why everything they do revolvs around Race based politics. Example, the border issue,affirmative action,pre-emptive wars against non-white countries.

However, I think it's a subconscience reaction to the world around them. Republicans pray on the fears of good white americans, and allways make it seem like blacks are out to take their jobs, mexicans are here to lower wages,muslims hate our freedoms. This country is only 12% black. Out of 12% of the black population about 2% of them go to college. So we're talking about a very small number of black students in colleges when they're compared to white students. So my point is Republicans are all about white power, keeping every down beneath them. That's why skinheads,and right wing extremist groups allways vote Republican.

[coalition_unwilling]

50. One of my former friends (we're no longer on speaking terms)

bought into the whole Nietzchean, Straussian bs about "creative destruction". I told him that the primary casualties in post-Cold War conflicts have been and will continue to be civilians and his response was "If you want to make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs."

At that point, I realized that there was no reasoning with him. A person in the anti-war movement subsequently commented that there are two types of people in this world: babykillers and non-babykillers, and my ex-friend clearly fell into the former group. Ironically, he has now had his own child, so dunno if his opinions have changed.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. Ironic that he quotes Lenin

:-)

(the line about breaking eggs)

[wildeyed]

53. I hear ya.

I am feeling really down about this topic today.

I have been talking to several friends who are Bush supporters about the war in Iraq. I consider the war immoral and wrong. I do not understand how, at this point in the game, anyone could support the war or Bush.

So I am talking to my friend. And she will. not. listen. to. facts. She reads some right wing religious magazine that is inferring that al-qaeda and Saddam were connected. So I show her an article from CNN with Colin Powell saying there is no proof of a connections and she will not consider it. She keeps saying, well Saddam is a bad man. I am saying, sure, but that doesn't mean it was in the best interest of our country or the world to go after him. And I show her articles about how tenuous our hold on Iraq is right now, about all the civilian casualties. And she, a Christian I might add, will not read them.

Then she says, well I just LIKE Bush better, he is so nice at all his rallies. And I say, well yeah, you have to sign a loyalty oath to get in. I would be nice, too, if no one ever challenged me or criticized me. At this point she gave me a look of deep dislike.

Issue by issue, she is liberal on everything except abortion. Pro-environment, cares about the poor, and although I don't think she actually supports gay marriage, she does not support a constitutional ban. Yet she will vote for Bush. I am thinking she needs to go to a deprogramming camp or something.

She is not my only friend who is like this. And I am in a quandary. I feel that, morally, I am obligated to speak against this war. But I don't feel that I am really making any progress with these people. Also, it is negatively affecting my relationships, which makes me sad.

[barb162]

54. many reasons

some people are very anti-abortion
some are very pro gun rights
some are anti-black
some don't read papers or listen to the news so they have no clue about Bush
some rich ones just love the Bush tax cuts for the rich

on and on

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. Two possibilities:

1. greedy, can't see beyond what they think are their own interests

2. ill-informed. Years of schooling do not necessarily equal wisdom if those years of "education" were in business, law, engineering, or any other field that take a "job skills" approach.

[rinsd]

58. Many things....

Just like with any candidate...you have single issue voters, you have lifelong straight ticket republicans, you have the nutjobs, you have the superficial supporters(ie: I'd like to have a beer with him, seems like regular folk etc), poeple have many reasons for their candidates. Bush really isn't all that different.

[Tafiti]

59. Because it's comfortable and cozy...

...to have such an uncomplicated worldview, which is essentially fallcious. That's my conclusion. In my experience, conservatives are incredulous to hear about some of the things the U.S. does, with respect to foreign policy, as well as domestic issues. Let's not even get started on the practically divine mandate capitalism enjoys in our society.
One of my favorite authors came up with an equation, which goes something like this:

HAPPINESS EQUALS ONE OVER AWARENESS.

The more you know, the smaller your "happiness quotient" becomes. Let's be hoenst, it can get pretty depressing sometimes when confronted with so much ignorance!

[bobbieinok]

78. great formula

[mitchum]

61. I think the answer lies in "seemingly"...

because only a fool or a fascist could support that sonofabitch

[ProfessorGAC]

62. The Part I Would Argue. . .

. . .would be the intelligent part. Remember 50% of everyone has an IQ of less than 100 (not the 100 normally quoted). The average is a little higher than 100, since someone COULD have an IQ of 250, but nobody could have an IQ of -50. (Except maybe Li'l Georgie.)

Not being stupid is NOT the same as being smart. So, people with college degrees, but didn't really learn all that much, and never really learned to think independently or critically, could appear to be good, intelligent people.

Well, they may be good folks, but they're really not that smart. They get trapped into selfish motivations, unable to see the big picture. Or, they get pinned into one issue things, and that issue clouds any ability, however limited or great, to see that bigger view.

Lastly, people who don't see the big picture are simply more willing to see things black and white. Bushbots like his simplicity and binary thought. "You're either with us or against us!" They say "Yeah!". I would ask "Why are they against us?" & "What can we do about that?"

So, i guess i would quibble that these people aren't as smart as you think they are. They aren't idiots! But, they aren't all that smart either.
The Professor

[kwyjibo]

64. my dad, an ENVIRONMENTAL GEOLOGIST, supports Bush. It's so confusing.

I know he knows about Bush's horrible environmental record, but I don't think he's considering the future of the Earth, especially beyond his or my generation. In fact, I occasionally get the feeling that he's of the opinion that (seriously) the human race is going to wipe itself out in the not too distant future. He keeps saying that my safety is the most important thing to him, that's why he's voting for someone who will "protect" me and spend more money on weapons. Also, he likes tax cuts and doesn't think his hard earned money should go to help the bums in the country that just want a hand out.

I tried to explain to him that there are hard working people who really do need help, and they don't want a hand out, but they need some kind of assistance otherwise they'll be living on the streets and asking him for spare change. Also, he doesn't understand the idea that if we attack other countries, the rest of the world will hate us, and that makes us less safe.

[ohio_dem_52186]

109. Here is something for him on tax cuts:

If he is thinking he is getting his share of the tax cut, have him check out the Congressional Budgetary Report on Bushes tax cuts. It was done by a Republican led Senate Commitee:

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/57xx/doc5746/Report.pdf

Unless he makes a bunch more that I think he does, he's getting the shaft like the rest of us...

I made up a tax cut calculator program that runs though an estimate based on the data in the report:

http://getthefacts.atspace.com/

[MISSDem]

65. In my neck of the woods (Mississippi)

it's racism.

[leftofthedial]

67. "seemingly" is the operative word n/t

[blindpig]

68. greed, religion, race, guns

that sums it up.
My oldest bud(35 years)is in the greed faction(it's his money!)and refuses to vote demo though even he's admitted that he's unable to vote for smirk. The fuckhead really cares about the environment, he makes me crazy.

[linazelle]

70. I HAVE talked to many...

All I got were sound bytes about "propoganda" from Michael Moore, the denial of global warming, fervent "support our troops" messages...and the tax thing. Of all the issues, it's taxes that is gaining the most momentum with BushCo.

These people really think Bush is giving them their money back even though the amount is minute. They are unable to see how they are eroding the infrastructure of the government.

There's also fear connected to the tax thing--a subliminal message that taxes pay for social programs and most of all, these people abhor social programs. I don't believe all social programs are good, and I don't always agree with how my tax dollars are spent either.

Somehow, Kerry has to cut through this complex issue and simplify it so that people understand what he plans to do with our money in contrast to what Bush has already done.

[Disturbed]

73. Intelligence and Mindset.

No matter how intelligent a person is their mindset determines how they view issues. There is obviously no single answer to why people are to the right,left, middle on various issues. There are also different types of intgelligence. Some "facts" and "truths" are often in the mind of the beholder. It seems to me that people view everything on their mindset. They can make whatever they view fit into that mindset.

[leftofthedial]

77. the three or four intelligent bushies I know

all have a serious lack of empathy.

They are oblivious to any kind of suffering or hardship suffered by anyone not in their immediate sphere--them or their family or close friends.

This makes any concept of social justice imposible for them to grasp.

Each of them also is a single-issue zealot. One is a gun-nut totalitarian. He would vote for a Pol Pot-Charles Manson ticket if the NRA endorsed them. Another is an anti-choice zealot for whom there is no issue but abortion. Most of his "life" is spent picketing clinics and doctor's homes. Another claims to be anti-tax, though he is ignorant and intractable in his irrational belief that he is better off with any Republican rather than a "tax-and-spend" Democrat.

[the_outsider]

80. Money, faith, fear, masculinity, apathy

Usually it's one of the above or a combination thereof. These can be de-constructed at multiple levels. You can try to convince them the idea itself is bad in principle or you can try to prove that the idea
is probably ok but republicans are not better than democrats in its execution. Effectiveness of the strategy depends on where you stand and where they stand on the issue. Since their beliefs are mostly based on ignorance, if they are truly intelligent and if they care enough and if you are patient and persuasive enough, you can break through. Faith and apathy are usually the hardest to break through.

[KellyPaDem]

83. 3 Reasons

First... Religion. These people vote for George Bush because they believe that he will provide a direct link to "the right God" in the White House. They support religion in schools, government, and any other place of influence. They believe that any abortion is a sin and that it is perfectly acceptable to bomb abortion clinics. This group loves Bush's "God Bless America" speeches; and won't be happy until a cross is erected over the White House and Jesus becomes the Press Secretary.

Second... Republican's. These people will vote Republican if Bush stands up naked in the Oval Office and sings "Yellow polka-dot bikini" while declaring war on Canada. Nothing any Republican says will turn them off. They masturbate to Bob Novak, shop at the Tucker Carlson Bow-tie store, and BELIEVE Fox News. Also, they think that Strom Thurman, Richard Nixon, and Rush (include any other right wing nut case)are great Americans. The requirement to be a true member of this group is that you have to ALWAYS hang the American Flag(more than one is preferred) on your house, you must wear a flag pin or shirt at all times, and it never hurts to listen to country music.

Three... Scared. These people believe that George W. is the only person alive that can keep us safe. They listen to clips on news shows on CNN, MSNBC, and local news and believe Cheney when he says that terrorist love Kerry and that if you choice the wrong person we will be hit again (making it your fault for voting wrong). They believe that because you fight a war "over there" that means that they can't possible launch an attack here. Generally these people also live in states where terrorism is VERY unlikely. They are also less likely to read newspapers and are more likely to believe that Saddam is behind 9/11.

[VolcanoJen]

84. Welcome to Democratic Underground!

DU Welcomes KellyPaDem!!!!
:toast: :bounce: :bounce: :toast: :toast: :bounce: :toast: :toast: :bounce: :bounce: :toast:

[KellyPaDem]

85. Thank You

Honored and happy to be here !!!!

[VolcanoJen]

86. It is my distinct pleasure to welcome you.

That was onehelluva first post.

:toast:

[LynnTheDem]

87. Because "seemingly" aside, they are NOT intelligent people.

If you support bush, you're either filthy rich...not paying attention...wanting to bring the USA to it's knees...or an idiot. Or any combination thereof.

[Hello_Kitty]

88. I know good people who do

But I can't think of anyone intelligent. Not dumb necessarily, but no one who strikes me as well informed or a critical thinker.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

92. I think you hit the nail on the head.

It's all about critical thinking skills. Our education system is terrible at teaching critical thinking skills. I think that's also the answer to Kayell's question in this forum: Why are we still so gullible and ready to buy media spin?

[kayell]

96. I think the education system is a big part of both

We are taught throughout K-12 to accept authority as the final answer. Questioning of the teacher is seen as rebellion rather than as information seeking. We are taught this in so many other ways too, church with questioning of the ulimate authority being blasphemy.

We have also been trained from children to believe that our country is the most honest, true and brave, the only truly free country in the world, with the most honest and free press in the world. We have been "brainwashed".

The big question is how to correct the situation, for surely if we do not, we will be constantly face the same potential for accepting a dictatorship that we face with *.

[neebob]

95. The main reason I think

is because he says things they want to believe and they don't really think about it, which makes them not really very intelligent as LynnTheDem said.

Otherwise, I don't know. I recently found out one of my co-workers is a Bush supporter when I saw he had a "Veterans for Bush" sticker on his SUV. Perhaps I'll get around to asking him. Right now I'm too busy questioning his intelligence.

[mvd]

97. Misinformation is one thing

The Repukes and the media are great at giving that. Even an intelligent person can be misled if they don't get enough of both sides of a story.

[mmonk]

99. Greed, ignorance (of fact), or fear

[marlakay]

103. Vote one issue only

abortion, guns, money!

[Heyo]

105. The way I see it...

"Serious Q: Why do some seemingly good, intelligent people support Bush?"

A. It's just a difference of opinions, that's all. Hate to over simplify, but that's the way I see it.

I don't think it's a healthy way of thinking to think that people who disagree with one's particular ideology are ignorant or there's something wrong with them. The only possible explanation for that would be a belief that you and others like you are the smartest people in the world and have it all figured out, and if only everyone else would see it your way everything would be fine.

I have news for you, neither the Repubs nor Dems have it all figured out yet.

I have things I agree with conservatives on, things I agree with liberals on. In neither case do I hold the opinion that those who hold different opinions must be retarded or something. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and most people of reasonable intelligence have good reasons for the opinions they have.

For every far out religious nut living in a mountain cabin clutching a bible in one hand and a rifle in another waiting for "red dawn" to arrive, there is an out-there irrational lefty with equal fervor somewhere else.

Call me crazy but, moderation is the key. Where there is aboslutel extremism, people lose their heads.. both literally and figuratively, as we have seen recently.

But hey, it's just my opinion...

:toast: all

Heyo

[DixieDem]

106. I can answer this from my "Southern" experience....

I know so many people that are dem's on every single issue except one... abortion.

I know, I know... they ARE single issue voters. I've tried my best to convince them otherwise. But, that one issue is still a biggie here in the South!

[ohio_dem_52186]

111. That is a shame...

Because this is one of the issues that won't get decided in the near future. It is an important moral question, but it is right now not important enough for anybody to see through to an end.

It is a really tough question too.

[ohio_dem_52186]

110. My vote is for a denial/fear combo

I think, for one, people can't bring themselves to beleive the facts about Bush. It would mean that our country has done something quite terrible in invading Iraq. It is easier to not think about it and commit to "supporting our troops" by allowing them to get killed by the day.

I, like a lot of people, beleived a lot of the B.S. about Iraq's WMD. I didn't go as far as supporting the war, but thought Saddam had it coming. Now, it turns out it was all a mirage and we've lost credibility.

Then of course there is fear...