I'm going to be VERY direct

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Where does the Bible forbid abortion? Book, chapter & verse, please. No other kind of response will be considered.

I do know there's an stipulation of MONETARY DAMAGES for willfully causing a miscarriage AGAINST THE MOTHER'S WILL. Doesn't look THAT serious there.

Book. Chapter. Verse. Ball's on your court.

[geek tragedy]

1. To play Devil's Advocate, the language you are looking for is

"Thou shalt not kill."

The issue revolves over the definition of human life.

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. Does that include the death penalty?

or killing innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan?

[geek tragedy]

5. I can take the Devil's Advocate stuff only so far.

I'll let real right-to-lifers defend their stand.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

7. yes it does includes from conception to natural death....imho

[On the Road]

17. I Don't Know When 1st C Jews Thought Life Begins

but in 19th century America, abortion was considered to be OK before the baby "quickened in the womb." This was somewhere in the second trimester.

I think it's reasonable to use the same principle modified by our better understanding of biology. The beginning of life should be thought of in the same terms as the end of life, namely functioning of the brain. Meaning that a fertilized egg is not human life. Electrical activity in the brain, as I understand it, begins about the tenth week, so it should never be judged before then. It could be judged somewhat later -- even people in a vegetative state have electrical activity.

[MaryH]

33. I don't think the ancients

thought the baby had a soul until it was 1 month old. This may be because so many infants died pretty quickly after birth.

[RapidCreek]

79. Where does it say anything about the joining of two gametes

constituting human life in the bible?

Chapter and verse please.

RC

[cidliz2004]

93. It doesn't

I have gotten into this "discussion" many times. There isn't anywhere in the Bible where it says that life begins before birth.
God knows us from the "womb", that is said in the Bible, but he knows every plant cell from conception as well.

I personally have never heard anybody come up with the facts that you are asking for. I don't believe that they exist. My son also believes that there is nothing in the Bible that condemns abortion, he was taught this in his church.

[jwirr]

76. It should but to the right wing

it doesn't.

[Bo]

94. Yes

[jrthin]

8. If this language holds true, then

the death penalty and wars would be out of the question. Let's be consistant or at least use or reasoning. Opps, sorry, these are christians. No offense.

[LanternWaste]

23. I'm not sure

I'm not sure the sixth commandment 'You shall not murder' (Ex 20:13, Dt 5:17) which is restated in the New Testament (Mt 19:18; Rom 13: 9) is a blanket prohibition of all killing. It is apparent from texts which expound it (Ex 21:12-14; Lv 24:17-21; Nu 35:16-31; Dt 19:4-13) that the biblical meaning of the word translated 'murder' (Hb- ratsach, Gk- phoneuo) is the 'premeditated and intentional killing of an innocent human being' (Clark, Translational Critiques). I'm not sure if what we call manslaughter, is covered by the commandment, or the killing of guilty as opposed to innocent human beings. Old Testament Law recognized three situations in which killing was justified: Holy War (Dt 20:10-18), capital punishment (over 20 offenses) and self-defense (Ex 22: 2,3). By contrast the shedding of innocent blood is universally condemned throughout Scripture (Ex 23: 7).

Now, I'm not saying I either agree or disagree with what you posted, only that I'm illustrating another perspective as written by Clark in his book, 'Translational Critiques'.

Edited because scripture notations in parenthetical brackets sometimes make smilies...lol)

[Dorian Gray]

28. You're forgetting one...

If God told one to kill, they were morally correct in doing so.

There are numerous examples throughout the OT. (And I'm too lazy to look them up chapter and verse.)

Regarding abortion, many believe that it is murder. Therefore, the "Thou Shall Not Kill" implores people not to abort.

Not saying it's my opinion, but I don't think it goes much beyond that. There are no hidden passages that specifically address abortion.

[Lerkfish]

75. Samuel was ordered to kill captives by God in the OT.

if you want to get biblical, the Lord in the OT orders many battles and (ultimately) deaths.
The first king of Isreal was supposed to take a city, and destroy all its cattle and people. He didn't, and the prophet Samuel had to kill them all himself. (to the best of my recollection)

[atreides1]

9. Actually

The true translation is "Thou shalt not murder", and since the Old Testament was written by and for the people of Israel, we would have to abide by the Jewish definition of human life.

Just playing the Devil's Advocate to the Devil's Advocate.

[geek tragedy]

10. I'm actually an agnostic,

so I could give a rip what the Bible or the Devil say!:beer:

[politicat]

20. Check your translations.

The hebrew word is ratsach. It means something far closer to the premeditated murder of a human being who is not an enemy, condemned to death for crime or sin, and a full member of the society. Kill is the KJV version in English. The Latin Vulgate is "non occides."

Occidio is slaughter, destruction, extermination or "to plague to death". Again, it's really hard to pull a pre-birth intent out of the Latin.

The bible has no information or guidance on when human life begins. At the time it was written, the prevailing view is that sperm contained thousands and tiny babies and women were totally passive in the development of the child. Since we know that's wrong....

Just because it's in the bible doesn't mean it's right... the bible says slavery is right, women should be excluded while menstruation, and that everyone needs to keep goats. Rules for desert nomads 3,000 years ago just don't apply that well now.

Pcat

[Bandit]

27. Your post reminded me of this letter to Bush*

Dear President Bush,
> >
> > Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I
> > have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would
> > propose and
> > support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage.
> >
> > As you said "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a
> > woman." I
> > try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone
>
> > tries
> > to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them
> > that
> > Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of
> > debate.
> >
> > I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements
>
> > of
> > God's Laws and how to follow them.
> >
> > 1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and
> > female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend
>
> > of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can
>you
> > clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
> >
> > 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
> > Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
> > price for her?
> >
> > 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
>her
> > period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do
>
> > I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
> >
> > 4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
> > pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors.
> > They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
> >
> > 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
> > 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
>to
> > kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
> >
> > 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
> > abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
> > homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees'
>of abomination?
> > Oh, sorry. IS there degrees ...
> >
> > 7. Lev.21:20 states that I may ! not approach the altar of God if I
> > have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
>glasses. Does
> > my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
> >
> > 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
> > around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by
>Lev.19:27.
> > How should they die?
> >
> > 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
> > me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
> >
> > 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two
> > different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
>garments made of
> > two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends
>to
> > curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all
>the
> > trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?
>Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't
> > we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with
>
> > people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
> >
> > I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy
> > considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can
>help.
> >
> > Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
> > unchanging.
> >
> > In Jesus name,

There appear to be lots of reasons to kill people, so I do question the Thou shall not kill quote from God.

[Carson]

50. Some intruction was brought through to the New Testament,

others were left behind in the "Old Law".

Those quotes from Leviticus are all OT Law. None is applicable to today's Christians.

[Carson]

49. Of course you are speaking of the Old Testament

when you refer to menstruating women and goats. Christians don't practice Old Testament religion.

[Bandit]

61. Christians don't practice Old Testament religion.

Where does the Ten Commandments come from? I seem to recall "Christians" trying to force those into every government building and property possible. In fact didn't the supreme court just refuse to hear a case where a "Christian" Judge disobeyed federal law and refused to take down his Ten Commandments from his Courtroom?

[Carson]

65. Some, not all, of the Ten Commandments

was reiterated in the NT. The veneration of the Sabbath Day was left out. Jesus spoke in Matthew 19:16-19, when asked which commandments should be followed:

"...Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother, and Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

Again, it's a difference between the Old and New Law. Too many people are ignorant of the difference.

As for the posting of the Ten Commandments, I have no idea why Christians want to post them everywhere. Especially with the Old Testament version.

[lgardengate]

67. Partly right...Christians believe the old testament is Gods Word...

Also. They believe it all.

[jwirr]

78. Believing it all and

believing it applies today are two different things.

[Carson]

89. Exactly.

Christians believe the OT as a prophecy/precursor to the coming of the Christ. Once he came, the Old Law was done away with.

[DemoTex]

37. GOP definition of the sanctity of human life:

The sanctity of human life begins at conception and ends at birth. It begins again after the first $1-million is made. Between birth and that first million, you are on your own. Good luck.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

95. A mass of tissue?

[serryjw]

2. Who gives a SH*IT!

I don't run this country by ANYONE'S BIBLE!

[benburch]

3. That's cuz it isn't there.

They justify their rage against abortion by citing "Thou shalt not kill." and "Suffer the little children to come unto me."

None of which was about abortion, but my current thesis is that fundementalist christianity in the USA == situational theology; They find a way to take scripture out of context to support whatever it is that they want to believe.

[rsmith6621]

11. Scripture Says also....

Not only does it say in the 10 Comandments.....Thou shalt not KILL


it supports the principle of that life begins at conception by saying......there is life in the blood(lev 17:11)......that is a scientific fact that blood begins to form at conception.

I personally dont support abortion but I do support what God has given each of us....that being FREE WILL.

[politicat]

22. Actually, there's no "life in blood"...

As it happens, blood cells don't carry DNA. They're the only ones that don't. (We do DNA analysis on blood from other cells in the fluid.)

And Again, it's been 3000 years since that was written. We don't use Hippocrites and Galen as standard medical tests, we don't use Ptolemy for Astronomy, and we don't use Aristotle to understand the natural world.... Why should we use 3000 year old mythos for our governing principles? Have we not grown up and progressed?

Pcat

[AngryAmish]

31. Define blood?

RBC have no dna, white cells do. I am really pedantic.

[Character Assassin]

68. Apples and oranges

Why should we use 3000 year old mythos for our governing principles? Have we not grown up and progressed?

So we've progressed to the grown up point where murder is OK and stealing, lying, etc... are just fine? You may want to be more exact in your questions.

Regardless of the time in history, there are certain aspects of the human character that remain constant.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

97. Every Sperm is Sacred

Every Sperm is Sacred

There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed,
But,
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on.
You're a Catholic the moment Dad came,
Because...

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Children: Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Little Girl: Let the heathens spill theirs,
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Children: Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Mother: Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Men on toilets: Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
Women: If a sperm is wasted,
Children: God gets quite irate.

Priest: Every sperm is sacred.
Bride and Groom: Every sperm is good.
Nannies: Every sperm is needed
Babies: In your neighbourhood!

Everyone: Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
Undertakers: God needs everybody's.
Male mourner: Mine!
Female mourner: And mine!
Corpse: And mine!

Nuns: Let the Pagans spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
Statues: God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Everyone: Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaate!

Thanks, Monty Python!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

29. "that is a scientific fact that blood begins to form at conception."

HAH! Your Embriology is SO wrong it isn't even funny!

[drdigi420]

64. the 'scripture' is a fantasy novel, not a historical record

please stop treating it as if it is a factual document

[MsUnderstood]

6. Passage on Onan is the one

Where he spilt his seed into the sand and was smote by god. . .it can be interchanged for masturbation on killing your offspring or not marrying your dead brother's wife.

You pick.

[On the Road]

12. Onan Didn't Fulfill His Brotherly Duty

to impregnate his deceased brother's wife. "Spilling his seed on the ground" is only the means that Onan avoided it. From the situation, it is more likely that he practiced coitus interruptus rather than masturbation.

And the fact that "spilling his seed" is mentioned in passing without comment actually suggests that the sexual practice itself was not a moral issue.

JMO

[MsUnderstood]

14. I agree

I agree the passage should not be interpreted as against abortion or masturbation. Just pointing out that it IS used against both of these "Sins".

[Cleita]

21. Although the Catholic church likes to give the Onan story as

the reason God forbids birth control, they obscure the point that the real reason he was required to take his brother's wife as his wife was because she hadn't born an heir to his brother's wealth. It was Onan's duty to provide an heir in the case of his brother's premature demise. By practising birth control, he incurred the anger of God because his greed caused him to disobey the laws that were believed to come from God.

You see if there was no heir the wealth would stay with him and his other children. God punished him for disobedience to his law, not because he spilled his seed.

[Raster]

84. So why did gawd have to order Onan to impregnate his brother's wife?

I mean afer all, gawd is gawd. Couldn't he/she/it just done it him/her/itself and saved everyone the grief? He/She/It supposedly did it with that "virgin birth" thing.

[On the Road]

13. I Believe the Apocolypse of Peter

describes the sufferings in hell of those who had abortions. Of course, this book is not in the Bible.

[trotsky]

15. It doesn't, of course. And in fact, Mosaic Law is pretty clear that...

a fetus does NOT have the same rights/value as a person.

In Exodus 21, it is spelling out various crimes and their punishments. Verse 22 talks about two men fighting who injure a pregnant woman and cause her to miscarriage. If the woman survives, the attacker only has to pay a fine to her husband. But if the woman dies, the attacker is put to death.

Clearly a difference.

[arcane1]

16. in some cases the Bible advocates abortion

Hosea 13:16 comes to mind:

Samaria will be held guilty,
For she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword,
Their little ones will be dashed in pieces,
And their pregnant women will be ripped open.


:puke::puke::puke:

[Ravenseye]

35. Anytime someone talks about the Koran being violent...

...I just laugh. The bible is just filled with atrocities.

[arcane1]

38. and any TRUE follower of the Bible...

would be indistinguishable from the Taliban

[Ravenseye]

39. Absolutely

Fundies of all shapes and sizes scare me. Christians, Muslims, Jews....all are dangerous and do scary things to provoke and fight other people and believe in the worst parts of their 'holy' texts while ignoring the most important parts.

A relative of mine who was a minister once told me that the biggest mistake people make is reading the old testament without looking through the lens of the new testament. He said that if you read the old testament without interpreting it via Jesus and the New Testament that it was worthless.

He scared me sometimes. His sermons were...well they reminded me of the preacher in the movie the Mosquitto Coast. Thats all I can say.

Still...people are crazy even without religion.

[arcane1]

40. LMAO, in the O.T., God "mis-spoke"

Jesus, his press secretary, "clarified" his comments :silly:

[Ravenseye]

41. God was a Flip Flopper!

The original Flip Flopper

[arcane1]

43. "thou shalt not kill..."

"unless of course, I say it's ok, then you can kill men, women, children all you want!"

"thou shalt not commit adultery, but I can non-consentually impregnate a married virgin if I feel like it"

"Shalt not bear false witness, though I lied to Eve about the consequences of eating the fruit"

:silly:

[Selwynn]

46. Funny thing is, I partially think that hahaha

[jdj]

77. Give me that old-time religion.

Not.

[seabeyond]

18. thou shalt not kill

in ten commandments

the challenge..........is it killing. that is where interpretation comes in. along with judge ye not..........

free will

is it ours to decide

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. Yeah, vaguest commandment ever.

Thou shalt not kill what exactly? THe wuest here is for the clarification of this commandment. (which, it seems, is nowhere to be found)

[H2O Man]

36. It is pretty easy to say

that something is vague, and therefore meaningless. And, to be fair, it could be that you sincerely do not understand what are known to Christians as the 10 Commandments. But that does not take away from what they are.

If you want to have an open discussion, I would think that it would be of interest to note that a good many other cultures have similar teachings. If you lived in the northeastern USA, and were familiar with the Native American teachings there, for example, you would call these basic teachings the Original Instructions.

People such as Adams, franklin, and Jefferson found the Haudenosaunee, or Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy, worthy of being a major influence on our federal government, including the separation of federal powers, the confederation of 13 coloniues, and especially the Bill of Rights.

Many people on the democratic left are familiar with the Haudenosaunee being a matriarchal society, where women had equal political power, and greater cultural rights than men. The Gaiwiio is the precepts of the Haudenosaunee, recited annually at the Mid-Winter Festivals across the north-east. According to the Gaiwiio, yondwi'nias swa'yas (or, abortion) is prohibited.

It is not important if you understand another group of people, or their teachings. What may be important is that we all are mature enough to show some respect for other peoples' teachings and belief systems, even if we may not understand or agree with them

Were we to reach that state, we could likely make significant progress in efforts to make sure that women who do not want to be pregnant do not become pregnant, which is indeed women controling their own bodies. We will never get to that place if we ridicule each other. Nor if we pretend that young people are not going to have sex if we say "just say no." We need to enjoy being human, which implies having a healthy appreciation for sex.

We will still have cases (rape, incest, mother's health, etc) where abortion is necessary. And there are likely other cases where it will be a woman's choice. But it is possible that we can reduce the number of cases per year through greater access to birth control at an affordable price. And that's huge.

[Dem2theMax]

85. Thank you so very much for saying this -

"It is not important if you understand another group of people, or their teachings. What may be important is that we all are mature enough to show some respect for other peoples' teachings and belief systems, even if we may not understand or agree with them."

Now if only they would.

[H2O Man]

90. It's a big step.

But it is one that all of the groups within our society have to take in order to be able to get along. In individuals, we know that it is a stage in development that begins around the age of 5 when children begin to appreciate that they are not the only person with needs; at about age 10, the child appreciates that others' needs are as important to them, as that individual child's are to her/himself.

When that stage of development becomes retarded, or fails to take place, we have products like George W. Bush, who actually believes that he is the exact center of God's universe. Equally sad in a sense (though clearly less significant or dangerous to the larger society) are people on either side of the abortion issue who only see it in terms of themselves, their needs, and their beliefs. This inability to see beyond one's self -- on people from both sides -- has keep our society from dealing with a number of emotionally charged issues that could be greatly reduced with the tools we have readily available.

[indigobusiness]

96. Thanks for that. You never fail to teach me with your considered postings

and remind me how much I have to learn.

Life is complex when lived honestly, this much I know.

[MatrixEscape]

19. They usually cite:

"I knew you before you were in your mother's womb." Jeremiah 1:5

That is what I usually hear against abortion. So, it does not say it literally, but by implication.

However, in return, I go back to Genesis where God is creating Adam. To paraphrase, God forms him out of the clay of the Earth. Adam does not become a "living Soul" until God breathes the breath of life into his nostrils.

IMHO, A fetus is to be treated with respect as a potential, but from that example, it is not a living Soul until it takes the first breath. This actually corresponds with other traditions and also mystical concepts.

[Not Me]

24. US law affixes life at date of birth.

Anyone who wants to believe anything else based on their religious upbringing is free to do so, just don't try to render legal consequences to those beliefs.

[phylny]

47. Heh. I just had a thought.

Every pregnant woman should declare the fetus within her as a tax deduction.

[earthmuffin1970]

80. Here is another point to consider...

A midwife friend of mine told me that statistically, every woman of childbearing age who is still capable of becoming pregnant, (not on birth control) and is sexually active, actually is pregnant 30% of her cycles. In most of these cases, the pregnancy does not "take" and the woman just experiences a heavier than normal period. If life begins at conception, shouldn't all women not using birth control regularly who are sexually active be walking around in states of grief and mourning? It may sound ludicrous, but to me, so do all of these bible-thumping zealots who are trying to create a world where christianity is practiced by all...

[RetroLounge]

26. I'm going to be VERY direct

F*ck the bible. That piece of bullshit fiction has caused more bad shit in this world, and MY country does not run according to it.

RL

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

30. OK, you win. You're more direct than me.

Of course, you realize my point was not to argue the Bible as either right or wrong, but to expose inconsistencies in the so-called "pro-life" thinking.

[seabeyond]

34. OK, you win.

lol lol ol.....you have a good sense of humor. funny

[mmonk]

32. Early Christians did oppose it

It's in many early Christian writings (though I don't think it was based in a political sense). Abortion was practiced throughout the Roman Empire.

[jwirr]

83. In the Roman Empire all nations except

Israel practiced placing unwanted babies (girls, disfigured, sickly, etc.) out onto the hills to die. It was like abortion after birth. At that time the church did not organize a "Pro-Life" movement to go out into those hills to pick up all those babies. They did not see the answer as political. What they did do is stop taking their own babies up into the hills as an example of the difference between the life Caesar offered and the one the church was offering. I think one of the biggest mistakes about PL is that they have made a political issue out of it instead of a personal life-style issue. In doing so they have elected a man like bushie who is a liar, thief, killer. They have sanctioned the cuts to programs for the poor without one thought that they are sanctioning the death of poor children. Gives the church and God a bad name.

[WilliamPitt]

42. "Even in the womb, I knew you." - Psalm 139

You asked.

[Scootman78]

73. Still proves nothing

He asked where it forbade abortion; not where it mentions knowing your womb.

Most in this message haven't answered his question accurately. I doubt anyone can becaues its a moot point. The Bible didn't spend that much time on abortion, it just gave vague arguments to the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" routine.

That commandement is a bunch of crud because we kill lots of things - bugs, mosquitos, spiders, etc. Heck the NRA kills thousands of animals a week and they don't see anything wrong with it. Don't tell me that it didn't mean animals because I never saw an asterisk next to "Thou Shalt Not Kill". If somebody added exceptions like animals onto that commandment, then why can't we add abortion onto it too?

Back to humans...

Prisons around the world put thousands (around there) of inmates to death each year.

Jimmy Swaggart tells his minions that he wants to kill homosexuals.

And...The President & his freakish flock of followers send dozens of soldiers to die each month in a war against a country that didn't even attack us.

Thou shalt not kill. Hah! Since when?

Killing is of course awful, but if you don't fully believe in "Thou Shalt Not Kill...Anything" and if you don't fully believe in the other 9 commandments, then what gives you the right to tell people they shouldn't have abortions. Its extremely hypocritical to preach to others when you yourself can't get your act together. This is why I don't go to church - who knows what my priest or pastor has done.

I'm not talking to anyone directly - just aggravated as usual at some of the things that are wrong with society.

Go ahead and disagree with me if you want. I've made my rant and I'm sticking to it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

91. At what point in this person's pregnancy did this become known?

[annak110]

44. There isn't one, the Bishops campaign against abortion is Papal Bull.

These people are so busy ruining women's lives (as in banning condoms in the A.I.D.S. epidemic) and protecting the ever present pedophiles along with committing treasonous acts in the attempted bribery of elected officials to force them to vote the way the hierarchy wants them to vote that they have just enough time to pass out brochures to parishioners pointing out who THEY must vote for.

[Selwynn]

45. (Opposition prep) Right here: Do not Murder.

Abortion is murder. The unborn baby is a huamn life and that life is sacred - to terminated it is to murder a person as surely as if I put a gun to your head and pulled the trigger.

"You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15)

"You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God" (Psalm 22:10-11)

"God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).

[msmcghee]

55. Words are tricky . .

. . especially after they've been translated from other languages by people with unknown agendas and from far distant times when their meanings were embedded in vastly different contexts.

"You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15)

Is a hat that is partially knit ready to be used and recognized as a real hat? Is the frame of a house the same as a house that can be lived in?

"You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God" (Psalm 22:10-11) and . .

"God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).


Couldn't "from my mother's womb" imply that until a baby is born "from the womb" it does not posses a life or a soul?

[Selwynn]

56. I think it takes more rationalization and work-trickery on your part

to try and rationalize this verses away as refering to God's claim that he knew us and had relation to us even in the mother's womb.

And that's not something I believe it is acceptable to terminate...

(again, opp. prep. only)

[msmcghee]

58. Quite the contrary . .

God is all knowing - and would certainly know of the partially formed life that would become a living breathing human one day.

That's why he explicitly referred (according to this translator) to knitting and frames and being "from" the womb - rather than use word like "you, he or she" that would normally be used when referring to a living person.

I'm not saying you're wrong - just that you haven't proved your point in the way you tried to do it. The meaning you imply is obvious to you because you can not imagine it being otherwise. But others can.

[Selwynn]

62. As I said continuously...

...I'm just presenting the other side - this is NOT what I personally believe.

It could be argued that the very fact you acknolwedge that "the partially formed life .. would become a living breathing human one day" is reason enough to clearly identify the termination of such a process as a moral wrong.

[earthmuffin1970]

81. Yeah! How about that!?

And I can not remember which emporer it was, but Constantine keeps coming to mind, Anyway..I was watching some show about the history of the bible, and it said that this emporer had picked and chosen which books of the bible he wanted included. Yeah, you can say it is God's Holy Word all you want...but too many mere mortals have had their hands on it, and had their way with it for WAAAAAAAY too long for it to be anything much more than a list of suggestions...Just my 2 cents worth

[annabanana]

99. Council of Nicea..

in the 300's

[lurkerguy]

48. Where in the Constitution does it specifically state your right to one n/t

[arcane1]

53. that is hardly the purpose of the Constitution

otherwise it would be thousands of pages long, outlining every thing that we are allowed to do

its point is to tell what the gov't cannot prevent us from doing

[lurkerguy]

57. Thank you for helping to make my point.

The Bible would be thousands of pages as well if it had to spell out every single do and do not. The Bible is not a book of do's and do not's, it's a book of principles. Oh, there are definitely places where it says, “Thou shalt not ….” But more than that, it is a book of principles. Thus you get the anti-abortion point of view “Thou shalt not kill” among other Biblical principle reasons not to abort, such as playing God, etc….
The Constitution is a set of principles as well. The concept of protecting a mother aside, b/c most instances of abortion there is no cause for concern regarding that, the most often used reason would probably be “pursuit of happiness”. I have the Constitutional right to the pursuit of happiness and if aborting a (insert your personal appropriate noun here) makes me happy then that is my right. Or the "it's my body so I can do what I want", even though that argument does not fly regarding illegal drug use.

Both are a set of principles as much if not more than they are an outright text of do and do not.

[Cats Against Frist]

54. Well, technically

The ninth amendment has been used as a catch-all -- the nonenumerated rights part. The court has been hesitant on using this, though. I think think it's great, and is the best amendment we have.

What's not in the Constitution is the Christian Right's right to define "the origin of life" for anyone else. They can define it for themselves, but not me, not anyone who doesn't want to hear their delusional, sentimental shit.

I'm classically liberal -- it's my fucking body. It's my fucking property. I think this rather vulgar case could be made from the writings of the founders.

[EOTE]

59. Where in the constitution does it give you the right to eat soup?

That's a ridiculously foolish argument. If every specific activity had to be condoned by the constitution, we'd be very limited in what we could accomplish. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is somewhat all encompassing. The real issue here is; When does life begin? IMHO, the bible should have no factor in answering that question. However, this thread is about how and if the bible comments on such a question. So your response is both non-sensical and irrelevant to the conversation.

[lurkerguy]

60. Perhaps you should go back and read post 57 so...

you can get to the heart of why I asked the question.
It was not to say you don't have the right, but to show that NEITHER of these texts contain a strict list of do's and do not's. You are making my point exactly in regards to the Bible. If everything had to be spelled out word for word in the Bible, you get the idea. It would be living by OT law again and not by God's grace and liberty. I asked the question in part to submit and say it does not state in the Bible specifically, but it doesn't specifically state the right to one in the Constitution like some probably believe it does.
Principles, thank you for helping make the point.

[w4rma]

51. It's the only thing Repugs can point to that many folks think is Christian

It's the only time that Repugs may be following one of the commandments, and they have to argue over when life actually starts to do it and they have to let alot of innocent pregnant women to die to do it.

[noamnety]

52. Instead of us trying to interpret the bible

It would make more sense to go to the ultimate authority - the Pope.

Pope Stephen V in 887 CE: "If he who destroys what is conceived in the womb by abortion is a murderer, how much more is he unable to excuse himself of murder who kills a child even one day old." "Epistle to Archbishop of Mainz."

Pope Innocent III (?-1216 CE) wrote a letter which ruled on a case of a Carthusian monk who had arranged for his female lover to obtain an abortion. The Pope decided that the monk was not guilty of homicide if the fetus was not "animated."

Early in the 13th century, Pope Innocent III stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life.

St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) also considered only the abortion of an "animated" fetus as murder.

Pope Sixtus V in 1588 threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty.

Pope Gregory XIV revoked the Papal bull shortly after taking office in 1591. He reinstated the "quickening" test, which he said happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks).

In the 17th century, the concept of "simultaneous animation" gained acceptance within the medical and church communities in Western Europe. 9 This is the belief that an embryo acquires a soul at conception, not at 40 or 80 days into gestation as the church was teaching. In 1658 Hieronymus Florentinius, a Franciscan, asserted that all embryos or fetuses, regardless of its gestational age, which were in danger of death must be baptized. However, his opinion did not change the status of abortion as seen by the church.

Pope Pius IX reversed the stance of the Roman Catholic church once more. He dropped the distinction between the "fetus animatus" and "fetus inanimatus" in 1869.

Canon law was revised in 1917 and 1983 and to refer simply to "the fetus." The tolerant approach to abortion which had prevailed in the Roman Catholic Church for centuries ended. The church requires excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm

If the bible is so unclear on the issue that even the popes can't agree on it, I think it's fair to say the bible doesn't explicitly forbid it. People are reading things into it, depending on what they want it to say.

[cheshire]

63. Not only that but most of the crap the moral right says is not of the

bible it is a tool to instill fear, first as a child then as an adult.

[porphyrian]

66. Most Americans don't get abortions.

Obsessing on such a divisive topic only distracts from the real issues.

[dennis4868]

69. Thou Shall Not Murder

[SemiCharmedQuark]

70. But you can't murder something that isn't a living human being

You can't murder a tumor or an arm or any other growth of living cells.

[dennis4868]

71. I agree.....

but the right win nutbolts say that you can....even according to the Talmud it is not murder unless the baby was aborted very late in the birth process....

[myopic4141]

72. Exodus 21:22-25

This is the only reference to the relationship between a mother and unborn child in the scriptures that I am aware of. There is a difference in these verses between the original Hebrew and Greek translation. In both, if the woman was killed by accident (collateral damage); then the resultant penalty was an eye for an eye. In the original Hebrew, if the unborn child was killed, then the penalty was a fine. In the Greek translation, the term fully formed was added to the unborn child killing to raise the penalty to eye for an eye; otherwise, the penalty was a fine.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

74. Thanks, I was trying to remember that passage

My genetics prof and I were discussing it and he brought it up.

[myopic4141]

86. A good book on this and other items.

"The Jews in the Greek Age" by Elias J. Bickerman. The origin of the one man/one woman marriage tradition is in the book as well.

[Djinn]

82. the bible

and every other holy text is so riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies to follow it to the letter would require multiple personality disorder.

I'm always amazed at how people can "decide" which bits of the Bible or "fact" and which are allegory, which parts are "important" and which bits they can disregard - that goes for the right wing fundies AND the left wing religious folk who beleive all the killing and smoting bits aren't as important as the "love" parts - dunno how they get to that given the war like bits are more prevalent.

Anyway if we take the Bibles word seriously God him/herself is a "baby killer" just ask the first born of Egypt.

A DUer actually once quoted a bile passage that seemed to suggest God didn't view a fetus as a person either I'll have to search for it.

[Tight_rope]

88. I totally agree with you.

[Trahurn]

87. It Doesn't

The bible in no specific chapter or verse forbids abortion. That is something the right wing religious wackos always try to say it does and you cannot use the commandment "thou shall not kill" as the biggest supporters of the death penalty are republicans. I deplore abortion as do most people but it has it's place. My republicans siblings are always screaming of women using abortion as a regular means of birth control and of course that's nuts. I continue to ask them to give me even one womans name that has had and will continue to have multiple abortions just to maintain the family status quo. I am still waiting. Most women who have had an abortion have only had one in their lives and usually resolve never to get in that predicament again. It has been the final and often only alternative to many women but that's just my point. We must maintain their right to choose.

[iverglas]

92. you missed it??

http://www.postfun.com/pfp/atract.html


CLICK TO TURN THE PAGE

[kohodog]

98. I was taught (and as I recall, there is Biblical Reference),

that life begins with the first breath and ends with the last. "Breath life" is when the soul begins. Abortion happens prior to breathing and does not end a "life."

That being said, in our culture it is a huge personal issue, and that is how it should be dealt with. Choice.

[annabanana]

100. spirit; aspirate, same root......breath=spirit

n/t

[tuvor]

101. Who cares about the Bible? What about science?

Speaking, ahem, directly...to this Christian it's about where life begins.

And thanks to science and applied sciences like photography and prenatal surgery and the like, it seems to me that there is life before there is breath.

I'm not sure how long before breath life begins, but with what we know these days, it just seems naive on the face of it that for the entire nine months, it's not a living human.

Many of you (myself included) are willing to accept Darwinian evolution as real with a lot less evidence.

Thanks for reading my ramble.