Are we a nation where adult men who refuse to grow up?

[KlatooBNikto]

I remember an icident some years ago when Stefan Edberg the great Swedish Tennis Professional and a champion in his own right had lost a match at the U.S.Open to Jimmy Connors or John McEnroe, I forget which. The CBS reporter at courtside went over to Stefan and as he was taking a drink asked him " How do you feel now after losing the match?Is it too painful?" She was not prepared for his answer which was " No.It is only a game.Life is more than tennis matches". The woman reporter first of all forgot Stefan himself had won several grand slams including Wimbledon and the U.S.Open.Secondly, the fact that a great champion like Stefan could deal with victory and defeat in the same way simply left her speechless.She mumbled some incoherent words after that swiftly made an exit from the camera.

I bring this up mainly to show that from Little League to Oscars to Emmys and weekend football games the socalled adults prancing around as though victory at all costs is the only thing that matters may very well have infected our whole country.I am afraid this mindset more than anything else has given rise to Bush.

[mhr]

1. The Media Promotes Winner Take All 24/7

This has had an inverse impact on the national Psyche.

According to the tube you must be too rich, too thin, and too powerful to matter in America today.

So if you are not too rich, too thin, and too powerful you are worthless in America.

Hence, Americans take each and every civil engagement as an opportunity to make up for their real or perceived failures and weaknesses.

[kayell]

2. Rational behavior does not make for good TV

which of course means that we get endless exposure to people behaving at their very worst, leading many to think that such behavior is normal and acceptable, increasing the possibilites for good video news.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Nay]

3. Yep, and the less rational behavior we see on TV, the less likely

people are to be rational in their presidential choices, either. Rational people are "boring" or "droning" or "pointy-headed." After this last debate, though, maybe "stupid" and "swaggering" doesn't hold quite the cachet that it did. Too bad so many people had to die needlessly to penetrate the TV mindset.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. We are ABSOLUTELY a nation that refuses to grow up.

One example: Taxes. My father and mother accepted them as part of citizenship. Today, people are making far more money than they ever did, even in their best times, but all they do is complain. People, especially men(I am a man...) have an attitude like a 9 year old: They don't want to do their chores, but they want all their privileges and more. Ghod forbid they have any cut in services, like roads not being plowed in a propt and expiditious manner. But pay for those services? NEVER! School kids in a proper way? SCREW THEM BRATS!

Oh, they will have their boats, fine cars, palatial McMansions, toystoystoys, but goddamn the first person that tells them that this comes with a price. If they have their own business, especially goddamn any person who looks to make a livable wage.

I see it all the time. It makes me sick. Essentially, this nation is suffering from a national epidemic of sociopathology.

[Kanary]

5. ".....national epidemic of sociopathology."

Absolutely! All your examples are spot on.

And, one doesn't have to look for to see it.

As I keep saying, we also need to be looking at ourselves in all this.

Kanary

[indigobusiness]

24. You nailed it...

So now our fearless leader pulls rabbits from a hat to distract from the fact that the snake is eating its tail.

[FlemingsGhost]

6. Yes. But don't forget the women.

Deep sexual insecurities and paralysing fear of failure/loss are the building blocks of the collective American psyche.

Although expectations of perfection can never be met, we strive for it nonetheless, thus constantly creating the illusion of failure. This fundamental flaw of logic, along with compulsively thinking about it (worry,) continues to feed our greatest fear and repeats itself ad nauseum.

Our response is anger, frustration and denial. Emotions very similar to that of a brooding child...

(on edit: typo)

[donkeyotay]

7. The example you give also illustrates the win-at-all-costs mentality

In theory, a two-party system recognized that the other party is the loyal opposition. The object is not to destroy the other party. But the cultural war has justified a win-at-any-costs, warlike mentality.

Football, especially, seems to be advertising to persuade men that it's good to just wallow in the sports world, as if there isn't anything else important going on that requires their attention.

[cheshire]

8. I fear that Bush will in turn teach our grand/children that and worse.

[democratreformed]

9. Oh, don't even get me started...

I was harping about this very subject today. My dad and my brother are prime examples. When they don't have a woman in their lives, they have to have the secretary "take care" of their stuff. My brother even had her to get his mail, keep his checkbook, and write out the checks when it was time to pay his bills. My dad did that, too, after my mom died. Only he had ME doing his stuff.

I'm happy to say, though, that neither of them are Bush supporters. It will be the first time for my dad to vote Dem. But, he did say to me the other day, "The only thing I don't like about John Kerry is that I'm afraid he might want to take our guns away." I said "Oh come on. Don't fall for that Republican bullcrap line. They've used that for years against the Democrats and it's worked with us down here in the South. We Democrats wouldn't let anyone take our guns away, either."

[KlatooBNikto]

13. It is amazing that in Sweden the king acts like a commoner and nobody even

notices, as though it is the most natural thing for a King to do.The Queen goes grocery shopping on her own without a whole motorcade and sirens and people don't even take a second look.The King is proud not of his palaces and splendor but his scholarship and erudition.He would no more think of having a paid Press Secreatry than hiring a ventriloquist. His flawless English and French with coherent sentences flowing one after another is something to marvel at.His Queen is equally well versed and sophisticated.Her grasp of world events will put many of our politician and press pundits to shame.

That a monarch behaves like a democrat and a socalled President behaves like a tyrant is ironic to say the least.That we have come up with the proverbial short end of the stick should bother us, but in our national self absorption and chest thumping, who cares?

This is why it is possible for a Stefan Edberg to be a class act.The expectations of the society make for different personal behaviors.No one will ever see a Stefan Edberg, Bjorn Borg or Mats Wilander, all great champions, behave like seventh graders throwing tantrums.

Can we say the same about our "King and Queen" or any of our socalled sportsmen? If you say yes, you must be dreaming.

[democratreformed]

18. Another thing that really bothers me...

is this opinion that we are better than everybody else. "If we do it, it must be the best way" - because, after all, we are the smartest, greates, bestest nation and people on earth. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH! IMO, our country will continue to head downhill if we persist in this attitude that there is nothing to learn from the rest of the world.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

33. National Narcissism = NAZI-ism. "Might Makes Right"

That's the pathological national identity Americans are intentionally steeped in so that the Pentagon and its corporate backers can commit any horror with impunity.

Schwarzenegger emodies this is in the same way Raygun did.

[Rowdyboy]

10. Don't forget the insane consumerism that has Christmas decorations

starting around Labor Day, adults who refuse to take responsibility for controlling their children in public (children don't need adult "friends"-they need parents), and a celebrity culture that elects the like of Schwarzenegger and Ventura being elected to high public office.

We're selfish and self-centered. We want what we want and we want it NOW. We're the Burger King generation "Have it your way!" Yes, men are the worst examples, but women are pretty bad too.

[moondust]

11. "2nd place is the first loser." Dale Earnhardt

"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." Vince Lombardi

[OneBlueSky]

12. Vince Lombardi was full of shit . . . so is Earnhardt . . .

it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game . . . wise words that seem to have been forgotten in today's culture . . .

[Auntie Bush]

14. It all starts with some immature Little League parents.

[mare]

19. this is really not just a US problem

my father and mother were coaching a little league soccer team together for a few years and after matches they would often come home and basically say that most of those parents were totally out of their mind. Once there even was a fist fight between two fathers.

[phylny]

17. Lauryn Williams is a 20-year-old who won a silver medal

in the 2004 summer Olympics 100 meter dash. She "lost" by all American standards, but she was hopping around and jumping around, arms in the air, victorious. When our country sees second place, we think "loss" but this young woman had done a remarkable thing, and she didn't look at second place as losing at all.

It was a small moment, but it was really refreshing to see. We need to learn from people like her.

[meow2u3]

22. Vince Lombardi has been misquoted for years

He never said: "Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing". He actually said: "Winning isn't everything; the will to win is the only thing."

[annabanana]

25. the quote was completely turned on it's head?

Very interesting information... thank you!

[Southpaw Bookworm]

23. Look where it got him

That "win at all costs" attitude put ol' Dale six feet under. oops.

[AngryAmish]

26. Every cracker will hate you

Everyone knows Sterling Marlin killed him. I am kidding. But Marlin got death threats.

[Southpaw Bookworm]

28. I know, I know

I can take it though -- I was raised around drunken crackers, and know how to hold my own.

[AngryAmish]

31. Then why are you defending Sterling Marlin?

he-he

[slojim240]

15. Funny, my family discussed this very thing at dinner tonight.

Holier, mighter, meaner, me, myself and I. That's how we raise our children. We raise them to believe that they are not equal to but superior to all others. Win at all costs and whine when others beat you fairly.

[Tsiyu]

16. Remember this...

the advertisers who sponsor TV and radio and movies want to reach folks with disposable income. Who has mucho disposable income AND the habits to spend it? 12-25 year olds....

Therefore, the entertainment industry has gone out of its way to produce content pleasing to the 12- 25 year olds, thereby attracting advertisers who pitch to that demographic.

Your entertainment, news, music and film Bigwigs have dumbed down everything to appeal to insecure, immature, horny 12-year olds.

It's jest bidness, folks.

[sweetheart]

20. Rather it has to do with money

It is quite common in american life to be judged by your wealth,
whether you drive a mercedes or a 14 year old honda, whether you
play golf, or go bowling. And a whole class system has emerged
where money makes people "grown up" appearantly?

Yet the greatest men and women are those who are beyond the
simplistic food-pellet syndrome of social attaboys, money obviously
the core system in a cage of rats who hoard such things.

What you ARE has nothing to do with what you DO, and what you HAVE.
Yet it appears that the entire culture is childish, and that money
is the real-world proxy for winning at tennis. The greediest shits
float to the top and are worshipped as heros, whilst the culture
rots away beneath them.

[ProfessorGAC]

30. Now I Have A Conundrum

I have a very good job, have a decent nestegg for retirement, but live in a small house, drive 10 year old cars, and play both golf and bowling. (I have MS. There's only so many activities in can do.)

So, now i'm all mixed up. If i golf, i'm good, but if i bowl i'm bad? If i make good money, i'm ok, but if i save it instead of spend it on conspicuous consumption items, i'm bad?

I'm so confused.
The Professor

[PATRICK]

21. Short circuiting the script

It is so easy, but the public chooses to play along as if in a flattering ritual, which makes me highly suspicious of "man on the street" elicited opinions concerning issues the media is too cowardly to take a stand on themselves.

It seems to be getting easier and easier to crash the ritual with the simplest sensible comment. It should be done regularly.

[BiggJawn]

27. "Second Place is First LOSER"

Ever hear THAT one? I think it used to be a Camp Lejeune slogan for Gyreene Boots, but now it's filtered down into the pee-wee and training pants leagues for kids.

And the weekend warriors believe it, along with "PAIN is WEAKNESS leaving your BODY!" and thus we have sports Medicine as a growth industry.

[goddess40]

29. When so many worshiping athletes that are just thugs

it is no wonder why we have a problem with maturity. Not to mention wealthy and famous men that trade their wives in for a trophy wife and no one has a problem with it.

[Blue_Tires]

32. i agree completely

[hiphopnation]

34. I take issue with this.

Is it a) that Americans refuse to grow up or that b) that we are still growing? To compare the states to some European nations in an effort to show that we're a young, immature, upstart nation as compared to Europe is something of a specious agrument as most Euproean nations have many centuries of age and wisdom on America. Just a thought.

I've no trouble agreeing that the nation as a whole is somewhat lacking when it comes to our general understanding of where we fit into the global scheme of things. But our youth, energy, and exuberance are also part of what have attracted people from all over the world here for the past two centuries.

To tie capitalism into this analogy seems particularly erroneous. I could see tied "corporatism" into the argument in that corportism seems to perpetuate and garner a petulant attitude towards history, age, the evnironment, humanity and other things that the citizens of coutnries with a longer life span seem to grasp a little better.

My $0.02

on edit: it wasn't you that mentioned capitalism but another poster, sorry for the confusion. But I do agree with you that it is our youth and inexperience that has born Mr. Bush. But it's part of our growth process. We'll come through it a better nation if we don't destroty the whole world before it's done. :scared: :nuke:

[democratreformed]

35. Thanks for your optimism. It is refreshing.

I just wish that we could get it through our thick heads that a large part of the rest of the world IS older and wiser and that, perhaps, we should start paying better attention to the GOOD things other nations have accomplished. Instead, we persist in thinking we're the only ones on earth who can do and be the best at every single thing and that we do that because we are infintely better than everyone else.

On edit: Oh, and I sure hope you're right about us becoming a better nation as a result of all this.

[EnfantTerrible]

36. I know I am

But I don't pretend to represent a nation... like a certain chimp I won't name for fear of embarrassing * more than he's already embarrassed me.

[sr_pacifica]

37. Oh yeah, completely. Men and women. n/t

[MisterP]

38. Psychology Today had one on sports mentality in business

http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20040921-000003.html