Why is Haiti so poorly run?

[AngryAmish]

Haiti is profoundly poor and ill-run. But why?

I have to admit that I do not know much about the place. They have been independent for a long time. Was there an aristocracy that ran the place into the ground? Are there no resources or fertile land? Has the US been pushing the place around? Please inform me.

[951]

1. Because they lack the adequate education

to develop a stable government?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

2. Why is the United States so poorly run?

[951]

4. It isn't

Well not to the level of how Haiti is run.

[noiretextatique]

23. it is...considering the vast wealth we have

we still have an incredibly uneducated population, for the most.
your answer explains a lot about the USA and why we are in the mess we are in right now.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

40. Why? Because we do our killing "legally"?

Do you think letting people die slow painful deaths through sickness and disease because they can't afford medication is any different than shooting them in the head? Same game, different equipment.

[indigobusiness]

13. Exactly. USA fucked up Haiti like it fucks up everything

lately.

[Heyo]

31. And..

..how exactly did the US fuck up Haiti?

Heyo

[Suspicious]

32. For starters?

The U.S. has invaded Haiti five times. At the end of one 20-year stint (which ended in the mid '30s, after U.S. forces killed thousands of Haitians), we left the country in a state of disarray sufficient for the emergence of the Duvalier reign of terror (Google "Papa Doc" and see what you come up with).

The U.S. has consistently used CIA terrorist tactics (training and arming "rebel" troops) in Haiti to subvert any progressive movement in the country, lest the Haitian civilians get the wrong idea and actually believe they deserve anything beyond working for pennies to produce for our markets and keep the elite Haitians in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.

[Character Assassin]

34. Sorry, Haiti was major league fucked up long before we crashed the party

It's entire political history reads like a UN massacre report and an arrest report for a possible 72 hour mental instability hold.

They've had almost nothing but misfortune since day one.

[Blue Wally]

57. When the Marines ran the place

It was the only decent government the haitians have ever known. The Marines built the roads and the phone system and left a decently functioning country.

[indigobusiness]

36. The latest example was kidnapping their president

and flying him to France.

History is replete with other examples...just google it.

Ignoring the reality of AIDS is a good place to start.

[da_chimperor]

3. Looks like there's a lot of reasons, take a look

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ha.html

[951]

5. Compare those stats to its neighbor The Dominican Republic

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html

[da_chimperor]

8. Hmm, it seems that the last dictator actually did a fair job

for a dictator. Especially when you look at what Hati is like now. I suppose a dictatorship is better than persistent civil unrest. It seems that both countries have a problem with deforestation, though I think the situation is worse in Haiti. That's apparently why so many died during the last tropical storm due to mudslides.

[noiretextatique]

37. aristide wasn't a dictator

he was elected by the people of haiti...a fact lost on most americans.

[Character Assassin]

41. So that means he can't be elected by the people and still be a dictator?

Whether he was or wasn't is immaterial to how he first got there.

[noiretextatique]

53. no...that's propaganda

but...you already know that.

[Bridget Burke]

6. I don't know as much as I should, but here goes:

"They have been independent for a long time." Yes, they were the second country in the Americas to gain their Independence. And it was a rebellion of slaves against masters. So Europe has never forgiven Haiti; in fact, Haiti paid France 90 million gold francs for the crime of gaining Independence.

"Was there an aristocracy that ran the place into the ground?" Yes; most of them of mixed blood. They've always been a very small percentage of the population. There were never large numbers of merchants or yeoman farmers or any sort of middle class--they had all been slaves!

"Are there no resources or fertile land?" Very few. The French raised much sugar cane, which can be hard on the environment. Overpopulation has led to loss of most of the forests--leading to some of the flooding that followed the hurricane.

"Has the US been pushing the place around?" Yes, we've invaded several times. We supported the cruel regime of Duvalier, but his son was so corrupt we let him get on a plane & leave (taking much wealth with him). Aristide was not perfect but he was the choice of the Haitian people. We let a gang of crooks take over--& they aren't very good at governing.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redpepper]

21. It may be ugly , but some times the truth

is ugly, Why am I a troll? For not blaming everything on the USA.

Why are other island nations in the Caribbean fairing so much better? Sooner or later people must stand up to the oppression and decide they are not going to be victims. Why did the folks in Haiti bite the hand that was literally feeding them when others suffered just as badly in the bout of hurricanes that passed through and managed to accept help in a civilized manner.?

[Kushlash]

27. Ok

That is a good point. Nicely done. But I think they are going to get you. Someone has probably alerted you already.

[noiretextatique]

30. question

do you know anything about haiti?

[jdj]

47. You REALLY need to watch some other station besides Fox.

You are embarassing yourself.

[da_chimperor]

10. Poverty leads to overpopulation

not enough birth control, health care, etc. Try to be more understanding. It's easy for us to say, but if you live in a shack and have to scrounge for food, it's much harder to be able to think about more than your everyday needs.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[951]

18. self delete

[Kushlash]

22. Actually....in all honesty...

I have been here before but was booted for disagreeing with the guy who was bragging about harrassing and threatening the guy in traffic for his bumperstickers. Shortly after being booted 3 other people came out to agree with me and say the same thing. Sometimes it feel like my own team goes against me.

[da_chimperor]

24. Some people are paranoid about freeper trolls

My recommendation is to watch what you post for your first 50 to 100 posts or so. If you think it's likely it could be taken the wrong way, then rephrase it. If you're being sarcastic, be sure to note that. Welcome to DU (again)!

[Kushlash]

26. I realize that

but it gets on my nerves that people can be so simple and shallow. I should be able to disagree with someone on a topic and not be afraid of being kicked of because some witch hunter feels important or powerful by hitting the alert button. I visit a lot of sites and I love to debate. This is one of the few sites where I have had problems. I didn't agree with someone shouting obscenities in the street while representing this party. I think the thread should have been deleted and that person should have been eliminated. But because he had more "Numbers" than me these alert freaks just assume I am in the wrong and give me the boot. Where is the open minded justification in that thinking. I could easily agree with everyone a thousand times and then come out with some fanatical ranting. I bet I would still be on. Just because I have a thousand posts or more. People need to wise up...stop judging a book by its cover...and read the writing rather than the post numbers. I will probably be deleted for this post.

[da_chimperor]

28. I completely agree with you

but the fact is a lot of freepers would like to get in here and provoke people, and most DUers don't appreciate that. The number of posts shows that the more posts, the less likely someone is to be a troll. Most freepers don't seem to be willing to spend days posting a lot just to get booted from one post saying "DU sucks" or something like that. Questionable posts from people with few posts are heavily scrutinized. Please try to be understanding.

[Scootman78]

48. Just ignore the haters - DO NOT conform to their rules

Based on what the other respondent said, I think he wants you to acknowledge that you're new & different, therefore you can be ostracized and you shouldn't argue.

Sounds like the first day of school or the first day of Nazi-controlled Germany. Either way its pretty sad.


Two Words: Peace & Prosperity.

Not really something you think about when you're relatively new to the board and you're being called names.

You shouldn't have to say you're sarcastic in your first 50-100 posts. That's like apologizing for speaking your mind. Are we shutting down the first amendment here?

Most of those who will call you a freeper are probably closet-freepers themselves. Hate hate hate and then Ha! ha! ha!...sure sounds like they're sharing the freeper mentality to me.

So what do you do when you post a message that supports the ideals of the democratic party (peace & prosperity), yet some haters choose to flame you for your open-minded and sarcastic opinions? Here's what you do...

Ignore them.

If you're a nice person, you'll definitely find plenty of people on DU who actually believe in peace, prosperity, and progressiveness. True democrats always have a sense of humor too (we have to with the craziness of the world today) and they should be smart enough to know when you're kidding about something. If they don't know you're kidding, they won't hate you for what you say. They'll question you of course, but a true democrat wouldn't hate you.

And you can debate with them over issues - true. If somebody doesn't believe in debate, then they don't believe in the first amendment. If you don't believe in the first admendment, then you're not a democrat.

Stay away from those who hate and enjoy degradating others because they aren't true democrats and you'll probably spend more time arguing with them rather than actually having intelligent conversations.

Trust me, I've learned all-to-well how bad some can be around here. It took me about 5 posts to figure out that there aren't just democrats on this board, but all-sorts of people who basically don't like Bush. Bad thing is, they don't like a lot of other things either and they make sure they tell you about it in a hateful manner. Actually, until this email, I've been trying to correct the haters. What good does it do? None. It just makes me sound negative and since these people just feed off negativity, I get pulled into the sick game they're playing.

Don't play their game and you should do just fine.

Listen to Air America too. At least on there if you hear anything hateful, its not directed to you but to the right-wingers. Somehow, I think thats what the intention of DU was all-along. Pointing out the wrongs in society and emphasizing the good. That's probably just my opinion. I don't know for sure, I'm still relatively new here myself. :)

Scootman

[redpepper]

25. What is a Freeper anyway, I keep reading that term?

I admit I am not very sensitive when it comes to some issues. However I am not a bastard or a racist. A friend told me about this site and I thought it was for Democrats but maybe he was confused. Why would I need a new I.D. ? If you don't like what I said I am sorry but it is one mans opinion.

[FlemingsGhost]

12. Because Haitians aren't calling the shots.

They are simply another corporate subsidiary, according to the "New World Order."

[951]

15. and Santa is on vacation in Florida

I'm sorry but you turned me off when you mentored the "New World Order." which is equivalent to a RW'er mentioning the rapture

[FlemingsGhost]

19. Would you rather I used the term "global economy?"

"New World Order" is not mine, you know.

[da_chimperor]

20. I concur

I think Haiti's present problems are more a result of history and corruption than evil corporations.

[Bridget Burke]

38. You speak as if there's a difference between "history & corruption" and

"evil corporations". Besides a few decades, that is. It's exploitation, no matter how it's labelled.

[parkening]

14. They're in the path

of just about every hurricane that comes down the pike it seems. Having to rebuild so often can devastate an economy that isn't too robust to begin with. People's desire to innovate and get educated has to take a beating in an environment like that.

[951]

16. Remember The Dominican Republic is also on that path

I believe the storm only killed 12 Dominican's compared to almost 2,000 Haitians

[parkening]

52. The DR

is probably the only country poorer than Haiti. I think they just weren't hit by the brunt of the storms like Haiti was this time.

[Xithras]

60. That's simply untrue

The DR has an average income of about $6,000 a year, which is about six times the average income in Haiti. They are also in a much better situation enviromentally and have realized the potential to make money from tourism.

The primary difference between the DR and Haiti is the stability of their governments. DR survived for many years under a single ruler who stablilized their country and made some effort to modernize them. Haiti has gone from invader to despotic thug to invader to despotic thug ad nauseum. What they NEED is a government willing to build an actual economic base in the country. While I respect the fact that Aristide was the first Haitian leader in many years to care about the poor, he failed miserably when it came to actually doing anything about it.

In all honesty, I think I missed the biggest problem in Haiti in my first post. The BIGGEST problem that nation has today is BRAIN DRAIN. All of the Haitians with the education and business sense to pull that nation out of its rut long ago fled the country for more hospitable climes. The only people left in Haiti are those there to exploit it, or those too poor or uneducated to leave.

[Barney Rocks]

29. are their any Agriculture experts in the house?

I know that the people in Haiti grow a lot of sugarcane (which is not that great for them either economically or environmentally). Does anyone know what other crops would grow well in the Haitian climate? It seems to me that if they could make a productive living, things would change for the better. Poverty appears to be the main problem. (I know that is simplistic--but when you are on the outside looking in--it is hard to know much more than that).

[jwirr]

46. I think that the biggest

problem with agriculture may very well be land distribution. In most poorer nations a small percentage of the people own all of the land and the rest are landless. I think that is where Aristide got into problems with the bushie government - he wanted to fulfill his promise of land redistribution - a no-no to a repug.

[Xithras]

59. Land redistribution is NOT a good thing

Haiti is actually a great case study for the perils of land redistribution. In Haiti today, most of the population owns small plots of land on which they grow just enough food to survive. This substinence farming is never profitable, so the people owning the small farms are mired in permanent poverty (remember, no profit also means no tax base, which means no school system or effective government).

Farms grow more efficient as they grow larger, and greater efficiency leads to greater yields, which allows profit to be achieved. Land redistribution is ONLY effective if the land area is so great, or the population is so low, that the redistributed properties are large enough to support modern mechanized agriculture. Population and the lack of arable land in Haiti mean that the average plot sizes range from the size of a living room, to an acre or two. The Haitians would be far better served by converting that land into a smaller number of large farms, paying the Haitians to work those farms, and allowing the government to tax the profits as the surplusses are sold off.

The only other economic system that could pull the Haitians out without the profit system would be pure collectivist communism, but even an effective communist government would have to combine the small farms into collectives and evict the current owners. There simply isn't enough useful land in Haiti to have it any other way.

[Matilda]

49. They have also grown and exported coffee, cotton and cocoa

in the past. Not sure how it was that these industries seem to
have disappeared or been downgraded.

[ogsball]

33. I've been there several times

From a lay persons point of view you have several things:

#1 Education is a real problem. You only get education if you have some money.

#2 No government support. Forever the governments in Central America were more out to enrich themselves more than they are out to serve the people (wow does this sound familiar). The US likes to support these pro business governments that are cruel to the regular people.

#3 The unemployment rate in Haiti is around 70%. There is a huge underclass that has no resources or the education to effect change. Aristide, was a poor priest who when he took over opened up the palace to the regular people. This POed the rich and the US and they subverted, through restricting loans and grants, this government through it's entire existance.

<my kids crying I might post more later>

[Hotler]

35. No money to be made in Haiti.

No riches or resources to plunder. Most everything that's happening is this world is because of money. Follow it and at the end, chances are you'll find a crook.

[noiretextatique]

39. the destabilization of haiti

#12 on the most censored story list here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2454105

[porphyrian]

42. It's an example of years of fear politics...

...and the amount of time it takes to recover from such a regime. Luckily, we have a chance to stop the traitors who've invaded our government before they've shifted all the wealth to themselves.

[Matilda]

43. They were crippled financially by the French early in the 19th Century

and their economy never really recovered.

They had exports - sugar, cotton, coffee, etc., but the black slaves,
imported from Africa, had fought for independence from France from
the time of the Revolution (revolutionary France didn't think its
freedoms should extend to the black slaves of the colonies)until
it was finally granted in 1820, but at a price. The French
government had ships standing off the shores of Haiti to make sure
the Haitians signed an agreement to pay 150 million francs (it would
be billions in today's money) for their freedom. They had to keep
paying it off, and it crippled their economy. Successive tyrants
who bled the people of what little they had only contributed to
the hopelessness.

Aristide was one of the few who was democratically elected and
genuinely tried to do something for the people. But trying to raise
the miserable wages of the Haitians working in the sweatshops was no
way to win friends in Bush's America, and we know what happened. It
was interesting that the French were the first on hand to help the
Bushies get rid of Aristide. Looks as if they've never forgiven the
upstart Haitians who bought their freedom so dearly.

With a little goodwill from the U.S., Haiti might have a chance, but
I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for it.

[shanti]

56. right

the black haitians drove france out of haiti and france has made haiti pay dearly ever since.

[AngryAmish]

58. Blame France?

[noiretextatique]

63. blame colonialism

is the myth that you can screw over a people for centuries...but it won't affect them at all...a uniquely american delusion?

france, like all the colonial powers, bears some responsibility for the messes it created around the world.

[shanti]

64. dude

i would NEVER "blame france", i'm almost 1/2 french myself, i love my french heritage!

put the truth is the truth.

[Cleita]

44. Because the countries who could help them help themselves

don't bother.

[Fatima]

45. interesting link

Haiti news site

http://www.newshaiti.com/

[rman]

50. Haiti's resources have been confiscated by big business,

(under the veil of globalisation). It has been run mostly by puppet regimes installed by that same big business, except for Aristide who was removed in a military coup ran by the US.

Haiti's History: Noam Chomsky Traces Underpinnings Of Aristide's Ouster Back To 1991-1994 Coup
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/17/1545244&mode=thread&tid=25

Remember: from a business point of view, poverty means a flexible labor market.

[SoCalDem]

51. I have been to Haiti, and dearly loved it.. The people were sweet

generous, and gentle people.. They are just DIRT POOR.. Their land has been deforested, they suffer from mudslides, and erosion so bad, that what soil there is, is not very good..

Unfortunately, as a predominately black country, they have been treated very poorly.. The aid that is given has always been funneled through corrupt or inept puppt governments..

There is very little in the way of public ANYTHING there.. People live hand to mouth, and have little hope of EVER being prosperous.. It's downright SAD..

Haiti SHOULD have become a tourist attraction, and could have been , had the government been stable and fair.. It has some gorgeous beaches, It has mountains, it has history..It's been mistreated for centuries, and it shows :(

[Xithras]

54. Many reasons have been laid out, but they all boil down to NO JOBS

Haiti has a huge problem in that it has no real economy of any sort. The industries that used to make Haitian life passable (sugar, coffee, cotton) have all been undercut by falling prices driven through international competition and are no longer profitable. Haiti has never had any substantial natural resources to speak of, it has no upper-class to tax to fund government agencies and education, and its distance from major markets and lack of real port facilities make it an unlikely home for any sort of real manufacturing.

Basically, without anything to do, the Haitians have returned to substinence living. They grow their own food on their own tiny farms, they cut down the forests and hunted their native wildlife to extinction in order to eat and heat their homes, and they just concentrate on surviving.

IMO, Haitis future needs to be tied to the Dominican Republic, as both nations share the same small island. The Dominicans have the same population issues, and have yet managed to build a stable democracy while ending deforestation and developing an economically viable farming and tourism based economy. I don't know why this has never been pursued, but the Dominican Republic is the one foreign nation most directly impacted by Haitis troubles, and is also the one nation in the best position to show them the RIGHT way to do things. The Dominican Republic isn't rich by any stretch of the imagination, but their nation is a stable democracy and their people live very well compared to their Haitian neighbors. The Haitians don't need wealth, they need stability and sustainable jobs.

[noiretextatique]

55. there is still a tremendous poverty problem in the DR

i think that's something that needs to be acknowledged. the poverty, coincidentally, is most pronounced among the DR's black population, including its haitian immigrants.

[Xithras]

61. 40% the last time I checked

The difference is that the poor in the Dominican Republic still have food to eat and a chance at jobs that will help them survive. Those "luxuries" don't exist in much of Haiti.

BTW, the poor in the Dominican Republic are about on par with the poor in the rest of the Carribbean. Haiti is so far below their neighbors in terms of income, quality of life, and education that its sickening. If Haiti were to turn into the Dominican Republic it would still be poor by our standards, but it would be a HUGE step up by theirs.

[noiretextatique]

62. i understand...i just didn't want people to get the wrong impression

because i think some in this thread were trying to give the wrong impression, if you know what i mean.
point taken.

[porkrind]

65. Simple. Uncle Sam wants it that way.

That's what the CIA does for a living. Read the Chomsky link below, and all your questions will be answered.
:dem:

---

Read about the Right-Wing "Master Plan": http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/sam/sam-contents.html

Have you read "War is a Racket"?: http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Read George Orwell's classic "1984" free online here: http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984