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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 04:02 PM
Original message
Feedback, please! My "debate postmortems, volume two":
Edited on Wed Oct-06-04 04:02 PM by calimary
My new column is finished. I'd love your reaction...

OOPS - forgot to say Thank-You in advance. So, Thank You!

10/6/04

He Coulda Been a Contenda.

I must confess I needed help with this one.

I watched. Took feverish notes. Yelled at my television (as usual). But I was yelling at John Edwards this time. Don’t get me wrong. I love John Edwards. I think he’s terrific, and so loaded with potential at this young age that it’s not even funny. But Dick Cheney left enough holes for him to drive a battering ram through, and Edwards didn’t take advantage nearly as often as he could have. He did well enough, though. Obviously, EVERYBODY got the body language memo this time. Cheney was smooth, silky, didn’t give Edwards the Patrick Leahy treatment, certainly didn’t smirk, and didn’t snarl too frequently (although I’m not sure what he’ll ever be able to do about those scary, ever-present bottom teeth that growl up at you like Darth Vader’s death mask). He even spoke in complete sentences. And he seemed to have lots of facts and figures at his fingertips, didn’t he?

Only one problem: they were WRONG. Repeatedly.

My straight-outta-the-gate reaction was, frankly, to give the race to Cheney by a hair. But then, once the dust settled and the postmortems began, and the cackling republi-CON spinmeisters left the room, the fact checking began. And Cheney failed. He failed on the facts so badly that some pundits have almost literally sent him to sit in the same corner with Dan Rather. This more than wipes out any style OR substance points he may have garnered on first, wholly-unwashed glance. Yep, even I initially thought he coulda been a contenda. Until his statements are put to the test, and wash out the same way Cheney did from Yale.

The most glaring would be the one caught straight away by Aaron Brown’s troops on CNN. You never met John Edwards til you were both onstage tonight, Dick? Brown surprised more than just a few GOP loyalists (including his legions of brothers and sisters in the media, one of whom was sitting across from him from the New York Post at the time) with a photo they dug up of Cheney and Edwards at a prayer breakfast, with their wives sitting side by side next to Cheney. Brown’s basic observation could easily have summed up Cheney’s entire performance – not just during this debate, but throughout his and Bush’s collective stewardship: “Good line. Not true, but a good line.” Shortly thereafter, there came yet another photo of Cheney swearing in a number of senators with Edwards clearly in the center of the picture, plus testimony from Edwards’ wife, Elizabeth, that when they’d escorted Liddy Dole to her swearing-in (by Cheney), Dole had done so using Elizabeth Edwards’ Bible.

Cheney seems to me like a guy from one of David Letterman’s Stupid Human Tricks – with the Velcro suit, sticking to the Velcro-covered wall. The poor old dude just can’t get off the Iraq-Was-In-Bed-With-Al-Qaeda treadmill. You’d think, by now, he would – just for the sake of his bad heart. But he just can’t. The very night after his own Secretary of Defense concedes he’s never seen solid evidence to link the two, Cheney can’t give it up. He certainly didn’t during the debate. But when you’ve staked so much of your power, authority, fortunes, manhood, and future in public office and future consulting fees on a statement like this, I guess it’s kind of hard to disengage.

His attempt to portray Edwards as a liar blew up in his face, too, with the quoted percentage of Americans in Iraq, who’ve had their lives blown up in their faces. Edwards clearly referred tothe “percentage of coalition casualties.” Cheney insisted that this was just completely wrong, it’s not 90 percent. Well, okay, Dick. If you say so. The facts actually speak of 88.5 “percent of coalition casualties” being American. But Cheney doesn’t bother to explain that he’s not counting in the same category as Edwards. HIS count is, of course, different, but it doesn’t stand up to the specified yardstick of “coalition casualties.” If you’re going to nit-pick, Dick, then at least pick your nits more carefully.

And, by the way, Mr. C., please pick your websites more carefully, too. When Cheney made the grand swipe at Kerry/Edwards’ “untruths,” he endorsed a visit to www.factcheck.com. Hey, go ahead. Make my day! When you do, you’ll be taken directly to a George Soros site whose banner headline blares “Why We Must Not Re-elect President Bush.” Ouch.

They both had quotable lines. Cheney did have another one about Edwards’ Senate record not being very distinguished. At least that didn’t glaringly get the snot kicked out of it as his “I never met you before tonight” clunker did. But Edwards came up with two, at least one of which ("Mr. Vice President, I don't think the country can take four more years of this type of experience”) got lots of instant replays. Point Edwards.

Another Point Edwards: I’m glad he brought up the much-villified votes Kerry cast against various big-ticket weapons systems, that Cheney never bothers to admit he himself wanted canceled. But that, too, needed to be said more forcefully, AND more frequently. It was also an excellent score to list a litany of Cheney’s votes as a congressman against everything from Meals on Wheels to Martin Luther King Day and Nelson Mandela. So much for the “compassionate conservative,” but at least Cheney knew better than to haul that old bag-o-barf back out to stink up the room again.

I was hugely gratified to see Edwards bring up the “H” word. Halliburton. That one should be repeated after every breath. But when Cheney did snarl that this was just a smokescreen, Edwards could, and should, have shot back with harder jabs than he did. I’m glad he mentioned that Cheney, as CEO, was trading with countries like Libya and Iran that were being sanctioned by the world. But Edwards treated that almost like a throwaway line, instead of a main point to hammer home several times throughout the debate. In fact, when Cheney waxed near-poetic about how Bush’s war-on-terror had convinced Libya to cough it up, Edwards could have stepped in immediately with “that’s the same Libya you were wheeling and dealing with when the law told you and Halliburton that you couldn’t, isn’t it? Trading with the enemy, weren’t you?” And he could have added another truckload of “you say ‘smokescreen? I got yer smokescreen RIGHT HERE!” But then again, if Edwards had started down that road, he’d still be ticking items off the list even now.

Another exquisite moment that, so far, both Edwards AND Kerry have missed, much to my dismay, would address the almost surreal complaint that John Kerry is somehow calling our allies bad names because he refers to a “Coalition of the Coerced and the Bribed.” All it would take to flatten this argument into extinction are two words: “OLD EUROPE.” Oh, how I yearned to hear Edwards say that during the debate. Nor did Edwards take advantage of the address OUR man in Baghdad, Prime Minister Allawi, has now given to his own assembly about how bad things really, truly are in Iraq. “Sobering” was the word used by the New York Times’ report. Much different than the speech that White House operatives so thoughtfully prepared for him to deliver to American audiences when he was visiting here, recently. But, no, he’s certainly no puppet, ‘eh?

The vast majority of viewer polls today give the match clearly to Edwards. Prince Charming bested Rumplestilskin. Our prince could have delivered a few more knees to the evil gnome’s groin rather than simple punches to the gut. But a TKO is okay. Even if Cheney’s good points hadn’t been canceled out by his lies and misrepresentations, his faithful followers would be toasting with a flat beer. Had Cheney won, outright, it would still have clearly shown who their strongest player isn’t. George Bush paled even more pathetically by comparison in this debate than he did during his own with Kerry. In fact, I’d bet next week’s gasoline money that they’re wishing it were Cheney at the top of the ticket instead of the spoiled, flinching, stammering, smirking little boy we saw onstage in Coral Gables on September 30th. Too bad they’ve already declared themselves so flip-flop-phobic.

The best closing moment arrived after the closing statements, when Mary Cheney was finally allowed to come in from the cold, taking her rightful place onstage with all the other Cheneys – unlike at her dad’s party’s convention. Surely her family doesn’t view her as a second-class citizen, but that’s the subtle message they’d already telegraphed to the rest of the country. But this was an appropriate follow-through, after the brief and most tasteful exchange about her, earlier in the debate. If anything, THAT served Edwards, and all Democrats, beautifully well. IF your issue really, truly is “family values,” that is.

Seems to me these debates have become metaphors for the overall campaign. John Kerry will have to do the rest of the heavy lifting for the Democrats. And that’s good. Because he can. The problem for the GOP is that George Bush is going to have to do the rest of the heavy lifting for them. And that’s also good. Because he can’t. And Dick Cheney might have won this match going away – if only he’d told the truth. Seems to me the entire election’s going to come down to that.

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MsTryska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nice Work!
And i totally agree with you.


I know i for one went to bed hoping Mt. St helen's would do her thing, so this would get lost in major crisis oblivion, only to wake up this morning and find that the majority of people tha=ought edwards won, and cheney's lies had been blown otu the water.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thanks!
Actually, I found myself wondering if Rodney Dangerfield would "bigfoot" the whole thing. Probably, with some people, that IS what happened.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. i agree with most of your assessments
re: quotable lines, you write: "Cheney did have another one about Edwards’ Senate record not being very distinguished."
i thought edwards response re: cheney's voting record was very effective.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I guess my one frustration with Edwards is - well, he coulda STOMPED
on this guy. He was more of a gentleman than he had to be, except in the exchange about cheney's daughter. I was actually surprised that cheney didn't make some snide remark at the end, instead of just saying thanks and letting it go. I might have been tempted to come back with some smack at him about the general idea of how hypocritical the republi-CONS are in the way they treat gays, or how it's too bad she couldn't have been allowed onstage at the end of the GOP convention. Something like what I wrote here - "I know you love her to pieces, but it's a shame your party couldn't have put pettiness aside so she could have stood with you and shared all the glory at the end, instead of making you shove her off into the shadows like a second-class citizen." It would have let cheney off the hook a little "instead of making you shove her off..." and pointed to how f-ing two-faced they are with their "big tent" crap.

But then again, I'm sure I'm just an absolute ACE at winning in those game shows, while I sit in the comfort and safety of my living room rather than how I'd be if I were actually out there, under pressure, with the lights and cameras on me. VERY easy to second-guess. But stuff like that I would LOVE to have seen.

I'm STILL waiting for somebody to pipe in with "Oh YEAH? How 'bout "OLD EUROPE?" when they take our guys to task for "insulting our allies."
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. again, i find myself in agreement with you
i listened to the debate on the radio, so i missed all the body language, but edwards definitely sounded more credible, more truthful...and more human. cheney pretty much sounded like the evil liar that he is...totally devoid of anything remotely approaching human emotion. i actually think edwards style of not being too confrontational paid off, overall.

the most surreal cheney b.s. was his bit about kerry not having the stuff to be commander-in-chief...because of his voting record. i don't know how well that played with the mushy muddle, but i thought is was a really outrageous...considering cheney's running mate doesn't have any voting record, and that his administration has been a total and completely miserable failure.

yeah...i suppose we all are good at armchair quarterbacking :D

the bottom line, imho: the supposedly inexperienced edwards more than held his own with the supposedly experienced and wise cheney. i think edwards did a great job in repeating "a long resume doesn't guarantee good judgement."
cheney's "listen to me...i'm an old, white man" arrogance was stale and tired. edwards was much more engaging...and :puke: likeable :D

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soupkitchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. My thought this morning was, Why didn't Edwards mention meeting Cheyney
And the only answer I came up with this: Trial lawyers are trained never to ask a question they don't know the answer to. And maybe Edwards was working a variation of that by not responding to retorts he didn't know the reason for.
I think his mind said, "What are you talking about?" Which made him quickly realize he might be walking into a trap. It was too much of a softball, and so prudently avoided it.
And I think there were a few instances of that in the debate. Which in the end speaks more to Edwards' agility than to his lack of fire.
I watched the debate last night and thought Edwards did very well. But I also presumed it was going to be called a "tie." Fair enough, Cheyney did what Cheyney does best. But the truth of the matter is that Edwards said a lot of things that worth pondering. And, I think as people think about them, he will emerge as a more clear cut winner. And, of course, this gaffe of not being able to remember Edwards is only going to hurt Cheyney in the end.
(And here, let me try an alternative scenario. Edwards jumps all over Cheyney and says, "But we've met at least twice before Mr. Vice-President. At which point Cheyney gets to say something like, I'm sorry, Senator, that right I did meet you twice before, but I guess you didn't make much of an impression, did you? Or something condescending and patronizing like that. A variation of the, Benson "I knew John Kennedy" fileting of Quale. No, Edwards was too smart to walk into that trap.)
Anyway, I enjoy your writing style. However, the "I love John Edwards. He seems so full of potential at this young age, it isn't even funny," seems a bit cloying.
The guy is running for Vice-President. He is already a man of accomplishment not potential. Now, I know what you mean, but I think you could have phrased it better. How about something like, "The fact that he has already accomplished so much, yet obviously has so much more to give the world, just thrills me no end."
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Well, hey, I'm reaching the agonizing point (as is my husband) where
I'm becoming OLDER THAN THE NEXT VICE PRESIDENT. YIKES!!! I'm actually about three weeks older. So, age before beauty, don'tchaknow?

And also, I must confess I hate bush/cheney so much that I'd want to take a verbal jackhammer to them. I'd like to see our guys make cowpies out of them. I'd like to see them treated commensurate with my own revulsion to them and what I think they deserve (which is the depths of Hell - and that's for starters!).

Edwards has made a career as a high-office candidate - taking the high road. His was the ONE campaign during the primaries that was positive pretty much across the board. I guess that's his schtick. It does make a nice contrast to the nasty old troll. Prince Charming versus Rumplestilskin. I wanted King Kong versus dickzilla because I think that's what cheney deserved. But cheney wound up being not only our worst enemy but his own. His lies and distortions brought him down. Keith Olbermann even revised his scoring against cheney for the untruths. Originally he'd given it to cheney on points. But then again, ANYTHING any republi-CON woulda done, after the low that bush set last Thursday, would have been an improvement.
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I Think If Edwards Answered That Attack, He Would Appear Defensive
And there were more subtantive issues than when and where two men have met, so Edwards was right in sticking to his guns.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Well, there's probably a reason why neither of them smacks the bad
guys as hard as I'd love to see them do. But then again, I'm one of those who thinks the best treatment to give these vermin would be inside a federal penitentiary.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. I always enjoy and admire your articles!
I would like to say that Senator edwards has done a few things that are too often overlooked. I am pleased that Robert Kennedy, Jr mentions him as a strong advocate for environmental rights nation-wide in his book "Crimes Against Nature." (page 125)

Also see:

http://edwards.senate.gov/press/2003/0713b-pr.html

I'm sure that we all have things we wish Edwards said to Cheney. I thought the remark about bringing democracy to El Salvador deserved a response about the US training the "democrats" that murdered Archbishop Oscar Ramero as he said mass, or who raped and killed the four nuns. Yet that would have been a level of acrimony that we really do not want Edwards to take part in, at least not in that format.

Remember that of the four candidates, Cheney has the lowest "positives" and highest "negatives." Thus, when we add the lies that Cheney relied upon for his strong points are brought to the public's attention as LIES, he looks worse. Lower his positives, and raise his negatives. (Keith Olbermann is high-lighting this!)

Remember the thing I say (over and over) about the three groups: {1} those who always vote for you; {2} those who always vote against you; and {3} the undecided. Cheney had to appeal to his supporters and #3, due to Bush's poor showing. Edwards was able to focus all his attention to group #3. That's why he didn't slap Cheney.
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