Are neoconservatives dumb?

[Goldmund]

And by that I don't mean the bushbots and the dittoheads, I mean the policy-crafters. Rove, Cheney, Rummy, Pearl, Worlfowitz, and the rest of the crew.

Are they dumb?

[bigbubbabill]

1. I think the dumb ones are

but not all of them

[Goldmund]

2. That's a copout

The question was, as a whole, would you describe their movement as "dumb"?

[DrWeird]

5. Wait a minute...

Are we talking about the movement or the jokers in charge?

Was nazi-ism dumb? Yes. Was Himmler? No.

[Goldmund]

9. Hm...

The "movement" isn't a person, so it can't really be "dumb" or "smart". But we liberals always like to consider ourselves so much smarter -- it goes back all the way to Reagan _at_least_, if not Ford and Nixon. We always confuse their anti-intellectualism for "stupidity" and their ill intent with "incompetence", IMO.

I don't think I'd agree with you that Nazi-ism was dumb. Of course, they crashed and burned in the end -- but with an ideology like that you would expect them to never get beyond a band of street-thugs. Was it insane? Sure. But dumb, I don't think so.

[Warpy]

14. I would describe it as many things

Among them short-sighted, wrong headed, brutal, profligate in spending, heedless of larger questions, and just plain WRONG. I wouldn't describe the men who formulated their policies as "dumb." I think of them as very limited men who see everything in black and white and in terms of power and profit, nothing else.

Lack of empathy and an inability to see larger questions in shades of grey are a peculiar sort of blindness. The worse these men behave, the more they expose their limitations and the sorrier I feel for them.

[Goldmund]

21. If "intelligence" is understood as a spiritual value, then I agree.

They are spiritually bankrupt, no question about that.

But short-sighted? These dudes have been patiently working at implementing their imperial agenda, benefiting the corporate rich few and hurting everyone else, for decades now, and if I may say, making steady progress (in their own terms). Who would have thought after FDR that we'd be having the Bush tax-cuts and the PATRIOT act a half century later?

[Warpy]

33. short sighted because they're unable to see the full consequences

of their ridiculous power and profit grabs. We know that outsourcing jobs while trying to keep the US as the primary (and sometimes only) market will result in no one having the wherewithal to buy any of the goods and services they used to produce. That's what I mean by short-sightedness. They're unable to see things through except in very limited terms.

[Lerkfish]

15. no...naive.

I think they're very clever, but they don't take all variables into account.
They assumed Iraqis would welcome them with open arms and ignored evidence to the contrary. They think that america should be a "global leader"...read "global dictator", but don't anticipate that other countries will respond to that in a negative way.

All their plans operate in a vacuum of irreality. Its not that they're dumb, its that they selectively ignore data.

a good analogy is when I was little, playing chess with my dad, I had an offensive attack going, and concentrated so hard on that I was completely undone by his flanking manuever going on at the same time. So when I got checkmated, I was completely surprised, although it was obvious to my dad (and anyone else) I had left myself vulnerable. I was concentrating so hard on winning, I neglected to account for my opponent's abilities and desire to keep me from winning.

neocons are like that. They think the world will simply accept US hegemony....and are shocked when people find us scary and dangerous.

[Goldmund]

20. Are you sure about that?

Why do you take them at their word when they say that they really thought the US would be greeted as liberators? They lie about everything else, so why do you believe them about this?

Don't you think that the chaos in Iraq -- which my 10-year old cousin could have predicted -- could be a part of their plan? Do you think they would have been able to get people to go along with them if they had said "yup, there's gonna be chaos when we invade"?

[Lerkfish]

34. sure....good point.

as to whether I'm "sure about that", I'm just stating my opinion, so I'm not sure about it.

I think your point is well taken, and I agree that continued conflict benefits the military industrial complex, it is counterproductive to the overarching neocon goal of reshaping the middle east. If Iraq fails to become the dissemination point and strategic focus of materiel, personnel and policy, as they intended, then it delays their plans. Admittedly, they lie a great deal, so I'm only going on what they state as an objective at face value.

If their plan was to use Iraq both for its oil and its strategic location as the first step in a plan of many step, it would have gone better for them if that first step had gone smoother, because its failures jeopardizes progressin onward.

They targeting Iraq because it had been systematically weakened through sanctions, was thought to have been universally disliked, had one of the largest oil reserves that could bankroll further operations, and geographically it had strategic implications. By establishing 14 permanent military bases there, it would become the cornerstone of expanding "american style" democracies through force throughout the middle east.

[NC_Nurse]

3. The people you mention are not conservatives

they are Neo-conservatives. Traditional conservatives are not happy with this administration.

[Goldmund]

4. Point well taken.

I corrected the title.

[kokomo]

31. This group is the spawn of Leo Strauss at the cerebral U. of Chicago,

This group is very smart but lack the street smarts by thinking the comman man is dumb.

For a thumbnail of the Straussian movement that has become PNAC:
http://www.alternet.org/story/15935

[camero]

6. No

They are looters, pillagers, and criminals who push people to the lowest common denominator. Their dumbness is an act because they don't want to be held accountable.

The ones who follow them are.

[Goldmund]

10. "Their dumbness is an act because they don't want to be held accountable."

Bingo, brotha. Couldn't agree more.

[sam sarrha]

7. maybe just really Myopic, gulable and misguided

[Mindful Monk]

8. Absolutely not

OK, the simian boy king is probably of below-average intellect. But the rest are dumb like foxes. There's no way they could have gotten as far as they have in building their empire without being caught out by the American people if they weren't very smart. They are tremendously talented when it comes to getting what they want at the expence of our citizenry. We imperil ourselves if we misunderestimate them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. agreed..most are scholars..not dumb...ideological and evil

Most neocons were formerly known as neo-liberals in the 60's

[Goldmund]

13. "We imperil ourselves if we misunderestimate them."

A great, great point. It's something I've been thinking about for a long time. Maybe I'll write a column for DU.

[Mindful Monk]

23. I've thought about this a lot

Maybe too much. I'm getting to the point where I can take an impromptu blunder by the idiot in chief at face value. If he has no script, he is often simply incoherent, and I see no underlying agenda here.

Any other time I see a GOP action as possibly ill-advised or outright stupid, I always force myself to step back and look at it from other angles. Because I don't think they do stupid things, really. I think they are supremely calculating in all they do. The hard part is figuring out how their ostensibly stupid moves actually help their cause. Seems like a number of DUers are very good at this.

But the downside to looking at their tactics this way is that it's possible for one's investigation to fold ever further in upon itself, until you're seeing hidden motives beneath hidden agendas beneath triple double-crosses, and pretty soon you either become so jaded that you give up, or else you keep explaining yourself at the risk of sounding like a complete nut.

Of course the bottom of this downward logical spiral is the conclusion that Karl Rove has invented all of these tactics for the sole purpose of driving intelligent and aware people like you and me utterly mad.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean Karl's not out to get you.

[Goldmund]

25. Well, it doesn't necessarily imply control of every small-scale event

But if you step back and look at it on the large scale, these pigs have been working for the interests of 1% of the populace and getting nearly 50% of the vote; we've been working for the other 99%, and only get 50% of the vote. Who's dumb, then?

And also, look at the direction they've been able to stir the country in, completely contrary to its idea, its constitution, and its interests. And all the while, most Americans still believe they live in a Democracy. If that is not brilliance, I don't know what is.

And for the record, I do think that Bush himself is dumb. But that's why they put him up there -- to look "folksy" and "regular guy"ish to the dumber part of the populace, and merely "dumb" and "incompetent" to the rest of us.

Ask this question: imagine if, say, Cheney had been the president for the past four years. Do you think the opposition to the Iraq war would basically focus on "incompetence"? Do you think that 9/11 investigations would focus on "missed opportunities" and Bush taking too many vacations?

They know exactly what they're doing, and their supposed "stupidity" is nothing but bait that liberals swallow hook, line and sinker.

[napi21]

16. Here here! They are not dumb by any judgement!

They are very competent at realizing how to affect people's thinking. They've chosen a few topocs and they work!

First...make people afraid!

Make 'em believe Pro Choice is Pro abortion!

The Dems are gonna take your guns away!

Make 'em believe God is on their side!


It's WORKING!!!!

[clydefrand]

11. They are intelligent, but they are greedy, selfish,

ego driven, intolerant, out of touch with the real world in which most of us live. Power hungry.

[shawn703]

17. The policy-crafters are not dumb

But they are evil. I believe these people know exactly what they are doing, and they all expect to profit in some way from the policies they are implementing. They are very good at tricking the people into believing they have their best interests at heart.

The trickle-down economics theory is a good example. They convince the American people that if you cut taxes on the rich, the extra money they get will trickle down into the pockets of the poor and middle class. Of course, it's only a coincidence that these same policy makers and their friends would personally stand to get out of millions of dollars worth of taxes if their policies are put in place.

[Goldmund]

22. Aye

And those they can't convince by their "voodoo-economics" theories, they convince by invoking the "cultural" issues -- like guns, god, gay marriage, abortion. And they always teeter around 50% of the vote, do their propaganda, wait until they've brainwashed a few more, and then push the envelope again, going back to 50%.

[kerryin2004]

18. Alot of them (conservatives) are just greedy.

The republicans are great at scaring the people as far as their pocketbooks are concerned..Even though they eventually have to pay more in taxes when A repuke comes in and raids the treasury, their gullibility is that somehow they are getting a tax break under Bush..BS, most of them are now paying a larger percentage of their income unless they are among the richest, whose percentage has gone down.

Then you have the religious right..These idiots believe that GW is the prophet for our times..They don't listen to men like Desmond Tutu, but instead blindly support this idiot who says I am against abortion.. If he is against it why did he not send one bill to congress to outlaw it?? Gay marriage.. Bush doesn't give a shit..This issue will go away even if Bush is elected.It was chosen to divide us so that we wouldn't be angry about their raiding of the treasury..I don't know about other religions, but unless you're married in the Catholic church, then according to Catholics your marriage is invalid in the eyes of God and the church. Bush is good at sending biblical references to his supporters so I have one for them..Beware of wolves in sheeps clothing..


The third type of republican is the racist Nascar fan.. I am sure you can think of a few more, but these are the three that I think make up the majority of Republicans..They're all getting played so hard..If we all joined up that are middle and lower class, despite our wedge issue differences, we could really change the policies that constrict the middle class..They have to have all these issues to keep us from actually taking a look at the disparity between the richest and the rest and going FUCK YOU! We are not going to take it anymore.. As long as they can divide us, we have a future of being manipulated.

[TrustingDog]

19. No, they have an agenda even smart people can't figure out..

be afraid.

[PassingFair]

24. Not stupid, but certainly

...psychopathic personalities. Amoral assholes.

[0007]

26. Being devious is being stupid no matter how much education

one has.

[Cat Atomic]

27. There's a reason the neocons attract fundamentalists.

Well, there are several, I think.

But one reason is that fundamentalists are already trained to believe things on cue, and to disregard all evidence against their chosen belief. Neocons depend on that sort of thing- all ideologues do.

Neoconservative leaders believe strongly in their world view, and they ignore anything that doesn't fit into it. The problem is that eventually, reality bites you in the ass.

[Goldmund]

28. "The problem is that eventually, reality bites you in the ass."

And in the meantime, the rest of our asses are being bitten on a daily basis, while we wait for this eventuality.

[Cat Atomic]

29. I don't mean politically- that may not ever happen.

I mean we've been bit in the ass in terms of a wrecked middle class, a pointless, unwinnable occupation, environmental problems, and a million other tragic realities that don't fit into Neocon "thought".

[Goldmund]

30. How's the occupation "pointless"?

It's pointless to us, sure. But to them -- well, first they fleece us into paying the big defense contractors, then they bomb the shit out of a country, and then they further fleece us to pay Halliburton to rebuild what they wrecked. In the process, they get control over Iraqi oil and a geopolitical position that gets both Syria and Iran sandwiched between US troops or countries (Israel and Afghanistan respectively) from which US would have no problem launching ground attacks. Meanwhile, the chaos that ensued is a ready trigger for an escalation of the conflict if they so choose.

Wrecked middle class? Of course. But why do you think they care? They don't call it "wrecked"; they call it "tamed". Less loot for us and more for them.

I think all of these fit perfectly into their thought.

[mrdmk]

32. The Neo Cons received their education during the cold war

Many people at that time were bent on doing away with Russia and China and anything to do away with communism. As far as their short sighted view of the world, reflect on how many problems in the world were to be blamed on the U.S.S.R. The mainstream media ate it up. The Vietnam war was a product of this fear. The mainstream media ate this up also. If we could have a history of the world from beginning to present the Neo Cons will not have a leg to stand on. The mainstream media will not do this for us. This is a person's fear to deal with the unknown.

The Neo Cons are nothing new, ingenious or impressive. They are in control of National policy at this moment and have done much damage. The current Commander-in-Chief (?) in 1998 had decided to run for the President of the United States. Instead of Putting together a team to run his campaign and put together his policies, he was being schooled in national politics by Condi Rice and Paul Worlfowitz. This is very strange that a man chosen to lead on of the most powerful nations in the world world would need a education in national politics just to get past the public. What did Rice and Worlfowitz teach this person? Why in God's name was this person even given a pass to even be considered a nominee when he as a person does not know swat!

On the bright side, the "powers that be", do change. At this moment the "powers that be", are changing and it will not be pretty.

[porphyrian]

35. Smart people who intentionally deny facts...

...are definitely dumb. Delusion is their weakness, and a bunch of them are going to be going crazy in the next few months.