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To those who called the debate a Tie, explain how.

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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 07:50 PM
Original message
To those who called the debate a Tie, explain how.
Cheney lied a hundred times or more.
Cheney didnt answer questions.
Cheney's rebutals were weak.
Cheney's body language was horrible, handwringing and sneering.

Edwards looked sharp, body language was great.
Edwards answered the questions,directly and honestly.
Edwards rebutals were quick and to the point.
Edwards caught Cheney in lies and made them known.

Randi Rhodes also called it a Tie with little explanation why.

IMO Edwards won big.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well...
Edited on Wed Oct-06-04 07:55 PM by Spider Jerusalem
Edwards got bogged down in repetition at a few points, he let Cheney put him on the defensive, and his closing statement was rather weak. All in all, though, I'd still give Edwards a slight edge.
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classof56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. I agree--Edwards was the clear winner, Cheney lied through his teeth
And I too would like some explanation from those who declared it a tie. Maybe there's something about the rules of debate I don't understand. All I know for sure is...

Bush and Cheney MUST GO!!
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. chainy was consistent...
so all the stepfords thought that was a good thing.... applecart was not upset. Middling also saw that... hey, that's Chainy.

Edwards was like a fresh breeze in a dungeon...

that Rhandi really bugs me sometime... really really bugs me. How can she call it a draw....
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specimenfred1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Edwards Won Big Time, But Not to the Propagandized Sheep
The sheep see what's presented to them, they don't question anything. They don't care what truth is, only how a supposed truth is presented to them.

VP Chumley's flapping lips spewed lie after lie that don't matter to sheep, they only care how he presented the lies.

It's a package being sold to people, a piece of corporate/fascist propaganda that ignores reality and frames reality however they want to in order to sell you the product. If you completely ignore reality and truth, VP Chumley sold his product effectively enough to convince people that don't know any better.

It's an absolutely amazing phenomenon, the selling of the idea is more important than the idea itself, more important than the truth itself.
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William Bloode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. Because if you ignore Cheney's lies...
It comes off as a draw. But a draw is a strategic victory for our side. How you may ask? Simple, the expectations for Cheney to really nail Edwards. According to all the talking heads Cheney was too crush the inexperienced Edwards, embarrassing Edwards the way, Kerry embarrassed *ush.

This did not happen. The best they can spin it is a draw, with most giving Edwards a slight edge. Cheney failed to really do what was expected and that was to knock Edwards out.

Cheney was supposed to go out and slay the democratic dragon, stop the momentum. What happened is Edwards came off looking strong and every bit the equal of ol' Crashcart.

In the end as i mentioned, even called as a draw the *ush administration loses, due mostly in part to their own heightened expectations.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. It was a tie until people had time to think about what Cheney said.
People will first judge the mechanics, then the substance. That is why you are seeing Edwards numbers rising today. Cheney's lies were too obvious, and it caught up with him.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. No Fair!! The facts have always been biased against Bush-Cheney.
Damn facts!!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. That's it. The problem is that too many Americans
don't know the truth, or won't accept the truth.
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artv28 Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
8. undecided
If you put yourself in the shoes of a less informed undecided voter I can see how Cheney can come across as experienced, knowledgeable, and convincing. Let's face it, if you're undecided at this point, your are uninformed. We here at DU know better. We know Cheney is full of crap. I think Edwards did a good job of clearing up the bogus 9/11 Iraq ties. At least he finally got Cheney to admit the fact that there is no connection. This also proves that he was trying to mislead everyone before. Edwards didn't do as well as I would have liked but overall I think he did enough to win the debate in the eyes of most independents.
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RareLubbockDem Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. I think it's close to a tie because
Edwards basically gave a stump speech, all of which I agree with, but Cheney, even though he lied throughout, had the appearance of the upper hand in many ways. He was condescending and obnoxious, but that's what they like about him. I was disappointed in Edwards to some extent in that I felt he could've hit harder, but still, I give him a slight edge (but then again, I'm one of those damn Democrats....)
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'd like to hear that explanation from Randi, also. WTF is wrong with her?
Edited on Wed Oct-06-04 11:21 PM by w4rma
Is she really that out of touch with people? Even the polls said Edwards won by a long shot and despite the polls she says that it was a tie?

Let me repeat that: THE POLLS SAID EDWARDS WON THE DEBATE. That is the definition of winning one of these debates. When you have gotten a majority of the folks watching to support your side.

I really think this has to do with some folks just not liking Edwards' southern accent, although not with Randi, she is from the south so I seriously doubt that is her problem with Edwards.

Edwards is doing something that is making him popular but some liberals don't like whatever that is. Maybe whatever that is that isn't flying with some liberals, is why some liberals are really bad at PR while Repugs are masters at it. Hmm okay, now I'm really getting interested in the reasoning behind all these folks here on DU delcaring a tie, despite the fact that a clear majority of watchers were swayed to Edwards' side of the argument.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. I thought it was tie. Still do.
Basically, two politicians being political. Both dug in their heels and sneered at each other. I thought the whole thing was boring and of little substance and will have little, if any effect, on the undecideds.

But, I have little regard for most politicians. Some just aren't quite as bad as others. In this case, Edwards isn't as bad as than Cheney, but I don't like either of them.
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palomaki Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. Cheney Looked Sick and Old
It is beyond me how anyone could think Cheney did not lose that debate. Cheney looked as though he had eaten a bad burrito throughout the entire thing, talking into his chest as if he was fighting back acid reflux. He bore no resemblence to the strong Cheney of the 2000 debate with Lieberman. There was a noticeable tremor in his voice as well as in his hands, which he kept clutching, as if in an attempt to steady them. At the beginning he even looked as if we were going to keel over from another heart attack. As for content, both ducked questions but Edwards used far more facts to shore up his arguments, while Cheney spoke more in vagueries and spin. From the post-debate commentary that I've read and heard, it's like I watched entirely different debate in some alternative universe. Which to a certain degree I suppose I did, having watched the debate outside the country in a bar full of Brits, French, Germans, and expat Americans. The overwhelming consensus in that bar was Edwards beat Cheney handily
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Hi palomaki!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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The Minus World Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
14. Condescent and Illusion
Edited on Thu Oct-07-04 03:44 AM by MagicalSpork
Although I did not think that the debate was a tie, I believe that there are many Americans out there who don't have quite a grasp on the big picture. Those people saw, not the snarling prevaricator that we know Cheney to be, but rather an authoritative speaker.

These people aren't blogging, fact-checking or discussing in liberal partisan forums like we are. To all who approached the debate with little or no knowledge of Cheney's mastery of duplicitousness, they saw a man, albeit an impersonable and unapproachable one, who seemed to know what he was talking about. These people are not framing their opinion of the debate with critical, refutatory observations of known lies.

It's an unfortunate truth, but - and I think Randi understood this when she made her comment - this debate was about appearance. In order to combat the slavering news-vultures of the cable networks, one needs to pull a decisive victory, or at least create the illusion that he has an authoritative knowledge that his opponent does not possess.

Unfortunately for Cheney, his penchant for fabricating simp-trivia has finally backfired on him. There were some very blatant lies during that debate, and even the mainstream press are calling him out.

This was supposed to be a victory, albeit a small one, for the GOP. However, I believe that the polls speak for themselves, and the ignorant Americans that I spoke about in my first paragraphs are very evidently becoming a dying breed - I think Rove severely underestimates the vastness of this new anti-Bush consciousness.
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MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. Cheney Used Figures More Effectively
For all the debates, I'm trying to watch as an "uninformed, undecided", just to see if I can figure out what the prevailing sentiment is likely to be.

What hit me, about mid way through, was that Cheney was really using numbers effectively. For example:

"CHENEY: Well, Gwen, the 90 percent figure is just dead wrong. When you include the Iraqi security forces that have suffered casualties, as well as the allies, they've taken almost 50 percent of the casualties in operations in Iraq, which leaves the U.S. with 50 percent, not 90 percent. With respect to the cost, it wasn't $200 billion...$120 billion is, in fact, what has been allocated to Iraq...The allies have stepped forward and agreed to reduce and forgive Iraqi debt to the tune of nearly $80 billion... plus $14 billion they promised in terms of direct aid, puts the overall allied contribution financially at about $95 billion, not to the $120 billion...better than 40 percent. So your facts are just wrong, Senator."

Now, these may not necessarily be accurate or even honest figures but notice the effect: the average TV viewer is not likely to run all this shit through a calculator, double-check with the CBO records, etc, etc. What they are likely to conclude is: "Geez, this Cheney guy has his ducks in a row."

That's crucial. Edwards, I think, is fighting the image of being a lightweight. Unfortunately, Edwards often went with emotional/rhetorical appeals. For example look at his rebuttal to the Cheney statement above:

"The American people saw John Kerry on Thursday night....They saw a man who was strong, who had conviction, who is resolute, who made it very clear that he will do everything...to find terrorists, to keep the American people safe. He laid out his plan for success in Iraq, made it clear that we were committed to success in Iraq. We have to be, because we have troops on the ground there and because they have created a haven for terrorists."

Now, again, put yourself in the mind of an undecided, uninformed voter. What do you hear? You hear a politician asking you to believe what has been said. No explanation of why he says $200 billion and Cheney says $120 billion. No explanation of how Cheney's 50/50 casualty rate sidesteps the point. Instead, you have a politician who is basically saying "trust me" and the American voter is way too jaded to accept that sort of appeal - "you can't get fooled again", to quote Dear Leader's immortal words.

Additionally, Cheney kept hammering K/E on their voting record: the $87 billion, the defunding of weapons systems, increased taxes, etc. He kept saying "The record indicates otherwise..." That's another powerful method because, here again, he knows that the average voter is not going to go check the record and look at the votes, etc. But he does know that the average voter will hear him make the assertion and think "Well, if he says the record backs it up, he wouldn't make such an obvious lie..."

The only rebuttal that Edwards made was "He wanted to kill some of the same weapons systems", which was good. But he never mentioned the fact that Bush threatened to veto the very same $87 billion package that Kerry voted against, never mentioned Cheney's support for a gas tax, etc. In other words, he only minimally covered the B/C record.

Therefore, if I'm watching this as the average, underinformed and undermotivated American citizen, I have to say Cheney won (though I don't think by much).

Mostly
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gold_bug Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
16. I call it a tie with the advantage going to Cheney
he may have lied but he appeared hard-headed and logical while doing it. He spun the facts in his favor and used them effectively to belt Edwards a few times.

Edwards interrupted Cheney on several occasions, that didn't look good. I think Edwards should've done a better job of contrasting his openness with Cheney's secretive closed door meetings with big corporations and explain why that's undemocratic. He should've also contrasted his politics of hope and unity with Cheney's cynical politics of fear and division.
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