I spoke to Christian volunteer about "Faith based Initiatives"

[napi21]

This lady's husband is a minister and theology based psychologist, and she volunteers 3 days a week at a Christian ministry. When she said they were both totally against shrub's faith based intuitive program, I asked her WHY? She gave several reasons, but the most important one was govt interference, and the fear of how they would be manipulated. Another reason is the govt's willingness to be fair to all faiths.

I was very happy to hear those feelings expressed because the media always seems to tout shrubs popularity with this program. The truth is, it doesn't have the acceptance you think it does.

[rooboy]

1. The government's willingness to be fair to all faiths?

I assume she means that the govt will NOT be fair to all faiths, because not one Muslim or Jewish group has received a nickel to date.

[napi21]

5. Of course. Perhaps I phrased it wrong. She (and I) meant

the govt lack of a method to spread funds equitably between ALL faiths!

[Francesca]

2. wow thats interesting

my stepfather is a born again pastor and him and my mother believe regrettably the opposite of this woman that in fact A Dem in office will essentially ban Christian ideology wherever and however they can........ This is very frustrating to argue with

[napi21]

8. My friends husband is also "reborn".

I didn't insert that into my post because I didn't want to appear slanted. He wen't through this reborn thing, then became a minister. Both of these people are very rational thinkers. I was quite surprised when they first expressed their dislike and mistrust of shrub! I figured they would be Pubs for sure. When I asked why very few others in the reborn christian crowd shared their feelings about shrub, they said because they are single issue voters, and no one should do that. "You can never agree with any ONE persons programs, and everyone should look at the total picture and support the candidate who you agree with most."

[sam sarrha]

3. tha last i heard was that only the evangelicals got any money so far

[Lars39]

12. Moon's gotten a lot of funding, too.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/1...

President Bush has some new troops in his crusade to promote "healthy marriage" and teen celibacy with federal funds -- followers of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon, the controversial Korean evangelist and self-proclaimed new world messiah.

At least four longtime operatives of Moon's Unification Church are on the federal payroll or getting government grants in the administration's Healthy Marriage Initiative and other "faith-based" programs.

Two of those Moon associates were in Oakland last week leading dozens of local pastors and social workers enrolled in a "Certified Marriage Education Training Seminar" at the Holiday Inn next to the Coliseum.

In some ways, Moon is an unlikely ally for President Bush's crusade to promote traditional family values.

The 85-year-old Korean is perhaps best known for presiding over mass marriage ceremonies for devotees whose unions are arranged by Moon or other church leaders. After marriage, Unification Church couples are given detailed instructions for their honeymoon, right down to the sexual positions they are supposed to assume during their first three conjugal couplings.

[Wind Dancer]

17. Moon finances many of these "faith based goups"!

-snip-

"One key to Moon's success is a longtime political operative named David Caprara. Caprara, a Unification Church member and former assistant secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development under Jack Kemp, is well connected in the nation's capital and serves Moon in various overlapping capacities.

Caprara serves as president of the American Family Coalition, a Moon front group, as well as representing The Washington Times Foundation. He recently accepted an appointment to serve on an advisory council that Watts put together in advance of the GOP "faith-based" summit. The Washington Times Foundation then arranged to broadcast the event live via satellite to dozens of communities.

Caprara also runs The Empowerment Network, a public policy organization that promotes "faith-based" and family solutions to societal problems. Two U.S. senators, Santorum and Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.), serve as caucus chairmen of the organization. Its "Empowerment Leadership Roundtable" lists two men who have gone to work in Bush's Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives Stanley Carlson-Thies and Don Eberly.

Through operatives like Caprara, Moon keeps a steady hand in Washington and thus in national affairs. Moon is able to open other doors through infusions of cold, hard cash when necessary. For example, many of the ministers who attended the "We Will Stand" events were given gold Christian Bernard wristwatches estimated to cost thousands of dollars apiece."

-more-

http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5684&n...


-snip-

"Another longtime political operative in Moon front groups, David Caprara, now directs the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives for the federal government's Corporation for National and Community Service. That agency runs, among other things, AmeriCorps Vista, which works with community organizations in low-income neighborhoods, and has emerged as a key player in Bush's faith-based initiative, handing out $61 million to faith-based organizations in fiscal year 2003.

Caprara is the former president of the American Family Coalition, a "grassroots leadership alliance" funded by the Washington Times Foundation and founded by Moon in 1984.

Caprara declined to comment on his Unification Church ties, referring questions to his press secretary, Sandy Scott.

"We don't inquire about employee's personal religious beliefs,'' Scott said. "What inspires David's work is a dedication to fighting poverty."

more

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/1...


This stuff is really scary!

[Bluebear]

18. Quelle surprise

[bambo53]

4. You also need to remind people that,

911 was nothing more than a "Faith Based Initiative".

Whenever someone brings "religion" into physical actions, inevitably, really really bad things usually happen to everyone involved. It's called history.

[TaleWgnDg]

6. Bush's "faith based programs" or "initiatives" are a quid pro quo

(a bargained for exchange) with American taxpayers monies and without the consent of the American taxpayer. Congress has not authorized it. Instead, it exists due to President GWBush's Executive Orders.

Bush is buying religious minority votes with the American taxpayers money. Simple, really. Very, very simple. That's the "bargained for exchange," the quid pro quo. Money for votes, votes for money.

And wise religious institutions will not accept such tainted money. Who wants the government in their religion? As will happen because the government, when it doles out money, always has rules and regulations that must be followed. On the other hand, there's the entanglement of religion in government.

This is what Thomas Jefferson said was the basis, the very foundation, the intent, of the first amendment's Separation of Church and State. A wall of separation said Jefferson, one from the other.

edited to add:

"Government cannot make ppl love one
another ... (; instead,) love comes from a
higher calling, a higher authority; the great
strength of America lies in the hearts and
souls of citizens who've heard that call, not
in the halls of government."
— GWBush, campaigning for president in the
2000 election explaining his "faith-based initiatives"
vs. government run programs w/o regard for the
Separation of Church and State.

"(G)overnment should welcome (and grant federal
monies to) the active involvement of people who
are following a religious imperative to love their
neighbors through after-school programs, child
care, drug treatment, maternity group homes, and
a range of other services. Supporting these men
and women is the next bold step of welfare reform."
— GWBush's presidential campaign book,
co-authored by Karen Hughes, entitled, “A Charge
to Keep”, p. 232.

[Bridget Burke]

7. Most mainstream churches support separation of church & state.

They won't tell the government what to do; the government won't tell them what to do.

The Southern Baptists used to champion this kind of independence. But they sold out for a mess of pottage.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

9. Religious charities ALWAYS got government $$$

I should know--I've worked off and on to get HUD money for churches since 1997.

In the olden days, privately funded skid row preachers would give homeless men an "ear bangin'" or sermon, which they listened to in exchange for a meal. To get shelter one had to "take a dive", or stand up and act saved. By all accounts, the whole business was a scam--preacher scamming donors, clients scamming preacher. Salvation aside, the success rates of this "treatment" for alcoholism and homelessness were predictably low.

Government is not supposed to put a dollar value on salvation; government is supposed to find programs that work. A lot of religious groups run successful housing and treatment programs that meet government standards, including nondiscrimination in providing services. And guess what that means? No one has to sit through a particular denomination's sermon for a meal, or profess a particular faith for a bed. Those are the rules Faith-Based is trying to roll back.

I understand that the vague concept plays well with the rw voter, but I think there's something more to it. Groups like St. Vincent de Paul and the Salvation Army are pretty powerful...

[Terran]

13. Thanks for clarifying this issue a bit

I work for a non-profit and get paid by a HUD grant that involves working with homeless service providers all over my state, many of whom are faith-based, and many of whom are not. The whole "faith-based initiative" is nothing more than a way of encouraging the faith-based agencies to apply for federal funding, but the rules regarding what those agencies can do once they get their funds have not changed.

The Bushies have basically duped a lot of the smaller faith-based operations into believing that they can just step up and be given gobs of money and that they can do whatever they want with it, but this is no more true now than it has ever been. It's not an easy process, getting a federal grant--you have to work for it, and be able explain exactly what you do with the money. True now for all applicants, and true then as well. And yet a LOT of faith-based operations can and do successfully apply for funds, and they do abide by the rules that are designed to prevent the money from being used for religious purposes. So I don't really see the faith-based initiative as an encroachment between church and state.

One has to understand the complicated process of applying for federal funds to really see what's going on here, which isn't much, in reality. It's all just propaganda, really--a way of convincing the faith-based operations to apply for funds. A lot of them still want nothing to do with federal money, but I think more of them recognize the ultimate benefit to their client populations if the DO apply and follow the rules.

[noonwitch]

14. Lots of church-run agencies get paid by states for foster care programs

Most states don't have the resources to do the entire job alone. They pay agencies to help out. We spell out ways that they are not to intervene with state policy in our contracts, including a statement on each that they will not interfere with a teen's use of contracecption. It works, partly because most of those agencies are not exclusively hiring employees who are members of the denomination that funds the agency. The two I can think of are Catholic Social Services and Lutheran Child and Family Services.

[IrateCitizen]

10. Religious diversity blossomed here due to separation of church and state

... and people like this woman and her minister husband know it.

In fact, that is the most common argument coming out of the majority of religious institutions here in the United States AGAINST the "faith-based" initiatives proposed by the Bush Administration.

I wholeheartedly agree with them -- the people arguing against the Bush proposals.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. Your headline is absolutely correct

If Bush's "Christian nation" supporters knew their history and geography, they'd know that state support is absolutely the worst thing that can happen to a religious group.

Look at Western Europe, where tax-supported churches struggle to find worshippers, and Iran, where official Islam has turned off young people.

Since religious bodies in the U.S. are supported entirely by their members' money and volunteer hours, the members feel a personal involvement.

[soupkitchen]

15. The genius of the division between church and state is

that it has enabled American citizens to blame the government for problems instead of various religions.
The moment you put any "sect" in charge of solving a problem, it will no longer be the government that failed the people but the dam "whatevers."
And this turning people against each other for religious reasons is exactly what the division of church and state principle was designed to prevent.

[No2W2004]

16. Ive been reading most want nothing to do with with Faith based Initiatives

because they feel once they are beholden to the Government, then the Government can tell them what to do and how to do it.