So why was France in Vietnam? (not Bush related)

[chaska]

Anybody got a brief history on that?

[ewagner]

1. Part of the

agreement at the Postdam conference? I know it was "settlement" of some kind at the end of WWII but I don't know the exact mechanism. I think it was referred to at the time as French Indo-China?

Other DUers are much better history buffs than I and I humbly yield to their expertise'

[GP6971]

2. Was a colonial possession n/t

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

3. Pure colonialism, I think

Resource extraction. Competing with the Brits and others.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/in/Indochin.html

snip

European penetration began in the 16th cent.; in the 19th-century race for a colonial empire, the French took (1862, 1867) Cochin China as a colony and gained protectorates over Cambodia (1863), Annam (1884), and Tonkin (1884). In 1887 they formed those four states into a union of Indochina, with a governor-general at its head; Laos was added to the union in 1893.

snip

[RapidCreek]

31. Rubber plantations were what they started with.....and that lead to

much much more.

http://www.nhandan.org.vn/english/history/20020309.html

RC

[louis c]

4. French Indo-China

before WWII. Included was Viet-Nam, Thailand and Cambodia.

The French were driven out by the Japanese during WWII. Following the war, parts of Indo-China were returned to French Colonial Domination.

Viet-Nam had to fight for its independence, with a final and decisive victory against the French at Diem Ben Phou in 1954.

[Joe Chi Minh]

6. Wasn't it

a Dutch colony before that? I'm perhaps muddling it up with some other country S E Asia.

[Joe Chi Minh]

11. I think it was

Malaysia that was once a Dutch colony.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. No, Indonesia was a Dutch colony

Malaysia (then three separate colonies of Malaya, North Borneo, and Sarawak) was a British colony, as was Burma.

Thailand was the only Southeast Asian country never to be colonized.

[Joe Chi Minh]

27. Thanks

for the gen, Lydia Leftcoast. I didn't know about Indonesia or had forgotten, though I knew Malaysia used to be British.

[louis c]

13. On a map of 1953

You will see the South East Asia area referred to as "French Indo-China"

[murdoch]

25. The Japanese did NOT drive the French out of Indochina

The Japanese did NOT drive the French out of Indochina. Vichy France handed Indochina over to the Japanese.

Incidentally, the amount of money the US paid to France for the Marshall Plan was almost the exact amoutn it cost France to maintain its foreign colonies after WWII.

[Jack from Charlotte]

28. And the Vietnamese fought hard against Japan. This is the crux of...

what the VN War was all about, IMO. It's very simple. VN wanted ALL foreigners out of their country. Seems reasonable to me. They fought like hell against the Japanese. Then fought the French. They ONLY hooked up with the commies after WWII because that was the only place they could get help to get the foreigners (French) out of their country. Then they fought the US. And when we left they fought China who had some border fights with VN.

All in all....... they just wanted the invaders OUT.....

[skygazer]

5. It was a pre WWII French colonial possession

After WWII, colonialism was dying a pretty quick death. Many of the colonial holdings of various European countries had performed great things in the war and felt they deserved to have sovereignty. However, France wanted to hold onto Vietnam for various reasons, one of them being pride.

Vietnam had been largely abandoned by the French during the war and had been occupied by the Japanese. The French returned but allowed the Japanese to continue administrating in many areas while the French were re-grouping. That, and the fact that the Vietnamese wanted to be free, pissed them off and they began to rebel.

Vietnam had been occupied by many different countries for centuries - essentially, they'd been fighting off different invaders forever. The French were just the latest.

Stanley Karnow's excellent book, "Vietnam: A History" goes into it in depth, as does the accompanying video series. Also "Street Without Joy" - I foreget the author's name.

[bpilgrim]

23. till the Japanese took over, who met heavy resistance from Ho Chi Min...

America financed and advised Ho until late 1945, when Truman betrayed him and gave Indochina back to the French. The United States financed and advised the French until 1954--when we betrayed them and gave Indochina to Diem.

...

During World War II, Ho rescued our downed pilots and provided in formation on Japanese troop movements. Our Navy and OSS loved him. At the end of WWII, Ho adopted a constitution similar to ours and declared independence. He disbanded the Communist Party and called for a general election with all parties participating. The Americans on the scene were treated as heroes, loved and celebrated by everyone.

The book identifies living OSS witnesses who were there at the time and the excellent BBC documentary interviewing them and showing Ho Chi Minh declaring Vietnamese independence. Can you imagine--Ho Chi Minh quoting the American Declaration of Independence?

more...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0966182901/koreahomepage/102-0514158-1697703

peace

[onehandle]

7. Same reason we're in Iraq. To rob it blind.

France may have helped found our country, and saved us from Britain, but they're not innocent.

[chaska]

8. So the Vietnamese were fighting the French and wanted to go commie?

And that brought us in?

I woke up with a craving for those really great Vietnamese sandwiches this morning. It's sort of a French/Vietnamese invention.

Thanks, everybody.

[skygazer]

9. Ho Chi Minh wanted Vietnamese independence

He was also Communist but the main goal was to be a sovereign nation. It's ironic to me that we talk about nations being free and all that rhetoric but if they want to be Communist, that's no good.

Free elections were promised at meetings in the 50's but when it became obvious that Ho would win, they were put off and put off and we installed a puppet South Vietnamese government (can't remember if the French were still in things then but I think so) and split the country, essentially causing civil war. Brilliant.

[DODI]

10. From what I remember from history class, they simply wanted

independence. They first went to FDR in the 1930's with what amounted to our constitution with the words USA taken out and Vietnam put in. FDR said no, most likely due to alliance with France so Ho Chi Min went to the next country that would listen, the USSR and adopted their ideas in order to get their support.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

12. Yes, we sided with our white, European colonial "brothers" and reaped

the Vietnam war as a result.

I can easily envision a scenario where we supported Ho and he formed an independent gov't that was not Communist. He would still have had to fight off the French but the rest of the nonsense, the millions of Vietnamese and 50-60,000 American dead would never have happened...

[Jack_DeLeon]

33. yea

that is what is so sad about the whole thing.

[Lefty48197]

14. French Vietnamese connections are not only colonial, but cultural too

The Vietnamese language is based on French. I do not think the Vietnamese think of the French as occupiers.

[Ernesto]

17. Tell that to the dead Frenchmen

of Dien Bien Phu....... ps, I noticed little or no French influence when I attended Marine Corps Vietnamese language school in '67, just prior to my deployment.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. The Vietnamese language is NOT based on French

The French may have popularized the use of the Latin alphabet for Vietnamese, as opposed to the former Chinese characters, but the spoken languages are not the least bit alike.

[Lefty48197]

30. This is what I meant to say:

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Den/5908/language/modernwriting.html

The introduction of Christianity into Vietnam (17th century) and the French domination in the 19th century facilitated the emergence of a new form of written Vietnamese: the romanized Quoc Ngu.

1- The development of Quoc Ngu:

Around the 16th and 17th centuries, Catholic priests developed romanized scripts for different Asian languages in order to translate prayers and catechism for their missionary works. In 1548, a Japanese convert Yajiro began the romanization of the Japanese language. In Hoi An (Faifoo) there was a small community of Japanese merchants and the Catholic priests used the romanized Japanese catechism to teach the Bible to that community. It was a short jump from "romaji" to romanize the Vietnamese language; thus the Vietnamese Quoc Ngu was created. Although the romanized Vietnamese was the result of international and collective undertaking, Father Alexendre de Rhodes, a French Jesuit priest, has been widely considered as the inventor of Quoc Ngu when he published the Portuguese-Latin-Vietnamese dictionary in 1651.

While the romanization of the written languages received only a reserved welcome in China and in Japan, Quoc Ngu became an extraordinary success in Vietnam. It ultimately replaces both chu Nho and Chu Nom.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

21. Um, even tho African Americans speak English now, I think they still

think of white, Confederate America as their former enslavers.

"I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your police work, there, Lou."

[Joe Chi Minh]

24. Funny thing

about the French colonies is that, to their great credit I believe, they were, and such as remain, still are considered as part of France (namely, non-metropolitan France). They are classified in terms of three categories: overseas "departements", overseas territories and "collectivites territoriales".

I'm no expert on the subject but I believe the colonists were quite vicious when their presence was no "longer required", to the extent that in Algeria, I believe, they even removed the light bulbs! But it seems that they have regained the goodwill of at least most of their former colonies and have profitable trading ties with them.

[northlake1]

15. Rubber plantations

Vietnam was a French colony, France needed rubber, tea, sugar tobacco, etc.. Ho Chi Minh first approached President Wilson after WWI about supporting Vietnam Independence from France. Wilson rejected him.

[Ernesto]

22. northlake1....

You deserve a WELCOME ABOARD to the DU! Good to hear from ya!

[Raenelle]

16. The Church and financial adventurers got involved first,

then there was a coterie of nationalists in politics who promoted it. At times, that coterie was in power long enough to edge government involvement forward; at times, the government was dragged along unwittingly. But the people (by this time, 1870s, Church interest was down, but business and nationalist adventurers were pressing for government involvement) actually in Vietnam had learned that the best way to get the government committed was to act first, not seek permission, then the government would follow.

Almost like the Brit experience--a fit of absence of mind.

[ElkHunter]

18. The French returned to Vietnam...

...following WW2 in order to fill the void left by the Japanese imperialists. During the war France had been occupied by the Germans and were therefore in no position to resist the occupation of their former colony by the Japanese. The US supported French colonialism in Vietnam following the war as a beachhead against the expansion of communism in Asia. Indeed, the US footed much of the bill for the French presence in Vietnam following the war. After the "loss" of China to the communists in 1949, followed by the Korean war, the US was determined that no other Asian nation should fall into the communist camp. The Vietnamese then became pawns in a chess game between the capitalist and communist camps.

[Joe Chi Minh]

26. The French Foreign Legion,

I believe, fought some epic actions in Vietnam, before France's defeat and expulsion.

Some of you might be amused by an article I read recently:



“…A phone rings. The general is waiting.

Somewhat awed by the occasion, I am met by a charismatic man who reminds me of a cross between Jacques Cousteau and Gregory Peck.
X salutes and removes his beret with such crisp speed and efficiency that I actually hear it swish from his completely shaven head.

I am silent as the men pull up their chairs around the table. Major R, kepi at his side, turns and looks expectantly at me. X fixes me with a clear-eyed gaze which registers complete neutrality of emotion. The general leans back, joins his fingers and waits for me to talk. A pause follows – a silence of a kind that, I imagine, one might only find at the headquarters of the Legion. I fumble with a voice recorder and start by asking the general what he thinks of Scottish recruits. His eyes glitter as he answers me. “Blackmail, Brutality. And menace. A kind of brooding malevolence”. All three men laugh. I gather that the Scots are held in high regard. The general tells me that they make very good Legionnaires, particularly the short or skinny ones. These are always the toughest apparently.

In the spirit of conversation I agree and reminisce about once being given a hard time by a Black Watch sergeant. They laugh politely. I make a mental note never again to exchange anecdotes with Legionnaires”……

Apparently, one of the honours your General Norman Schwartzkopf was most proud of was being made an honorary Legionnaire. He was given a telephone number also, and told that, as an ex-legionnaire, any time he was in any kind of trouble anywhere in the world, he should call that number.

They tend to fight to the death, I believe, but there is a chateau and vineyard in France, where those who survive can retire and pursue some kind of job or or hobby. Somehow, I think the sentiment, "Semper Fi" would fit all concerned.

[bobbieinok]

29. there was a Senate Republican White Paper on Vietnam in 68

which opposed the warand pointed all the backg round details.

They said there that after WWII, the French freed Japanese POWs in Saigan to help them 'take back' Vietnam from Ho Chi Min.

He appealed to the US, but they wouldn't help so he turned to USSR.

Anyone else ever read this White Paper?????

[smitty]

32. Indochina

Viet Nam was part of what was called "French Indochina". It was a French colony that comprised what is now Viet Nam, Cambodia and Laos. The colony was set up in the 19th century (although there was a French presence dating back to the 18th century). Indochina was occupied by the Japanese in WWII. When that war ended the French re-occupied their colony and a new war soon broke out. Ironically, FDR, who didn't like the French, had contemplated post-war independence of Viet Nam but, unfortunately, the idea died with him.

Interesting footnote: During the Versailles peace conference of 1919 (to settle WWI); Ho Chi Mihn, aged 29, tried to meet with President Wilson to discuss self-determination for Viet Nam---but the French government prevented the meeting.