Has the abortion debate become Woman VS. Fetus

[bloom]

I think this a totally losing strategy for them.


I found this when googling Dred Scot and OB/GYN:

http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/articles/articles/2004-1-index.htm

"When I reached Flip by cell phone today, he and our walk team, with the Jim Zes and Daniel Michael families, were at the Old Courthouse in St. Louis, the same courthouse where Dred Scott sued for his freedom from slavery in 1846. In a 7 to 2 decision that brought America to the brink of Civil War, the Supreme Court declared some eleven years later that, as a slave, Dred Scott wasn't a citizen of this country, that he was not even fully human but was "personal property." In 1973, in another 7 to 2 Supreme Court decision, the same thing happened to unborn children."

Making the argument that the unborn have equal rights as born people and even GREATER rights than the MOTHER of the unborn....

I haven't been following the abortion debates all that closely - so I was surprised that Bush* could unabashedly stand by his position that the "partial-birth" abortion law did not need to have a provision for the life of the mother. As a mother - I think that is an outrage.

Of course I love my kids and would die for them - but sorry - they have to be born first, I guess there must be women willing to die for fetuses that have not yet breathed - that may or may not be born alive, anyway... but not me.

[friesianrider]

1. They ask if my life is worth more than a fetus...

And the answer is YES! My life IS much, much more valuable than a fetus. I'm sorry. Actually, I'm not sorry. My life is definitely more valuable than some bit of goo that may not even ever become a human being.

Even the Bible doesn't recognize children until they are BORN. That's why it's your BIRTHday and not your CONCEPTIONday or your Point of Viability day.

I say again: pro-choice means EVERYONE chooses what's best for THEM. Pro-life means bureaucrats and a bunch of old, grumpy men make that decision for you.

[TrustingDog]

18. I liked Kerry's Church and State response.

that's the only right answer, imho. Have your own beliefs but do not encroach on others'.

makes me so blood eyed crazy to think some of these 'pro lifers' think that killing 2 year old or 43 year old fetuses in Iraq is okey dokey and god blessed by america.

argghgghghgh!

[Hog lover]

2. Exactly the point

I see many fallacies in the anti-abortion stance as well as many inconsistencies in the right-wing attitude toward killing in general - including:

They would prefer to kill the mother to save the fetus, and it doesn't matter if the woman has other children who would be orphaned by her death.

They think nothing of killing people AFTER they are born, including sending young military people to their deaths in unnecessary and arrogant wars.

They like the death penalty, even though it costs society more and has no deterrent effect on crime - basically using it as retribution.

I am sure there are other examples.

[ant]

4. another example: illegal immigrants

Sort of...

Constitutional rights only apply to US citizens, defined as people BORN in the US (or those who become citizens later, of course). We do not grant rights based on where people are conceived.

Now, I would argue that many of the rights found in the constitution are basic human rights that should apply to all people no matter where they're BORN, but the fact remains that it is birth rather than conception that determines citizenship and therefore rights.

Also, I would've liked for someone at the debate to ask the president how it's OK to use the taxes of pacifists to fund a war. If the pro-lifers don't have to have their money spent on things they don't believe in, I'm sure the rest of us can come up with things we would like to request exceptions for as well. (I'm not a pacifist, but I did object to the Iraq war, and I'm not too fond of no-bid contracts for Halliburton, so can I just withold that money in April?)

[Misunderestimator]

24. Good point on US citizenship being determined by birth and not conception!

:thumbsup:

Imagine throwing THAT in their faces... illegal immigrants coming here to conceive, then being granted US citizenship when back in their own country they deliver.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

3. I wasn't surprised by his decision.

This issue won't go away either. I expect it to only heat up, whoever wins the election.
When will they see that women are human beings? She should have sovereignity over her body.

If only men could give birth...

[Malva Zebrina]

5. Just like a vast majority of people believe Saddam Hussein

attacked the WTC, and was possessed of nuclear weapons that threatened us, there are also many who believe a fetus, or even an embryo, is exactly like a born child with the same rights. That is fine, for them. It is not fine for anybody else but them.

Of course the mother is a piece of shit who has not a single say about her own impending death except to accept it meekly as her fate, or her punishment or some other backassed medieval barbaric concept.


It is her punishment for her sin in the garden. Something about bearing children in pain for eating a pomegranite.

Under the horrendous bill that Bush signed, the mother's health is totally ignored. If she has four other children at home--too bad--let them suffer too--they will be without a mother. Just the way it goes, honey. You die, and your fetus also, probably within hours and in the end, both are dead.

[SemperEadem]

8. the one point that the fundies always gloss over

"It is her punishment for her sin in the garden. Something about bearing children in pain for eating a pomegranite."

yeah, we all know this one. But what isn't discussed is that God told Adam not to eat the fruit. Eve hadn't been made yet, so she didn't know, nor did anyone tell her until she happened upon the serpent. Adam stood by and let Eve eat it instead of taking the fruit from her and nailing the serpent on the skull with it to drive it off, since he knew the plan from 'the horse's mouth' and chose not to follow it.

Adam had it in his power the whole time to not sink humankind into the abyss, but he chose (choice?) not to--chose to ignore his responsibility. History has blamed the fall on Eve, when she had no idea of the plan. Eve was framed.

one more Q to the fundies: explain why all female mammals on the face of the earth go through painful labor to expel their baby? Did every female creature eat of the fruit before Eve did, hence the sisterhood in labor?

[meow2u3]

6. Yes--and conservatives have made it that way

Unfortunately, Democrats have been taken in by the woman-versus-fetus model of the abortion debate, in an attempt to protect women's rights. I think this argument is flawed because it's one of the right wing's divide-and-conquer tactics that's been in operation since the beginning. The pro-choice and pro-life movements both are equally guilty of pitting the mother against the fetus (unborn kid).

My question is: why not protect both women's rights and those of fetuses? After all, most abortions are by poor women, and if those kids were born instead of aborted, we'd have more Democrats 18 years later. We also have to reconstruct the safety net protecting poor women and their kids, the one which Republicans systematically are destroying.

The pro-life left believes a woman's life and the life of a fetus are equally important. Neopros also oppose the death penalty (with exceptions for extreme cases), aggressive war, euthanasia (on the grounds that disabled life is important), and racism/sexism.

[bloom]

9. I think it is a horrible thing

to paint women as selfish or as murderers for getting abortions.

I think it takes it to a whole other level that I think all women on any side of the fence (including those sitting on top) with any sense should oppose when the debate is framed such as that fetuses have greater rights than the women who are carrying them.

Which is why I think it is a losing strategy. I think there could have been well-intended women convinced that abortions done for any other reason than health of the woman should be opposed - or at least not chosen. I don't think any sane woman should support this putting of fetus rights over women's right to live for any reason. With the anti-abortion people painting themselves as out of touch with reality - I think they could lose support for all of their positions.

[Alenne]

11. The woman's rights trump the fetus

because it is her body. They both don't have equal rights in the situation and you can't have equal rights in this situation. Either the fetus is more important or the woman is.

You assume that the poor women are getting abortions because they are poor. They may be getting an abortion because they do not want to have a child. Poor women should not be forced to have babies because we need more Democrats.

[Malva Zebrina]

15. Pregnancy should never be forced upon any woman by anyone

It was tried in Romania by Nicolae Ceausescu. All women were required to be examined every three months to determine their reproductive state--pregnant or not. If they were caught aborting, they were arrested or punished. Soon the state orphanages were overflowing with babies. Romania is poor and people just could not care for these infants. They were so overflowing that babies were placed on the floor, inches apart from each other for lack of cribs. Many of them ended up as street children-living on their own on the street, surviving by whatever means they could-a phenomena seen after this debacle

[bloom]

17. Talk about no constitutional rights...

And we can't take anything for granted around here what with the Patriot Act and all.

It's bad enough to think of "Stupid White Men" taking women's rights away, I hate to think of women not standing up for their own rights and even encouraging the removal of rights - to determine what is best for one's self and esp. the right of women to life. Period.

[Malva Zebrina]

26. sometimes , women are their own worst enemies

I hate to say that, but historically, that has been the case.

I don't know much about the suffrage movement, but I do know at that time, there was no women's liberation movement. Women were inclined to be submissive to their husband's views and the strong women who fought for the right to have the women's vote were mercilessly attacked by the entrenched religious powers.

Many, as it has been said, voted as their husband did. At that time few women actually worked at a job outside their home. Certain fields were prohibited to them--ie doctors, lawyers and professional business women. Just not there for them. That all changed after the feminist movement in the sixties and seventies.

Women owe a lot to the feminist movement. Many will not admit it, viewing that movement as anathema. Yet it gave them what they have today. :shrug:


Yet, as they enjoy the fruits of that movement and the efforts of strong women to fight for it, they turn against that movement as if it were some type of "communist" undertaking because Roe vs Wade, for instance, went against their religion. It is the suffragette redux.

[Warpy]

12. There can't be equal protection of both

until we find out how to make pregnancy and childbirth safe, comfortable, and benign.

They are not. They are very risky processes. The economic dislocation of bearing unwanted children is bad enough, but there is an attendant risk to life and health.

It must be voluntary. If a woman feels the need to defend her life against an unwanted pregnancy, so be it. We all have the right to self defense.

Antiabortion laws that protect the sainted fetus and forget the woman's need to defend her life, health, finances, and social support system will only drive abortion into the hands of unsafe, illegal practitioners. We've been through this before, thank you very much, and the result was maimed and murdered women.

If fetus protectors are so eager to murder women, let them buy guns.

[bloom]

13. Most abortions NOT by poor women - "27% live below the poverty line"

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:8AhOAMhE3XMJ:www.theaccessproject.org/getting_started/downloads/FactsAboutAbortion.doc+income+of+women+getting+abortions&hl=en


• Each year almost 50% of all pregnancies among American women are unintended. 


• Every year, about 1.3 million women choose to terminate their pregnancy with abortion 


• 40% of all women of reproductive age in America today will have had an abortion by the time they reach the age of 45. 


• Women who have abortions are from all racial, ethnic, socioeconomic, and religious backgrounds. 



• Of the women having an abortion


• 31% are in school


• 68% are employed


• 27% live below the poverty line and another 31% are low income 


• Over 80% of the women getting abortions are unmarried. 


• About 90% of all abortions are obtained in the first 12 weeks. 


• More than half (53%) of the women getting abortions reported that they used contraception during the month they became pregnant 


• If abortion were used as birth control a typical woman would have 30 abortions in her lifetime 



• 52% of the women having an abortion have never had a previous one. 


• Many women who have abortions believe it is the most responsible thing a woman can do; 52% plan to have children at another time. 


• About 16,000 women each year have abortions because they have become pregnant as a result of rape or incest. 



• Research shows that relief is the most common emotion following an abortion. Women at risk for poor post-abortion adjustment are those who do not get the support they need, or whose abortion decisions are actively opposed by people who are important to them. 


• The top reasons why someone has an abortion include:


Finances (21%)


Not ready (21%)


Life changes (16%)


Too young (11%) 
 
 


• Barriers women experience to getting an abortion:


Distance


Cost/lack of insurance


State restrictions 



• Reasons for late term abortions:


Didn'’t realize I was pregnant (71%)


Difficulty making arrangements for procedure (48%)


Afraid to tell parents or partner (33%)


Time needed to make decision (24%) 



• Catholics represent 27% of women who have abortions as compared to 43% who are Protestants. 

[Hog lover]

22. thank you for the stats -

we need to keep this info handy to rebut anti-choice nuts

[loyalsister]

7. If a woman is willing to do so

it's her choice. But, no woman should be required to die for a fetus!

[MatrixEscape]

10. Well first ...

They have to reclassify the womb as a Fetus Delivery System for the State. Then it will be much easier to control and regulate those who possess them.

Right now, I would rather be a fetus based on some people's glorification of that status as opposed to those already birthed.

If you go by Genesis, Adam was not a living Soul until God breathed the Breath of Life, (after forming him from clay) into his nostrils. I won't argue here about "forming" vs. being "born", but that's my definition of when life begins, personally.

[ladybugg33]

14. I don't know about all abortions but 'partial birth abortion' to save the

life of the mother should be a no brainer for Christians. If not, then they don't even believe in their own Bible. First of all, there is nothing about "abortion" in the Bible. Second, in Genesis, God made man and woman "one" (husband and wife). How could a man choose to allow his wife to die over a fetus? He can have more children, but he can't get another wife. When Kerry is asked about his vote on this, he should ask the question of any man asking it, what would you do if the life of your dear wife was at stake? What caring, loving husband can really support a bill that makes no provision for saving the life of your wife? Why would you go to fight in an illegal and immoral war to fight for the freedom of a wife you would allow to die on the operating table? Makes no sense to me.

[the_outsider]

16. Their logic is simple actually if you think about it

A fetus has a 0.5 probability of turning out to be a male and 0.5 probability of turning out to be a female.

If a male is worth x and a female is worth y, then the worth of a fetus is 0.5(x + y).

Now since we all know,
x > y (you are not going to argue that, are you stupid women)

=> 0.5 x > 0.5y
=> 0.5x + 0.5y > y
=>0.5(x+y) > y

So worth of a fetus > worth of its mother. I always knew * was a math whiz.

[kayell]

19. Ooooh, but that fetus could be a *drum roll* BOY!

You wouldn't want to put a woman above a male, now would you?

/channel rw misogynist

[bloom]

20. I guess that explains it....

that's why it seems like a gender war that he is leading.




He's unwittingly setting the stage for a Hillary win.

[murdoch]

21. Government involvement

The Dred Scott decision that the government would get involved, and rob people of their liberty and make them slaves.

The Roe v. Rade decision was that government was not going to become involved in women's choice.

It's a world of difference - Dred Scott was the US government actively robbing people of their liberty. Roe v. Wade means government will have no role in a woman's personal choice.

[Iris]

23. And further, should you be asked to die for an unborn child when

you already have children who need a mother?

[SarahB]

25. Frequently, late term abortions are done also...

Because the baby is ancephalic (no brain and will die a few hours after birth). Yep, we should make a women carry a fetus like this to term. :eyes: :wtf: