My conversation this morning with a Bush supporter

[Jo March]

Alas, it ended with him stomping off to his cubicle ranting about how he is stupid and shouldn't have gone to college to get his B.S. in PoliSci.

This is the guy's argument for voting for Bush:

1) It's punishment for us liberals electing Clinton twice
2) Bush has put more money in our pockets with:
a. the tax "refund" check
b. the tax relief bill

Then he told me that I was the only person in America who isn't seeing benefit from the tax cuts. Whatever.

WTF? He has a degree?

I just wouldn't give in and he got mad. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but I argued back. He is a lost cause, I'm sure, but it's amazing to me that he is voting for Bush. His wife is a teacher, for crying out loud!!!

It just amazes me that the majority of IT folks that I've met are voting for Bush as their jobs are being outsourced out from under them.

[JuniorPlankton]

1. People like that are a lost cause for this election

At this point you cannot expect to convert a * supporter.
I try to concentrate on people who didn't plan to vote, but if they do, would vote for JK.

[Jo March]

6. He seems so normal, you know?

His wife is a teacher. He's worried about paying for health care and daycare for his kids. Said he'd vote for Kerry if he "knew" that Kerry would do all of the things that he says he'll do. I asked him if Bush has done anything that he said he'd do. He said, "Bush has done a lot of great things." I said, "Name one." He didn't. He just kept repeating that Kerry hasn't done anything in the Senate.

[JuniorPlankton]

12. I know!

It has caused so much pain to me over the last few years!
I have a number of these guys at work (I work for an insurance company, though in Massachusetts) and they are like that too. Reasonable people that might agree with you on most points about *. And then they'd say: "I think I am going to vote for Bush".

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Mary0505]

19. Hi I am new. Plz bear with me

I can't start a thread yet. Sorry to intrude. Saw this in another forum. So sad.


http://www.channel4.com/news/2004/10/week_2/07_iraq.html

[JuniorPlankton]

28. Yes, it's appaling!

Welcome to DU!!!!

:grouphug:

[Jo March]

33. Welcome to DU, Mary0505

Nice to have you! Keep replying and you'll be able to post in no time!

Welcome!! :hi:

[Mary0505]

49. Hi

Thank you.

This is my first year keeping up on politics. There has never in history been a more important time.

[Jo March]

21. I'm still in the middle of this debate with him btw

It is incredible. He is a smart, smart guy.

[JuniorPlankton]

26. Is there anything I can help you with?

:pals:

[Jo March]

29. Yes! He seems stuck on the tax thing and he said that Bush

inheireted a recession and Bush "cured" the recession! LOL! That is too funny but I am trying to get more info on the recession and how it's been cured.

I asked him to read Kerry's plan for America booklet. He might read it.

I could also use info on how bad Bush has been for teachers and schools in general.


Thank you, thank you!!!! :)

[JuniorPlankton]

38. First of all, the amount of tax s is misleading

http://factcheck.org/article145.html
http://factcheck.org/article118.html

And here is what teachers think about *'s plan
(it's replete with stats)
http://www.ift-aft.org/about/resolutions/2003_spec3.htm

[Jo March]

42. Oh, I could kiss you!!!

Thank you so much. This helps me so much

[JuniorPlankton]

47. You are welcome!

Kiss me?

Nothing wrong with that says this straight male :)

:kick:

[Jo March]

48. Well, here goes

Running towards you, jumping up on you, wrapping my arms and legs around you and......

BIG SMOOCH right on the mouth!!!

[tom_paine]

13. So must they have (well, many...not all) in Germany 1933

or Rome 48 BC.

Always these cultist ofpersonality, be they Busheviks or slobbering over Stalin or Ferdinand Marcos.

They seem normal.

they aren't.

Someone who has slavishly given themselves over to dogma is beyond reason, and Goebbels v.20, like v1.0 is designed to create unthinking Party Recruits and innoculate them against 'irrationality' by making them automatically disallow information that isn't Party Approved or from a Party Approved Organ.

Be that organ Der Sturmer, Soviet Pravda, or Faux News.

[Ravenseye]

16. Thats the key, they can't name one...

..except for tax cuts. I've talked with a number of people and the only thing they can reasonably defend is the tax cuts. I say reasonably, because they have a defensible position, whether or not I agree with the corresponding economics.

I like that though. Then you're actually talking about an issue, and the thought and study behind it.

The rest of the time every other line that Bush supporters have been fed just don't hold up under reasonable discussion. There are too many holes, questions, and problems. So people end up getting upset and stomping around/away. Or they just dismiss it and don't even listen to the arguments.

"Oh you poor silly ignorant liberal!"

I'd rather people get upset, because it shows they're thinking, than people be dismissive. Then it's proof they're not even thinking about it at all and just totally brainwashed.

[Jo March]

22. That's true

I'll stay and fight until the end. I'm not that great of a debator because I get so emotional but I'll try to stay calm and talk to those who want to talk to me.

[doubleplusgood]

2. "Bush has put more money in our pockets" ?

More money in our pockets ? What about $2.00/gallon gas ? Or 17% increase in Medicare premiums ? Or greater-than-rate-of-inflation increases in cost of natural gas, electricity, cable TV, etc. ?
These increases are private "taxes" & take money out of your pocket just as sure as a government tax does, albeit without any public benefit being realized in the form better infrastructure, etc.

[Jo March]

7. I am paying more for everything

This guy says that Bush pulled us out of a recession. Mind you, we work right across from the Bank of America headquarters building. You remember Bank of America, right? They just announced that they are going to lay off 4500 workers.

[FizzFuzz]

15. I tried to explain this to a coworker who ws praising the Lord for his

blessings under the Smirk regime. Sham Hammity is a journalist of the highest integrity. The abstinence program works. Watching Fux News and CNN is getting a balanced view on the world. God tells him Bush is the right man.

*sigh*

[Suziq]

50. Please Don't Forget . . .

INCREASED property taxes! The states have to make up the shortfall somehow if they want to provide any services.

I guess the Pukes do not like roads without potholes, police, fire protection, good public schools, etc. They make me sick!

:grr:

[Catfight]

3. It's like Michael Moore said in FH911, the very system that keeps

people down is the very system they support.

[Jo March]

4. Ah, yes, but F/911 is filled with 56 lies, don't you know?

He told me that as well. I asked him if he saw it and he said, "It has 56 factual lies (?) in it. Why would I watch it?" I asked, "How do you know that it has lies in it if you haven't seen it?" He replied, "I won't put a dime in that man's pocket. I won't pay to see it." I said sweetly, "I have it on DVD. I'll be happy to let you borrow it."

He mumbled something that kind of sounded like "okay" but I couldn't be sure.

[skygazer]

My dad went off about F911

Michael Moore is a "slimebag" and a lier and this, that and the other thing. I asked him, "did you see the movie" and he blew up. "NO, and I won't! It's a piece of filth!"

How the hell do you know that if you haven't seen it? How do you know it's full of lies if you've never heard them?

These people have no logic.

[Jo March]

31. skygazer, you are so right!

That's why I asked him if he had seen it. I'll loan it to him, believe you me.

I haven't read Ann Coulter's books and I would never say that they are filled with lies because I have no clue. I'm sure they are but in order to speak intelligently about them, I'd have to read them.

And then wash my eyes. :P

[Jo March]

8. Holding the hand that holds them down

I've never understood that mentality.

[Oreo]

5. This one isn't!

I wouldn't say a majority. The other thing to consider is that the outsourced IT jobs are manily programming. Management and Systems Administration are staying.

[Jo March]

9. The majority that I've met are bush supporters :(

Management will slowly be cut out so managers aren't even safe. I know. I managed a Help Desk and was removed because our department was too "manager heavy." Sys Admin jobs will be scaled back as well as server monitor programs get better.

I don't think that any IT jobs are safe, frankly. I've moved into IT Project Management but I still don't feel safe. Meanwhile I'm watching my friends lose their jobs. It's frustrating.

[RainDog]

10. Who is going to pay for the Bush deficit?

how is the Bush deficit going to put more money in his pocket?

ask him if he has a credit card. ask him what would happen if he only paid the minimum payment on a, say, million dollar debt each month. ask him how much of that payment would go to principle and how much would go to finance that debt.

ask him how he can think that what Bush is doing is any different than what he KNOWS is reality.

[Jo March]

32. Ah yes, but the credit card company sent him $75 to switch his

card to theirs! So, the credit card "gave" him $75! Wow! Wasn't that so kind of them to do something so selfless?

Oh, this defies imagination!

[Mister K]

11. Not to get philosophical on this site but.....

It's called Hegemony. It is the superiority of one social class over another (without the use for force) and it is present in the US and many other countries.


There are many articles published on this subject:

http://www.dangerouscitizen.com/Articles/244.aspx

[MsTryska]

14. Ask him how much he paid in State Taxes last year...

I bet ya anything it was more thna he paid the year before that.

the thing about the federal tax cuts is, that the pinch ont he gov got shifted to the states, who then hiked taxes to compensate.

i experienced a 100% increase in state taxes last year, and paid exactly 1.9% less in federal taxes last year.

[Jo March]

25. I paid more everywhere - fed, state

and any other area that I can think of. Jeez.

[gratuitous]

17. Odd that he thinks Bush put more money in his pocket

Does he subtract from the total that Bush put in his pocket his increased cost of gassing up his car? Don't forget increased insurance premiums. And if he goes to national parks, the user fees. Not to mention the increase in state and local taxes that he's surely seen to make up for federal revenue sharing shortfalls. And the increased cost of other goods and services. If his credit card rate has gone up, that can be tied to the scarcity of available money due to the burgeoning budget deficits, so there's more money out of his pocket.

Just because he's not paying it to the federal government (where he has a say, however nominal, in how it's spent), doesn't mean he's not being "taxed" by large corporate interests (which don't give a tin shit about what he thinks about their spending habits).

[Zero Gravitas]

18. There was no "tax cut"

just a tax deferment to repaid later with interest. Bush is running a huge deficit and that money will have to be repaid eventually. Of course these short sighted bastards don't care about the long term so long as they get their cut now.

[Jo March]

34. WPE, can you come to Charlotte real quick and help me out? ;)

You just put it quite clearly so anyone can understand. There always is a trade-off. $600 bucks now and who knows how much later. Nobody rides for free.

[crispini]

20. Read George Lakoff !

If the facts don't fit the cognitive frame a person is using, the frame is kept and the facts are thrown away. We as liberals have to do a better job framing the debate.

These people are NOT insane. They are identifying themselves with the Repub party and voting their values, not issues. WE HAVE TO GET BETTER AT DOING THIS!

Please read "Don't Think of an Elephant," new book by George Lakoff. It's short and sweet and it will make you understand why people think the way they do.

[Jo March]

24. I will have to read taht

Too many times I've argued with people who will insist to their dying end that the sky is green because Bush says it is so. The freaking sky isn't green! I then get called a stupid liberal.

[crispini]

41. Yes, do, it's great.

Reframing is like conversational ju-jitsu. You don't try to argue back and forth. You'll never win that. You come up with an idea that completely makes the argument change. Like on Iraq.

CONSERVATIVE: How is X or Y or Z going to help in Iraq?

YOU: Well, I have to admit, I personally am not a foreign policy expert. I have read Kerry's plan online and it makes sense to me. But here's the really important thing to me. I trust Kerry to do the right thing more than I trust George W. Bush because he's seen combat, he's got experience in messy war situations, and I think he can be trusted to do the right thing.

[Jo March]

43. Ah, I see how that works

You put it back on them, right? So now they have to explain away Kerry's experience or explain Bush's lack of it. Is that how it works?

Interesting.

[crispini]

53. Exactly, it's like a sidestep. Instead of arguing facts

you sort of counter-propose a different point of view.

There are some sample pages from the book you can download here to get a better idea:

http://www.chelseagreen.com/2004/items/elephant

[TexasSissy]

23. Wait til his 401K gets hit with increased taxs to pay off the deficit.

Repubs - "It's all about ME, isn't it?" Not about those less fortunate, the unemployed, the forests, the air - it's all about how much $$$ I can get in my hands in the near future, and that's about it.

[Jo March]

35. TexasSissy, isn't that pathetic?

It shouldn't be all about "me" to these people but it is. Don't they know that we will all pay a price? Sooner or later we will. We will have to pay for their greed.

[TexasSissy]

54. Yes, I really do think that. Not just a political rant.

The Repubs are a "ME" group of people. We all are to some extent, but to them it's a religion (pun intended).

[Toucano]

27. What is it about the IT industry?

I thought they were renegades who took casual Friday and expanded it to the norm. No button-down status quo for them, huh?

Does it have something to do with sitting on their asses all day? Is that keeping their brains from getting oxygen?

[Jo March]

30. I've been in IT since '96 and I can't figure it out myself

I think that they get in this little world and don't see outside of it. I don't know. IT folks are so, so intelligent but most of the IT people I've met are Bush supporters. It's just...odd.

[B3Nut]

37. I'm in IT...

And my boss and I are basically the IT department. We're both voting for Kerry, even though we both voted for (*) last election. We can see right through this empty suit. I find it odd that techies would support the current sitting madman seeing how dangerous to civil liberties and freedom of expression the rethuglicans are. I'm so sick of them I can't stand it...and I used to be one. Go Kerry go!

Todd P

[Jo March]

44. Go ahead on, B3Nut! Welcome to DU!!

It's like I said, it's like there is a bubble and some IT people don't see around or out of it. It's just amazing.

Again, welcome to DU! Post often! :)

[info being]

40. Those are the ones who have been laid off...

Corporations cut Liberals first and keep the Conservatives around.

[greekspeak]

36. "It's punishment for us liberals electing Clinton twice"

That will teach us a lesson! Huh? Strangely enough, I have a similar anecdote about the 2000 election. A good freind of mine at the time had a brother that, ironically, lived here in Florida. His brother was voting for Shrub. Why? Because the other party had had 8 years and it was the other party's turn. If that isn't lame, I do not know what is.How does one decide, "well, this guy is a superficial, idiotic jerk-off who uses Christianity as a tool and wants to put all but 1% of us in the poor house. But it is his turn." I guess if we all took turns and made happy plates after every meal and cleaned up our messes inch by inch, row by row, we would all be in some sort of hap-hap-happy Donna Reed world?

[Jo March]

45. That one blew me away

I said, "Yeah, voting for endless war, that'll show us, won't it?" He didn't appreciate that too much.

[alexisfree]

39. it takes hard work to be a republican....

[Jo March]

46. "The adults are in charge"!

LOL!

[mitchum]

51. I won't shed a tear when that idiot's job moves to Bangalore

[librechik]

52. you should read Krugman's "factcheck in advance' article

lots of ammo!

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/12/opinion/12krugman.html?oref=login&n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists%2fPaul%20Krugman