WE made bin Laden evil.

[Dangerman]

I heard on a political ad about a senator saying that Osama bin Laden was an "evil" terrorist and must be brought to justice.

He would not been THAT evil if we...

- Had not bomb the living hell of Iraq and brought it devastating sanctions for the past 12 years
- Had not supported Israel and their ruthless efforts to occupy Palestinian territory
- Had pulled out troops from Saudi Arabia immediately after the first Gulf War

You know, it's the Bush cartel and Bush Sr. who were responsible for forcing bin Laden to murder 3,000 innocent lives on 9/11, and when Chimpy murdered over 10,000 civilians in Iraq and occupying the country illegally and immorally, he is going to make bin Laden, and his possible replacements when he is captured, MORE evil.

Shame on us.

[fsbooks]

1. We also trained him and put in the Taliban

Geopolitical fights with the Soviets trumped all talk of freedom under Reagan.

[MercutioATC]

2. Wrong. Bin Laden was funded by Carter originally.

...through Pakistan to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

[fsbooks]

9. OK, partially wrong.

Carter started it, but it was still "US".

[MercutioATC]

14. You're right.

I was just pointing out that our foreign policy mistakes definitely cross party lines.

We need to come up with a better foreign policy philosophy than "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". We're guilty of this on both sides of the aisle.

[TahitiNut]

16. I don't think that's really our foreign policy.

The only consistent criteria I can see in what passes for a foreign policy are the corporate (ownership) "interests" in whatever nation is at issue. If we were to list the various nations of the world in order of their liberal/democratic economic policies, I'd say we're far more likely to regard an autocratic regime as an "ally"/"friend" where the sale/exploitation of national resources benefit a narrow elite rather than the people of that nation in general.

We tend to favor countries where 'private' (corporate) ownership of their national resources is permitted/encouraged, or where their working class can be exploited for foreign-owned "plantation" interests.

[MercutioATC]

19. I agree that that's a factor, too.

I do still believe that our government (regardless of controllong party) tends to look at nearly everything on an extremely short-term basis. We supported the tribal warlords in Afghanistan so they'd fight the Soviets. We then had some of those warlords later shoot those weapons pack at us, so we provided the OTHER warlords with money and weapons.

It's sad, really. We should be able to do better than this.

[Aidoneus]

26. Usamah was not involved until after Carter's crew passed..

the Afghan opposition was first indeed backed by the bankrupted brain-trusts in Carter's black-ops brigade, complete with Zbig in a turbanned photo-op, but in that time it was Afghans like Hekmatyar that were first tapped. When he turned out to be a bit more colourful than Jefferson, they favoured more the internationalist approach of Abdullah `Azzam & the young bin Laden and got the rest of the world on board. A whole coalition of the willing, as it were. Brzezinski's baby originally, but those other parts came later.

The Taliban were NOT the force favoured by the Carter-Reagan fundings. They in fact threw out the warlords that were, and helped to bring stability to the fractures that their predecessors had wrought. And, burned the poppy crops, earning a permanent position on the shitlist of the Russian mafia & American CIA--but receiving a thank-you from the Burmese growers for the nudge up to #1.

[leftynyc]

3. Forcing Bin Laden to murder 3000!!!!!

I think you're terribly misguided. I don't care what that sob thinks of our foreign policy, he MURDERED 3000 of my NY neighbors - I hope he burns in hell. I can't believe he's a victim in your eyes.

[TexasSissy]

6. This is true. The main post is example of why so many people are voting

for Bush.

To even suggest that any one of us is responsible for the evil of someone else is nonsensical and just flat wrong. We're not responsible for Ted Bundy's actions, either.

Evil people are directly responsible for their own evil actions. Talk about taking responsibility and the buck stopping somewhere, the buck stops with bin Laden on the consequences of his actions.

To say that bin Laden used as an excuse our misguided policies in the Middle East is one thing, but to say that we CAUSED someone to kill innocent people is ludicrous. If anyone is responsible for bin Laden, it's his parents or whoever raised him to be the way he is. But ultimately, as an adult, bin Laden is the only one directly responsible for his evil actions.

[frylock]

7. he MURDERED 3000 of my NY neighbors.. where's the evidence?

Bin Laden extradition raised (BBC - Wednesday, 12 September, 2001)

A leading spokesman for Afghanistan's ruling Taleban militia has said it would consider extraditing terror suspect Osama Bin Laden based on US evidence. US officials have described the Saudi-born dissident as their chief suspect in off-the record briefings, saying they have intercepted messages between his people talking about the attacks.

The Taleban ambassador to neighbouring Pakistan, Abdul Salam Zaeef, said, when asked about Mr Bin Laden's possible extradition, that the first step would be to discuss any US evidence.

<snip>

Mr Bin Laden has denied involvement in the attacks on the United States, but says he fully supports such "daring acts".

<more>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1539468.stm

[NecessaryOnslaught]

31. Who needs evidence, the teevee said al kada did it.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm

[TahitiNut]

12. It wasn't "murder" if it was an act of war.

While one might call it a "war crime," one would then be required to call the invasion of Iraq a "war crime" under exactly the same criteria.

I get really tired of this double standard. The events of September 11th were either acts of war or criminal acts. If they were acts of war, then civil standards of 'murder' or 'homicide' just don't apply.

When the reichbots ridicule the notion that 'terrorism' is a matter of law enforcement instead of a "war" I wonder why they then accept the notion that the Patriot Act (i.e. law enforcement) was a rational reaction necessitated by 9/11 and the "war on terror".

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[troublemaker]

5. The ideas expressed in this post are consistent with the ideas of morons

[TahitiNut]

17. Does that mean you agree?

:evilgrin: I guess so. :shrug:

[Bluzmann57]

8. Its very simple

Bin Laden is nothing more than a mass murdering piece of shit. He has hated America and Americans since he was born and will continue to hate us until he dies. Quite frankly, I find your post offensive. Trying to deflect blame for Bin Laden being a mass murdering piece of shit is ignorance. Now take your lips off the bong, back away, and sober up.

[MadHound]

15. Actually, you're wrong on one crucial point friend.

Bin Laden hasn't ". . . hated America and Americans since he was born ". He has only hated America, and Americans since the late '80s, early '90s. Before that, he was good friends with America, and Americans. Let me explain.

Back in 1979 Afghanistan was invaded by the Soviet Union, and as a consequence a jihad was called down upon them. Many young restless men from the ME answered the call, and swarmed to join the resistance, the mujahadeen, or as Reagan subsequently called them, freedom fighters. One man in particular made his mark, one Osama bin Laden. His star rose fast, and shined brightly, and soon attracted the attention of the CIA, who were quickly turning the war in Afghanistan into a US proxy war against the Soviets.

The CIA started funneling arms and money to bin Laden, even had him and some of his men over to the US for some specialized CIA training. The CIA also encouraged a radical form of Islam, Wahabiism, that was making the rounds amongst these "freedom fighters" For although this sect was very violent, and very fundemental, it created amongst its followers in the mujahadeen a fierece will to fight and win, and the CIA thought that this was a good thing, and fostered it whereever they found it.

Well, we all know that the Soviets, despite bombing Afghanistan back to the stone age, lost their encounter in Afghanistan. It was a tremendous blow to the Soviets, and was seen as a major contributing factor to the Soviet breakup in subsequent years. But Afghanistan was left badly damaged, with little infrastructure,few resources, and staring at a massive rebuilding. Thinking that the US would be grateful for their defeat of the "Evil Empire", Osama, a victorious leader, and others in Afghanistan turned to the US for help, monetary and otherwise.

Well, the US turned them down flat, leaving Afghanistan to fend for itself, while we reaped the benefits of what the Afghans had wrought. The Soviet Union imploded, and we reaped the peace dividend, yet ignored those one time allies who had contributed mightly so that we could be more secure. This was ingratitude of the highest order, and angered bin Laden so much that America forever became his mortal enemy. Using the fanatic religion set up and fostered by the CIA, word of the US's treason soon spread, and a fatwah was called by this radical fundementalist sect of Islam. And now, we who sowed the wind, are reaping the whirlwind.

Am I excusing bin Laden's actions? No, what he did was wrong. But the actions of our own government agencies, and the culpability they are responsible for cannot be overlooked or excused. At the expense of a few billion dollars, we could have made a long term friend and ally of bin Laden and his followers. Instead, we ditched him in his time of need, and as a consequence all of us are being punished by the blowback from that fateful decision.

[JVS]

10. He sucked when he was fighting the Soviets and he sucks now.

[RainDog]

11. this is such bullshit

it makes me sick to see this sort of crap posted on this site. I was just going to ignore it, but I can't.

since when is bin Laden not responsible for his own actions and decisions?

since when is bin Laden not acting out of his self interest?

since when has he given a shit about the Palestinians except to the degree that it gives him creds in his own pursuit of power at the expense of others?

bin Laden embraces a repressive ideology toward females, as do ALL fundamentalists, and thus he is my enemy and the enemy of every other female in the world who believes she deserves to be treated as an adult human.

I cannot help but think that you are some sort of freeper who has posted this innane "reasoning" on this site.

[Centre_Left]

13. Try this reasoning...

"So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation...."

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/49.htm

[hiphopnation]

24. Spot on.

Thanks! :thumbsup:

[Centre_Left]

27. More reasoning...

"Further militarization of Colombia’s internal conflicts, deeply rooted in the awful history of a rich society with extreme poverty and violence, had the predictable consequences for the tortured population, and also led guerrilla forces to become yet another army terrorizing the peasantry, and more recently, the urban population as well." --Noam Chomsky

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805074007/lewrockwell/102-9398737-9304166

And more here:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/ips/lobe135.html

The US government is creating new enemies around the world even as we speak. Who will we blame then when radicals in these increasingly militarized countries inevitably turn their attention to us?

[RainDog]

29. these statements have nothing to do with the original statement

that "we made OBL evil."

did we also make Saddam evil?

did we also make the Ayatollah evil?

did we also make Sharon evil?

did we make the House of Saud evil?

it is a bullshit statement.

nations have no friends, they have interests. If Israel would not let us park our secret military bases there, we would make a deal with another nation that would...and we do just that.

Is Mushareff evil? Are his fundie Islamist opponents evil?

who is good in this world in the realm of geopolitics? while I totally disagree with what was done in Latin America by the U.S. for a long, long time, we did not, for instance MAKE Pinochet evil.

Pinochet WAS evil, or whatever you want to call it, and we aligned ourselves with him. there's a great big difference in those two issues.

Osama WAS evil, and we aligned with him against Russia, in order to create a "vietnam" for Russia. now we reap the consequences of those actions.

this is the way of the world, and it sucks.

If you know any other nation that operates differently, please let me know.

[Bluerthanblue]

20. yes indeed OBL is

responsible for his actions-

but had the US not USED and armed and trained the people of Afganistan in our 'misguided' and EVIL desire to 'halt communisum' He would never have had the knowledge, means, or reason to do what he did-

like it or not 'we' own some responsibility in this hell-

Since when has the US not acted out of 'our own' self intrest in the Middle East (especially) and elsewhere in the world-

Let's be honest for a change- it 'ain't' us against them-
it's us against the worst aspects that exist within each one of us-

We lied, stole, and murdered the Native Americans who lived here long before 'us'.... shall we return the 'land' to it's 'rightful' inhabitants- and live in exile?

America is no less hypocritical or 'evil' than most of the people we choose to hate- it just helps us to sleep better at night to think we are so 'different'- Human'kind' is equally capabile and guilty of evil actions-

EYES WIDE OPEN

[sysoprock]

21. Agreed, this kind of shit gives plenty of ammo....

to the "liberals hate America" argument.

This is the kind of shit my vegan punk-rock ex-girlfriend would spew out.

[rinsd]

18. Yeah, we deserved it....

:eyes:

[prayin4rain]

22. I'm sorry to be rude, but that is ridiculous....

I know he has seen some of the bad things America does and I am sure this has influenced him. He had more effective and non-violent avenues to pursue. Nothing could turn me into a murderer.

[belle]

23. Ah, no, we didn't make anyone become "evil." However...

we did help to make him powerful.

[hiphopnation]

25. Oversimplification.

While you embark on some decent points here but you wish to sum them up too quickly and easily for my palate. You're on the right track but you need to read up some more. Start with F 9/11 if you haven't yet seen it.

[Disturbed]

28. 1st Gulf War.

Osama also volunteered to help the U.S. Coalition for the 1st War On Iraq but he was turned down. He was angry about that, as well. The planning for 911 Attack started a few years before it took place. The attack cannot be blamed on the Bush Admin. By invading Iraq again the Bush Admin. has widened the resentment and hostility toward U.S. Govt. in the ME and expanded the ire of Muslims and the ranks of the orgs that are fighting against U.S. policies. Saying that the U.S. is to responsible for the 911 Attack can in some part be correct. No proof has ever been shown that Osama bin Laden was directly responsible for it, yet a bounty for him Dead or Alive of $30 Million has been offered.

Things are not usually as simple as many wish them to be.

[UpsideDownFlag]

30. should we be surprised when rush and hannity use this post to make us look

extreme? or did you tell them it was coming?

:eyes:

[HEyHEY]

32. Ummm.....no

While that may have provoked him, he was evil long before we came along.