OMG My Son Just Enlisted In The Marines

[Sideways]

Got the email from Benjamin out of the blue. I am in Italy and he is in Saint Paul. I knew he had been torn about the radical right high jacking the military and patriotism but I had no idea he would do this.

He is set to go to San Diego 11/01. We are going to be talking tonight 3AM my time in Italy, the same time the debate starts. I will let you guys know what is happening. I am sick and frightened and so fucking distraught. I am just really fucking worried. What has my child gotten himself into?

[omnithrope]

1. I'm so sorry.

I hope he comes of it all safe and sound.
I'm sorry.

[IrateCitizen]

2. He still has time to back out before his report date.

If he decides that he really doesn't want to do this, he can back out prior to reporting for basic training. It's perfectly legal (despite what a recruiter will tell him), and very easy to do. The GI Rights Hotline can help him with the process.

Do you know why, exactly, he joined? That might help explain things a bit.

[David Dunham]

3. I think it's his decision to make.

[Stephanie]

Of course it is - and if he decides he's made a mistake

it's great to know he has the option to back out.

[omnithrope]

6. Of course it is...

But doesn't a mother have the obligation to dissuade her son from going into the military if she thinks it's wrong?

[IrateCitizen]

49. Of course it is -- and it should be an informed decision.

Also, he should not feel trapped by it needlessly should he change his mind after the fact.

[Sideways]

5. No Chris I Don't Know

I will get the information from him later tonight. Thanks for the info.

[6th Borough]

14. IF he changes his mind, he can always fail training.

Marines go through a pretty ruthless bootcamp. There are plenty of people who wanted to be Marines who have dropped out of bootcamp. Happened to the son of a family friend.

The Marines seem to be the only remaining branch of our armed forces that won't graduate a recruit into active duty simply because they showed up for basic training.

[minorl]

74. Permit me an anecdote

I joined the Corps via the buddy program. My "buddy" was the impetus for my enlistment. We'll call him Dude. "Come on, we can get money for school, go see the world. And besides...the Marines are the best!" I was cleaning toilets and selling newspaper subscriptions with no aspirations for college. "Okay." I say.

1st week of boot camp, before actual training had even begun, Dude gets cold feet and decides to drop out. He tells the DI that he cheated on the ASVAB (entrance test), that he did drugs (piss test was clean), then says that he is gay. (Harrowing interrorgation for Recruit Minor follows where I have to reassure them of my heterosexuality.) They dropped him, but for the next 13 weeks I saw him at the Chapel for church service, and every week he said..."I'm leaving next week." The week before I graduated, I told him..."me to, but at least I'm wearing my dress blues." I always wondered how he dealt with his failure...either way it is a funny story, no? It gets better.

4 years later, I get selected for a college program, I reenlist, and change from the infantry to a planning. I'm home on leave between going changing duty stations and there is a knock on the door. With my mother's yapping poodle in hand I answer the door, and lo' and behold there is Dude. Awkward moment passes then he ask about me. I tell him about my recent successes and future plans. He says that's great. "Dude, did you know I was in town? Why did you come by my mother's house?" Another awkward moment..."well, I was hoping you mother might buy a newspaper subscription from me." I let the door close in his face without any farewell.

Moral of the story: Let your son chase his dream, let him challenge himself, trust that he will encounter other good people such as him. Encourage him to become a leader so he can keep others safe. The job of the Marine Corps needs to be done. I only ask it be attempted by people with more moral and intestinal fortitude than ol' Dude.

LM

[UNIXcock]

116. As much as I hate war, I have to say ...

... that was a good story, I too believe a young man is responsible for his actions and decisions in life. After he reaches adulthood, mothers should be supportive of their sons and daughters regardless of how we feel about their futures.

[DS1]

65. MEGADITTOES

He can back out, the intitial signing in is STRICTLY for show, it means NOTHING, NOT-ING! :-)

[Eloriel]

110. Medadittoes? Why would you use a Rush Limbaugh motto

on DU?

Please don't. EVER.

[DS1]

130. MEGADITTOES

I'll use whatever the hell I want. Thank you.

[donheld]

90. this is great to know

I hope his mom can talk him out of going. it just seems like the worst possible option for him or any young man.

[JuniorPlankton]

4. I am sorry to hear that

[leftofthedial]

7. Thanks to him for enlisting

service of one's country is a noble thing

I just hope we resue the country and the military from the insane gang that is running things now before he gets put in harm's way

[leftynyc]

8. He'll be in my prayers (eom)

[ArkDem]

9. Oorah

[sventvkg]

10. what in the hell is wrong with your son? What was his rational?

I dont' get it? There would be nothing I could say to this misguided thinking.

[Sideways]

15. He thinks the military has been BRAINWASHED and he wants to support

the troops into realizing this. And he wants to support Kerry as his CIC. He is totally convinced Kerry is going to kick the Chimps ass. But the bigger picture for him is that the military needs liberals to speak truth to power. Of course I want to kick his naive ass but Ben has always marched to a different drummer.

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

16. Talk him out of this.

They are the system. They will recognize him, their immune system will react, and he will be discharged with a 3-digit number that would stupidly prevent him from ever being President.

I admire his chutzpah, but my advice would be for him to save it for a battle that he can win without potentially being thrown in a brig.

[Eloriel]

112. dupe

[Eloriel]

114. Exactly -- my thoughts exactly as I read that, but you said it better

Mary T -- tell him instead to become a Quaker or other peace worker and work to help GIs get out, get to Canada, whatever. Tell him to go around to high schools and talk to them. Like others here, I love his moxie, but I fear for his naivete. (Talk about your Don Quixote!)

[Cat Atomic]

71. I hope he understands that the military is not an egalitarian institution.

There's no free exchange of ideas there, and he can be made to shut-up whenever it's convenient.

[0rganism]

He's delusional if he thinks he can practice liberal activism in the USMC

He's right, in some respects: the military tends to overflow with rightwing freaks, and lacks a liberal balance. The military rewards proto-fascists with excellent training in the arts of killing, following orders, and unquestioning teamwork. That's the nature of the beast, and he's going to be in the belly of the beast.

Speaking truth to power? Hell, that's going right out the window when he meets the DI. It'll be about survival and busting ass through basic training.

And then, assuming he makes it through, he'll be on a non-stop express trip to Iraq to play policeman for Shrub's puppet dictator. Truth to power? He's going to BE the tool of power. He will learn to follow orders precisely and efficiently, to kill without hesitation or remorse.

When he emerges, his idealism will be tested and tempered by his experience and training. If his ideals survive the process, he could be a powerful force for freedom and democracy. If not, he could be the next ex-soldier to hang himself in a jail cell. He's taking an awful risk by doing this, of which getting mutilated by an IED in Iraq is only the beginning.

There are other, safer ways to speak truth to power. IMHO, he's doing this for the wrong right reasons -- but they are his own reasons and he has to follow his heart in this matter. I wish him the best of luck and the wisdom to think this through carefully before committing.

He's one more reason that Kerry MUST win this election.

[formernaderite]

94. There is no different drummer in the military...

That's why its the military. Honestly he sounds far to naieve to be joining any military service branch. I'm an old pacifist, but understand that boys want what they want at times. The military is not the branch of government that can be changed in this fashion.

[getoffmytrain]

129. Trust me......

a private in the Marine Corps. isn't influencing a single soul and has no voice. If this is why he wants to join, to change the minds of his fellow Marines, he's in for a HUGE shock. Serving in the military is an honorable deed and there is NOTHING wrong with a young man/woman fulfilling his/her military duty, however... if one expects to join the Marines and be an impetus for change, they are gravely mistaken.

[sherilocks]

11. My cousin signed up for the Marines

when "mission accomplished" was announced. Now he's in Iraq. Every time the news reports another death in Iraq, my heart sinks. If it were one of my kids, I don't know what I would do. My heart goes out to you. I wish I could offer you some consoling words, but I can't find any. It's a fucked up mess over there, and it only gets worse when it becomes so personal.

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

89. Your cousin was deployed that soon ?

[zaj]

12. Your son has a ton of honor and guts... He has my respect and gratitude...

I hope you can be as proud of him as you are worried for him.

[Sideways]

20. My father is a retired flag officer in the USNavy

So I am torn...I want to be so proud of Ben but we are in a world of turmoil.....and I fear for my son. I will be bones by the end of this shit....I am the type that can not eat when their family is in conflict.

[samtob]

21. I agree whole heartedly

"Your son has a ton of hoor and guts... He has my respect and gratitude"

I second that sentiment.

For you Mom (coming from another mom) I wish you strength to honor his choice as a man. Also the strength to endure the negative statements against the Marines made in this forum by some. I have a nephew (Marine) in Iraq right now, a brother (Marine Capt) just returned, and it is very disheartening reading the comments posted by some, stating our Marines are criminals, baby killers, psychotic killers etc.

From what you have stated, from what you know, your son has many objectives in joining the Marines, all admirable. How could any mother not be proud?

[prodigal_green]

24. what negative statements against Marines?

what are you talking about. This forum has been nothing but supportive of our troops in all branches of the military. The only "military" person that we criticize is the chimp.

The use of "posted by some" sounds eerily like chimp-speak (some say...)

[chiburb]

37. Samtob, PLEASE show us where you saw/see those posts here

Because I don't believe you.

[samtob]

95. For starters

look two posts down from your last one.

The post is so far buried now I would have a hard time finding it, but when the Breslen school ordeal was going on, it turned real fast into bashing our military serving in Iraq. There were posts stating we were killing children on purpose, killing innocent civilians on purpose.

I can go put together a collection for you if you wish. It will take me a while, but you have to remember I take these statements to heart since I have family serving in Iraq.


Give me a while, I will come back with links to specific statements.

[samtob]

96. #1

Here is one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x998649

[samtob]

97. #2

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=901711&mesg_id=901717&page=

[samtob]

99. #3

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x898107#898133

[samtob]

100. #4

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x894736#894846

[chiburb]

104. Sorry, babe...

I read those threads that you referred to, and I don't see ANY post that calls ANY member of the military what you alleged. I see NUMEROUS posts decrying our policies, our politicians, and our killing of innocent civilians. I agree with them, but not with you.

[samtob]

107. Well hun

Just who is this poster referring to when they state


-bombed your cities and businesses
-terrorized your children nightly
-took out electricity, sewers and potable water
-kept women indoors scared of getting raped


Is this person stating the women are afraid of being raped by our administration?

Did the administration terrorize the children nightly?

Did the administration drop bombs?

This poster is clearly making a statement about actions they believe are being carried out by the military.

I am putting a list together of more. Especially the one that states our military is full of psychotic murderers. If you cannot see it with that group, you just never will.

[Eloriel]

120. Samtob -- you've got a really

rude awakening coming to you one day.

We DO have some psychotic murderers in the military, some of them made so, I believe and for good reason, by the drugs they were forced to take). We ARE bombing innocent civilians including women and children, too often without a 2nd thought. We ARE raping women (some of them prisoners in places like Abu Ghraib), and committing MANY war crimes and atrocities.

Most of our military troops over there are decent human beings. Some are not. Some have been made temporarily crazy by the conditions they are enduring (thanks to our military).

YOUR loved ones are not necessarily included in these charges (unless of course they are), so there's no need for you to try to defend the entire military when it does not warrant defending. It makes you look silly (when we all know better, except you), niave, ill-informed, and hopelessly idealistic -- no, make that dangerously idealistic.

Overwhelmingly, DUers support our troops. But that doesn't -- and should not -- preclude recognizing and acknowledging that war crimes are happening daily in Iraq and Afghanistan (and Gitmo). To a certain extent, it's the nature of the beast (you don't train people to kill indiscriminately while dehumanizing "the enemy" without anticipating there WILL be war crimes). Too, why would the military be exempt from having at least as many psychos and other psychologically unbalanced (if not more) than the general population?

Wake up, Samtob. You do your family members no good by having your head in the sand. Don't pretend things that aren't true, it's not good for YOUR mental health.

[chiburb]

122. Thanks, E...

You have more patience than I do, hence a better reply to her than I was able to manage.
Thanks again.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

41. Nobody is anti-Marine, or anti-Soldier

You have not been reading carefully. We are anti-Bush and against his brand of policy. Unfortunately war atrocities do happen as John Kerry testified to during Vietnam. Do I think the soldiers are psychotic? I think that many of the soldiers were just kids who ended up somewhere they never expected to be. They see horrible horrible things around them all day. That has to change one's outlook. It is hard to think well of a group of people that have killed your friend. However, this is what the other side is dealing with as well.

I support our troops, but I do not support this administration. They encourage the sort of behavior seen at Abu Ghraib instead of trying to combat the attitudes that would lead to war attrocities.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. I am.

Perhaps most soldiers aren't psychotic. I met my fair share of psychos in the marines.

But, what would you call someone who would kill another person because someone told them to?

Humanitiarians?

[IrateCitizen]

76. War itself leads to behavior that leads to war atrocities

Your job as a soldier, Marine, airman or sailor during wartime falls into one of two categories:
1. Killing other people
2. Supporting people who kill other people.

As such, an endeavor such as war is certain to result in atrocities. There were plenty of atrocities committed by US troops during WWII -- and that is probably as close as we ever are going to get to a "just war".

War tends to bring out the most noble and the most savage and barbaric in human behavior. So long as war remains about killing people, it will continue to do so.

[RetroLounge]

44. Either post links to prove this or retract it now.

No one here is anything but supportive of our troops.

RL

[omnithrope]

48. Are you serious? Back up your statement!

"comments posted by some, stating our Marines are criminals, baby killers, psychotic killers etc"

You have to be kidding me.
Nobody I've seen here has EVER been anti-soldier.

Stop being sleazy.

[greblc]

111. Not so

some here are Anti-Soldier,Marine,Sailor,Airman

And even anti-Cub Scout!

We are all different and hate can come from any angle.

[liberal N proud]

13. He wasn't pressured by a recruter, was he?

I have heard stories where young people are literally pressured into signing then they realize what they have done.

[Sideways]

17. Nope Ben Is A Dope Smoking Rage Against The Machine Type

He is just following his huge huge huge heart. And it is breaking mine. I'm sure the Marines are just creaming over this kid...6-3...195....and a track star...besides being really smart.

[missouri dem]

18. My prayers are with you and your son.

[barbaraann]

19. Mary, I'm sorry and I just don't know what to say.

All I can do is offer some emotional support.

[Sideways]

23. Hey weren't we just talking rugs?

This is a hell of a change. My glasses are smeared and my head keeps shaking. I am so fucking scared.

[The Wielding Truth]

26. If he's done drugs and lied on his application they will kick him out if

they find out. I'm surprised he was accepted.

[barbaraann]

102. We were talking wallpaper about a year ago.

We're all scared, Mary, but we're all fighting in whatever way we can, just like you.

What comforts me is the story about John Kerry turning his swift boat around and confronting the enemy. We're on that boat now and we ARE going to defeat the forces of evil.

[cheshire]

22. I will pray for him and Kerry to get him home soon.

[sventvkg]

25. I joined at 18 and my mom flipped out!! Crying and crying!!!

We weren't at war but Desert Storm happened soon after...I was training to go with a reinforced company from my Ranger Battalion when I was badly injured, thus putting me out of the Military.

I was SO Naive...

Tell your son, he can back out up until the time he leaves....I hope he does because the Military is NOT the Glamourized version he thinks it is...It's a really ignorant Good ol' boy network of very brainwashed people. Self thinkers are NOT encouraged..I Played the game because I knew the game. If he goes, tell him to do the same, but the Marines are the worst at Brainwashing.

[StevenD]

27. I understand your feeling

I have 20 years of military service, 9 active duty and 11 reserve. Earlier this year my youngest son wanted to join the Army (was never interested in college). I told him in no uncertain terms of my opposition to his plan as long as Bush* was in office. But, I was in agony over his desire to enlist for several days. Fortunately, he took my advice and is now an apprentice plumber instead of a soldier.

As for your son, it will take at a minimum of several months before he is ready to deploy anywhere. The situation could change dramatically by then.

[Sideways]

28. Thanks StevenD That Is What I Am Praying For

New change. I begged Ben to go to the IBEW but he was set I just didn't realize how set.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

29. You should drop acid together

May change his mind.

Not that I'd advocate anything illegal or anything...

[Sideways]

30. That Is A Bizarre Response

Ben and I have gotten high (in smoked weed) together. That is still illegal if you have not noticed. He doesn't need LSD to figure out his trip. Bizarre response I'll repeat.

[endnote]

32. The question is: does he have any other realistic plans ?

Like going to college ? Perhaps enlisting is the best path for him, after all. Don't know your situation well..

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

40. A lot of cultures

Use hallucinogens when facing a life decision like this. I've found similar measures helpful at similar decision points.

In any case, I hope your son finds a safe path.

[Sideways]

33. Just Had An Ari Fliescher Moment...Not Helpful Comment

Remember that fuck stick spewing that nonsense...NOT HELPFUL.... what a load of pants.

[genius]

31. A friend of mine went through Marine boot camp. It uses brainwashing

techniquest. They tell them everything they (the individuals) do is terrible. They are all failures and beneath contempt up till near the end when they become okay because they are marines. This is the standard brainwashing technique they use. He needs to keep himself together to not get brainwashed. I used to look at marines and see a vacant look in their eyes and my friend who survied the training with a brain explained that the brainwashing is the reason so many marines seem to be empty.

[endnote]

34. They HAVE to be empty to follow orders. It's all consistent.

[genius]

38. I used to do USO shows and there was a difference bttween the Marines

and the guys in the other services. It was that sense that nobody was home. The best service and the safest was the Navy. Reportedly, their boot camps were much better. But the language those Navy guys learn is awful. The Air Force guys seemed okay but a little weird. The navy and army guys I knew would put FTN or FTA on the back of the envelopes when they wrote letters.

[Sideways]

39. Ben is cool with this shit

They are talking to the lowest common denominator when they use this crap. He does not suffer from low self esteem he has high self esteem. But he is willing and able to put all aside and come through boot with dignity. And he knows a thing or two about playing the game. His father made him be a boy scout and he managed eagle scout even though he loathed the process.

This part of the game does not worry me....it is the killing in Iraq or Afganistan that does.

[NC_Nate]

42. Umm.. No.....

If you think being PROUD is being brainwashed then maybe.. I think people have seen too many movies..:)

I just got out of the Marines.. spent 8 months over in Iraq. And although I (now) disagree with the war...I am proud to have served my country..

Miss Mary,
Be Proud...I'm sure my mother knows what you going through....Your son has made a HUGE desision....Support him 100% and I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Semper Fi

[e-mail] feel free to email me if you have any questions and I'll do my best to answer them honestly without any of the Military spin..

[Longhorn]

56. Thank you for your service, from the mother of an active Marine

who is not the LEAST bit brainwashed! You're the best and I agree with your advice 100 percent!

[Touchdown]

51. That's a stereotype, and a misconception

Yes, they yell at you, and they try and break down your individuality. But brainwashing only happens to those who have weak constitutions in the first place. Anybody can be a soldier, sailor, airman, or marine, if they physically match up. Brainwashing also requires a serious lack of nutrition, and in Boot Camp, you are fed a LOT of food. Mentally, only those inclined to be hypnotized, or brainwashed become "vacant". Private You is still YOU...just that Private You is part of a cohesive unit, that must work well together in order to survive.

The military is classic liberalism defined. You all are only as good as the weakest among you. That is the whole basis of Basic Training. The shearing of hair, the uniforms, the constant marching, the traditions...it's all to make one feel part of something bigger than he is, but none of that changes who he is. I asked too many questions, and thus wasn't the best soldier in the Fort. I knew the Army wasn't what I liked, and they certainly didn't change who I am, or what I thought.

You give the Marines too much credit for their training program. Nobody, including Orwell's Ministry of Love can change who you are, or what you think.

[Longhorn]

60. What a great description of what it's like!

My son has been in the Marines exactly one year today, and this is exactly how he described boot camp and beyond. The Marines have been good for him, though I'm not sure, in hindsight, he would have made the same decision. Thanks for telling it like it is!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

70. The military is "classic liberalism" ?? That's beyond naive.

Wait while I try to stop guffawing.

What do you think those poor sods are doing over there? Building democracy and contributing to free thought? They're following orders like all good cannon fodder.

It's a helluva lot closer to Classic Fascism. Unless things have changed monumentally since I was in.

The marines DO use brainwashing. As does the rest of the military. You are trained from the first second to follow orders without question. Spare me the "legal orders" crappola. When the dear old gunny sergeant (who has the IQ of the average turnip) tells you to shoot, you shoot.

"Classic Liberalism". Your view of what liberalism is has a few chasms in it.

[Touchdown]

83. We are only as good as the weakest among us.

Isn't that what liberalism espouses? Maybe I was wrong, but practicing free thought was intellectualism to me.

Why progressive taxes, social security, Medicare, labor laws, the welfare state, universal health coverage, motor-voter, etc. if we, as liberals did not believe that to lift others up, is the best way to run a society?

The military may be using this ideology in the extreme, but they are basically saying the same thing. If one soldier screws up, then EVERYBODY does push-ups. You are only as good as the weakest among you, because the weakest may get you all killed.

I don't believe in universal brainwashing. Some people are more inclined to believe any big lie than others. I didn't fall for it, and my eyes got a big workout daily doing this :eyes:. It appears you didn't either. You must've had a larger share of buddies that bought into it, than I did. We all had "Fuck the Army" bumper stickers...and none of us had cars to put them on.

Following orders without question is the JOB description, not the ideology behind it. It's militaristic in it's approach to the weakest link theory, but then...it IS the military after all.

Sometimes, the left goes too far left. This is the military. I don't remember having to pay rent in my barracks, or a toll to march to the motor pool, so it can't be laissez faire either.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

87. What you are describing is militarism.

Nazi, Italian and Japanese soldiers didn't have to pay for their meals or uniforms or haircuts either.

The basic duty of the military is to kills people without question. Sure we had a lot of anti-marine crap around, "Eat the apple, fuck the corps", "Lifers suck", "USMC - U Suck My Cock", etc. So?

Liberalism doesn't indulge in group punishment to "lift others up".

The military, any military, from anywhere, is a curse.

[Minstrel Boy]

79. Yes, when I think of "classic liberalism,"

the first thing that comes to mind is "the shearing of hair, the uniforms, the constant marching."

[TahitiNut]

77. It's called "Training & Indoctrination"

While I wouldn't call it "brainwashing," it is intended to elevate group loyalty and respect for authority to a level slightly above personal individual interests - such as survival. While some might equate "group loyalty" to "democratization," I don't.

I've been through 2 years of Military Academy indoctrination, a year of ROTC, and Army Basic Training. (I think that experience gives me some knowledge above and beyond the average understanding. YMMV.)

To better understand the impact of authoritarian indoctrination, a review of Milgram's experiments and the Stanford Jail Study is in order. To trust that the behavior elicited within such a culture is consistent with our/your human values, we must trust those in whom authority has been vested. I don't. Not these days.

[endnote]

35. MaryT, soory to hear that all these terrible things happen to you!

First the saga that took you to Iceland and then, somehow, to Italy. Now this! Are you cursed or what ? Good luck.

[Sideways]

45. Not Iceland It Was Oman And Italy Has Been Lovely

Cursed? Oh at least my partner has good work and makes very good money. Not like his friends in the US. We have salary and benefits...really good benefits...like paying for all our food and rent. I mean really can you expense wine as food? We can. My son making this decision is not part of being cursed. It is called living reality.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

36. He will not be alone according to this letter in today's AMNewYork

Bush and the troops President Bush reiterates
over and over and over how Sen. Kerry’s
“mixed messages” “demoralize our troops.”
My brother, a Lieutenant in the Marines who is
being sent back to Iraq for the third time next March
since the onset of war, fully supports Kerry, as
does the majority of the rest of his battalion
stationed in California. What President Bush fails
to know or ignorantly refuses to concede to is
that HE has already done plenty to demoralize our
troops, and the only factor necessary to fortify our
troops again is the ousting of Bush from office.

Yui Takasugi, Long Beach

http://www.nynewsday.com/other/special/amny/

Still, I'd do everything possible to talk him out of it. Best wishes.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

43. I really do feel for you

I admire your son for his courage and his willingness to act on his beliefs. I hope that whatever decision he comes to he will be safe in it. I hope November 2 will bring good news to you both.

[Sideways]

47. Ben Is Counting On Kerry To Be HIs CIC

n/t

[IrateCitizen]

46. Mary, your son does realize the Marines are about killing people, right?

I mean, I can certainly understand your son's reasons for wanting to enlist. Hell, I harbored reasons of "noble service" when I went through my own officer training and commissioning. But the reality is that the military isn't really about that.

The military is about killing people, plain and simple -- because the military is designed solely for fighting wars, and that's what war is.

Now, such realities are difficult enough to face when one is fighting in an unavoidable war, such as WWII. But amplify this difficulty with the issue of fighting in an immoral war (like just about every war since WWII), and it can become psychologically crippling. Although I am thankful that I received my honorable discharge and didn't have to find this out for myself, I know it all too well from talking to several of my mates in Iraq Veterans Against the War.

Your son is joining an organization whose sole purpose is to deal in death and destruction -- PERIOD. I know that such statements do little to comfort you, but your son must come to understand this. Like I said before, his motives in joining are noble in themselves -- but given the actual climate of the military, they are largely unachievable. He will be forced to sacrifice a part of his individuality and his humanity in order to properly join Marine culture. These are things that will be very difficult for him to get back. And I would hope that he does not go through any experiences that make him largely lose the latter completely and irretrievably.

[Sideways]

50. Chris Stop Making Me Cry

Of course I understand this. Does Benjamin? I do not know. I will be speaking with him in a few hours. I'll give the low down here to anyone who wants it.

Why do you think my heart is breaking as we speak?

[NC_Nate]

59. WOW...

The Marines are all about killing people...huh?

I think you need to stop giving replys you know nothing about...
I went from Kuwait all the way to Tirkrit.. and didn't fire my rifle once..I know of NO ONE in my unit who fired a single shot....during the first 8 months of the war... Spreading rumors you hear isn't helping anyone...

[IrateCitizen]

63. So what then is the overall job of the armed forces, NC_Nate?

Is it not to fight and win wars? In fact, is that not really its SOLE purpose -- to fight and win wars?

How exactly does one fight and win a war? Last time I checked, it was by killing people, or performing tasks that support others in killing people.

Also, this isn't about "spreading rumors". I happen to know several Marines from IVAW who DID kill people over there. And they're having a helluva time dealing with it since they've come home. And being ex-military myself, I think I know a thing or two about what the overall mission of the military is.

NOTE: I am NOT saying that people join the military just to "kill people", nor that people stay in for that same reason. I am simply stating that the #1 job of the military is to fight and win wars. Wars are about killing more people on the other side than they kill of yours, at their essence. Therefore, when you serve in the military your role is either to kill the enemy (combat arms), or to directly support others in killing the enemy (CS), or to provide more general support to all those killing and directly supporting said killing (CSS). I fell into the middle camp when I was in -- Engineers.

[UpsideDownFlag]

72. i have two friends whose dads are in the marines. to quote both of them..

"the marines are about two things: killing people and breaking shit".

from a Gunnery Sergeant and a Major.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

78. I'll second that.

USMC '61 - '65.

The glorification of the marines is nauseating. They are cannon fodder, pure and simple, who are good at following orders.

[greblc]

113. I'll third that...

The Corps is what it is. If you haven't worn the Eagle,Globe and Anchor you'll
have a hard time understaning what it means to be a Marine. It's futile to try.

They do brain wash recruits, it's part of the deal. It wears off .

[qnr]

91. Well yes, but I take issue with the "SOLE purpose" comment

I joined the military to save lives, in a variety of ways. I joined to be part of the International Ice Patrol, instituted after the sinking of the Titanic. I joined to engage in Search And Rescue. I joined to help maintain long range aids to navigation. I joined to participate in pollution control. I joined to be involved in Wildlife and fisheries administration. I'm sure that many members of other services consider the humanitarian aspects of their jobs much more significant than the war aspect.

OK, maybe most people don't think of my service when they talk about the military, but the CG has fought alongside the other services since 1790, and it is a military service - and I don't consider its sole purpose to be the fighting and winning of wars, or killing people.

Mary, best of luck to both you and Ben.

[IrateCitizen]

123. Y'know, the CG is the one branch I'd exclude from that category...

I was in the Army Reserve for 8 years, 13 if you count my time as a cadet. My branch designation was engineers, but my battalion commanders almost without exception liked to remind us that our job was to help kill the enemy. Everything else (construction ops, etc.) was secondary to that.

Over time, I just became sickened by the constant glorification of death and destruction. Of course, I didn't find it to be the case across the board. However, having spent the last couple of years of my requirement on Battalion staff, I can say that such attitudes entrench themselves the further you move up the officer chain of command. While the senior NCO's had their fair share of RWers and open militarist/imperialists, by and large the enlisted ranks were filled with more "normal" people. I used to always joke with the noncoms I worked with, saying, "You know, I really hate officers -- despite the fact that I am one!"

However, it isn't the enlisted ranks that are calling the shots -- it's the officers. And the officers tend to be much more supportive of raw militarism and imperialism than not.

I salute you for your service, and am glad that it gave you the feeling that you were serving a noble purpose. You were. Unfortunately, I joined up thinking that I would be serving a noble purpose, and was left with the words of Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket" speech ringing in my ears....

[Bucky]

86. For jerks we have an "ignore function". (Welcome to DU and thanks)

Most Democrats are very grateful for our armed services and the protection they provide for our freedoms and way of life. Sometimes a pampered ingrate gets on the board. Sometimes a rightwing disruptor gets on the board and attempts to parody liberal viewpoints.

And some people are just assholes. So our moderators provide you with a handydandy "block sender" switch.

Welcome to DU and thank you for serving me and my safety.

[Djinn]

117. and some people are wondering when was

the last time that any western nation's military was involved in anything to do with the "freedom" of the folks back home - that argument could be made for WW2 (although it's not why the US got involved it's not like anyone beleived the Japanese were going to be occupying the USA) but for nothing since.

Militaries are almost always used for geopolitical gain, economic gain, strategic aims in other words imperial conquest.

What has Iraq got to do with protecting anyone in the US's freedoms? Why would you join up now knowing that you're likely to be headed to an illegal and immoral war?

[IrateCitizen]

61. Here -- get him to read these, Mary...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7047.htm

http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/opin/pr_sjm.html

I'm sorry for hurting your already fragile state of mind. I'm just trying to help you tell your son what he needs to know before he goes any further with all of this.

[Onlooker]

52. A number of years ago ...

... A number of years ago, I met an exMarine who told me that the Marines really straightened him out. But, the one thing he regretted is that they taught him to kill without feeling. I always thought the notion of killing without feeling should be enough to scare anyone away from the Marines.

... On the other hand, let's remember that the overwhelming majority of Marines come out of the Marines okay. Even if your son joins, the odds are extremely high that he'll come out okay.

[molly]

53. Promise him anything not to go - it's not too late

[minorl]

54. I'll take care of your son, regardless of the commander in chief.

I'm an active duty SSgt, been in the Marine Corps for over 13 years. I'll finish my MA in English literature this year as well. Once finished, I'm inbound to Fallujah myself. People ask me why I stay around the Marine Corps instead of using my education and background to make money. My answer: I have a lot to give to young people like your son. The Marine Corps is a body of people with diverse backgrounds and beliefs who unite under the ideals of Honor, Courage, and Commitment. Call it brainwashing if you will, but I've watched a black LA gang member and a redneck racist from backwoods Mississippi become best friends.

Continue to love your son. Support him. Encourage him to make the most of his decision; push him to get an education and experience life. If you have instilled good values in him, he won't abandon them.

Commander in chiefs change. The Marine Corps changes as well, but not at such a fast pace. 229 years of tradition, we're talking about. That tradition is very important, and I truly believe that the traditions in the Marine Corps are good and noble. Your son can only benefit from living this life, even if it is for only 4 years.

Every Marine Mom worries about Iraq. It is a dangerous place, but more Marines died in car accidents and training accidents this year than in Iraq (note the spread of the 1000+ deaths among other services)...at least in combat, good leadership and sound tactics can swing the odds in your favor.

I commit myself to my Marines every day. I love them. They are more than troops or workers. They eat Thanksgiving dinner at my house. My wife buys them Christmas presents. You son is joining another family that will do whatever it can to ensure that he comes home to you and gives you grandbabies...

Semper Fidelis

SSgt Minor

[Longhorn]

62. Thank you, SSgt Minor!

My son is a lance corporal stationed in Iwakuni, Japan. Your words bring me much comfort knowing there are good people like you there for my son. He's met others like you and will consider them lifelong friends and brothers. Thank you for your service and good luck!

[Sideways]

66. Longhorn Hope You Got My Email ...SSgt Minor Thanks

I am too tired to continue. Ben is calling at 3AM 8PM EST and I must go to bed. Thanks for the words of love and hope. My old heart is just to weary tonight.

[Bucky]

67. Thank you for your service, Minorl

Two of the kids in my school are wanting to go into the Marines. We also got two who want to be Navy SEALS. Three of the four guys say the college support is a big part of the draw. All four are upstanding young men, future leaders, and great guys. I'm really proud of them. One of my future Marines asked me if he could show the Fahrenheit 9/11 video in class today (2/3rd of the students were off taking PSATs, so it was sort of a blow off day). We ended up having a great discussion, even if I'm a little spooked about the possibly of some administrator finding out.

The service you do is sometimes unappreciated by some of us on the left. But you should know that a majority of us are deeply grateful for your service, leadership, protection, and contribution to our way of life. Thank you for all you do.

[chiburb]

80. Very, very nice post Minor....

Welcome to DU. It's a pleasure to have you participate here.

:toast:

[greblc]

115. Well put SSgt...

Semper Fi...

Thank You for all you do to take care of our MARINES.

[AzDar]

55. Look what those bastards have done now..God bless You and Yours! n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. He'll be sooooooorrrry!!

Speaking as an ex-marine, his delusions will be shattered about 2 minutes after stepping off the bus.

[theboss]

82. That's what I was thinking

I feel bad for the mother, but this sounds like one of the most delusional, self-indulgent acts I've heard of. He joined the Marines to make it less Right-Wing? I'm trying to picture his first encounter with a drill sergeant. It's not going to be pretty.

[greblc]

119. Bandera were you Drafted? or Enlisted?

Chosing to become a Marine and Being forced into it are two different experiences.

I became a Marine by choice.Nearly 20 years ago. I'd make the same choice again. You were in the Corps 40 yrs ago. Do you think this young man will have the same experience you had?

Go easy. This Mother doesn't needs this.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

125. Stupidly joined up.

Go easy? The goddamned DI's aren't going to go easy. Unless things have changed dramatically since they beat the hell out us, he's facing a miserable experience, ending in the brainwashing that makes an adolescent into someone who kills on order. And, may very well die because some idiot tells him to do something that any rational being would refuse to do.

I put 4 years in that outfit. Joined as a kid of 17, fresh out of HS and looking to become a "Man". What I got was a load of crap run by overgrown adolescent sadists. Emerged 4 years later as an anti-war, anti-military, activist.

Hopefully, this kid will see through the "Halls of Montezuma" BS and the corps (or, as we called it "the Crotch") for what it is. A bunch of armed kids doing the dirty work for the corporations.

[UrbScotty]

58. Thinking... hoping... praying for the best

Best wishes to Benjamin and here's to a new Commander-in-Chief!

[Lefta Dissenter]

64. Mary,

I am sorry.

OK, I totally respect what some of the above posters have said about it being his own decision, etc., but he likely may not have a CLUE what he is really getting himself into.

Is there any way you can bribe, threaten or coerce him to get him to at least POSTPONE his enlistment for a year or two? As a mom of a 23-year-old boy, and the wife of a Vietnam Vet, I would do whatever it takes to convince my son to at least put off making this decision.

Either way, you know that you and your family have the full support of everyone here at DU, and if, indeed, he follows through, there are a lot of big shoulders here for crying on. :hug:

[deadparrot]

68. Wow. Best of luck to you and your son.

He's very brave. I'll keep him in my thoughts and prayers.

[neuvocat]

69. Unless he swears in at the MEPS station the day he leaves

he's not obligated to serve.

[info being]

75. Has he seen F 9-11?

He needs to sit down and watch the whole film, at the very least, before leaving. It is one of the most relevant and powerful expression of our beliefs there is.

[theboss]

81. I doubt he will get through Basic

I don't think the Marines will take kindly to someone joining up to be some sort of missionary for Kerry...or for Bush...or any politician for that matter. Political discourse and Paris Island typically don't go hand in hand.

[greblc]

121. He'll do fine

There is no Political Round table in Boot Camp. There are Liberals in the Marine Corps.

[otohara]

84. Pray He Gets A New Commander in Chief

3 weeks from now! I'd be devistated if my son did that, especially while this moron is running our country and our world reputation into the ground.

[stanwyck]

85. My 21-yr. old son is a Marine

and a liberal Kerry supporter. My son dropped out of college and joined a year and a half ago. My husband and I are both liberals with advanced degrees. We wanted our son to finish college. My son's twin sister is the secretary of the young Democrats at her college. We were all stunned when he joined. But, he loves it. He has been to The Philippines, Thailand, Australia, Viet Nam, South Korea, Singapore, Japan. And Iraq. He's in the states now. Will return to Iraq for the "elections" in January. He says Iraq is a mess...you don't know who the enemy is. He has no illusions about helping the Iraqi people. He says he's there to keep his fellow Marines and the other troops safe. I wish you and your son well. Let's support our troops by getting them new leadership.

[JVS]

88. Ask him to explain why he believes this to be a prudent decision.

[mmonk]

92. An honorable thing,

however, the US currently isn't enjoying its previous immunity from war crimes (the world has said no, now). I would let him know to be cautious. Also, he needs to know the news here in the US is a bit sanitized. My wife's cousin's son is in Baghdad and said things are worse than portrayed (though the media seems to be catching up). Finally, let him know its his decision.

[barb162]

93. you have your right as a parent to make your position known

and maybe you would tell him you hope he changes his mind for a lot of reasons and then state the reasons as calmly as possible.

Good luck

[mountainvue]

98. I will pray for your son. n/t

[Sid Demo]

101. I'm a former Marine

It was a good choice for me. I was really wandering in my life after highschool. The most important thing is to know what your values are before you go in because you will be severely tested.

If he really is going, have him volunteer for a duty station after bootcamp. Like Afganastan (sp?) or Embassy Duty. If he doesn't do this he will almost certainly be going to Iraq.

Good luck.

[Joefess]

103. Mary T

Educate your son on Iraq. It's a bit hard for me to understand how anyone could join any branch of service now after all we know about Iraq.

1. Educate him in the lead up to war. Who lied, and who continues to lie about Iraq's weapons.
2. Explain to him who the Hawks are and what their agenda is. An agenda that spans nearly 20 years.
3. Explain to him who the Iraqi exiles are and what their agenda was/is, and how they played part in duping the most powerful nation on earth.
4. Educate your son that every Iraqi is not the enemy.
5. Explain to him that the only reason for going into Iraq was WMD, there will never be WMD found in Iraq.
6. After you tell him all this, ask him again why he joined.

Mary, please don't take my post the wrong way. These are the steps I would take if one of my children joined the service during crazy times like these. Good luck.

[Giornovichi]

105. he is a noble young man

Your son has my respect.

Thank him for helping protect our freedom.

Now let's support a President who will honor our soldiers.

[Hippo_Tron]

106. I would not even dream of joining the military while * is in office...

Tell him to wait until after the election before enlisting.

[scornful]

108. I'm praying for you and Ben

My nephew signed up this past summer. He is scheduled to go to Iraq in March.I've never cried so hard in my life. I also have an 18 yr old son. Seldom does a week go by that a military recruiting flier doesn't find it's way to my mail box. He doesn't see most of them, as they usually get "deep sixed" before he gets home. I told him in regards to ever signing up that if he wanted to stab his mother in the heart, he knows where I keep the kitchen knives. I can not fathom your fear and pain. I am praying and will continue to pray for you both.

[greblc]

109. Every young man has to test himself.

At some point in the not to distant future he will step off a bus on to a set of yellow footprints and regret his decision. About three months from now he will have the proudest day in his young life when he becomes a MARINE. Be there for his Graduation from Boot Camp. Even Marines need their Mother.

What Job (MOS) did he enlist for?

[ezekiel333]

118. Semper Fi

Good luck Ben.

Be sure to listen to the "old corps" guys while your in country, they will keep you alive, hopefully. And when you get back post a message here so we know you made it. But most of all before you go, know one name from this list, keep it with you, and if you can, try to know why they went, <http://kardev.com/semper_fi.htm>.

This current conflict is bullshit. The guys fighting and dying there are doing so because they got caught in the trap for whatever socio economic reason or are fools for the GOP machine. Most are fighting for each other, not for the cause. Just like they did in the last war. There is no honor in this fight, just loss, on both sides.

Stop the madness!

~Gunny C
USMC (Ret.)

[minorl]

124. Wells and schools -

Gunny,

You are right about why men fight - we fight for one another. "Bring your boys home safe"...that is the guiding principle. But, while you are there you have to believe in something, so saying there is no honor is to deny the very moral fiber of the Marines and other service members on the ground. I understand your comment is a blast to the ideology and reasons (more the lack there of) for being there there. You need to trust in the humanity of those doing the work.

Presidents dictate policy, citizens and soldiers implement it. Those guys digging wells, handing out food and medicine, building schools, clearing roads, guarding children, so that they can go to school, those soldiers training Iraqi's with the Combined Military Assistant Teams (CMAT) do so with honor. They may get discouraged, and they have a right to because they are eating dust, wallowing in their own sweat and grunge for days on end. We who are watching from afar need to watch the signals we send when we criticize the war.

For the record: I believe the Iraqi people are better off now than they have ever been. I base my opinion on personal accounts from my Marines and friends throughout the 13 provinces in Iraq, not on the news reports that focus on the 3 worst. Like the Japanese, this generation of Iraqi children will appreciate our sacrifice, though their parents bear resentments. Compare the old ways to the new, and the Japanese would never go back to pre-war society.

Have faith...in the hands that do the work, not the head.

Minor
sends

[ezekiel333]

126. "...need to watch the signals..."

"We who are watching from afar need to watch the signals we send when we criticize the war."

I do not have to "watch the signals" I send. I'll call bullshit when I see it and this war is bullshit.

Oh yeah we are doing a world of good in Iraq, what's the civilian death toll in the noble war up to now?

"Have faith" That is so tired.

Gunny C

[ezekiel333]

127. A little reading for you...

<http://floridapatriots.com/semper_fi.htm>

<http://floridapatriots.com/jeff_lucey.htm>


Now lets see, where is that zZ icon....

[IrateCitizen]

128. Thanks, floridapatriots. Here's another classic read....

WAR IS A RACKET by Maj. Gen. Smedley Darlington Butler, USMC

BTW -- Butler was a 2-time recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor....

[minorl]

131. You got me...

Rip my emotional guts out...let me throw in the towel and convince as many Marines as I can to become concientious objectors. In fact, let's disband the Marine Corps...America just doesn't have the stomach for it anymore. Ideology for the war aside, how can your negative comments do anything to bolster the spirit of those fighting, regardless of what they are fighting for. (we already identified that as "fighting for eachother")

I may not agree with Bush, and I'm a newbie to DU because I guess I'm looking for some other alternative. To me Kerry's biggest let-down is his post-vietnam actions.

What does patriotism mean to you?