Unfortunately for me

[Blitzburgh]

Bush won this debate by a landslide. I watched the debate with the hope and premise that John Kerry would be able to deliver some strong points. Unfortunately, he has just too much baggage to carry around from his past and it will hurt him come election day.

I am the republican poster who declared he would vote for JK at a dinner party to the astonishment of those in attendance. I will still honor that and the wager that was made. It is unfortunate because I believe a stronger candidate could have crushed some of the softballs that were served up tonight. John just swung and missed.

Case in point, when the question was given to President Bush about the flu vaccine and how did this happen, he answered with a weak response about England's supply being tainted. He then had the audacity to suggest we will get around this by requesting our kids skip the flu shot and buy our medicine from Canada.

So what does Senator Kerry do? He WHIFFS it. He completely misses it, goes off on a rambling "I have aplan for healthcare" diatribe and lets a golden opportunity slide by.

DAMN! All the man had to do was crack a smile and say to President Bush "What? The same Canada that you referred to as a third world country last week you now want to buy flu vaccines from?"

The whole night was filled with these flops.

Anyways, I am a little pissed right now with the realization that we will endure 4 more years of this administration. Very unfortunate for us and for the world.

To all here, you have been a great host and I thank you for it. May we all come out of this better in the coming years.

Mike

[Catch22Dem]

1. Good to see you again

I remember you. Your assessment is interesting. I think most of us think the debates are 3-0 in favor of Kerry. I'm really glad you're here, and you're ALWAYS respectful. I hope others understand that before they flame you to death.

Hopefully Kerry can light that fire for you over the next few weeks. Hopefully we WON'T have to endure 4 more years.

[Blitzburgh]

4. Thank you for that

It was never my intention to flame here. I respect the name and nature of this site and it's posters.

We agree on many things. I just wish either the Dems or Repubs would have fielded a better candidate. ESPECIALLY the Dems. President Bush hammered home the talking points tonight. Senator Kerry should have prepared and responded in kind.

To be quite honest I cannot imagine for the life of me why Kerry almost offered a sympathetic response to each and every one of Bush's slams. I know he is a nice guy and all, but truthfully, he played it too polite and IMO, it cost him the election. In fact, I don't think it will be even close from here on out. But, that is just my observation as of this moment.

[WLKjr]

2. Did I even see the same debate????

SURVEY RESULTS
(1) Senator Kerry

96.3 % (579)
(2) President Bush

3.7 % (22)
Total: 601


This from the rocky mountain news. Yeah I know the total isnt all that great, but most I find disagree with you, myself included.

[Blitzburgh]

9. Not to beleaguer a point

but, I did watch the debates with intense interest.

Understand from my perspective, I am not so much voting for Kerry as I am voting against Bush. I mean that in every sense of the word.

So for me, I am observing and taking in all the questions and rebuttals, then forming an opinion. Again, it is not scientific by any means, but my gut told me that Bush toppled Kerry primarily on his history in the Senate.

Another example. President Bush (to be quite frank) destroyed Senator Kerry with his Senate voting record. Okay, why didn't Senator Kerry slam him equally and ATTACK conversely with conviction?

You can point out that he mentioned the first administration to lose jobs in 72 years. Difference is, when Bush said it, there was conviction in his voice. When Kerry said it, he sounded more like he was reciting lines.

Again, I am not here to create controversy. Please understand this as I am only posting what I took away from the debate tonight.

Regards

[George_S]

3. Yeah, he missed that chance, but he still didn't lose

Even a draw is a win for him.

[BiggJawn]

5. OK, so he blew the Flu Shot question...

But then again, he didn't out-and-out LIE about saying OBL "ain't all that anymore", like the Chimp did, now did he?

And if he had ripped Shrub's ass about "What? Canada, you say?" the Pundits would have been all over him like stink on shit for being "petty"...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

6. Hope you enjoy your brief visit....

...NOT.

[Catch22Dem]

21. IMO, this guy is OK

I think he's legimimately voting for Kerry, perhaps out of hatred for Bush, but a vote's a vote.

[Dude_CalmDown]

7. Go Steelers!

[FloridaPat]

8. I thiought Bush looked like he was on drugs or insane - or both.

He was a totally different person than the other 2 debates, His face was bright red, and that was under makeup - unless they were going for the Nixon look. And some of his answers I didn't even understand. Some answers were 180 degrees from what he actually does - like he's for lots of businesses getting government contracts, but Hallibuton and Co got all those no bid contracts. I felt like I wasn't even on the same planet he was on.

[Blitzburgh]

10. Florida Pat

EXCELLENT POINT!!!

My whole point exactly! Why didn't SENATOR KERRY say that tonight? THESE are the softballs that I refer to. He had numerous opportunities to NOT rebutt but to out and out SLAM Bush on points just like this and yet he didn't.

[Must_B_Free]

13. Same drug as William Krystal takes

The "I'm so happy" drug. You can tell drugs by their effects. Heroin users all look so relaxed that their face looks like its sliding off. I think Bush and Krystal are on the same drug.

[Vickers]

11. By a landslide?

C'mon, even hardcore freepers wouldn't say that. Well, they might SAY it, but in their heart they know it is incorrect.

Kerry missed a few easy ones, but overall he did a lot better than Bush. Bush looked uncomfortable throughout...you would think that he would be used to being in the spotlight by now, but I guess he is also used to having folks around who can explain issues to him (not saying having advisors is bad, but not all the time).

You ain't alone here in wishing we had another candidate, but Kerry is our guy and there you have it. Given the choices, I think anybody who REALLY understands the issues and looks at the long view will vote for Kerry.

[Blitzburgh]

14. By an landslide is a FOS

anything that gives the winner a difference in margin of 5% or more is considered a "landslide"

Bush was still ahead in virtually every poll nationwide prior to tonights debate. I believe (and I very well could be wrong) that tomorrow President Bush will have pulled ahead by a comfortable margin. I think many of the nationwide polls (as evidenced by electoral-vote.com and referenced heavily here on DU) indicate a noticeable shifting to GWB.

[Vickers]

15. I'm kinda hoping the polls DO show Bush leading

That might be the catalyst to get some lazy folks off their ass on election day.

[shrike]

26. ahead in every major poll?

Day after day, I keep reading polls that have the two of them deadlocked. Albeit a few have kerry ahead, but I'll acknowledge that maybe you do not consider Zogby, et. al a major poll. So how is it that Bush is ahead? Again, I have to wonder if you are who you say you are.

[Blitzburgh]

29. Okay, do you accept electoral-vote.com?

If so, they have Bush at 291 and Kerry at 228.

I have no reason to deceive. I am who I say I am. I am quite honest and will shoot you straight no matter what.

I have declared at the outset I am a republican. Not the ones you see flailing around on TV today, but a 1992 conservative who has seen the party destroyed. Strangely enough, I could almost be considered a Schwarznegger republican as we have many of the same beliefs.

If I lose this bet, I will post a picture of my big fat shaved head for you to see. Fair enough?

[shrike]

30. Electoral vote.com changes every day

I think the guy who runs it is on the level, but I don't check it very often because of its wild mood swings -- I believe it was just last week that Kerry had 280 votes. The guy throws in every poll that comes along, which I suppose is a fair method in its way. Checking that site regularly is enough to give one heartburn, no matter what side of the fence you're on.

Still, I take issue with your characterization of it as "clobbering." I'd accept a draw -- I think Kerry won on points, though he could have done better -- but a rout. Sorry, but Bush was not that good.

[LSK]

12. there is no baggage, it is lies

Look at Kerrys record here:

http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=S0421103

[Blitzburgh]

17. Hey Media_Lies_Daily

To borrow a line from Alanis, isn't it ironic?

I believe you are the only person since I have been here these 3 brief weeks that has been remotely rude.

The irony comes from your Profile. Of all the places I lived and adored, Madison AL was it. I was stationed for 2 years at RSA and fell in love with Madison like nowhere I had ever lived before.

Fished Wheeler almost every weekend, hunt the arsenal, hit the bars pretty heavy and received my BSEE from Huntsville.

So, while you wish me a quick exit, I would like to say hello to you. You are in the GREATEST place on the planet if I do say so.

[shawn703]

16. I disagree, here's why

Bush looked really bad tonight for several reasons:

1. He didn't answer the questions that were asked of him. CNN at least had the question that was asked at the bottom of the screen - everyone watching could easily see that Bush was not answering the questions that were asked of him.

2. Kerry spoke articulately, into the camera, with conviction. In contrast, Bush spoke in pauses, and as the debate went on he seemed to lose confidence and authority in his tone - almost like he was unsure of himself.

3. Kerry offered a plan to the people, while pointing out how Bush failed time and time again over these four years. Bush had to resort to talking points and name calling.


Landslide for Bush? Hardly.

[Blitzburgh]

19. I TOTALLY agree with you on this

I think you and everyone else are missing the point that I have and continue to make.

It's not that Bush answered the ?s correctly or even well. It's that Kerry let him slide time and time again.

A proper response from Senator Kerry would have been "Excuse me Charley, but, I am confused. You asked a question and President Bush avoided the question completely." (In fairness, Senator Kerry DID say this once tonight, but he needed to hammer home the point loud and clear)

President Bush on the other hand, when given the opportunity, hurt Kerry badly. i.e. World coaltion, voted against it in 1990. It may not mean anything to the members of this board, but you can be sure that it was a damaging point to the viewers at home.

It's NOT that GWB was brilliant, its that JFK was TOO easy on him.

[shawn703]

28. I'm not so sure that would have helped Kerry though

The people didn't need Kerry to tell them Bush avoided the question - the question is right there in front of them while Bush is rambling about something else. Mentioning it one time is good because he's showing the American people that Bush isn't fooling him. If he were to say it time and time again, people may start to tire of it.

Also, Kerry attacked Bush's failed policies, and rightly so. Bush attacked Kerry personally (calling him a liberal, etc.,) and offered no defense for his four years.

I'm just not too sure that Bush hurt Kerry with his attacks and that Kerry missed many opportunities. I think Kerry wisely spent more time explaining where we've gone wrong the last four years and how it can be fixed, while Bush came off as desperate and mean.

The things we (meaning liberals) would like to hear Kerry say in a debate sometimes aren't the best things to say when you're trying to swing the undecided voters your way.

[Blitzburgh]

31. Honestly, I wish he would have

Sorry, but there are just too many stupid people who are missing this. It's kind of like in the first debate where GWB kept repeating "it's hard work" and the next day, the parrots all stood around repeating "it's hard work"

When you asked how they knew this, they would always say the same thing. "President Bush said it is hard work."

Zanax zombies.

[Cat Atomic]

18. HAHAHAHA!

Sure. Nice try, man.

[karlrschneider]

20. Hi Mike, I think you make some proper and salient points, although I

somewhat disagree with your conclusion. You're exactly right about the drugs/Canada thing, I was unhappily surprised Kerry didn't leap on that.
I'm calling tonite's debate a draw...not because I don't think JK did better (I do, generally) but because I think it's how it'll be perceived by most people who watched. So IMO, it probably changed very few votes either way. I think you'll be welcome here at DU if you continue to post cogent arguments, even in opposition to the majority. :D

edit: just peeked at ur profile...Branson? Not far from here (Ft. Gibson Lake, OK)...I used to go to Branson as a kid before it was famous
(in the 50s)...we loved the 'pedal boats' on Taneycomo.
;-)

[Blitzburgh]

22. Ya know karlrschneider

It would be tough to just up and leave here.

I find it interesting to get the perspectives here on the board. Don't necessarily agree with them, generally don't. But, to at least understand the points of view and then try to accept them.

Thanks for the tip of the hat. Sending one back from Branson to ya!

[Blitzburgh]

25. You wouldn't believe Branson if you seen it now

It has absolutely exploded with people. Over 100 shows now and the Branson Landing Project underway.

We are over on Table Rock Lake. (Here's a link to our location) http://www.huntersfriendresort.com/location.htm

We moved here from San Fran and I can honestly say we love being in Branson. What a majestic city and environment to relax in.

[shrike]

23. Bush clobbered Kerry?????

I'll be the first to say that JK did not give as good a performance as I would have hoped, but "clobber" is a strong word.

Kerry got in a few good digs and overall he held his own. The general consensus (at least via the pundits I've seen) is that he won, or at least that the debate was a draw -- I'll accept the latter view although I would say at first blush that Kerry came out ahead.

You seem to feel that Bush won the election tonight. Again, a very strong statement. I have to wonder if you are who you say you are.

[petrock2004]

24. don't forget we have 20 days

and don't forget that john kerry has to perform 10 times better than * just to look normal. don't ask why, that's just how it is. so, if JFK were to descend to the immaturity that * and his cronies have shown TIME and time again, i think that he would turn off a lot more people, especially the undecided ones. well, IMO, especially the women, who DON'T want to see ANOTHER bully in the oval office!

i do kind of agree with you a little bit about JFK needing to kick more ass and take more names, but at the same time i think refraining from the kind of sucker-punch insults that the * camp specializes in actually might appeal to some americans.

haha... part of me is also just playing devil's advocate here. i think your point is valid, like i said before, but i also think it's important to realize that OUR candidate (ours meaning ANYONE who is against bush) is the smarter one, the calmer one, the more mature one, and the one who doesn't foam at the mouth and love soldiers wives the "best he can."

i think people will add up all 3 debates and realize that kerry is the clear winner, even if it means averaging his 16% wins with his 13% wins.


oh, and, just to let you know i've been at the beer a little, which might explain the length of my answer... teehee

:toast: :toast: :toast:

[Blitzburgh]

27. Not a problem

I probably need a beer myself. :toast: salute back to you.

Here's hoping that come November 2nd, I get to cheer you back and keep my hair!

[Mandate My Ass]

32. I'm republican and I'm voting for your suck-ass candidate

even tho he allegedly lost a debate to a functional illiterate. I'll even use RW catchphrases like 'flop' to describe Kerry's responses and with absolute certainty but oh-so-regretably predict another four years of Bush.

But I'm on your side...really. :silly:

[Domitan]

33. While I think Kerry won...

I agree with you that he missed some golden opportunities regarding the flu vaccine:

1) Why depend on another country for the vaccines and fuck the lawsuits.

2) If the flu turns serious enough to cause casualties among young adults, Bush will be damned for telling them to not be vaccinated. Regardless, Kerry missed an opportunity to call Bush on for encouraging reckless endangerment.

[Skittles]

34. bullshit

he did NOT win this debate, not at all. And I don't care how civil you are; anyone who is a republican - after all the garbage they have pulled - makes me SICK.

[Blitzburgh]

35. Well, there you go.

I guess it is time for me to exit stage left.

Folks, it has (for the most part) been entertaining and enlightening at the same time.

I wish you well in all that you do and DO hope that we will refer to Senator Kerry as President.

For those of you who acted like punk brats here at the end, what a shame. You are the face of how your party is perceived. Too bad, you almost had a strong adversary in your corner.

Best of luck. Mike

[JustCarbon]

39. Don't leave!

There will always be 'punk brats' as you say, but know that they don't represent the majority of the true democrats. I for one consider myself to be accepting and I feel it'd be a great loss to have you gone.

[camero]

40. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh

A few inane comments from one site is the face of the Dem Party? Hate to say it pal, but your party is the party of Abu Ghairb, Gitmo, and torture.

Get a life.

[Skittles]

47. see why I can't stand republicans?

it's all about them

[camero]

52. RINO only gets them so far doesn't it?

The true colors come out eventually.

[Skittles]

54. oh this "I'm a republican voting for Kerry" business is absolute crap

if you're truly disgusted with Bush you should be even more disgusted with the party that made him

[mitchum]

56. Once again, you have nailed it, Skittles

[Skittles]

58. I can't believe people welcoming that b.s. here in the DU

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I get enough of this shit in TEXAS.

[camero]

63. Exactly

Of course being a republican is ironic in itself since you can't spend more on defense and have smaller government. It's pretty improbable when defense makes up almost 60% of the budget.

They're like the borg. The mods can't work fast enough on nights like this unfortunately.

[Skittles]

46. BYE

nt

[friesianrider]

49. Oh please, spare me the melodrama...

If you support Kerry then support Kerry and stop being such a whimpering loser. I'm sorry, but that's exactly what you sound like. You sound like a hand-wringer, and although I've been guilty of the same myself at times, never made 6 posts in a row about how the momentum is all of Bush's side, etc.

"You are the face of how your party is received".

WTF? Leave, then. Sorry, but this is the DU, and if you want a Dem-bashing discussion then go somewhere else. We are red-blooded Dems here and no criticism is accepted unless it's well-founded, and I'm sorry but most of your complaints weren't well founded.

Spare me the melodrama. If you want to leave then leave; it'll be no one's fault but your own. No one's gonna beg you to stay (least of all me).

[Skittles]

50. thank you friesianrider

if I want to hear sanctimonious shit from republicans all I have to do is turn on the TV or radio or read the newspaper or talk to my cowrorkers here in Texas. DU is my sanctuary and I will call the bullshit like I see it.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The_Casual_Observer]

42. Yes Jesus,. a true democrat alright

[Skittles]

48. I COME HERE TO GET A WAY FROM F***ING REPUBLICANS

NO, I DON'T HAVE TO TOLERATE THEIR PRESENCE HERE AND I WON'T.

[Cat Atomic]

55. I'm not tolerant of fascist enablers.

And that's what modern Republicans are. Even moderate Republicans. Maybe you think liberals are supposed to be sandal wearing hippies who reach out to the opposition for understanding, but I don't.

The only thing I want to hear out of Republican mouths for the next several decades is "I'm sorry". If they aren't saying that, they can shut the fuck up as far as I'm concerned, because I don't care what they have to say.

[Skittles]

57. YOU KNOW IT CAT ATOMIC

YOU TELL HIM - AND HIS DU ENABLERS TOO. :thumbsup:

[Vickers]

59. God, I fall in love with you about 10 times a day

'If they aren't saying ("I'm sorry"), they can shut the fuck up as far as I'm concerned'

:loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya:

[mitchum]

60. This true Democrat is PROUD to be represented by Skittles...

because I completely agree with her.
Bullshit is bullshit (and some of us know it)

[The_Casual_Observer]

36. Unfortunately for me

Strange, but you appear to be in the global minority on this one. This kind of a stupid post where the freeper takes the "humble and gentle" approach to slam Kerry won't fly. I'm sorry but you are simply wrong and your post has no merit.

[Joefess]

37. DON'T FEED THE TROLL!!

There is an alert link for a reason...

[Strelnikov_]

41. "Bush Won This Debate By A Landslide"

OK, got it.

My only complaint with Kerry is that he didn't call Boosh on his many Flip-Flops. But then again, I think he was trying to take the high road tonight.

Boosh does seem to have his campaign slogans down though. Especially the ones regarding education. It is amazing how he can drift from the topic of the question to education campaign talking points effortlessly. He has a real talent.

[DrWeird]

43. Oh god, oh god, oh god, harder, harder, uh uh

uh uh uh, yes, harder, uh, god, too big and fat, uh, uh, UUHHHH!

[Skittles]

51. LOL.......................DrWeird

HA HA, HA HA HA HA :thumbsup:

[fob]

44. Blitz, it sounds like you have the same desire as we DUer to see bush*

gone, and in that light, I too have been disappointed that Kerry has seemingly pulled punches. I thought about it most of today and came to this conclusion; We, DUers, you and others that can't wait to see the US cleared of bush*itis are too well informed and have staked a lot on this for our mental well being. After I realized that I can see Kerry's debates in a whole new light. One of the clues to this was aftere the first debate I thought Kerry mopped the floor with bush* but tcoculd have REALLY kicked his ass with probably only 2 or 3 well placed comments. Because of that I was really expecting the talking heads to be pitching a "Kerry gets smoked" line of crap afterwards. Too my surprise they picked up on all the points they should have and pretty well presented them as given, it was clear that the "it was a draw" talk was just spin.

So now after the 3rd debate I realized what Kerry had to do. He had to appear Presidential, forceful without being overbearing, bring the attack to bush* but not beat him so bad as to be cocnsidered a bully and leave bush* as a sympathy magnet. He also had to be consistent (fight the flip-flop mode, and the "Gore has been a different personality in each debate" meme that the mediawhores used so well in 2000), he had to appeal to his base AND undecideds, he had to be near perfect in every mode (style, delivery, etc) and he had to be memorable enough for his surrogates to have fodder for the post-debate spin.

There are other things but you get the picture, pretty close to an impossible task given the fact some of the things are almost mutually exclusive. In the end I think Senator Kerry did all those things and more. The way he did that was to gear his information to the average undecided voter and therefore left ssome of the meatier things out that they either may not have understood without more background than was possible to give or holding back on some of the things that may have turned them off to him.


With all that, I think Kerry kicked much whistle ass*!! The task before him was beyond Herculean, the task before bush* was to just be himself, and in the end wouldn't you know it, bush* "gored" himself into 3 ACTUAL different personas!!


Shorter summary; Kerry didn't have to say anything during these debates to get our vote, if he said what many of us swanted him to say he probably would have lost votes, even though it would have made us feel better in the short term. I thought he was note perfect for the undecideds though.

[Julien Sorel]

45. I think you have the bar for Kerry quite a bit higher than

for Bush. You continue to fault Kerry for not slamming Bush for Bush's mistakes, yet Kerry certainly did pound home his own talking points. He hit on jobs, and did an especially good job on healthcare. If both sides hit their points, how can one side or the other be said to win in a landslide?

On presentation, on being presidential, Kerry wiped the floor with him. On facts, Kerry wiped the floor with him. Your point about not slamming him for the Canadian drugs thing looks valid, but it's only one point, and hopefully Kerry can take it up on the campaign trail.


BTW, with regards to polls, be careful about the electoral vote site. Some of those state polls are stale, making the results a little screwy at times. The national polls show a virtual tie.

[Swamp Rat]

53. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

[loyalsister]

61. I agree with you for a couple of reasons

These are not real debates and he performed better than the other two debates.
The idea is to exceed expectations and these are for public consumption. You assume that this means HS grad and not your general critical thinker. This is not serious debate. One way these are "won" if people buy the idea that they performed better than they are expected to be capable of. I have to admit that Bush did do that.
The con artist was also out in full force. "Mr. Likable" pulled a manipulative trick to counter his last debate meltdown performance. Did anyone catch him getting misty eyed when he was talking about the painting? I was almost sure he would do something along those lines. He also pulled a fast one after Kerry talked about Washington being divisive. He made it sound like it was everyone else's fault. Whether the audience caught on or not, -who knows- but he came off sounding like Dudley Do Right who went to D.C. full of good intentions.
I'm just saying that since we are the choir, it might be worthwhile to consider the possibilities for what the less informed, general public might have consumed.

[mitchum]

62. Mods, please tombstone this mealy-mouthed troll

please