My fellow DUers. Why do so many of our fellow

[charlyvi]

Americans want a fascist state? I mean, really, some RWers I know are decent people; why do they not know that Rush, Hannity, shrub, etc., want to turn our beloved USA into pre WWII Italy? I'm dumbfounded. Please help me understand!!!

[madmax]

1. Blind faith.

Speaking from personal experience I never thought it could happen here. :(

[charlyvi]

3. Did we take our USA for granted?

Did we think free speech, individual rights, democratic America could never be changed? I think so. Our Republic seems so fragile now.

[madmax]

10. I think so...

I can only speak for myself but,I was uninvolved and naive about politics. I woke up when the empty suit was nominated. Well hell, I was naive - not stupid. Cheer up. We can win this it's the ground war that will make or break this election and I think we're motivated enough.

[WindRavenX]

2. The simple answer:

It's easier than thinking.
Thinking is scary. You realize how unfair and how much hurt is in the world; remaining in an ignorant state is the best way to avoid feeling that pain.

[charlyvi]

7. But the pain I'm feeling now

with our country turning into a bigoted, small minded nation is very heavy to bear. Do you think people will wake up in time?

[WindRavenX]

11. Here's the thing...

You realize you hurt. You realize that your hurts steams from seeing unjust acts and people, and you want to CHANGE that so there IS no more unjust acts and people.
The other people hurt and simply want their hurt to go away.
People will wake up when they realize the pain is a sign that things aren't right...and that they have the power to change things.

[lightbulb]

14. Scary is the key word

This administration's effort to instill and maintain terror in the general population has worked to a significant degree, as this tactic has worked for would-be dictators many times in the past. We might break down our citizenry as follows:

1/3 Thoughtful, intelligent patriots. Prioritize awareness, activism.
1/3 Mainstream citizens. Prioritize material possessions, security.
1/3 Mindless, drone-like sheep. Prioritize conformity, reality TV.

The GOP has always had the bottom 1/3. The Dems have always have the top 1/3. The middle 1/3 is up for grabs, depending on how threatened and insecure they are made to feel. After 3+ years of "the terrsts are gunna getcha" bullshit, the middle 1/3 has all but had a nervous breakdown and just wants a big father figure to make them safe again.

[Kanary]

19. You're so very right. This is a nation devoted to avoiding pain.

We're told all the time...... "Get over it". "Put it behind you." "Don't dwell on it". "Get on with your life".

We're very phobic of the so-called "negative" emotions, and develope all sorts of mechanisms to avoid them.

I can understand it in this situation...... I went through something similar during Vietnam. I was very politcally naive, and din't really understand anything about the system. Not my fault...... it was never presented. But, when I was in Berkeley during the Vietnam protests, I was reading underground newspapers, etc., and when it hit me between the eyes just how WRONG my country was, not only about the war, but about so many other things, I went into a grief reaction.

I think that most people are subconsciously aware that this would be their fate if they were willing to HEAR what is really true, and they are protecting themselves.

The irony, of course, is that if the current scenario plays itself out completely, it won't be possible to ignore it anymore, and then there will be HELL TO PAY, and NOBODY will be avoiding grief, and much more.

Kanary

[charlyvi]

23. I remember Vietnam

My brother was serving, and my parents were very gung ho. I protested the war because I felt in my gut that my brother was in danger for no good reason. My parents took it very hard, but my brother understood, which was pretty bizarre. Now my brother is a very RW shrubite, which is hard for me to understand.

[Kanary]

27. That's what I was addressing. It's not hard to understand.

Really, I laid it all out there.

:shrug:

Kanary

[alittlelark]

30. That sucks....but you did the right thing

you KNOW it....and I'll bet he does too - but will never admit it.

[pacalo]

4. I'm just as dumbfounded as you are. And the difference between

the two parties is passionate. I feel that we've been in a four-year nightmare; it's been that incredible for the last four years.

[The Straight Story]

5. They see the left as wanting a facist state

From smoking regulations, to seat belts, and on down the line they see the left as wanting to control the lives of people, suing McDonalds because they serve you food that you know is not good for you, having to have permits for garage sales, etc, they see the left the folks who are telling them what is best for them.

These and other things are what I have heard time and again from people I have worked with and known over the years who were right of the spectrum (but not active politically).

The left sees the right as being facist, and the right the left.

[charlyvi]

9. But at least you can see the logic in these regulations....

They are for a good end--anyone can see that even if they don't like it. But invasion of privacy, imperialistic world domination, outright LIES spoken by our governing officials. I DON'T RECOGNIZE THE COUNTRY I GREW UP LOVING--THE ONE I LEARNED ABOUT IN SCHOOL. It's as though THAT country is now looked upon as a quaint, naive dream.

[The Straight Story]

35. Recognize?

Let me tell you of some travels across this land over the years. My first trip across country found little gas stations (and some big) run by people who smoked in the store as they worked. They owned the places, they paid for them.

Missouri near butler, Oklahoma south of Okie city, Texas, New Mexico. Not just smoking, but other things in general. Freedom was not just relegated to your home, but to the business you earned from your sweat. Now comes in the government and treats mom and pops like criminals. We know best! We can make your life better, follow our faith and beliefs and be healed!

I stopped in one place during the day break hours. South of Okie city. The gas station owner had a cast on his arm and neck. He was smoking. Fired up the compressor so I could get gas. He owned the station, had worked it most his life he told me. And here come those on the left to save him from himself.

"For a good end??????" What does that mean? That we are superior and know what is best for people? Sounds like bush to me. Want to help people, leave em alone. How did the indians ever make it without all our government regulations?

I will be out to some reservations in December. I will ask them how grateful they are for the left butting in and telling them that what they are doing is best for them, that it is for a good end. I am sure they will agree....

We support abortion, suicide assistance, but then we try and tell people what is best for them should be enforced by law and jail time?

[charlyvi]

36. I didn't say any specific regulation was best for anyone....

what I did say is that a regulation has logic if you can see the basis for it. Smoking causes cancer, agreed. If you want to smoke, okay, but don't live in a dream world. Our government does not treat moms and pops like criminals--you sound like a wacko saying that. I certainly don't feel superior and know what is best for anyone. And how exactly is the "left" butting in on anyone? Actually, it's the right who tells us we need to pray in school, never end a pregnancy, and look up to the almighty BUSH as the savior annointed by God. You need to go somewhere else to peddle that government interference bullshit mister, and realize what real government interference will be like under shrub. And the Indians haven't made it very well have they? Take it somewhere else.

[The Straight Story]

37. My Take

I am 39, and have lived in Ohio much of that time.It has been the left, amy times, which has been portrayed as the ones wanting to take 'rights' away. Examples: Working on cars at your house - a lot of folks did that for friends and such and made a little money on the side. Dems are in and want to restrict it. Same with garage sales and smoking. The left is seen time and again as wanting to restrict rights. The little guy, who makes up a big voting block, sees this as an instrustion. Mike Coleman is mayor here (a democrat) and those I have spoken with see him as wanting to take away more rights than he wants to give:

To wit - give gays the right to marry, but restrict the right of people to smoke, work on cars, have garage sales and so forth. To many I have spoken with this makes no sense. Wanna abort a living 'tissue/fetus' ok, no problem. Want to have a garage sale for several weeks on weekends? Get a permit. Want to smoke in a bar? So sorry, we know what is best for you so do what we tell you.

I lived in CA when the smoking ban went into effect for bars. Bar owners I knew (in the southern CA area) would still give you an 'ashtray' which was a bottle. They hated the government telling them what was best for them.

Maybe we SHOULD let christians run things. They can tell us what is best for us all and how we should live our lives. In some ways, I wonder if the left is the same as the right. The right wants to keep people from having abortions and killing what they see as a life, the left wants to keep people from smoking and not weaing seat belts.

My overall point - maybe both parties are working too hard to take away rights people have. This is something worth addressing IMHO. I don't care if it is kerry or bush doing it, left or right. We all don't win if the person we put in takes away our freedoms. We might beat the freepers on election night and then party, but how much good will it do us all in the long run if the only thing that changes is the face and few minor things??

[charlyvi]

40. As far as smoking goes,

I'm a smoker myself. The bans on smoking are intrusive to me, but to nonsmokers they make perfect sense; hence, the logic of the restriction. No one is telling a person who owns a business that they can't smoke in that business, unless there are other people in residence that can be affected. I live in Alabama, the most Repub of all states, I think. These white men in Montgomery are telling me I can't have a lottery because it won't be good for my soul to gamble and I don't have enough common sense to decide that for myself; I can't have an abortion because it is against God's will, but when I have the child the folks on the right are the last people on earth that want to help me feed and clothe him or her. When I hear people groan about the left restricting personal rights I have to laugh. Are you kidding? If you smoke, you can die. If you have an unsafe work environment, you can die. If you are surrounded by pollution, you can die. This is called public health awareness, and to compare it to the onslaught of personal liberties that the right has launched in the name of God and moral rectitude is laughable. I'm sorry you can't see the difference.

[patrice]

6. Fear = Hate.

Fear is the most "hard-wired", ergo universal, human emotion.

[revree]

8. Ignorance, and fear...

drive people to do things they don't even know they are doing, and to want to follow leaders that are actually quite evil. It's the old Stockholm Syndrome, I guess.

[A HERETIC I AM]

12. They don't really want that. All they hear is "LIBERALS ARE PANSIES"!!!!!

and they run with it. Unfortunately, Americans tend to be gullible AS HELL and EXTRAORDINARILY uniformed and as a result, woefully incapable of making a decision based on logic and reason.

Get them to take a Michael Moore type test;

Do you think the government should determine a womans reproductive choices?

Do you think the government should declare which religion your children should align themselves with in school?

Do you think that anyone should be able to buy ANY kind of firearm anytime, with NO restrictions at all?

Do you think that an honest days work deserves an honest days pay REGARDLESS of gender? Shouldn't someone working 40 hours a week be able to afford to support him/herself?

etc. etc. etc.

MOST Americans are middle of the road or left of center, it is just that the right wing is so effective at painting us as something to be feared.

[daa]

13. How did Hitler come to power???? eom

[charlyvi]

16. Hitler came to power because he told a war-wracked

society exactly what they wanted to hear; he gave them justification for their feelings of injustice and vengence. Have we reached that point? I hope not.

[drdtroit]

44. Bush & Co allow people to feel comfortable with their

prejudices and biases. This slippery slope has become a full-out ski jump I'm afraid.

[Jackie97]

15. I think....

in their own mind they actually believe that we're the enemies who want to destroy America.

I think they honestly believe that Kerry will lead America to terrorism.

I think they honestly believe that we want them to be non-existent as Republicans and conservatives. I think they actually see us a threat, even though most of us are harmless. At least we don't vote for ideas that can take away their freedom (even though they think we do with the school prayer stuff and so forth).

Personally, I don't understand this. How can anybody take Rush, Fox News, and Bush seriously? I'd laugh at them if they weren't so darn dangerous.

[Minstrel Boy]

17. A generation of indoctrination'll do it.

This hasn't come overnight.

[alittlelark]

18. They see the US as immune to Fascism

because of 'democracy' and the 'free press'. They grew up believing, as did most of us, that the US is the greatest country in the world, and that we do only GOOD.

The cognitive dissonance nessesary to dispell those myths is more than some minds can take.

That little pill is EXTREMELY hard to swallow - you choke on it, and roll on the floor doubled up, but when you recover, you can see US for what we are.

I know, I went through it in 2002.....ugly.

[charlyvi]

20. You mean they take for granted that the US

will always be a democratic Republic, with no maintenance involved. That anything they do will never damage the bedrock? YIKES!

[alittlelark]

21. Yes, and no

The 'bedrock' of black and white thinkers that are unable to deal with cognitive dissonance (30% or so) will NEVER change. In Nazi Germany, there was a decent % of the population that refused to accept what the country had done - even when they were a conquored nation and the proof was shoved in their faces.

There is another, larger group, that is capable of critical thinking - the drip, drip, drip will get all of them eventually.

The question is, 'How many drips does it take'

[charlyvi]

24. I hope and pray the "drips"

have been enough already. We are hated throughout the world, the foundation of our society is threatened, we are hypocits to anyone who is capapble of one iota of rational thought. Since when did denial and stupidity become patriotic?

[alittlelark]

29. I am CONFIDENT that there have been enough 'drips'

that is why the Repugs are trying soooo desperately to supress/deny votes. They are concerned that BBV is a bit too exposed (Comp Sci's all over the country are eagle-eying). They are terrified - of being sent to the Hague.

That's what makes these times soooo scary. They are backed into a corner, and can only attempt to steal-cheat their way out.

Imagine a cornered racoon - multiply it by 100X

[Ladyhawk]

22. I was rolling around on the floor with you about that same time. : | eom

[alittlelark]

25. It sucked didn't it?

Most family/friends thought I had lost my mind for a couple of months there....guess I did - but when I found it again It worked MUCH better.

[ElectroPrincess]

26. On the level ...

I'm getting tired of all the SLAMS against my French ancestry. Gee, now I know how my best friend in Middle School (Polish Grandparents)suffered having to tolerate all those nasty "Pollock" jokes.

Many of the right wing radicals value the "Good vs. Evil" mindsets. It's always more tolerable when it's others that are being pushed down. Just sad.

[charlyvi]

28. I think French is great.

They gave us a great body of literature, the French Revolution (got a little dicey at the end, but the principle was noble) great cuisine, many new words, the Statue of Liberty, Gerard Depardieu, Descartes, Monet, Renoir (both Auguste and Jean), Jacques Cousteau, Toulouse Lautrec, Simone Signoret, I could go on and on. VIVA LA FRANCE!!!

[VOX]

31. Looking back, facism has been creeping in the U.S. for a long time...

JFK, MLK, Jr., RFK all murdered; Vietnam War allowed to go forward, big profits for contractors, economic fallout here at home; Reagan's deregulation; the trashing of the fairness doctrine; New Gingrich's doctrine for all Republicans to marginalize the opposition; corporate consolidation, especially in the media.

Most of the pieces have finally been put in place for control of a citizenry; specifically, a right-wing government buttressed by a pro-corporate media spewing forth right-wing propaganda daily.

It's a mechanism of fear-mongering, big profits, and a misinformed population.

The right wing took over the country without firing a shot.

[charlyvi]

32. But will the fascist element win?

Or have all the ideals we learned in school be for nothing? I can't help but believe our collective conscience will prevail. Am I dreaming?

[Nicholas_J]

33. Think about it for a minute

Right wingers are not all that nice. In fact, it appears that the right wing, even the religious right
have completely lost their moral compass, or even worse, their moral compass point in one direction. Towards themsleves

Even when they talks about their own religious experiences, like George W. all that is ever spoken of is that somehow the experience has dome something for them. Like save their own souls or as BUsh puts it, "the transforming power of his experience". But the only thing it did for BUsh is save his liver.

Kerry pointed out as Catholics beleive, that a religious change, if is does not result in works to match is no real religious change. The heart of that change has very much to do with how ones relations with ones fellow man. particularly with those less fortunate, changes.

THe right wingers have simply put a mask of Jesus on a dollar sign. The right wing talk of being born again is limited to what right wingers alway think. What is in it for me.

They talk about "letting Jesus come into thier hearts" Yet you never see the change.
They avoid feeding the thousands with fishes and loaves, and they certainly do not want to heal the sick.

Why do they want a fascist state. Because they have no real inner life and their religion is much like that of the Pharisees of the New Testament. All white and clean on the outside. Bunt inside nothing but old bones and corruption.

There is a certain type of person who beleves that can only totally control the entire outside world, then you will have inner security. Rather than go through the effort of controlling ones own inner world.


They simply beleve that if everyone thinks and beleives what they do, THEY will be alright.
THe only way to accomplish that is through fear, and fear is what creates the real fascist state.
IN fact the perfect police state needs no police. Just enough fear to make people behave the way you want them to.

[charlyvi]

34. Scary, Nicholas_J

But do you think there are enough of us to counter this? Do you think enough people have a goodness in their hearts that will tell them this is wrong thinking? I hope so.

[Nicholas_J]

43. Think about it again

The right insiststhat we must return to religious values in order for all of the promises of our constitution to become real, justice, freedom from want and so on. But the socieites in which the most social justice exists are the societies in which religion has nearly disappeared in them.
The Scandanavian Countries have the most social justice, the least poverty and violence, and membership in Christian Churches is nearly non-exixtant.

Then look at some non Christian Coutries like Thailand. Formally Buddhist. There is little poverty, and little hunger.

Even in Iraq, under Saddam Hussein, there was almost no poverty. Saddam left no child behind,as all children, male or female were entitled to education through university level.

No one died for lack of medical care, as every citizen had free access to the best medical care in the region, as Iraq was the most technologically advanced country in the middle east. Of course it was a dictqtorship, but remember whi is telling us how brutal Saddams regime was. There are plenty of dictatorships which are worse than Saddams, like Uzhbekistan and Belorus that are the U.S. is allied with. Even the U.S. does not rank very highly in Amnesty International's eyes when it comes to police brutality and death of prisoners. I have personal experience of this, having a family member who was arrested for being drunk and disorderly who was beaten to death by police. There are thousands of such cases a year in the U.S. but the government covers it up and refuses to allow observers to check such claims. Saddam may have been a brutal guy but there are plenty of brutal regimes that simply take the states money and give nothing to the people at all. One of the reasons that the resistance in Iraq is so brutal is that while the Iraqi people want democracy, they fear our free market economy will result in them not being as secure as they were under Saddam. They are highly educated people, with a higher rate of college graduates than in the U.S. and a far greater percentage of their professional jobs such as doctors, scientists. and engineers being women than the U.S. has. They are well aware of what happened in the states of the ex Soviet Union when it moved to a free market economy. Loss of health care, spiraling costs, a small group of people becoming rich while everyone else became poor.

Under Saddam the Iraqi people had a working "No child left behind system" and zero percent of its citizens lacked health care. Before the Gulf War, more children dies in the U.S. of poverty related conditions than in Iraq.

Yet Americans resist the secularization that has alowed the Scandanavian countries to eliminate poverty and injustice. Mostly because of effoert to block the methods of doing so by the right.

Mostly because the right has removed one fact that exists in Christianity. That greed is a deadly sin. The Religious and the Right have elevated it ro a virtue.

The scandanavians obtained their social justice by keeping it a sin.

[vet 65 69]

38. i got one of the chain emails had to reply

they had sent this out so i sent them all the true facts now they are all bitching about me spaming them maybe little pay back what do you think this is a bunch of bs so feel free to do what !!!!!!!!!!!!!


Subject: She makes Hillary sound like a Saint


BEWARE!

Following is a brief backround on Mrs. John Kerry .. She hates
being
called that, by the way:

Maria Teresa Thiersten Simoes-Ferreira Heinz Kerry. Married
Senator
Kerry in 1995. She only took his name eighteen months ago and she
is
an
"interesting" paradox of conflicts.

If you thought John Kerry was scary, he doesn't hold a candle to
his
wife Maria Teresa Thiersten Simoes-Ferreira Heinz Kerry was born
in
Mozambique, the daughter of a Portuguese physician, was educated
in
Switzerland and South Africa. Fluent in five languages, she was
working

[newyawker99]

45. Hi kilowat1946!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Leilani]

39. Because they are afraid.....Bush has scared them

out of their minds.

I saw a pollster or pundit, I think it was Chuck Todd earlier this evening. And he said people who believe the Iraq War is part of the War on Terror are Bush voters. And those who do not agree about Iraq being part of the War on Terror are Kerry voters.

The other thing: I watch C-Span every morning, & all the Bush voters call in & say {Bush will keep us safe.}

I think aside from the cultural issues, that is the reason.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. Authoritarian personalities

Some people just want to be told what to do.

Years ago, I read a book called Escape from Freedom by Erich Fromm. It was written in 1941 and talks about the psychology behind ordinary followers of Nazism, but as I remember it, it would still have a lot to say to us today.

[KayLaw]

42. The Straight Story is right

He or she makes some excellent points that should be considered. I think the wing nuts on AM radio got so popular because of a genuine feeling that Democrats wanted the government to control us to an extreme degree, and the events at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco gave them lots of fuel for their fire.

Unfortunately, their still listening and many don't see the far greater danger at hand, which is the Patriot Act. And the voices that once spoke against the big government are simply propagandists for a much bigger, fascist government that is the exact opposite of what they want.


It's sheer madness, if you ask me. Suddenly, the candidate who was an altar boy and war hero has to defend his record against a drunken war deserter who can barely put two words together. We're torturing, raping, and murdering complete innocents in foreign country but it's shrugged off as fraternity stunts. Working class people voting for an administration who wants to send their jobs to other countries. I blame most of this on the media. We don't need a liberal media, or a conservative media, but this corporate media is not serving any of us. The big corporations will move Heaven and Earth to get Bush elected and will happily demonize anyone who gets in their way, and that's one reason we're in this mess.