I am an example of what is wrong according to Jon Stewart,..

[kerryin2004]

and he is right..How many times have I referred to Bush as chimp boy.. How many times have I passed a rumor instead of discussing an issue.How many times have I mocked Bush for being a cheerleader..If it wasn't for our allowing the discourse to sink so low Jon Stewart would have nothing to complain about to CNN..

Republicans do it by calling Kerry a flip flopper and horse face. These immature acts allow the media to sink to the depths that they do..

It is very sad and Jon Stewart has made me rethink my whole joining of name calling and political bashing.We should stick to the issues, and unfortunately we no longer do.

[disgruntled_goat]

1. is it sad?

i would submit that anything that makes one reevaluate their actions and beliefs at such a fundemental level is a good thing.

now if only more people would get his message...and just think twice...about anything

[Mojambo]

2. This is part of the reason why

I have always refused to jump on the Bush nickname wagon here.

It makes us look small. Not as small as the Freepers, but why would we even want to be in their zip code on stuff like this?

[unblock]

3. there's a difference. we're partisans, cnn is supposedly not.

it's the media's job to present the issues in a way people can actually decide. that's not the job of partisans.

when cnn presents partisans, they need to moderate them forcefully, to keep pulling them back to issues, and to shoot them down when they insult and interrupt. these days, however, the moderators just join in the fray, usually on the republican side.

but there's nothing to be ashamed about us partisans calling them names, especially when they have a VERY big head start in that department. in fact, i'd say it's our duty. you can't let them have that part of the playing field all to themselves, that's a sure recipe for losing.

[kerryin2004]

9. I agree to an extent..

If we didn't allow the media to sink to the type of WWF type programming they present, then the level of discourse might stick to the issues.. The fact that we continue to watch as they allow the issues to become sound bytes that we enthusiastically grasp..We are our own worst enemies.. The media is the drug, but we are the user, and sinking to a WWF mentality only allows their outrageous presentations which they refer to as "news" to continue.

[w4rma]

4. Good points.

Imho, honor is what is often times missing from the big debate. Note, I still will never call that man "President" since his method of attaining power is a valid issue, however Mr. Bush will do fine.

[Eloriel]

6. Me too, w4rma -- I haven't (except on very rare occasions,

and then with a very bitter taste in my mouth) and never will willingly call him -- can't even type it: pResident is the closest I can come.

I noticed in the Town Hall debate there was at least one questioner who did not address him that way either. I loved it. Subtly damning.

[Eloriel]

5. Oh, bullshit

Don't get me wrong, I'm a-okay with lifting the quality of the discourse on both sides (tho our side is likely to be the only ones playing that game and who "wins" in that case?), but this:

These immature acts allow the media to sink to the depths that they do..

is just flat out wrong. If anything, the causation (IF ANY, and that's highly doubtful) probably goes in the other direction. But I blame the Repug, fascist politicians for their "might makes right" bullying and thuggery going back at least to the beginning of the Clinton administration. Anything, absolutely ANYthing was allowable, and it's not let up since. (Don't forget Gingrich and his infamous and demoagogic "list" of words to use against Dems and flag-wrapped list of words to use to describe themselves.)

That we on the Left have (finally) joined the fray at almost the same "low" level is not, perhaps, a good thing, but at the same time a lot of the name-calling is, IMO, hyperbolic, for the most part satirical and equally for the most part well-deserved.

[Maiden England]

7. That sure is a yummy humble pie there, Jon

I had lunch with a friend today, and we were discussing politics. I realized something. I was really longing for was serious political discourse. I actually don't want the dems to run everything. I don't necessarily agree with all the dem policies. However, I certainly wish the rest of the republican party would take their party back from the neo-cons. How refreshing would it be to have a serious debate about the issues at hand. How much do we long for the right and left to debate an issue and come up with a sensible compromise and a centrist policy. How wonderful would it be to embrace the ability to talk through an issue, each side bring arguments and ideas and be able to accept good points from the other's point of view. How much better would our country be if that were the case. What we need is political balance. I have myself slipped into name calling and insults to the President. I allowed myself to slip into disrespect. Well you know what Jon Stewart made me realize, that this makes me no better than the Freepers I 'despise'. The best way to deal with this, is to fight the 'good fight' make intelligent argument the focus, appeal to the 'right' to discuss and debate, not to debase and deride. If I disagree so strongly with the policies and behaviour of the incumbent, then it is so much more noble and moral to question, to present reasoned arguments, rather than hurl insults. Jon Stewart baked a big old tasty humble pie and I'm fixing to help myself to a large slice.

[Cat Atomic]

8. Not really. This site exists becuase of the problem Stewart talked about.

There is NO meaningful debate of the issues in the mainstream media. None.

Over the last 3 years, I've seen DU as a place where other views- the ones excluded in our 'Consume and Be Happy' media- can actually be shared. This place is a RESULT of the problem John Stewart described.

Sure, there's plenty of "Chimpy McCokespoon"-type of stuff (I've even got some of it in my signature), but it's born of frustration.

[Selwynn]

10. I agree with you - I also understand that its hard....

..when faced with such ridculous insanity and ruthlessness such as we are faced with now, its hard not to sometimes let emotions dominate all discourse, and in fact its often hard to have real discourse at all... because who's listening?

I recognize that challenge, even though I frequently lament the degeneration of politics into hate-based shit-slinging slime fests on all sides.

[kerryin2004]

14. I saw Gen Wesley Clark today speak..

and he referred to Bush as a cheerleader.Chances are that sound byte will be the one that makes it on the air, and they will not include any of the issues that he presented.. This is the problem, and we allow it to continue by watching this shit.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

15. The people on DU aren't General Clark

and they aren't speaking in front of a crowd of people in things that will get on the news. It doesn't obscure anything. The people on this site already hate Bush or at very least very strongly dislike him. We aren't out to influence ourselves into not voting for him here.

[kerryin2004]

20. I agree..

but we set an example that is picked up by the media.The media knows that we woul rather watch Crossfire or Hardball then a show that debated the issue..It is a real juvenile WWf mentality that they have captured.

[Selwynn]

22. What I loved about Clark was his stump speeches on New Patriotism

There was something in his idealistic talk that hit home with me. He had such and optimistic vision of recovering the greatest spirit of statesmanship and American discourse and it always made me emotional. It made me emotional because I believe statesmanship is the biggest thing missing from every side of politics today.

[Skittles]

11. oh, F*** THAT

if Bush was a REAL president maybe I'd think differently but the fact is HE IS NOT A REAL PRESIDENT.

[Kanary]

12. I applaud you! We have to start with ourselves........

This isn't the first time in the history of the world that a group of people have rebelled against the rullers in charge.

What usually happens is that the rebels are part of the larger society, and don't look to see what parts of that society they are carrying within themselves.

So, those seeds continue to germinate, and the next generation of problems bloom.

Looking to yourself, as you have done, is the first step in sincerely working to make a BETTER, HEALTHIER society.

I applaud you, and hope you find many willing to listen to what you're saying......... we ALL need to hear it!

Peace to you!

Kanary

[SemiCharmedQuark]

13. If I were to discuss a critical issue with someone not already dem

I would refer to him as Bush. But when talking to people on DU here? Hell no. This is a site for dems and progressives. If it were a site for political discourse between dems and repubs, well...for one thing, Repubs would be allowed on it.

Furthermore, I am not a source people turn to when they are seeking guidance and information on political affairs. I'm not supposed to be impartial. This "president" has never treated ME or most of the country with respect, why should I treat him with respect? I really really hate the man. Shouldn't I be who I am? Why should I feign respect?

[kerryin2004]

17. It is not an issue of respect..

It is an issue of allowing campaigns to sink to a level of juvenile discourse... If someone says Kerry is horse face, instead of hitting back with monkey boy, we should ask why his looks are so important and what policies of his would they like to discuss.. We need to be the ones to move it away from all the bullshit because if you go strictly on issues, there is no way Kerry could lose..Bush wouldn't even be close..I have volunteered the last two days and I have to listen to these people refer to Kerry as a flip flopper, etc...The level of discourse is pathetic. I Will admit, there side seems to be the worst at it, but I have also engaged in it, and I will not allow them to drag me into this WWF junior high mentality anymore..

[SemiCharmedQuark]

19. Ahh, you mean when discussing with the other side?

Yeah, I try to avoid the Chimp stuff...mostly because as you say it is difficult to get them to agree with an opinion whereas they cannot argue on facts.

Sorry, I misunderstood!

:hi:

[kerryin2004]

24. Not just the other side..

I think we allow it to feed into the mainstream, and that is the problem.. The whole flip flopper label wasn't started by the media.. That started on the INTERNETS and then progressed to the media.. They saw that it was getting alot of attention and then they started to use it.. We have created the media monster, only the way it is unfairly biased towards the right is a detriment to our cause..

[SemiCharmedQuark]

25. Erm, no, that I can't agree with.

The media chooses what it wants to air. If it aired all the stuff on here, Kerry would be winning by a landslide. Hell, if it even aired the "low" stuff on here, Kerry would win by a landslide. There are many great debate points on here and they are not taken by the media. The only labels that the media has placed on Bush that he has not earned is the "chimp" label. Contrast that with all the labels that Kerry has NOT earned that they do broadcast.

[Bluebear]

16. I don't think the two are at all related.

What we do here in our comfort zone is far different. We are not broadcasters. We do not pretend to be 'fair and balanced'. 'Just sticking to the issues' and not allowing people to share their frustration means stifling the anger that we as Democrats have never been 'allowed' to express. This anger has propelled and motivated a lot of people. If we just stick to the issue and "tell our side" we'll lose again and again whilst the Roves and Gingriches of the world do their thing.

[Soup Bean]

18. and then, of course, he called Carlson a "dick".

LOL

[kerryin2004]

21. Carlson is a dick..

and couldn't understand what Jon Stewart was trying to explain to him.. That is why Carlson responded with the Now you're getting into it.Stewart gave him what he expects and what he wants. The best part was when the guy asked about the hump on Bush' back and Stewart ignored it like it wasn't news worthy and there was Begala to jump in and answer it.. Stewart stuck it to them hard..I only hope they will be smart enough to learn the lesson that he taught them.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

23. What a load of crap....

...unless you're a member of the journalistic community, you're not obligated to be considerate of anyone in public office unless it's your personal desire to be polite.

Additionally, the discourse was brought down to this level because of the commentary of the rightwingers who attempted to drive Clinton from office.

[kerryin2004]

26. Where did the flip flopper label start??

It wasn't in the media.. The media saw an opportunity to use a label that was successful for them. They show their lack of integrity by allowing themselves to fall into this WWF mentality, but we start it.. The media is wrong for only picking up sound bytes like the Bush was a cheerleader, but we are wrong for starting the crap and watching it..

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. "But we start it"???? Start what?? We who??? The NeoCons....

...started using the "flip-flopper" comment and the media blew it beyond any reasonable proportion.

You want to continue taking their crap? Fine! But don't expect too many people to join your parade of "Daschle bend-overs".

[kerryin2004]

40. WE, as in all Americans..

We watch the media giving the BS sound bytes.. It is our entire society that is as fault because we do not hold the media up to higher standards..



I agree, I don't want to take their juvenile shit, but we have allowed the media to sink to this level..Granted, the right are the most responsibe with Faux neews and Rush...

[sendero]

27. If I were a print or TV journalist...

... I'd agree with you, but I'm not.

That being so, I'm free to call Bush* chimpy, dumbya, dim son, moran, etc,etc,etc.

And I just did.

[mikehiggins]

28. If I get attacked by a mugger and I fight back, is that sad?

Possibly you are one of those folks who think all aggression is the result of misundertandings. That is not the case. The GOPukes are, at present, headed by a cabal of liars and thieves who are despoiling our economy, bankrupting our children and raping the environment.

They also lie quite a bit.

So how do you deal with them? To me, you fight them tooth and nail until they are driven back into the fetid swamp that spawned them.

Then you can talk nice.

[kohodog]

29. do you mean i shouldn't call bunnypants "chimpy?"

or smirky, asshole, warmonger, moron, etc? Takes all he fun out of it. When I look seriously at all the damage he has done and the sorrow he has caused I am troubled and saddened.

Your point is well taken, but around here we can still have some fun.

[Maiden England]

30. I have a little caveat. I think that 'they' wind us up so much

that sometimes you just want to unleash a torrent back. You know you can't sink to their mudslinging to their face, because it just sinks you to their level, but 'they' (and we ALL know who they ARE, ahem, Tucker) piss you off so much you just want to scream at their purelent little faces, fuck off you fucking fuck, go fuck yourself. Which is why places like the DU exist.
And actually Plastic_Turkeys point is really spot on, it was the outrage that brought me here, that got me involved, it wound me up until I started to write letters. Now, I'm simply going to 'evolve' my efforts.

[Zookeeper]

31. Wait a minute! This is DU, not an "objective" media outlet!

Sometimes I feel like I live in Fundieville. I have two fundamentalist Baptist colleges within two miles of my home, my neighborhood seems to be a 50/50 split, I have personally heard a heap o'crappy reasons for supporting our illegitimate, phony, warmongering, fratboy, fascist, loser, dry-drunk, pandering, delusional, arrogant, shallow, lying, immature, rigid, stupid, immature, clumsy, offensive pResident! I have even argued at 4:30 am with a repub friend, who hates Bush, couldn't tell me one good thing that Bush has done in the last four years and couldn't tell me WHY he will still vote for him!

If I can't call Bushwad names on DU, I will implode!

[booley]

32. I'm of mixed feelings

limited partisanship and the politcal brawling is fun and it can be good. Just in small doses. And it's been proven that the act of telling off somebody you think is wrong hits the pleasure centers of your brain. (and Gods know I have trouble letting somebody say something I know is untrue)

Personally I think Paul begala is way funny becuase he works to be so over the top in his partisanship. So much of politics is theatre. That's what makes it interesting. Otherwise we would all be watching talking head shows like the body politic (though for the record I do watch the body politic but I have an unusually long attention span)
I also think the jokes help keep us sane as we slowly come to realize just how much things have gotton worse.

it's when that theatre replaces honest dialogue that we get into trouble, obvioulsy.

making fun of Bush' s aversion to the english language is funny but who here can honestly say that's the reason they won't vote for him? if Shrub suddenly became the most eloquent speaker in the world, would that make up for all the stuff he has done while in office?

And as for kerry, can anyone here honestly say they have no qualms or disagreements with kerry/edwards. ( hell, when edwards came ot Missouri after the gay marriage ban ammendment was passed, I wanted to bitch slap for seeming to make political advantage of my (and thousands of other's) misfortune. but I got over it. I know that he couldn't really have said anything else. And I plan on working to change the political climate so that a politician can openly endorse equal marriage rights. And if edwards can't endorse my relationship then, then we will have words.

maybe from now on, we can still make fun of the other side (becuase, c'mon, they practicaly write our material for us!) but we should also concentrate on the stuff that actually affects us. In fact, why not combine the two?

As for the media, yeppers, we do need to remind them as well that some stories are simply NON-ISSUES. I mean, I talk BS al the time with my friends. Doesn't mean I want to hear it on the evening news. (And from what I have seen onthe news and then read on project censored about what the news didn't report on, there's a lot of fluff disguised as news)

I don't know, maybe I'm rambling. Ignore me.

[Zookeeper]

34. Nope. Not rambling...

making fun of Bush's incoherence is really just shorthand for our frustration with the appalling actions of BushCo. Lately I've felt almost speechless because the record of Smirk's mismanagement and wrong-headed ideology has almost overwhelmed me.

For those of us who are not living in a predominately liberal area, humor is only way to survive the pragmatism we have to adopt.

[LuminousX]

33. I agree and I am equally as guilty

We must do better, but we must follow Jon's footsteps and BEG the media to help us.

[Q]

35. You're not an example...unless you're part of the American media...

...which was Jon's point.

[jdj]

37. yes, thanks, or I demand my D.U. paycheck immediately.

I want first billing, I want my own dressing room, and I want M&Ms, with the green ones picked out. And Wonder Bread.

What? I'm not on the payroll? I have no responsibility to my audience because I have no audience? Whew, good, then back to saying any damn thing I please. God Bless America.

[JCMach1]

38. Satire, caricature, and character assassination have been

part of American politics since the beginning...

[ibegurpard]

39. No, you completely missed his point

Which was that the MEDIA is totally failing in its responsibility to go after the truth and instead is a willing participant in politicians' game-playing.