Steel & Glass: The October Plame Surprise!

[H2O Man]

"Furthermore, there is intense anger over the White House's revealing the identity of Plame, who may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components. ... 'Only a very high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the payroll' of the CIA, an intelligence source told me."
-- Joe Klein; Plenty More to Swear About; TIME; 7-5-04

Four months ago on the Democratic Underground, we began the Plame Threads, which focused on the White House outing of CIA operative Valerie Plame. Her husband, Joseph Wilson, had authored a 7-6-03 op-ed piece in the New York Times regarding his investigation of documents that claimed that Iraq had sought to buy yellow cake uranium from Niger.

President Bush had focused on this claim in his 2003 State of the Union address. It served as a large part of his excuse to invade Iraq. What Wilson's article showed was that not only was this claim false, but the White House had known it was untrue long before Bush included it in his speech.

The article by Wilson resulted in the White House admitting that the Niger documents were not accurate. In Wilson's book, he notes that "Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security adviser, was as cogent as he was concise. Since the Bush people never backed down, he pointed out, the fact that they were so quick to admit their error this time meant that they must have something more important to protect." (Wilson; The Politics of Truth; pg 4)

Today, as DUers already know, the country may be a giant step closer to knowing the truth about the Plame case: Karl Rove testified for over two hours to the federal grand jury investigating the criminal conspiracy to "out" a CIA operative.

In fact, for the past two weeks, we have seen the federal judge overseeing the grand jury proceedings has sentenced two journalists to jail for being in contempt of court. They remain free while they appeal. Many people mistakenly believe that this is about "freedom of the press," and reporter's need to protect the identity of their sources.

But the Plame case is far more complexe and involves different issues. Federal laws allow reporters to protect the identities of "whistle-blowers," who are exposing government corruption and crime. In this case, at least three reporters are linked with the commission of a crime by the most corrupt government officials. Far from being "whistle-blowers," these weasles have committed serious crimes that jeopardized national security.

"I just got off the phone with Karl Rove. He says, and I quote,'Wilson's wife is fair game.' I will confirm that if asked."
--MSNBC's Chris Matthews to Wilson; The Politics of Truth; pg 1)

Earlier in the investigation, President Bush, VP Cheney, Colin Powell, and Karl Rove had all met with Patrick Fitzgerald's office to discuss the case. It is known that Bush and Cheney had hired outside attorneys, in order to enjoy the "client-attorney privilege" that would not have been afforded when consulting a Justice Department attorney. There are reports that John Hannah, a high-ranking official in the VP's office, had been "turned" by Fitzgerald's office. Also, several journalists have testified secretly before the grand jury.

It is known that Karl Rove participated in the conspiracy to expose Valerie Plame. Wilson writes: "According to my sources, between March 2003 and the appearance of my article in July, the workshop on me that turned up information on Valerie was shared was shared with Karl Rove, who then circulated it in administration and neoconservative circles." (Wilson; pg 443)

"Apparently, according to two journalist sources of mine, when Rove learned that he might have violated the law, he turned on Cheney and Libby and made it clear that he held them responsible for the problem they had created for the administration." (Wilson; pg 444)

That brings us to today. Rove knew he was on the hot seat. Had he lied before when he met with "the Bulldog," as Fitzgerald is known? Had he recognized from the highlights of Martha Stewart's case what happens to those who lie to a federal investigator? Did he know that the reporters he spouted off to had testified to that fact? And that John Hannah had implicated him? Did he know this when he was asked to raise his right hand, and swear to tell the truth?

One thing is for sure: he knew it when the federal marshalls walked him out of the courthouse, to the waiting limo. Once in the vehicle, Karl Rove immediately started making calls on his cell phone. And I think we know the first person he called.

The fact that this news was posted on close to 200 major media websites concerned the Bush administration. The response by the Kerry campaign and DNC startled them. The fact that Americans across the country may be reading about Karl Rove testifying in front of this grand jury scares them, because if the public knows Karl is one target of the probe, rather than a witness trying to help uncover the truth, then Bush loses the election.

I have been on the phone much of the afternoon and evening, discussing how the grass-roots activists on DU can best help to bring this story to the public's attention. Clearly, there will not be indictments and convictions before the election. And we can't really trust the news media to report the story accurately.... not when several journalists are so closely tied to the crime.

But what we can do is start a letter-to-the-editor campaign that focuses on Karl Rove and the grand jury. In the final weeks before an election, LTTE are one of the most closely read sections of any newspaper. In fact, you will notice that the republican machine begins to flood most newspapers with letters at this point. We need to do that, too.

Sometimes it is hard to appreciate what good it really does to take the time and make the effort to write a letter to a newspaper. The Bush administration is hoping that you don't follow through. In fact, they are counting on it. But we're counting on you to help with this. Please write even a brief letter explaining your concerns. Note that Rove could have cleared this whole scandal up a year ago if he had told the truth. Mention as another DUer did that the White House outing Plame did far more damage to the country than Kerry did by mentioning Cheney's daughter. But more than anything, explain that the Plame outing is Cheney's baby. Now there's a real outing!

[crispini]

1. Oh, yeah, baby.

Good idea. I'm almost off to bed... will hit the writing desk tomorrow.

please, ya'll, post your sample LTTEs here... I always get good ideas from everyone.

[Technowitch]

2. Yessir! Will do.

[shraby]

3. I'm in

[shraby]

4. Kick this thread!!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[H2O Man]

10. Hi, Shraby!

This has been a long time coming!

I notice that Rove's attorney is quick to say that Karl is not the target of the probe. "Old-timers" on the Plame threads will remember that way back, we noted he was not a tough guy who would hold out. I had refered to him as the "Pilsbury Dough Boy," because I understand he turned soft when he found out that he was caught.

His goal, besides saving his own backside, is to protect the president. And at this point, the only way to do that is to implicate "all the vice president's men."

[Me.]

16. Hey Shraby

As you were the originator of the Plame threads, it's terrific to see you here. Seems like years ago doesn't it?

[burrowowl]

5. KICK

[TacticalPeek]

6. Eggggcellent!

Cheney is the man. (Apologies to Nathan)

:kick:

[ralps]

7. Thanks for all your hard work H2O Man

I've been reading all the various Plame Indictment threads ever since I read about them over at Smirking Chimp. I hope to write my local paper soon. I saved most of the threads to my computer so if anyone needs me to post anything I will. I love you all.

[kohodog]

8. Link to DU National Media list

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x816939

But LTTE's need to be sent to your local Media too.

[Keirsey]

9. kick from page two

[TacticalPeek]

11. Kick for the power of the pen.

:kick:

[H2O Man]

12. The Power of the Pen!!!!

From "Worse Than Watergate" by John Dean (pages 175-6):


The known facts -- that the activities involved two (or more) senior officials -- indicate that there is evidence of a criminal conspiracy. That criminal conspiracy is ongoing, and now involved with covering up the initial crime, thus creating secondary transgressions. (Sound familiar?) The federal law of conspiracy, along with the federal laws dealing with obstruction of justice, are among the most far-reaching of the federal criminal laws. Whether they know it or not, the Bush II White House -- given this active and ongoing criminal activity -- has dangers it has never dreamed possible by not ending this matter itself. It is only going to get worse before it gets better."

The power of the pen, indeed!

[theHandpuppet]

13. Kick for a worthy and important thread

Thanks, H2O Man!

[Trajan]

14. Great Thread .....

Gotta KICK it with a FP nomination ....

[Me.]

15. Great To Have A new Thread

One thing that confuses me though, I was under the assumption that Rove was "cooperating". Is this no longer so. And I'd like to repeat a question that SeemslikeaDream asked on another thread. Why was he accompanied by two marshals yesterday and who do you think the unidentified man was?

[H2O Man]

17. Federal Marshalls

often accompany witnesses that present possible security concerns in and out of a federal courtroom.

I want you to think about something.Think of fellows like Scooter Libby, who fancies himself a James Bond character. I'm not joking -- he does. Next consider Eliot Abrams, an old-time con man. Then think about Karl Rove. Who is Fitzgerald going to see as the weak link in the chain?

Karl fits into an interesting personality type. He is a kind of classic very smart nerd. In gym class, Karl is the last kid picked for any team. Who loses the game for any team with Karl on it? Yep. Right or wrong (and of course it is wrong) Karl was picked on by the other kids. He is not good looking. He is plump. He was the last kid in the class to hit puberty, and was picked on in the showers. Karl is an angry young man. He drops out of college.

At this point in his life, Karl is not that different than a Mark David Chapman. The only difference is that he does not have a psychotic disorder. But he is furious because no one but his mother recognizes he is extremely smart. In fact, Karl knows he is a lot smarter than any other the people who torment him.

He joins the republican social outlet that offers support to his kind. And he meets his long-lost unidentical twin: a stupid fellow who has no particular talents, who is at best an average athlete, but who has all the social graces of a rich kid who loves to get plastered, and is willing to spend his dad's money on booze and other things.

In police science, there are certain classic "pairs": heck, even the police use "good cop/bad cop" pairing to their advantage. Then in burglary cases, the police often look for a "Mutt & Jeff" pair, with one suspect being tall and dumb, following directions of a short and relatively smarter partner. In violent crime, such as the classic "In Cold Blood," they look for a sociopath who gets a rush from savagery, matched with a less-intelligent partner who is psychotic.

Rove & Bush fit another pattern. Karl handles the controls, and Bush presents the semi-public face. But Rove is aware that the public can be cruel, and that they pick on people .... he knows this from personal experience. So he is overly concerned the public will find out that George is a dope. He structures George's public persona. The social facade that we call Bush is, I believe, in large part a Rovian anima. (I am curious what friend JackPine Radical could add to this?)

Fitzgerald knows that Rove is an angry, hostile lad. He knows that Karl wants to protect George. And he knows Karl doesn't want to end up in jail .... which is like a never-ending locker room for fellows like Karl.

Now, tell me: did Karl say, "You're wasting your time with me, Fitz. I'm not talking, no matter what the consequence!" Or did he point his finger at the kids he's hated since first grade, and squeal, "They did it! they're the ones!" ?

[Me.]

19. That's The Best Analysis I've Ever Read Of Rove

not surprised, of course. As we already know that there is a schism between the pRes's and veep's office, and while we know it's not in their interest to fight it out in public now, if they lose the election, can we look forward to open warfare between the two offices? And who was that unidentified man do you think? His lawyer or a prosecutor who prepared him for his testimony?

[H2O Man]

20. he was an attorney.....

and I think we can safely call him "Monte Hall."

[merh]

97. Do you think Rovey is quacking up?

<>
McGUIRE AIR FORCE BASE, N.J. - Karl Rove laid himself on the line Monday for his boss, the president of the United States.

That is, he laid himself under the wheels of Air Force One. Reason: Unclear, but it seems to have been an inside joke between Rove and President Bush (news - web sites).




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=915078

[ocean girl]

18. H2OMan, I have read every single Plame thread

and you have enlightened me more than you will ever know.

I pledge to write 10 letters today in honor of you and your brilliant teaching.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Peace.

[H2O Man]

21. Thank you!

While I am fully aware that this is a group effort, and that I am at best a member of a team, I appreciate your kind words. But even more than that, I appreciate that you are taking the time to write those ten lertters. And here's why:

What is the only way that this country could lose it's status as a constitutional democracy, and become a dictatorship or fascist state? It can only happen if the citizens, people like you and Me and me, lose our grip on the US Constitution. We need to treasure that Bill of Rights, and recognize that it is the life force in our democracy. It's not the senators and representatives that can save America from the Bush administration. They couldn't, even if they wanted to .... and there are very few brave enough to try. (See the opening scenes of Michael Moore's F 9-11.)

Democracy is from the grass roots. It's people being aware of the consequences of even temporarily suspending our responsibility to hold the government to the same standard we hold ourselves to. Think about how many times Halliburton has been caught red-handed, stealing from the public coffers, even just in Iraq? You tell me what job you've had where you wouldn't get fired for stealing, especially about the 4th or 5th time?

See what happens when you say something nice to me? I start running at the mouth! (grin)

[RedEagle]

23. Don't Ever Stop "Running!"

Kickk!

[seemslikeadream]

22. Rove Testifies in Wilson Leak

Under the 1982 Intelligence Identities Protection Act, it is a crime for someone with authorized access to classified information to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert agent. Shortly after the investigation started, Bush ordered everyone in the administration to provide "full cooperation" with the investigation, and Republican National Committee Chairman Ed Gillespie said the disclosure of Plame's name could be worse than Watergate "in terms of the real-world implications of it." But nobody has come forward to admit to being a source for Novak's column. Besides Rove, a number of other White House aides, including counsel Alberto Gonzales, have gone before the grand jury.

Rove's grand jury appearance comes as Fitzgerald is aggressively pursuing the testimony of two other journalists ensnared in the case, Time's Matthew Cooper and Judith Miller of the New York Times. Three days after Novak’s column appeared, Cooper and two colleagues wrote an article for Time Magazine’s Website saying that “government officials” had told them that Wilson’s wife was a CIA official. Miller was subpoenaed to testify about sources she spoke to while reporting on Wilson, though she never published anything on the subject.

U.S. District Judge Thomas Hogan found Cooper in contempt of court on Wednesday, for the second time, for refusing to testify. (Cooper’s first contempt citation was rescinded when he gave limited information to prosecutors after a source, Lewis I. “Scooter” Libby, chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, authorized him and several other journalists to discuss their confidential conversations.) Miller was found in contempt last week. She and Cooper, citing the need for journalists to be able to protect their sources, are appealing the rulings jointly, but no decision is expected from the appeals court until mid-to-late November. They could each face up to 18 months in jail if they lose their appeal.

Novak’s status continues to be a mystery; neither he nor his lawyer, Jim Hamilton, will talk about their contacts with prosecutors. Lawyers for other witnesses in the case have concluded that Novak is cooperating, since he has not been held in contempt. But even if Novak is cooperating and has revealed his sources, these lawyers say, Fitzgerald would want to talk to other journalists to strengthen any case he might bring. And the prosecutor may be seeking to substantiate a Sept. 2003 Washington Post story, which quoted an administration source saying that two top White House officials disclosed Plame's identity to at least six Washington journalists in retribution for Wilson's comments. The leak was "meant purely and simply for revenge," the official said. Fitzgerald might want to learn if those two officials were the same ones who talked to Novak. Each instance of disclosure of Plame's identity would be a separate crime
more
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,724804,00.html

[Mandate My Ass]

24. Compare and contrast

Steno Sue's attempt at a whitewash:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A35713-2004Oct15?language=printer

Fitzgerald has questioned four reporters about their conversations with I. Lewis Libby, Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, and is seeking to question a fifth, New York Times reporter Judith Miller. Fitzgerald has been told by reporters that either the subject of Wilson's wife did not come up in their phone conversations with Libby or it was introduced by the reporters. The reporters are from Time magazine, The Washington Post and NBC.

During a July 12, 2003, conversation, according to a source involved in the investigation, Time reporter Matthew Cooper told Libby that he had been informed by other reporters that Wilson's wife was a CIA employee. Libby, the source said, replied that he had heard the same thing, also from the press corps.

with this Time magazine piece:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,724804,00.html

Novak’s status continues to be a mystery; neither he nor his lawyer, Jim Hamilton, will talk about their contacts with prosecutors. Lawyers for other witnesses in the case have concluded that Novak is cooperating, since he has not been held in contempt. But even if Novak is cooperating and has revealed his sources, these lawyers say, Fitzgerald would want to talk to other journalists to strengthen any case he might bring. And the prosecutor may be seeking to substantiate a Sept. 2003 Washington Post story, which quoted an administration source saying that two top White House officials disclosed Plame's identity to at least six Washington journalists in retribution for Wilson's comments. The leak was "meant purely and simply for revenge," the official said. Fitzgerald might want to learn if those two officials were the same ones who talked to Novak. Each instance of disclosure of Plame's identity would be a separate crime.


It's utter nonsense to suggest reporters know who our covert operatives are and that the vice president's office casually discusses the subject with them. Someone high up on the food chain approached reporters to aid him in committing a crime. This person is not a source and there is no First Amendment issue to hide behind. Even if discrediting Wilson was somehow vital to the public interest, national security would naturally trump that.

Also, why would the leaker admit that the leak was purely revenge? Would that elevate them whistleblower status? How can someone be a source if a reporter never wrote a story? That's what a source is, someone who provided crucial information vital to the public interest for publication, and is therefore to have their identity protected.

While i would never underestimate Rove, I wouldn't overestimate him either. It seems as though he has only two strategies that he relies upon: the full frontal assault, and the behind-the-scenes smear with variations on those two. Someone who would go this far for revenge is someone who may be smart but lacks impulse control and the foresight to see how his actions could backfire in the long run. Your analysis of him as someone still harboring the bullied child, but is also drunk with power, fits with the M.O. of whomever was behind this leak.

There is a lot more going on here than meets the eye, and certainly more than what the media is reporting or else I believe we'd have seen indictments by now.

[H2O Man]

25. great point. very important!

DUers will no doubt remember Clifford May, the former RNC staffer who wrote a republican response to Ambassador Wilson in the National Review Online. May is, of course, now the president of "front" that's "advisory board" includes: Newt Gingrich, James Woolsey, Richard Perle, and Charles Kraunthammer. Clifford wrote, among other nonsense, that Valerie Plame's identity as a CIA operative who specialize in the clandestine collection of foreign intel, covert ops, and espionage.

Plame's true career was a secret to her family, friends, and neighbors.... until Robert Novak exposed her. But if we are to take Mr. May at his word, we are to believe that a large group of administration officials, retired intelligence officers connected to the republican party,journalists, and neoconservatives knew about her work.

How can that be?

The answer is that after the VP's "think tank" decided that Wilson posed a threat to their being behind the forged Niger documents, they did an intensive study to see how they could deal with him. As Wilson notes on page 443 in his book, sources have said that this information was shared with Rove, who then circulated it to the administration officials, intel retirees, journalist, and neocons.

Think about the implications, perhaps especially in regard to the media.

[freeminder]

36. gotta love this preemptive legal war

between The Truth and Bush*co

[Mandate My Ass]

26. A rough draft of my LTTE

Editorial suggestions and critique most welcome.

For almost an entire week now, American airwaves and newsprint have been saturated by seemingly endless reports, polls, commentary and analysis of the mention of Mary Cheney’s name by Sen. John Kerry during the final presidential debate. These stories for the most part were prompted by and focused on the outrage of Vice President and Mrs. Cheney at the mere mention of their daughter’s self-professed sexual orientation.

What was not getting much notice was the ongoing grand jury investigation into the leak of former covert CIA operative, Valerie Plame, who specialized in tracking the sales of weapons of mass destruction.

Vice President Cheney has never expressed outrage, nor has he ever commented on the fact that the evidence strongly suggests this leak most likely came from his office.

President Bush, who initially promised to get to the bottom of the affair many months ago, seems to have forgotten his vow amid his near non-stop campaigning. He has painted Senator Kerry as someone who cannot be trusted to protect Americans from distant enemy threats, yet he has failed to protect us, as well as a valuable CIA asset, from the members of his own cabinet.

Monica_L

[Me.]

27. That's A Wonderful Letter

I particularly liked, "yet he has failed to protect us, as well as a valuable CIA asset, from the members of his own cabinet."

[Mandate My Ass]

28. Thanks, Me.

I've tweaked it a little bit, mostly just to clean it up and add that Kerry is a decorated veteran.:)

[H2O Man]

29. Great!

Very well done.

[Mandate My Ass]

31. Thanks

I forgot how galling it was to refer to the dastardly duo as "president" and "vice president."

[NewJeffCT]

79. nice job

I like your opening line - my I use something similar as a basis for starting my LTTE?

I think you also might want to mention Rove's name and list him as Bush's closest advisor.

[Mandate My Ass]

80. Thanks and sure, help yourself

I wish I had the finalized version with me here at work but I did clean it up a bit and add a few details because I think most people are unaware of this affair. Few of the people whom I consider informed dems (non DUers) know about this and when I tell them their mouths fall open in shock.

[NewJeffCT]

82. Let us know if you get published anywhere

I'm getting better at LTTEs - I've had several published in the past 6 weeks now in local publications (Hartford (CT)Courant and a smaller local) - so, I think I know a bit about what it takes to make it into a newspaper, and I think yours definitely qualifies.

[Mandate My Ass]

84. I haven't heard anything

and they always call before they publish the letter, mostly just to ask if they can use your email addy and such.

I'm going to send it to another paper or two when I go home tonight.

Congrats on your success with LTTEs. That's why I put mine up there, a new set of eyes is always helpful and others who've had success can give tips.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

30. Can't get it out of my head

that the whole point of this exercise was to stop Ms Plame and her team from pursuing what they were working on. I mean that if Bush*Co wanted to use the phony Niger yellowcake docs in their run up to war, why not just do it and not send someone to check them out? When Amb Wilson arrived in Niger the US ambassador told him something like cheese louise, I already said this was a crock. I don't mean to imply that Wilson is some kind of "chump." He's a man of high integrity and as such would carry out his assignment in an honest manner. Then, after he makes his report and the docs are used anyway, said integrity is on the line. He speaks out and then Bush*Co has a "reason" to "retaliate."

[H2O Man]

37. Any time there are reports of the sale

of "yellow cake," the international community agrees that the evidence must be submitted to the International Atomic Energy Agency. Now, remember that VP Cheney had been pressuring the CIA about the Niger documents and other things. From Wilson: "On June 12, Walter Pincus filed this report in the Washington Post:'a senior CIA analyst said the case "is indicative of a larger problem" involving the handling of intelligence about Iraq's alleged chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs and its links to al Qaeda, which the administration cited as justification of the war. "Information not consistent with the administration's agenda was discarded and information that was was not seriously scrutinized," the analyst said.

"As the controversy over Iraqi intelligence has expanded with failure so far of U.S. teams in Iraq to uncover proscribed weapons, intelligence officials have accused senior administration policymakers of pressuring the CIA or exaggerating intelligence information to make the case for the war." (page 6)

Two other people had already investigated the Niger documents. They were Ambassador Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick and four-star General Carleton Fulford. Both completely discredited the documents in their reports. Cheney pressured the CIA to send someone else. Wilson went in Feb. '02, and his report came to the same conclusion as the two others.

Wilson made an oral report to the CIA upon his return; there is reason to believe it was repeated by CI officials to VP Cheney in March. The White House continued to mention the report as evidence against Iraq. It was included in a State Department "fact sheet" published on 12-19-02; it was "scrubbed" soon after. And of course it would reappear in Bush's State of the Union address.

The British had possession of the documents, and refused to share much of their information about them with the IAEA. Still, by March 7 of 2003, (two months after the Bush speech), the IAEA reported that the documents were forgeries. The following day, a State Dept official told CNN "we fell for it," and Wilson said the administration had more information on the documents.

That afternoon, there was a meeting in VP Cheney's office where it was decided that those present would produce a workup on Wilson to discredit him if he exposed their forged documents to the public.

I hope that makes it clearer.

[kohodog]

38. geeze h20,

Stop beating around the bush!!

Great Post.

[H2O Man]

39. David Kelly Blues .....

"Four days after Novak's article, Britain was convulsed by the suicide of a former weapons inspector named David Kelly, a longtime civil servant in the ministry of defense. Kelly had been a source for the BBC's expose' of the charge that the government had exaggerated the threat posed by Saddam. He had been under increasing pressure from the investigation and had apparently killed himself. I received several calls from friends wondering, first, whether it had been in fact a suicide; and, if not, was I watching my own security? They also wanted to know how I was bearing up under the pressure. I, too, wondered about Kelly's death and later told a BBC producer that I hoped the inquest into his death would be credible.

"I was horrified that I could actually harbor suspicions -- ones that were also being expressed by others -- that a democratic government might actually do harm to a political opponent." (Wilson; page 349)

Random thoughts on why some people may be too intimidated to speak out on what they know about this case ......

[kohodog]

40. An amazing number of good people have died in small plane crashes.

And other "sort of" explained circumstances. It is also hard for people to seem credible when the smear machine gets going. If the evidence isn't airtight they will run you out of town on a rail.

But we have a number of true patriots like Wilson who are willing to take them on. I expect more will come forward regardless of the outcome of the election. Some may be biding their time until circumstances change.

[burrowowl]

41. Random thought

Plame was on the trail of Pakistan and .......
Among others of course ....
And maybe U$ people .... where have all the Nuke-related stuff in Iraq gone!?

[EST]

42. Y'know-this still ain't amakin' sense...

Why the hell would Wilson write that he was horrified he could be suspicious that a democratic government might do harm?
I don't get it. Any of us can easily imagine our government, and arguably any administration that there ever was, could certainly do and probably has done much harm, probably even murder, to any one they considered an enemy of the state, and by extension an enemy of that particular administration. That is no great leap, so is Wilson practicing a bit of editorial license, or is he trying to say something else, entirely? After all, he should be far more intimately familiar with the vagaries of those spooks than the average citizen.

The outing out Plame caused some serious realignment and may well have resulted in some deaths down the line. The letters I am writing are rather firm, although, living out in the boonies and not getting out very much, I have to resort to their generosity of spirit rather than their hope financial remuneration for subscriptions.

Your devotion is truly inspiring...

[H2O Man]

49. " a coup d'etat within the State (Dept)"

Good questions .... if people have specific questions such as Rev Russell, please post them. It means that very likely others have the same question. I'll try to answer them, to the best of my ability, or as the situation allows.

Remember that Wilson has been a republican all of his life. Served this country under the first President Bush with honor in Iraq. Faced down the Iraqi dictator. But his politics are not entirely liberal by any means.

Within the context of the Bush 2 administration, he found a level of dishonesty and an anti-American agenda that made him realize the republican party has been taken over. Let's go to page 434-5 of Wilson's book. (Some DUers may be familiar with this passage; please excuse me if I am repeating some passages, but I feel they may benefit other readers.)

"President Bush could fundamentally change the direction of his administration by firing fewer than fifteen senior officials, beginning with those signatories of the Project for the New American Century and those currently holding government posts who signed a 1998 letter that urged President Clinton to wage war on Iraq. They are clustered at the National Security Council (NSC), in the Defense and State Department, and within Vice President Cheney's own parallel national security office. That particular little-known organization -- not accountable to Congress and virtually unknown to the American people -- should be completely dismantled. Never in the history of our democracy has there been established such an influential and pervasive center of power with the ability to circumvent long-standing and accepted reporting structures and to skew decision-making practices. It has been described to me chillingly by a former senior government official as a coup d'etat within the state."

Now we are going to connect a few dots, my brothers and sisters, which may help to clarify what has happened to our federal government.

[H2O Man]

52. The Imperial Presidency ....

Recently an author who posts on DU wrote an incorrect definition of what an imperial presidency implies. It's not a "royal attitude" at a press conference, or other obnoxious attitudes.

"Presidential power... has been nurtured above all by war. The Founding Fathers, whern they wrote the Constitution, intended to place the decision to go to war in Congress; but thereafter America's quest for world leadership gradually undermined the original arrangement, overwhelmed the original separation of powers and transfered authority to the Presidency. In recent years the imperial Presidency, having established itself in foreign affairs, has made a bold bid for supremecy at homer. Through a diversity of means -- through the mystique of the mandate, through the secrecy system, through executive privilege and impoundment, through political and electronic surveillance in the name of national security, through the use of the White House itself as a base for espionage and sabatoge against political opposition -- the imperial Presidency threatened to become the revolutionary Presidency." -- Arthur Schlesinger, Jr

[H2O Man]

53. The Betrayal of America

by Vince Bugliosi tells how the Supreme Court undermined the US Constitution in their picking Bush for president in 2000, although Bush clearly lost the election. In the foreward by Molly Ivans, she writes: "I am not a lawyer, but I do know that when Bugliosi quotesa Yale law professor as saying the day of the Bush v Gore decision was 'like the day of the Kennedy assassination' for him and many colleagues, this is not an exaggeration. ...As Bugliosi says, it was a 'judicial coup d'etat.'" (pages 6 &7)

[H2O Man]

54. Losing America by Senator Robert Byrd

"Only hours after the September 11 attacks, the administration installed a "shadow government" of about a hundred senior executive branch officials to live and work secretly outside Washington ....(it) is immune from giving testimony to Congress (have we heard this before?) .... the Congress has not sanctioned the shadow government, nor were members of Congress even made aware of its existence until the story was leaked in March 2002 .... The shadow government is presumed to continue its operation outside of Congressional oversight." (pages 78-9)

[H2O Man]

55. Now, back to the Cheney- Plame connection ....

"From a respected reporter close to the subsequent inquiry into the later disclosure of Valerie's status, I learned that a meeting ... led to the decision to produce a 'workup' on me for the Office of the Vice President. It was not made clear to me whether Dick Cheney himself attended this meeting, although I was told that senior members of his staff and quite possibly other senior Republicans, including former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich, were present and that Gingrich actively participated in a strategy session, the object of which was to figure out how to discredit me." (pages 326-7)

Newt? Why, is our country being run by unelected people who have been given the boot by the people?

[H2O Man]

57. Who runs America?

"...I am told by a source close to the House Judiciary Committee that the Office of the Vice President -- either the vice president himself or, more likely, his chief of staff, Lewis ("Scooter") Libby -- chaired a meeting at which a decision was made to do a 'workup' on me .... The immediate effect of the workup, I am told by a member of the press, citing White House sources, was a long harangue against the two of us within the White House walls. Over a period of several months, Libby evidently seized opportunities to rail openly against me as an 'asshole playboy' who went on a boondoggle 'arranged by his CIA wife' -- and was a Democratic Gore supporter to boot." (pages 441-2)

Scooter is, of course, Dick Cheney's top aide.

[TacticalPeek]

44. A couple of things I try to remember.

The previous (sadly) record-holder in the "worst President ever" contest, Richard M. Nixon, actually authorized the fire-bombing of the Brookings Institute.

And it may be apocryphal, or a joke, or maybe true, that Kruschev was denouncing Stalin's reign of terror to a large group when someone in the back asked "What were you doing during Stalin's reign?". Kruschev stepped forward, looked around and shouted out "Who said that?!". Everyone was silent, looked around at one another, and no one spoke up. Kruschev then said "That's what I was doing".

:)

[pauliedangerously]

32. This is good stuff.....

Kick to the top

:kick:

[tblue37]

33. Well, the reports I have read all say

that Rove has been told he is not a target of the investigation.

[H2O Man]

34. Correct.

If you have a group of people involved in a crime, and one of the people who is known to have participated in that crime testifies and is not still the target of the investigation ...... what do you think happened?

[freeminder]

35. to the top it goes

everybody here knows it.

A to your Q : the "other" testified :-)

[txindy]

43. You've got it!

I'll get on it right away. Sleep? Who needs sleep? I'll sleep after November 2nd. ;) Seriously, I'm on it.

[nostalgicaboutmyfutr]

45. bump

[Media_Lies_Daily]

46. Excellent post...let's keep it near the top.

[ladybugg33]

47. Kicking, kicking!

Getting my letters ready right now.

[TacticalPeek]

48. Call me terminally hopeful, but I've got to pass this on.

I noticed this today in some comments over at Eschaton:

On the up-side: I really do believe that there are many people in government behind the scenes who really DO know what is at stake, and are doing everything possible to bring these extremists down.

Mr. Kate and I saw Ambassador Wilson last night, and I had the opportunity to speak with him three times over the course of the evening.

He is firmly convinced that indictments will, indeed, be issued. And it sounds like he and his wife will be filing civil suits. (He joked openly about Valerie taking possession of Novak's black Corvette, some fine Halliburton annuities, and a certain ranch in Crawford.

When I asked him about *when* the indictments might come, he initially said in fine diplomatic fashion, "Who knows?," but when I countered with "I hear that prosecutors only go after after journalists at the very end," he looked me straight in the eye, smiled, and said "I think when Karl Rove is called back to the grand jury a second time, it's near the very end."

Sounds good, eh?
Kate | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 11:15 am

...

Just want to point out again what Joe Wilson said to me last night, as posted above. He seems to believe that indictments will be coming down soon.

And the way he worded it, it sounds like he thinks Rove may be getting more than a rap on the knuckles.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if it happens as our very own October surprise?

...

there is a genuine "cold" Civil War going on within the government right now. I believe there are patriots working behind the scenes.

Wilson said he is very happy with how Fitz is handling everything. I don't believe Fitzgerald would hold off for any reason other than making an airtight case.

...

If he's happy about it right now, I think it's a good sign. And if he's happily announcing to a whole ballroom full of Democrats in Arizona that he thinks Valerie will be owning the luxury goodies that are currently in the hands of traitors, that seems a very, very good sign to me. Especially since he singled out the Boy King and Darth Vader.

...

Wilson has a spine, for sure. They fucked with the wrong dude. I was tempted to ask if he felt that going after Valerie was a "two-fer" -- that she had the goods on something incriminating about the Bushies. But realized it would be a waste of time -- even if he knows about such a thing, I'm sure it would be a violation of classified info to say so.

...

Wilson's remark was pointed about Rove in its implication, even if he didn't come right out and say "Rove's cooked" in a simple declarative sentence. These diplomats!

...

By the way, for all you Joe Wilson fans:

Did you know he started out in his work life as a union carpenter?
Kate | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 12:08 pm

-------------------------

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

All the above is copyright 2004, by Kate, wherever she may be out there in the great cybersky. My apologies to Kate, hope she doesn't mind.

[txindy]

50. Reading this made my day!

Thank you for sharing it. This is very interesting. And I certainly hope it's true that Valerie Plame will one day own the pig farm in Crawford. I live too close to it to be completely comfortable considering the present owner of that land. :scared:

[Me.]

51. "Bring It On"

ALL hope, terminal or otherwise. This is great news about Joe Wilson and if anybody would know it's him.

As for Rove, let's hope he's well done. And I do agree, that there are many battles being fought behind the scenes. Those on the opposite side of the "aisle" as well as republicans.

In the article linked below the writer speaks of the battle that will begin on Nov. 3rd against Bush, if he's re-elected, and against the neos, no matter what.


Fixin' for a fight

In the GOP, the long knives are out for the neoconservatives

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/041025/usnews/25neocons.htm

[kohodog]

56. A question of timing

It seems we may well face a constitutional crisis beginning November 3 if the election is close of if dirty play is suspected. Both sides are gearing up for a fight, and the lawyers are preparing as we speak. Our Democracy is in real danger if we have a repeat of 2000 and the Court or Senate selects our President.

While I don't think indictments are likely prior to November 2 because of the Miller case, they may still come when the election is up in the air, sometime in November. It looks like Fitzgerald is near the end of his inquiries, and I'm wondering what effect indictments might have in this scenario. Will it cause them to go down, or might they become desperate and illegally maintain power?

Sorry if this seems too hypothetical, but much of what's going on in our country seems unbelievable.

[H2O Man]

58. I think it sounds real .....

I'm having trouble posting on DU today. However, there is an article listed & available through news at google for Plame that is titled something like "All the President's Men part two." Now that is exactly what we have said on this thread in the past 48 hours. People across the country are coming to the same conclusions.

That said, our job is merely to plant a seed. Kerry plowed the ground with Bush in the debates, and we have some fertile ground to plant ideas with theAmerican public. Even if we affect a few hundred voters, we can make a significant difference in some closely contested states. Trust me on this: the administration is VERY CONCERNED that the information about Rove being called to testify will take root in the press. Well, my friends, we all know that roots grow underground .... so I 'spect we know our job.

Regarding the constitutional crisis -- you are absolutely right. We're already there. Any time thousands of citizens can be disenfranchised simply because they arte black, and as such are considered to be a "high risk" to vote democrat, we are in a constitutional crisis. Any time America's sons and daughters can be sent overseas to fight in an illegal war for the benefit of the VP's business interests -- which he mistakes for America's interests -- then we are in a constitutional crisis. So, hell yes, you are exactly right! And this administration knows that if even one tenth of the information about Dick Cheney's role in the Niger document forgeries and the outing of a CIA operative were known to the general public, he would be voted out in shame and disgrace.

[Me.]

59. Here's The Link To The Article

Is a sequel to 'All the President's Men' on the way? Stay tuned

http://www.timesstar.com/Stories/0,1413,125~1511~2474129,00.html

[eleny]

60. I'd been putting off changing my printer inks forever

But your thread prompted me to finally get it done. Thanks to all for this thread and the helpful ideas. Sending a letter to at least ten outlets is what I'll be doing.

I've been reminded over and over about the Nixon administration. How he was reelected and then brought down by Watergate. Sometimes, events grind agonizingly slow but eventually come to fruition. All the more reason to hop on this right before Election Day as it's a national security issue and that's *Bush's perceived area of strength.

[RollergirlVT]

61. kicked

[Tesibria]

62. WAIT! Rove expressly NOT A TARGET of the investigation

"Rove's attorney, Robert Luskin, said prosecutors have assured Rove he is not a target of the criminal investigation."

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-leak16.html

I'm all for going after this story -- but note that Rove is NOT a target per multiple news stories. I haven't seen ANY that say that he is a target. We need to have our fact right.

Google News it.... there are dozens of stories reporting this.

[kohodog]

63. Of Course they will say that.

So let's suppose he isn't the target. 2.5 hours is a long time to testify if he knows nothing, and keep in mind he was interviewed bt Fitzgerald two other times. He's a spinless manipulator and dirty trickster extraordinaire. If he flipped he may well have spilled the beans on those above him. When it all comes out, if he cut a deal to save his ass, he'll still be ruined though he may do less or no hard time.

The rat is starting to smell.

[Me.]

64. Post #34

On this thread agrees that he is not the target. Making a deal doesn't mean you get off Scot free, it just means you'll be half baked rather than toast. Besides what else could his lawyer say at this point?

[TacticalPeek]

65. US Attorney General John Mitchell was not a target of an investigation.

Perhaps he took solace in this fact from his federal prison cell.

:evilgrin:

[shraby]

66. What do you expect his attorney to do?

That's what Rove has an attorney for..to deflect any attention from him. Actually the whole white house is full of rats as is the pentagon. I only hope they can all be put where they belong.

When the fertilizer begins to hit the oscillating blades, it's time to plop yourselves before the boob tube, make some popcorn and enjoy the show cause it's gonna be a long one as one by one they'll be implicated in screwing the nation.

One added bonus is if they can catch the salamander on something onerous at the same time.

Hi to all of you who have hung in there through all the Plame threads and especially to H20 for keeping interest alive. Let's go get 'em now.

[H2O Man]

67. A funny thing .....

In this case, which is being presented to a federal grand jury, almost no information at all has been "leaked" to the press. Each person involved has been instructed to keep all information discussed secret. That includes the attorneys involved. Now, Rove's attorney has been involved, and instructed not to discuss the case. So it's curious why he would say something in public that he claims was said during the process of the investigation.

But it could be true. When John Ashcroft recused himself, it was because someone close to him had been implicated. Now we know that John Hannah, who was from VP Cheney's office, had started singing about that time. Is it possible that he implicated Karl Rove? This would be cause for Ashcroft's recusal, as Rove had worked for Ashcroft before.

If Rove's attorney knew that Chris Matthews was willing to talk about the phone call from Rove, and that John Hannah was singing, what do you think he'd suggest? Hang tight? Or make a deal? Is there anything about Karl Rove that would suggest that he is a man who would be willing to go to jail on principle?

Yet it doesn't matter, as far as letters to newspapers. What does matter is that people in the administration wereinvolved in a criminal conspiracy, and that President Bush -- a man who vowed to bring dignity and respect to the Oval Office -- did not clean house on his own. In fact, after first saying he wanted to get to the bottom of this controversy, he would soon say he didn't think it would ever be solved. The more we compare this to the Watergate scandal, the better the public will be able to fill in the blanks. Our letters do not need to answer every question; quite to the contrary, our job is only to ask questions and raise doubts about the administration.

[nannah]

68. so if rove made a deal, would he then be no longer

implicated? is that what you are saying?

[H2O Man]

75. Yes.....

If Rove made a deal, he is not one of the targets; if Rove did not make a deal, he is absolutely a target.

[H2O Man]

78. An interesting point

related to questions about Rove: in an October 2003 press briefing, reporters asked Scott McClellan about the case. They asked about Scooter Libby, Eliot Abrams, and Karl Rove. McClellan spoke specifically about Rove: "The president knows he wasn't involved ...It's simply not true." Yet when pressed, McClellan refused to comment on Libby or Abrams.

One of the clearestlessons from Watergate is that a president who is involved in a criminal conspiracy "cover-up" -- and that is exactly what this president and administrationis doing -- will sacrifice anyone to try to protect the president himself.

In his classic book, "We Talk, You Listen," Vine DeLoria, Jr wrote (page 66) "There has never been a system yet that would not gladly sacrifice one of its own for a moment's peace, no matter how brief. If the system is to be changed, then those who would change it should pinpoint its weak spot, its blockage points, and place all the pressure on that one point until the blockage is cleared." This, of course, explains why Joseph Wilson picked Karl Rove for the wonderful "frog-marching" comment!

[DELUSIONAL]

69. kick

Although my message count is low -- I've been reading DU for a long time.

The bush administration is a study in psychopathology --

It was amazing to me how bush told so many lies during the "debates" -- it seems like the whole bunch are skilled liars.

How the hell do they manage to the truth telling mode -- when forced to tell the truth after swearing to do so with their hand on a bible? Even then are any of these creeps able to know truth from the fiction they have created.

Off to write letters --

Thanks H20 Man for keeping this alive and your insightful essays.

[loudsue]

70. My BIGGEST concern, Plamers, is a bush PARDON....

whether he wins or loses the Nov. election, if these indictments come out BEFORE January's inauguration, bush can pardon the whole s***load of these leaking bastards....the traitor in chief is STILL the pResident until January-something-or-other. He can pardon Rove, Libby, Cheney, and prolly even his own self!!! if he so desires.

He's following in Daddy-Iran-Contra's footsteps, no? Don't you think Poppy bush has been hoping junior could get these indictments out BEFORE the election, and AFTER the nationally televised debates, when Kerry still had a shot at getting some air time on our right wing media?

Whatever happens from now on is OWNED by the neocon media. If bush pardons his entire administration, the media will spin it like it was just another day at the office.

When the dictator is in bed with the media, the people sleep.

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[Me.]

71. Can Someone Be Pardoned Before They've Gone To Trial

Or been found guilty?

[loudsue]

73. Yes, Me, I'm afraid they can.....

It happened with Iran Contra, and it will happen again with junior unless the forces of Light prevail!! Even if Rove is a major SUSPECT by the time bush leaves office, he can give Rove the "Get Out of Jail Free" card. He can even do it for Cheney....anyone.

:kick::kick:

[Me.]

76. Damn!

Thanks loudsue. What's the solution H.?

And as the great propaganda machine moves forward there is an absolutely vicious articles directed at Fitzgerald in the Sun Times:

Prosecutor should skip the Plame game

"When examining the stillborn political career of Sen. Peter Fitzgerald, right after sifting through the ashes of his six years of vainglorious inaction, the honest critic had to pause and give credit to his single accomplishment: the selection of Patrick Fitzgerald as U.S. attorney in Chicago.” Cont….

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steinberg/cst-nws-stein18.html
"

[H2O Man]

77. we need to keep in mind

that there are some things that we can control; some things we can influence; and there are other things that are beyong our influence or control. Each of will, for example, either choose to write a LTTE today, or choose not to: we control our own actions. If we do write a letter, it has the potential to influence the way people think; if we don't write that letter, we give up that potential. But what other people do, from those who read our letters, to those in Washington, are in control of their actions. We are only responsible for ourselves. Thus, there is a possibility that Bush will grant pardons. It is becoming more of a probability of indictments come, but the public does not understand the case. It is less likely if the public has a firm grasp of the scandal's implications.

It's important to remember that if you want to influence the way people behave, you must first influence the way they think. Our job is not to make people's minds up for them; it's just to make them think. That requires that we present things in a new and different light than the media has thus far in the Plame case. I'll give an example: when the Plame threads started, I used the quote from Klein's TIME article. Immediately, it clicked with DU readers WHY the VP was intent on outing Valerie Plame. It changed the way people thought about the case. And hopefully it will change the way people behave -- in the sense of joining the letter-writing campaign.

[kohodog]

83. Interesting article. Don't think it will have much impact...

Are we to think that Steinberg thinks Fitzgreald is doing "Ashcroft's Dirty Work" because he is being tough with the reporters? Interesting spin, missing the real issue which was a malicious, treasonous act perpetrated by some in the highest reaches of the Administration.

So who is creating this spin? Ashcroft? Perhaps. After all he brought Fitzgerald into the case, probably not realizing how Fitzgerald would handle it. Rove, Ashcroft, Cheney et al have a lot to lose, and this is a wedge that they will use to move opinion against the case. If they can turn public opinion against the case based on free press issues they may think they can win. I don't see it working.

I will work on my letter tonight and will point out this trap. My suspicion is that there may be enough evidince without Miller's records or it wouldn't have gotten this far.

[Me.]

86. When Asscroft Recused Himself

he turned the case over to one of his deputies named James Comey, who in turn picked Fitzgerald. Since picking Fitz, Comey has been frozen out of Ass's inner circle. As for the spin, my guess is that it has been a full frontal press, a real "workup" by both the pResident's & veep's office. Otherwise Scott McCellan wouldn't be on the case.

[H2O Man]

87. It's been interesting to watch ....

how as Fitzgerald makes progress, the press is reactive. I've compared the articles "authored" by a variety of reporters from different newspapers across the country. On an almost weekly basis, when they have something "new" to report/whine about, the vast majority of articles are nearly identicle in form. The same number of paragraphs, many of the same phrases, and the same main points and conclusions.

Now we all know that wire services such as AP send structured reports on news events that most papers run, and they often add to them something of local interest. But this is different.

What it tends to look like are the old articles the FBI and other intel agencies sent out to reporters they had relationships with. The reporters would then make minor changes, and then put the article out as if they wrote it. This was one of the most highly manipulative tactics for coloring the public's perception (or misperception) of events involving, for example, Martin Luther King, Jr.

That this is in fact occuring is further evidenced by the manner in which no major newspaper has taken a lead role in investigating Plame/the Niger document forgeries/ neocon spy scandal, in the manner that occured in Watergate. The major news media sources are part of the problem; they are the enemy of progressive democrats. We are indeed, to paraphrase Mr. X, viewing world events through the looking glass, when we rely upon the media; as a result, black is white and white is black.

Hence, many newspaper articles are now distorting the grand jury investigation, and pretending the Bush administration is pressuring the press to get to the bottom of who leaked Plame's identity, rather than reporting the reality of the situation: the media is attempting to cover up the identity of those involved in a criminal conspiracy within the administration.

[kohodog]

88. H20, In an earlier thread

It was mentioned that the FBI and CIA and other agencies have plants in the Media. I have kept that in mind as I read the Plame investigation reports (and many others). Especially with the Corporate ownership of most of the Media we no longer have a 4th Estate that will hold the three branches of government to task.

Our times are very different than the 70's and Watergate. It is now up to citizens to do the digging, and ask the questions that will expose the corruption. While we may not have the access to the parties involved the internet has given us tools to do the research necessary to make enough noise to be noticed and cause a stir.

If we go about our daily struggles and say nothing , nothing will happen. But by writing pointed letters to the editor, we can begin to reframe the discussion. I truly believe that there are good reporters who have access and want to write the "scoop" story. Some may already have enough information but the corporate bosses are hesitant. If enough groundswell is generated they may take a chance. Editors and writers are still competitive and don't want to be beaten to the scoop.

Am I naive? I believe we can make a difference.

[H2O Man]

89. Yes, we are making a difference.

The LTTE section of a newspaper is still open ground for discussing important ideas. Because much of the paper contains articles that misinform, it makes the LTTE that has a different stance stick out that much more. I think that writing to the newspapers is one of the single most important actions people can take. And they get a reaction that is hard to measure, but that makes a difference when people go inside that voting booth.

[left is right]

178. seem to recall reading that a president can

pardon anyone/everyone but himself. it was during nixon's final month so I could be wrong.

[burrowowl]

72. KICK

[txindy]

74. kicking

:kick:

[Search Party]

81. KICK

i can write 20 letters a day and vow to do so?

anyone else?

thanks for all of your hard work H20!

[NewJeffCT]

85. afternoon kick

Hopefully...

[shelley806]

90. Thank you H2O man et al

I was referred to this thread from another more recent thread, and I have been curious about why Miller and not Novak. I finally finished all of the posts with this thread. I am overblown. But so relieved that all of those nagging doubts about this incidence too, (like so many other lies in this administration) are verified by others who clearly know so much more than I do. I will write LTTE's, and Im suggesting this page for front page to keep it going. I'm relatively new here, but I've learned sooooooooooo much. Keep up the good work.

[H2O Man]

92. Thank you!

I think the Plame Threads are one of the better sources of information on this case available at this time.

[TrustingDog]

91. kick

[Me.]

93. This LTTE is interesting

And while I DO NOT support his view regarding pardons, I find it interesting that he wrote that he considers both Tush & Novakula guilty. And, in a tinfoil moment, I also hoped it is genuine and not someone testing out the notion of pardons.

<<<snip>>>

While the political operative Novak goes unpunished, Ambassador Plame (Ms. Plame's husband) is threatened and punished for not supporting the "fiction" of Iraq bomb building. The Bush administration used this kind of hammer to thwart any intelligent examination of the lack of evidence of Iraq's nuclear and WMD capabilities.

Mr. Bush and Mr. Novak both face the fact that their behavior is criminal and should be punished. It would, however, be prudent that President Kerry should grant a pardon to Mr. Novak and Mr. Bush, and allow the trial lawyers to get their day in court in civil actions for the losses caused by the egregious use of the power of the presidency and press.

Our soldiers are acting honorably and courageously in protecting their country and their families. They should not be asked to sacrifice their lives and honor for the vested interests of megacorporations such as Enron, Halliburton and the hundreds of corporations and millionaires who discreetly, under the disguise of fund-raising "pioneers," raise vast sums of money to obtain influence. Democracy is being lost here in America while we occupy a foreign country because we are afraid to hear the truth.

- Craig Worth, Pocatello

http://www.journalnet.com/articles/2004/10/19/opinion/opinion02.txt

[Me.]

94. A Kick for Valerie

[Me.]

95. The Privileged Few

This is a good commentary, though he does get one thing wrong, Valerie Plame did not lobby for her husband to get the job.

<<snip>>>
"This underscores the complete and total arrogance that is far too prevalent in the journalism profession. Journalists can shield those who break the law, but then they should be prepared to accept the consequences of their actions. And I suspect their cry for special privileges won't get much sympathy from the nation's firefighters and cops."

And that's the Point.

http://www.newscentral.tv/uploads/franchise/point/point-20041018.shtml

[PissedOffPollyana]

96. I'm on it!

There are several pet projects on the burners but there is always more room for something this important. This is High Treason and MUST be kept in the public eye, especially since Novak is still allowed to act the part of "journalist" with seemingly no issue by the "people" who employ him.

I've read the dissections of Rove with interest, though I see him in a slightly different light. Rove, once a fat, probably picked on and beat up kid, has grown to be quite the control junkie megalomaniac. I see him more as the guy who eggs the not-quite-as-smart other guys to do things but never actually does any dirty deeds himself.

Without serious and concrete evidence, he will skate away on a nice, shiny veneer of plausible deniability. The best we can hope for is that the actual operators have some "insurance" that implicates him solidly when he turns on them.

After watching Iran-Contra unfold, I am hopeful but not counting on the end we'd all like. Hell, if treason were actually punished as it should be, Abrams' ass would still be rotting in jail!

[slutticus]

98. kcik

:kick:

[Me.]

99. More Neo-con Dirty Doing

“Cloak and Swagger”

<<<snip>>>>
“Since the Pollard case, U.S. intelligence and law-enforcement sources have revealed to the Prospect that at least six sealed indictments have been issued against individuals for espionage on Israel’s behalf. It’s a testament to the unique relationship between the United States and Israel that those cases were never prosecuted; according to the same sources, both governments ultimately addressed them through diplomatic and intelligence channels rather than air the dirty laundry. A number of career Justice Department and intelligence officials who have worked on Israeli counterespionage told the Prospect of long-standing frustration among investigators and prosecutors who feel that cases that could have been made successfully against Israeli spies were never brought to trial, or that the investigations were shut down prematurely. This history had led to informed speculation that the FBI -- fearing the Franklin probe was heading toward the same silent end -- leaked the story to CBS to keep it in the public eye and give it a fighting chance.

But the pro-Israel lobby and some neoconservatives, fighting for their political lives, have turned the leak on its head. They claim that the AIPAC and Franklin investigations have nothing to do with the substance of the Iran-related leaks. Rather, they say, investigators are going after Jews. In the current probes of Franklin and AIPAC, Michael Rubin has led the strident charge. On September 4, during the media flap over the investigations, Rubin sent an e-mail memo -- obtained by the Prospect -- to a list of friendly parties targeting two of Washington’s more respected mainstream journalists, calling them key players in an “increasing anti-Semitic witch hunt.” The memo fingered Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage as one likely source of the leaks about the investigation, and also urged that, if the accusations had any merit, the White House demand the evidence be made public. “I’m increasingly concerned about the leaks spinning off from the Franklin affair,” Rubin wrote. “It was bad enough when the White House rewarded the June 15, 2003, leak by canceling consideration of the NSPD. It showed the State Department that leaks could supplant real debate. … Bureaucratic rivalries are out of control.” Rubin’s memo showed up in a similar form almost a month later in the op-ed pages of The Washington Times under the byline of National Review staffer Joel Mowbray, and echoes of it can be seen in the pages of the neocon-friendly Jerusalem Post.

Meanwhile, Franklin was involved in some pushback of his own. In late August, the Franklin case was referred from Szady to U.S. Attorney Paul J. McNulty, a Bush-Ashcroft appointee who heads the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia. A grand jury was seated on the case in September and had subpoenaed at least some witnesses to testify about Franklin. Then, on October 1, The New York Sun reported that Franklin had fired his court-appointed attorney (whom he had presumably retained for financial reasons), halting grand-jury proceedings while he found new counsel. On October 6, the Los Angeles Times reported that Franklin had stopped cooperating with the FBI entirely. He had hired a high-profile lawyer, Plato Cacheris (of Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen fame), and had rejected a proposed plea agreement whose terms Franklin considers “too onerous,” according to the Los Angeles Times.

Who pushed Franklin -- who for months seemed vulnerable -- to stop cooperating? And who is paying for his expensive new lawyer? At this writing, we do not know. Also unknown is the status of the larger FBI counterintelligence probe of alleged Israeli espionage into which Franklin stumbled. But we do know that his recent decisions would seem to immensely help any of the people against whom he could have testified. At least for now, that’s a round won by a clique intent on pushing freelance crypto-diplomacy to its limits.”

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=8764

[H2O Man]

100. Through the looking glass ...

... where black is white, and white is black.

[Me.]

101. A Kick For Joe

[Me.]

102. David Corn Reveals The Truth, Again

In this article by David Corn, (remember him?) re recovers the Plame case, the awarding of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson with the first annual Ron Ridenhour Award for Truth-Telling and a GOP response to the award the opens with “You've been snookered and you shouldn't stand for it! “


House GOPers Assail Nation Institute

This is part of the response:

<<<snip>>>
“In your letter, you refer to the "importance of accuracy and fairness in political discourse." To that, we say amen. We applaud Ambassador Wilson's truthful contribution to the national discourse. And we have a modest suggestion for you. Rather than obsess over the Wilson episode--and we note you say nothing in your letter about the Bush Administration leak that outed his wife as a CIA officer, ruining her career and possibly harming national security--perhaps you ought to ponder the larger issues presented by the Senate Intelligence Committee's report.

Two days before the Iraq war, George W. Bush justified the invasion of Iraq by saying "intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal" weapons of mass destruction. Later on, he claimed his decision to attack Iraq had been predicated upon "good, solid intelligence." The report--which you might have seen covered in the media--concluded that the intelligence community's critical findings on Iraq's WMDs were "either overstated, or were not supported by, the underlying intelligence reporting." In other words, President Bush presented a false picture to the American public. Furthermore, the Senate report said, "The Central Intelligence Agency reasonably assessed that there were likely several instances of contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda throughout the 1990s, but that these contacts did not add up to an established formal relationship." This means that when President Bush said before the war that Saddam Hussein was "a threat because he's dealing with Al Qaeda," he was not basing this significant assertion on the findings of the US intelligence community. The report also indicated that President Bush ignored the intelligence when he called Saddam Hussein "an ally" of Al Qaeda during his May 1, 2003, speech aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln.

In your capacity as public officials devoted to truth in public discourse, we encourage you to pressure the House leadership to investigate whether the Bush White House accurately represented the intelligence on WMDs and the supposed connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. As you might know, the Republican chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee has postponed such an inquiry until after the election. Given that more than 1,000 Americans have been killed in a war that was (according to the Senate report you passionately cite) sold to the public with bad information, you have a profound constitutional duty to rise above partisan inhibitions and unite in a call for a complete and truthful accounting.

Please join us in requesting an immediate Congressional investigation into how the Bush Administration handled and depicted the intelligence it received before the war. We look forward to your response.

Sincerely,

Hamilton Fish, President of The Nation Institute, and Randy Fertel, President of the Fertel Foundation”

http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=1922

[Me.]

104. The Article by David Corn

linked in post #102 gives a lot of good background on Plame. The significance of David Corn is, that it was an article written by him about Robert Novakuka betraying and blowing Valerie Plame's cover, that sent the WH, most specifically Karl Rove into a tailspin. Corn wrote in The Nation, that those who revealed Valerie Plame's identity were guilty of of committing a crime, under federal statues. In fact the first President, in that reprehensible family, at one time said, that such an act was treasonous. Upon hearing that he and the vp's gang of miscreants may have in fact committed such a crime sent K. Rove ballistic. It would lead to a schism between the veep's and rez's office and begin the cover-up and stonewalling that Patrick "Bulldog" Fitzgerald, the federal prosecutor in the case, has been trying to undo and get to the bottom of.

[Ladyhawk]

103. Kicking this...

I get the gist of the Plame story, but it would be nice if someone could make a short-list of salient points that could be used in LTTEs...for those of us who are Plame-challenged. ;) Or should the Plame-challenged stay out of this?

(BTW, it was a copperhead, but I defer to your greater knowledge of the Plame case. ;) )

[H2O Man]

105. Every post I see

with you taking part, I want to write: "Bush is a milksnake!" (grin) I was not aware of where the original poster was from. It was funny, and I showed my 10-year old daughter, because last spring she was doing a school report on snakes. She had about the same picture the other person posted for an "eastern" milk snake. I insisted it was not a milk snake, because the ones around here do look almost exactly like the original poster's original picture. Of course, my daughter proved me wrong, and it is still a great source of pride for her. (In her teen years, she will find out I'm often wrong.)

Robert Novak is a snake. Cheney, too. I suspect you will agree.

[calimary]

106. Kick! This is IMPORTANT, guys!

This goes to the heart of the question - who can keep us safer? Who's made us LESS safe?

[Me.]

107. A Kick For The Bulldog

[NewJeffCT]

108. another kick

Fired off about 15 LTTEs on Monday regarding Rove's testimony... only form responses so far.

[Me.]

109. That's Fabulous n/t

[Me.]

110. A Kick For H.

[Me.]

111. What Does Everyone Think Of Pavitt

coming out in the open the way he has recently?

[sangh0]

112. kick

for an important issue

[Me.]

113. Hanging By A Thread Kick

[sangh0]

114. kick

for a new day

[Me.]

115. Neo-Con Delight

More on the October Surprise by Wayne Madsen:

A Bush pre-election strike on Iran 'imminent'

White House insider report "October Surprise" imminent.

<<<snip>>>
"White House sources also claimed they are "terrified" that Bush wants to start a dangerous war with Iran prior to the election and fear that such a move will trigger dire consequences for the entire world".

http://www.lebanonwire.com/0410/04102002LW.asp

[H2O Man]

116. This topic has been mentioned

on a few other threads. I have participated in the conversations on those, too, and am a bit surprised that some DUers are not aware that this is closely related to Plame/Niger document forgeries/ neocon spy scandal. I've suggested that people re-read some earlier Plame threads for background.

I think that the chances of an attack on Iran may be lessening before the election. However, if there is a tense battle over the election results, I would not be surprised to see an action in Iran in December. Certainly, we are all better off if Kerry gets in office, and can deal with the rise in Middle East tensions in a regional approach that moves beyond Halliburton's interests.

[AntiFascist]

117. There may be another factor also....

Years ago I was reading how, if the dollar fell low enough, that increasing pessimism about the U.S. could push it over the edge of a cliff, together with rising oil prices. I wonder if the White House may feel that starting a war in Iran might be necessary to shock the world back into supporting the dollar, or at least distract Americans from the economy, or provide yet another excuse for what's happening to the economy?

[H2O Man]

121. That's an interesting thought.

I know that a war economy has been enhanced by warfare numerous times in the past seventy years. It's impact upon the dollar in the global economy is open to debate. Certainly, while the war in Iraq has created suffering for a large portion of our population, and hardships on another large segment, it has lined the pockets and inflated the accounts of a small group. The Bush-Cheney folks do not seem intent on raising the standard of living for the middle class in America, and they surely do not care for the poor. I think that they are creating a new form of high-tech feudalism, much in the manner of Europe in the 13th century. I'm becoming convinced that the best alternative (which can only start if Kerry takes office) will be to re-examine some of the ideas expressed/implied by the Articles of Confederation ..... though I do not mean to imply changing the US Constitution by even a single phrase, so much as fulfilling some of it's promise. That might be possible only in the context of common interests in the tribal sense, as outlined in Vine Deloria's "We Talk, You Listen." Not in simple terms of territory, but rather in terms of group rights. For example, on religious issues, a large number of people with widely differing views need to unite for a common protection against the aggressive "christianity" of the far-right republicans. Or as Robert Kennedy, Jr points out in "Crimes Against Nature," the children of this country have the right to a much safer environment than we are creating for them. Issues such as health insurance and medical care should be uniting people, rather than creating the divisions that make the Bush revolution possible. (Clearly I am rambling on a tangent. Sorry. As election day approaches, I find myself wondering "where do we go from here," to parasphrase Martin.)

[Me.]

118. Wasn't There Something Also

in one of the thousands of Plame posts, that this attack was originally planned for Nov. 3 by the Israelis, who were then going on the assumption that Tush would win and they would be able to act with impunity?

[H2O Man]

122. There may have been.

It sounds familiar. The general idea of expanding Israel is detailed in Michael Schever's book, Imperial Hubris. (He is not advocating it, merely quoting numerous sources, and connecting this with the concerns that Muslims in the area share.) And the neocon spy scandal was certainly very closely related to this.

[Pobeka]

128. More ominous, (to me). Lure Iran into launching the first strike.

If Bush starts the attack, it may very well backfire, less than half the population trusts him now, and they could well kick his ass out of office before he could do more damage given what an obvious fiasco Iraq is now.

If, however, Iran attacks the USA first, then Bush gets the sympathy/leader/warrior vote.

[H2O Man]

129. good point.

I think that if Israel made air strikes, and violence increased, the US would intervene.

[Me.]

131. Another Possibility

Is that Israel, with our neo-con urging, and weapons, will strike first and then we will "have to go in and help our allies". A sort of back door strategy where we put the plan in play but have Israel serve it up.

[seemslikeadream]

119. Ex-ambassador turned whistle-blower says Bush administration has failed

Saturday, October 23, 2004
Amanda Garrett
Plain Dealer Reporter

National security adviser Condoleezza Rice stood before the Cleveland City Club last week and insisted that President Bush was right to invade Iraq and that a broad war against terror was the only way to protect the nation.

On Friday, former ambassador Joseph Wilson IV told the City Club the opposite. He argued that the United States is less safe today, after invading Iraq, than it was when terrorists rammed planes into our buildings three years ago.


Within days, Wilson said, the White House retaliated by telling a reporter that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, was a CIA agent.

Revealing an undercover operative's identity is a crime, and a federal grand jury is investigating. Last week, Bush's top political adviser, Karl Rove, spent more than two hours testifying before the panel.

Wilson said Friday that the revelation not only scared his family, but its underlying message also should scare the nation.

Democracy, he said, is based on citizens holding their government accountable, asking questions and demanding the truth.

The Bush administration, he said, won't abide that. It will use "every weapon in its political arsenal" to stifle those who contradict it, Wilson said.

"Be afraid," he said. "Be very afraid."
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1098524365184170.xml

[H2O Man]

123. Good article.

This is a contest between the truth, as told by people like Wilson, and the lies of this administration, as told by people like Rice. I find her behavior particularly troubling, because I am convinced that unlike Bush, she is aware of the truth.

[seemslikeadream]

120. Reporters backed in source battle

Randall Samborn, Fitzgerald's spokesman, said the prosecutor had no comment until he filed a response with the court. A hearing is set for Dec. 8.

http://www.nydailynews.com/business/story/245135p-210012c.html

[H2O Man]

124. I've noted that some of the press

is frustrated that Fitzgerald refuses to try the case in the media. It's a sorry state when people confuse the panel discussions on Fox News with serious legal reporting. It's even worse when they confuse it with the justice system. Grand jury proceedings are supposed to be secretive for good reason.

[kohodog]

125. Reporters want to protect their sources.

And slso the corporate media has a stake in this. There is little room fot true investigative journalism in this climate, and some journalists have been bought out if they weren't already operatives.

Early in the Plame threads we focused on the question "Why?" when related info came to light.

That simple question resonates today.

Why are reporters refusing to shed light on a crime that they may have knowledge of?

Why is the major media ignoring the subject?

Why is it taking so long for Fitzgerald to come to a conclusion? Is he stonewalling until after the election or is he just taking his time to build an ironclad case?

For a long time I thought it would be fine if indictments came after the election, but suddenly I worry that if Bush is re-elected the Plame investigation will be subverted snd ultimately come to a quiet death.

That thought makes me realize how important it is for us to write our LTTE's and keep the issue in focus.

[Me.]

126. Those are excellent questions

As for the reporters, the answer may be different for each one. We know Miller has a vested interest in keeping her neo-con buddies safe and by helping to secure their success. Rove & Novakula are bosom buddies and have been for years. What about Cooper, what's his angle?

That Joe Wilson! He has been waiting so long but it hasn't stopped him from fighting with both barrels drawn. What a guy.

As for what comes next, I guess the election will be the deciding factor of what path needs to be trod.

[H2O Man]

127. Yes, these are good questions.

Some answers might include: {1} Many in the media are concerned about the issue of being forced to reveal the identity of sources of information. Yet the Plame grand jury does not change the law as it has stood for decades. The reporters who are writing about the need to protect whistle-blowers are either unfamiliar with what the case involves, or are familiar and have an interest in looking to distract and distort the case. {2} Fitzgerald was originally brought in after an administration source was quoted as saying they had "moved the earthmovers on this." The VP's office had done everything they could to bury the story. Thus, Fitzgerald has had to investigate the leak to Novak; that includes investigating the March 8 meeting in Cheney's office, and the actions of a number of individuals between then and the July "outing" of Plame; it also involves the criminal conspiracy to cover-up the crime. The judge had given Fitzgerald an extension in July to allow him to investigate the expanded criminal actions. {3} One of the reasons that this administration is desperate to win the election is because of their concerns about this case. Certainly if Bush remains in office, the administration will do everything in its power to nullify Fitzgerald's work.

[Me.]

130. "Urgency of leak investigation debatable"

This is a “come on already” piece.

<<<snip>>>
“No one has suggested publicly that Fitzgerald, a career Justice Department lawyer whom Comey has likened to "Elliot Ness with a Harvard law degree," is delaying any indictments until after Nov. 2 to avoid hurting President Bush's re-election prospects.

Still, the prosecutor's investigation into how the name of CIA operative Valerie Plame made its way into a Novak column on July 14, 2003, and whether any laws were broken in the process, illustrates some of the problems facing prosecutors in deciding whether — and when — to bring politically sensitive cases.


Prosecutors are not supposed to let politics, including elections, affect timing or the decision to bring cases. Yet there appears to be an unwritten rule that charges with possible political fallout should not be filed on the eve of an election because the motivation would be suspect.

Fitzgerald still could pull an October surprise. Some former prosecutors, who have conducted similar national-security investigations and who did not want to be identified, think it is likely that Fitzgerald by now knows who leaked the information to Novak, and is mulling whether a crime was committed.” Cont..

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002071314_leak24.html

[Me.]

132. Undercover Kick

[Me.]

133. A Kick for Kerry

[slutticus]

134. kick

[Me.]

135. Another Reason Why * Has To Go

A Bush second term could find Rumsfeld, Ashcroft missing

<<<snip>>>
"Public talk about the second-term lineup is verboten around the White House, since officials realize it would look presumptuous with the race so close. But Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr. and senior adviser Karl Rove have a mental list of likely switches, according to colleagues, and people close to the White House are chattering about the possibilities.
Many speculate that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld would depart if Bush wins, though perhaps after he remained a while longer in hopes of seeing improved conditions in Iraq. Rumsfeld's likely replacement? Condoleezza Rice, the President's national security adviser, who would be the first female Pentagon chief.
According to Republicans, the most logical successors to Rice would be Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul D. Wolfowitz, an architect of the Iraq war who might be chosen if Bush were feeling vindicated; I. Lewis Libby, chief of staff for Vice President Cheney; or Rice's current deputy, Steven J. Hadley." cont.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/10008221.htm?1c

[Me.]

136. Kick for Justice

[TacticalPeek]

137. An echo in the tangled web . . .

I was reading this Editor and Publisher coverage of today's Miami Herald editorial crying crocodile tears for Judith 'Ms Chalabi' Miller, etc., and noticed a reference to the "Inter American Press Association" which was cited in support.


The editorial notes that the Inter American Press Association -- which ends its 60th annual meeting in Antigua, Guatemala, today -- has called the Plame investigation "a serious risk to freedom of the press in the United States."

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/departments/newsroom/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000684699



Something about that name, IAPA, and that place, Guatemala, started some tiny bells to tintinnabulating in the foggy recesses of my noggin, and after some googling around: voila! the IAPA was once (at least) funded by the CIA! So for any youngish DUers and others, who never had the experience I once had in the seventies, of waking up of a morn to find that your employer was (surprise!) funded by the CIA, I refer you to this interesting link with information about these matters, including the origin of the term "Mighty Wurlitzer".



OSS veteran Frank Wisner ran most of the early peacetime covert operations as head of the Office of Policy Coordination. Although funded by the CIA, OPC wasn't integrated into the CIA's Directorate of Plans until 1952, under OSS veteran Allen Dulles. Both Wisner and Dulles were enthusiastic about covert operations. By mid-1953 the department was operating with 7,200 personnel and 74 percent of the CIA's total budget.

Wisner created the first "information superhighway." But this was the age of vacuum tubes, not computers, so he called it his "Mighty Wurlitzer." The CIA's global network funded the Italian elections in 1948, sent paramilitary teams into Albania, trained Nationalist Chinese on Taiwan, and pumped money into the Congress for Cultural Freedom, the National Student Association, and the Center for International Studies at MIT. Key leaders and labor unions in western Europe received subsidies, and Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty were launched. The Wurlitzer, an organ designed for film productions, could imitate sounds such as rain, thunder, or an auto horn. Wisner and Dulles were at the keyboard, directing history.

...

The final months of 1977 produced three significant pieces of journalism on the CIA and the media, just before the issue was abandoned altogether. The first, by Joe Trento and Dave Roman, reported the connections between Copley Press and the CIA. Owner James S. Copley cooperated with the CIA for three decades. A subsidiary, Copley News Service, was used as a CIA front in Latin America, while reporters at the Copley-owned San Diego Union and Evening News were instructed to spy on antiwar protesters for the FBI. No less than 23 news service employees were simultaneously working for the CIA. James Copley, who died in 1973, was also a leading figure behind the CIA-funded Inter-American Press Association.<13>

The next article was by Carl Bernstein of Watergate fame. In a long piece in Rolling Stone, he came up with the figure of 400 American journalists over the past 25 years, based primarily on interviews with Church committee staffers. This figure included stringers and freelancers who had an understanding that they were expected to help the CIA, as well as a small number of full-time CIA employees using journalism as a cover. It did not include foreigners, nor did it include numerous Americans who traded favors with the CIA in the normal give-and-take between a journalist and his sources. In addition to some of the names already mentioned above, Bernstein supplied details on Stewart and Joseph Alsop, Henry Luce, Barry Bingham Sr. of the Louisville Courier-Journal, Hal Hendrix of the Miami News, columnist C.L. Sulzberger, Richard Salant of CBS, and Philip Graham and John Hayes of the Washington Post.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8425/CIAPRESS.HTM

---------------


Why, Porter Goss! Fancy meeting you here! Having fun are you?

:evilgrin:

[H2O Man]

138. Great post!

I think DU is at its best when people are able to take a news item and put it in the proper context, so that everyone who reads it can understand exactly what the implications are. The difficulty that Fitzgerald faces in investigating this case becomes clearer to those who question it, when we realize that the administration has appointed a person to director specifically to derail the investigation.

[Me.]

139. Agreed...

But this tact was happening even before Porter Goss became head henchman, so who was leading it before? And, what I can't understand is, why hasn't there been a pushback, at least equal in size to the hatchet job that's being done.from those inside who don't like when one of their own is betrayed? And where is Rockerfeller on this?

[Me.]

141. DU's William Pitt

Promises to Keep
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective

<<<snip>>>

"In January of 2003, during the same State of the Union speech in which he spoke of that "day of horror" and described Iraq's weapons by the numbers, Bush used the debunked Niger uranium claim as further evidence that the invasion of Iraq was an absolute imperative. Wilson, in July of 2003, exploded the administration's Niger-uranium claim in a detailed editorial in the New York Times. Days later, his wife Valerie Plame was exposed to several reporters as a deep-cover agent by operatives for the White House. Plame's operations against those who would give weapons of mass destruction to terrorists were wrecked. Her intelligence network was destroyed. The front company she worked out of, Brewster Jennings & Associates, was likewise exposed, a fact that had the corollary effect of ruining the operations and networks of any other agents working under the cover of that office.
The White House agents who blew Plame's cover did so for one reason, and one reason alone: To intimidate and silence any government analysts or whistleblowers who might go to the press and contradict the Bush administration's carefully crafted story line about the threat posed by Iraq. A number of people had come forward before Wilson wrote his article, but few came after Plame was attacked. It is one thing to put yourself at risk by taking on the Bush administration, but it is another thing entirely to be shown that the decision to do so puts your family in the line of fire.
Beyond the fact that our capacity to track and interdict the transfer of weapons of mass destruction to terrorists was damaged by the outing of Valerie Plame - and isn't that the reason we went to war in Iraq in the first place? - there is the damage done to our overall capacity to watch a world filled with threats. The Bush administration ignored the data and warnings coming from the American intelligence community before the war, because that data did not fit the decision for war which had already been made, and then scapegoated the intelligence community after their story line did not match reality. The attack upon Valerie Plame is but one example of the administration's dangerous misuse and abuse of our intelligence services. Today, the CIA is at war with the White House because of this. In no way does this deplorable situation heighten our security here at home." cont...
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/102704A.shtml

[H2O Man]

142. Okay, here goes:

<1> Goss is clearly part of a system. He was brought in to set a specific tone in CI. But certainly others in ranking positions have been working with the same goals as Goss brings. The hope is that Kerry can fire Goss, and put someone with a progressive approach in, which would be similar to a large % of the agency who are patriotic, and do not have the neocon agenda.

<2> Rockefeller is a senator; legislators are not supposed to take stances on any legal case in process, such as the Plame grand jury. But it is safe to say he wants Kerry elected, so that the Goss-types can be removed.

[Me.]

145. Thanks

As to Rokerfeller, I was wondering if in his position on the Intelligence committee he couldn't have some effect, or are all dems at this point putmanned?

[H2O Man]

146. The Congress has the authority

and for that matter the constitutional responsibility, to investigate this type of thing. They would need to be a more honorable group than they appear at this point.

[Me.]

147. Amen To That Brother! n/t

[mmonk]

140. So

if bush wins the election, will this go any further?

[H2O Man]

143. Interesting question.

I'm sure that Bush can not win the election. But I expect the republicans to attempt to steal it. If they were able to, it would certainly seem that they do not intent to respect the law of the land.

[kohodog]

144. regardless, this issue may still have legs

If the CIA is at war with the white house we may still see movement even with a Bush win (god help us). Goss may not be able to put a cap on this if there are enough brave individuals willing to speak up.

If the Republicasns win we will see a more obvious erosion of our civil rights and, if possible, greater disdain for International law. The cop brgun in 2000 will be complete in 2004.


vote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FuzzyMath]

148. disagree

this story is going nowhere

[Media_Lies_Daily]

149. Oh, the story will go pretty far once Kerry is in the White House....

...the CIA rank-and-file are screaming for blood, and they'll get it, one way or the other.

[Me.]

150. Says Who?

That conclusion seems fuzzy to me.

[Me.]

151. Can This Happen Here?

You Betcha...the following is the neo-con-rapturite dream.

Israel's Coming Civil War
by Uri Avnery

<<<snip>>>
“The process was led by religious cranks. Their declared aim, as they said then and never tire of repeating, is to drive all the Arabs out of the country that God promised us. And the land God promised us, as one of them reminded us on TV the other day, is not the "Palestine" of the British mandate, but the Promised Land – including Jordan, Lebanon, and parts of Syria and Sinai. Quoting the Bible, another one declared that we have come to this country not only to inherit, but also to disinherit the others, to drive them out and take their place.”

"But this disdain for the settlers is no less dangerous than the disdain for the Arabs. What had been hidden all the time is now becoming clear: the settlers don't give a damn for democracy and the institutions of the state. Their hard core spells it out: when the resolutions of the Knesset contradict the Halakha (Jewish religious law), the Halakha has priority. After all, the Knesset is just a gang of corrupt politicians. And what value have the secular laws, copied from the Goyim (Gentiles), compared to the word of God, blessed be his name?" cont…

<<<snip>>>
The religious-rightist rebels are powerfully motivated. Many of them believe in the Kabbala – not Madonna's fashionable Kabbala, but the real one, which says that today's secular Jews are really Amalekites who succeeded in infiltrating the People of Israel at the time of the exodus from Egypt. God Himself has commanded, as everyone knows, the eradication of Amalek from the face of the earth. Can there be a more perfect ideological basis for civil war?


<<<snip>>>
The conquest of the army from the inside began long ago. The "arrangement" with the yeshivot (religious schools) that serve in the army as separate units has allowed the entry of a huge Trojan horse. In any confrontation between their rabbis and their army commanders, the soldiers of the "arrangement yeshivot" will obey the rabbis. Worse: for years now, the settlers have systematically penetrated the ranks of the officers' corps, where they now constitute an even more dangerous Trojan horse. Cont…

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/avnery.php?articleid=3855

[H2O Man]

152. Brother Fuzzy!

Been waiting for ya!

Do you think it's a serious crime to expose a CIA operative?

[kohodog]

153. we used to see shadows.

Now they strut about in the daylight. Lots more of them at du lately.

[bushwakker]

154. kick

[coeur_de_lion]

155. kick

[Me.]

157. I Second That Kick

[Me.]

158. Not Losing Faith Kick

[Me.]

160. What's The First We Do On Nov. 3rd.?

Deluge President Kerry with "Get Rid of Goss" messages?

[H2O Man]

162. Yes

That will be the first thing.

[sam sarrha]

156. why do i think Carl will not go to the Cupcake.?? he will get his Punk ass

Pimped out in Leavenworth. his next resume will be "PRISON BITCH" :nopity:

[kohodog]

159. Did anyone hear Joe Wilson on Air America this morning?

My signal cut out just as he was asked about the status of his wife's case. Just curious on his take.

[Me.]

161. Kick

[NewJeffCT]

165. basically said he was happy with the progress

Unfortunately, my signal in Hartford is not good - getting it from WLIB in NYC.

Wilson also thought Fitzgerald is very good & very thorough.

[bear425]

163. thank you and... kick

[Me.]

164. Kick For A Landslide

[Rhiannon12866]

166. Nothing's been done about this matter for far too long!

Great post! :kick:

[NewJeffCT]

167. questions on possible indictments

Would it be better in the long run if the indictments do not come down until after Kerry is inaugerated? I have a feeling if anybody is indicted in November or December, Bush will just pardon them. If the indictments happen after that, we'll at least hopefuly get a full airing out of all the BS without having to worry about Rove or Abrams or Libby getting pardoned.

[H2O Man]

168. That is an important point.

At this point, the republicans realize Bush has lost the election, so long as the voter turn-out remains high. Different segments of their party will look to transition in the manner that is most to their advantage. For the neocons, it is safe to say that they are going to try to do extensive damage control. This wouls surely include blanket pardons. It is unfortunately very likely that Bush will do this, pretending that he wants to hand over a clean slate to President Kerry.

You can also count on a huge amount of destruction of records to be occuring. The old fashioned paper-shredding is replaced with the destruction of computer files, for the same intention.

Yet Kerry must realize that the neocon want to become entrenched within the bowels of the system like some long-dormant virus. They will suspend activity temporarily, with the potential to be reactivated at any opportune time. This is exactly what they have done in the Watergate and the Iran-Contra eras. It is important that the democratic left demand that President Kerry prosecute them to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

[Me.]

169. But How Can They Be Prosecuted

if * hands them get out of jail free passes? Also, I'm wondering if handing out pardons like that wouldn't be suicide for the Pug party, in essence saying, yes we're criminals, but once again like with Iran Contra, we're going to get off Scot free? After all, we are talking treason here. As the left is so angry about this couldn't they make a real issue out of this? Also, could the war within the Pug party, that is reputedly supposed to begin on Nov. 3rd. play a role in seeing the neos are brought to justice? And one more thing. we know * doesn't care about anybody but himself, and he may be so ticked that they all lost the election for him that he won't do anything to help them out.

Am looking for anything in the "fine print" that could still bring us justice on these issues.

[H2O Man]

170. Anyone Bush pardons

gets off. This may happen. It's always important to remember that everyone is responsible for their own actions. We can do what we can do. Kerry will be responsible for his actions. And the same with Bush and his crew. If Bush grants pardons, it is indeed on him. And as you point out, there will still be consequences, though they will not be what he expects. The moral arch of this universe we inhabit is long, but it is sure.

[NewJeffCT]

172. as a follow-up

When Bush 1 pardoned all those Iran-Contra indictees to save his own ass, they were already indicted, if I'm not mistaken. Nixon, when he resigned, had already gone through the full-blown scandal with congressional hearings & all. Ford pardoned him after all that. Iran-Contra had the hearings & all as well and then came the pardons.

Plamegate, so far, has not reached nearly that level of public knowledge & discourse. So far, the only recent mentions of it in the mainstream media has been indignant reporting on requiring Judy Miller & the like to reveal their sources. Not much on the case itself.

Would there be precedent for a blanket pardon in this case?

And, is there any recourse if Bush pardons all those people? I remember Republicans being up in arms over the Marc Rich pardon and doing some sort of investigation. And, the investigation very quietly came back as nothing illicit had happened.

[H2O Man]

173. There is somewhat

of a precedent in Bush 1's wording of the Iran-Contra pardons. I do not have it in front of me, so this is not intended as an exact quote, but his wording included " .....and for any other crimes that he might be ...."

Once a pardon is granted, it is there to stay. The republican outrage over the Clinton pardons was primarily an avenue to keep focus on Clinton, to discredit the democrats.

Bush could pardon the people who exposed Plame and it would certainly discredit him. I'm sure he would try the "for the good of the country, we need to put this behind us" routine. But he'll still have made life-long enemies in the IC.

What is perhaps more interesting is to consider if he might pardon those who have participated in the very illegal "cover-up" of the Plame case.

[coeur_de_lion]

171. COUP D'ETAT: The Real Reason Tenet and Pavitt Resigned from the CIA

Found this on another DU thread, thought it would be good to reprint here -- it is a few months old but it's a goodie.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/cgi-bin/MasterPFP.cgi?doc=http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/060804_coup_detat.html
<<snip>>

Bush, Cheney Indictments in Plame Case Looming

by
Michael C. Ruppert

additional reporting by
Wayne Madsen from Washington

© Copyright 2004, From The Wilderness Publications, www.fromthewilderness.com. All Rights Reserved. May be reprinted, distributed or posted on an Internet web site for non-profit purposes only.

JUNE 8, 2004 1600 PDT (FTW) - Why did DCI George Tenet suddenly resign on June 3rd, only to be followed a day later by James Pavitt, the CIA's Deputy Director of Operations (DDO)? The real reasons, contrary to the saturation spin being put out by major news outlets, have nothing to do with Tenet's role as taking the fall for alleged 9/11 and Iraqi intelligence "failures" before the upcoming presidential election.

Both resignations, perhaps soon to be followed by resignations from Colin Powell and his deputy Richard Armitage, are about the imminent and extremely messy demise of George W. Bush and his Neocon administration in a coup d'etat being executed by the Central Intelligence Agency. The coup, in the planning for at least two years, has apparently become an urgent priority as a number of deepening crises threaten a global meltdown.

Based upon recent developments, it appears that long-standing plans and preparations leading to indictments and impeachment of Bush, Cheney and even some senior cabinet members have been accelerated, possibly with the intent of removing or replacing the entire Bush regime prior to the Republican National Convention this August.

FTW has been documenting this Watergate-like coup for more than fifteen months and almost everything we will discuss about recent events was predicted by us in the following pages: Please see our stories "The Perfect Storm - Part I" (March 2003); "Blood in the Water" (July 2003); "Beyond Bush - Part I" (July 2003); "Waxman Ties Evidentiary Noose Around Rice and Cheney" (July 2003); and "Beyond Bush - Part II" (October 2003).
<<snip>>

[Me.]

174. Interesting!

Hey Arby :)

I am wondering what happened to any coup plans and why nothing was done unless it was Goss' arrival? A coup would certainly have put paid to any re-election hopes. But perhaps the nails are still being put in the coffin, behind closed doors.

The questions by NewJeff were exactly what I've been asking myself over the last 24, and that "and any that may follow" answers them.

I can't help hoping, that as there is a schism between Rove and the veep's office that when all is said and done, that Rove hisses into * ear to screw them, let them twist in the wind. We know that if they lose this election the pugs are all set to blame the neos, so maybe they'll set up a lynching party and use the cases Fitz is working on as a means of stringing them up. Perhaps, even, papa will tell junior to put down that pardon pen. Aah well, hope springs eternal.

[coeur_de_lion]

175. I think that no matter what Goss does

Hey there Me! :hi:

Methinks -- the intelligence community is pretty steamed and will still go ahead with the "coup." We've seen so many articles and books by present and former members of the IC coming out. My take is that they are more powerful than we give them credit for. I think (hope) that no matter who wins tomorrow the IC will continue their counter-attack on * and his evil cohorts. Goss can slow them down, but he can't stop them, IMHO.

Of course if Kerry wins he will force Goss to take a stand. And if Goss does not cooperate he can get rid of him.

The truth WILL come out. One way or the other. Have faith.

"But say, my lord, it were not register'd,
Methinks the truth should live from age to age,
As 'twere retail'd to all posterity,
Even to the general all-ending day."
Shakespeare, Richard III Act III Scene I

[Me.]

176. Kick * Butt Out

[kohodog]

177. These are indeed interesting times

All eyes are focused on tomorrow, but I can't help from thinking that the wheels are still turning behind the scenes. With a Kerry win, the wheels are likely to speed up so they can get try to get their pardons. But it will be important to see justice done as these actors keep returning to the scene. We won't need Iran contra III in a few years so we need to keep the pressure on to expose these guys.

[Me.]

179. An Election Day Kick For Justice!

[H2O Man]

180. Election Day!

YIPPIE!!!!!






sorry for the outburst.....

[coeur_de_lion]

181. *KICK* for President Kerry