Help Me Understand Stolen Honor

[iamjoy]

I mean, besides as a blatantly anti-Kerry smear to get Bush elected, help me understand the concept behind it.

The theme, as I understand, is that Kerry, by speaking out against the Vietnam war, by making allegations of war crimes made things worse for the POWS being held by the VietCong. Supposedly, they were tortured to get confessions of these war crimes of which young Kerry spoke.

My heart breaks for these POWs, truly it does. But SOME of our soliders were committing atrocities in Vietnam. Was Kerry not supposed to talk about it? Was he not supposed to speak out against an unjust and brutal war because to do so may give comfort to our enemy?

I'm confused here.
:shrug:

[mikehiggins]

1. Well, yeah.

Its the same thing as the present bullshit: you have to lie about what is going on because its our guys (and our Supreme Leader) doing it.

Team spirit, remember? Winning isn't everything, its the only thing.

These guys have an issue but its with McNamara and LBJ and Nixon, not with John Kerry. Facing up to that fact, however, means that they also have to face the fact that their suffering was in the wrong cause, for the wrong people, but that ultimately, it meant nothing. They were betrayed, but not by John Kerry. Under Nixon the US cut and ran in the end, and how long did it take for us to get these guys back afterwards?

I feel their pain, as the saying goes, but they are wrong about who was its cause.

[maxsolomon]

2. i believe you've hit on it

anything you say against an american war, however egregious or pointless the situation, is basically equivalent to treason.

watch: 'the iraq invasion is about maintaining our access to mideast oil supplies, not freedom or democracy'. hark, i hear the jackboots approaching...

kerry should have kept his mouth shut & gone to work for the RAND corporation like a good little sheep.

[Virginian]

3. I thought swift boat ad odd on that too

Swift boat ad woman: "We were married in 1963, three years later my husband became POW..."
Man was shot down in 1966 had been in captivity and interrogated for 5 years. Suddenly something said before congress is going to make VC start asking that POW questions again? I think by that time the POW had already been questioned all he was going to be questioned. They knew they weren't getting anything more out of him.

[dogtag]

4. Their claims are completely bogus.

In all the thousands of pages of material recounting the history of the Vietnam POWs, there is NOTHING that supports their charges. The POWs never heard of John Kerry when they were imprisoned. The charges only surfaced after John Kerry became the nominee of the Democratic Party. Not a peep was heard prior to that event.

John McCain, among many others, has said publicly that these charges are not true, but the Swiftboat slimers don't care about the truth.

When Nixon and his minions tried desperately to find anything to use against Kerry, they went through his record with a fine tooth comb and couldn't find a thing to use against him. There were no stories then, while the war was still in progress, about his medals for bravery being undeserved and there were no unwarranted Purple Heart tales either.

The problem with "Stolen Honor" as well as the smear ads is that the claims are untrue. If they want to squawk about Kerry's testimony, they could do so honestly. They could air the entire speech he made before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and let people make up their own minds, but they won't do that. They can't do that. Anyone with a brain can see that John Kerry was trying to put a stop to a useless war and bring the troops home. That's what they don't want people to see.

[Mz Pip]

5. Blame Kerry

for every bad thing that happened. It's the same as the blame Clinton mentality.

Forget that Kerry was one of many who spoke out against the war.
Forget that our Foreign Policy was responsible for our being there in the first place.
Forget that it was the VC who actually tortured the POWs.

It's all Kerry's fault.

MzPip
:dem:

[Bandit]

6. They feel the same way about those who outed the torture

They say we should never have made our crimes public because it just gives the enemy more ammunition, as if they need any more ammunition. It is a very sick mentality that demands silence about atrocities in the name of patriotism. These people are not Americans they are fascists and need to be told so to their faces, just like Jon Stewert did to Tucker. I'm tired of it and will not hesitate to tell any and all exactly what I think right to their unAmerican face.

[Virginian]

7. timeline

Just to add perspective to memory, we probably need a timeline.

If my memory serves me correctly:

1968: Former Attorney General Robert Kennedy, while running for nomination for Dem candidate for POTUS came out against the war in Viet Nam.

1969: Nixon inaugerated POTUS.

1970: Kent State.

1971: John Kerry, representing Viet Nam Veterans against the war spoke before congress recounting the stories other veterans had told him they had witnessed.

What other mile posts can others remember to add to this?

[TaleWgnDg]

8. I strongly urge you to see PBS Frontline . . .

"The Choice -- 2004." It will answer all your questions. See this url at:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/choice2004/

For time and date of this PBS Frontline program, see this url at:

http://www.pbs.org/tvschedules/

In short, upon Kerry's return from his 2 volunteer tours of Navy duty in Vietnam, Kerry protested the Vietnam War. Actively and decisively protested the War. I remember seeing him, personally.

Kerry is a born leader and became active in a vets anti-war organization, and collected stories from other returned Nam vets. He then appeared b4 congress, sworn u/ oath, and re-told those very same stories that were told to him by other returned Nam vets.

He was dislike due to two reasons: (1) he actively protested the war; some Nam vets hated that; and (2) Kerry told congress about his protests with other Nam vets and Kerry recited to congress the vets stories of "war atrocities" according to the Geneva Convention, all of which further incised some Nam vets.

And the hate still brews to this day. Go figure that some Nam vets don't like the idea that they went to war for no damn good reason, would you? They took it negatively against their manhood, their honor, and their character. However, they never reasoned that it wasn't their fault, they internalized it as something against themselves. As does McNeill (is that his name)? who still holds the grudge against Kerry. McNeill (name?), as you will learn in that PBS Frontline program, was set-up by none-other-than Richard Nixon and his cronies.

[Vickers]

9. Don't you remember? Kerry wearing that necklace of Vietnamese ears

at the debates?

You don't remember THAT?

Oh yeah...it never happened. Sorry.

Love,

Karl Rove

[dogtag]

10. The initial post on this Thread from August

says it all:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x645598