GLBT DUers: Is christianity a sin?

[Zorra]

Sin: (1) The act of breaking a religious or moral law. (2)An offense, error, or fault.

Personally, I don't much care about a persons sexual, gender, or religious proclivities as long as someone does not hurt others or restrict their inalienable rights, referred to as being given to us by the Creator in the Constitution.

However, historically, so called "christian" groups have persecuted and killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people, and have consistently trampled on or attempted to restrict the rights of non-"christians".

I am not aware of any GLBT groups that have ever engaged in this type of group sociopathy.

So, from my point of view, many (not all) "christians" may represent a threat to my personal physical well-being, and also wish to restrict my inalienable rights, while GLBT folks do not.

I'm not sure if some types of "christianity" are a choice or if it they are genetic, so I am going to have to say that I don't think that "christianity" in itself is a sin despite the fact that many so called "christians" pass unreasonable judgements upon, and wish to persecute and restrict the rights and liberties of, my GLBT American brothers and sisters.;-)

[Placebo]

1. Starting Polls Like This Is a SIN.

[stavka]

13. I agree....

what is the point of such stuff?

[kikiek]

2. Bad day for me to answer that one. Saw a church today its sign made

to say to all that they should pray to have a christian leader elected. I thought it was very offensive in many ways. I certainly support GLBT hope it was ok that I answered.

[cally]

3. I think I understand your dismay

I was also thinking of posting copycat threads.

Most Liberal Christians do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. I know it's a heated issue in most churches but at least acknowledge the many of us who are fighting the battle.

I'm sick about the previous thread and just furious about most church's stand on homosexuality. Christ never spoke about homosexuality, but he spoke about love and acceptance. That's his message.

[Bluebear]

4. Thank you Cally.

It means a lot to hear.

[Zorra]

Yes, I agree with you - except that you used the qualifier "Liberal" when

you referred to Christians.

Apparently, someone becomes a Christian when they undergo a divine experience that is a "spiritual rebirth" known as being "born again", and unless someone undergoes this experience, they cannot be a Christian.

In my uneducated opinion, I think people that have undergone this spiritual rebirth do not judge others and do not consider being GLBT a sin.

The rest of the people that call themselves "christians" seem to be part of a completely secular "conservative" political movement that uses "christianity" as a means for social, political, and economic gain, and as a skewed means to justify their fear and/or hatred of anyone that does not share their (generally) twisted values or believe as they do.

[cally]

7. I know you are angry but please

understand that Christianity has many sides. No, not all Christians have a spiritual re-birth. Some do and it can lead to compassion or intolerance. Some of us are baptized into the faith at a young age. We don't believe you need to be born again. Of course, in practice, you need to decide to practice when you are able to make that choice. The idea of born again Christians is not accepted in some Protestant faiths.

[Zorra]

11. Please do not confuse my observations

with anger.

It really appears to me, and I think, to a lot of other folks, that many people who refer to themselves as "christians" cannot agree upon what Christianity is, or what it professes, and that many of them appear to understand little about the real nature of their faith.

For instance, it seems to me that many Christians don't seem to understand the very essence of what Jesus said, and what the essence of Jesus' "philosophy" is:

MATTHEW 22:34-40 (RSV)

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the
Sad'ducees, they came together.
And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him

"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the great and first commandment.
And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as
yourself.
On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

Now, that seems to be clear and simple to me. I can agree with that.

If having the experience of being "born again" is not necessary in order to be a Christian, it is difficult to understand why the founder of Christianity would say something like this:

"Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi , we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do see Miracles Of Jesus Christ], unless God is with Him."
"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see The Kingdom of God."

"Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter The Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'"
(John 3:1)

Christianity is very confusing. Jesus said one thing, yet many of his followers actually believe something completely different, and actually many of those who claim to be christians have no idea what Jesus said.

The religion founded on the words of Jesus is truly a fascinating phenomenon. It seems so simple, but people have made it so confusing and ridiculously complex.

[Beam Me Up]

17. ZORRA: "born anew" has different meanings.

You are on target with your analysis but there are many different levels to this question.

The most important question is, how can one BE a Christian (not in quotation marks)? That is, who can have the BEING of a Christ? Who among us can actually BE that? Anyone who does not have that as his or her aim can not properly call him or herself a Christian. Of course, most who profess to be "Christians" don't know this or wouldn't accept it even if they heard it. For them, "Christianity" is a matter of "faith" or "belief".

Christ was a SPIRITUAL teacher (not unlike a 'Zen master' or 'guru' or 'avatar' speaking in riddles, knowing that the most important things can not be grasped by reason alone). He speaks of the "Kingdom of Heaven" -- which, in our time, might be more properly translated, "The Lawful Order of the Cosmos."

His teaching is one of REPENTANCE which means to CHANGE THE MIND. Of course this doesn't mean changing an opinion, it means a fundamental change in one's understanding and experience of what is REAL. One must learn to live from the INSIDE OUT.

Jesus the Christ uses an ancient, archtypal language (mostly now lost to us) to express his teaching. Fire, water, stone, seed, fruit, fishes, lamps, brides, servants -- these things all have an ESOTERIC (inner) meanings quite appart from the socially constructed associative meanings we give to them.

If you are interested in this subject you might want to take a look at 1) "Lost Christianity" by Jacob Needleman and 2) "The New Man" by Maruice Nicoll. (I can loan you copies, they may be out of print.)

Edit: oops, spelled your handle wrong! Also, for what it is worth, I am gay and most of my family of origin identify as "fundamentalist or "born again Christians."

[Zhade]

28. In fact, it would seem to truly follow Christ...

...one would *have* to be progressive.

Conservatives are all about maintaining the status quo, not challenging it. It sure seems to me that, if done honestly and with heartfelt intentions, challenging your old self to become a better person through your faith is about as progressive as you can get!

Accepting others for who they are, as they were born, is challenging and progressive. To deny the obvious fact that people like myself are just different from straight people, but not better or worse, is to shrink from challenging one's self, from challenging the old status quo. It's quite conservative.

[Zhade]

30. This was supposed to be a reply to Zorra's "qualifier "Liberal"" post.

NT!

[Zhade]

26. "I'm sick about the previous thread..."

I'm mostly disappointed - I had no desire for it to be a flamebait thread, but I think some suspect that was my intent.

That's my fault for not clearly indicating, ahead of time, why I was asking: because I heard about the anti-gay Evangelicals on the Mall today, and I was wondering if others were as angry as I was about it.

I know there have been a lot of flame wars over Christianity, so I did hesitate to post, but I figured the basic premise of homosexuality-as-sin wouldn't really exist on a liberal, progressive site such as DU and that we could discuss the (I thought) crazy notion that conservatives seem to have, which is that something created by the god they believe in was "an abomination".

Needless to say, I was truly surprised by the significant minority that said how I was born is, in fact, a sin in their eyes. I didn't honestly think there would be much of that kind of mentality on this board, because while there are a lot of Christians, most are true Christians who follow Jesus' teachings about love for one another. To me, claiming that the way I was born (or, in their view, made by God) is sinful and in need of forgiveness seems contradictory to the very idea of a loving god who allegedly deems all he creates good.

I'm not sorry I posted the poll, but I am sorry that my intentions weren't clear enough to avoid accusations of flamebaitery.

[Zhade]

29. .

.

[troubleinwinter]

5. I see no value or purpose to polls such as this.

[Zorra]

8. This poll was perhaps a lame attempt to encourage thought

about this subject from a different point of view.

It was somewhat in response to another poll that asked the question:

"Christian DUers: Do You Think Homosexuality Is A Sin?"

I'm really very sorry that you do not see the purpose or value in it.

[OutsourceBush]

6. It's only a sin when practiced by Nazis

[Rowdyboy]

9. Thank God my church (Episcopalian) affirms my sexuality as a choice

not a sin.

[Brian_Expat]

39. Then your church is wrong. . .

. . . since it wasn't a choice for me (as was proven handily in my teenage years when MY church sent me to a "camp" to "renounce my choice.")

[JohnOneillsMemory]

10. Christ was the most famous nurturing liberal. Most of the Bible is

comprised of ancient folk tales told by angry violent men about how 'God' told them to destroy their enemies and their enemies children, women, animals, and crops and perpetuates the inhumanity of violence as a tool of justice because 'God told me.'

To the degree that 'Christianity' reflects the non-Christ part of the Bible, it is harmful to the social fabric of western culture and might be termed 'sin.'

I know you were making a point by putting up this poll but the question is worth considering none the less.

The Bible is a good illustration of how something we can respect becomes interwoven with horrible things that take on a contact integrity where none is due.

Another example of this is supporting our children in the military and becoming complicit in the murder of children in another country. We care for our own in 'harm's way' and end up justifying atrocity in a trickle up of our humanity to the war criminals who design the atrocities our children carry out.

I suppose you might call this dynamic 'innocence by association.'
Thus it is with the kindness of Christ and the horrors of the Bible.

[Zhade]

31. Awesome. Just awesome.

Another example of this is supporting our children in the military and becoming complicit in the murder of children in another country. We care for our own in 'harm's way' and end up justifying atrocity in a trickle up of our humanity to the war criminals who design the atrocities our children carry out.

That is exactly right. Excellent post.

[AntiFascist]

12. Interesting question, but I think the bible itself in some of its....

prophetic insight predicts that Christianity may be used in evil ways. I think there are even parts of the old testament that may warn about this.

[Eloriel]

14. No, but it sure has been responsible for a lot of spiritual abuse

over its 2 millennia of power.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

15. Christianity is the enemy of the gay and lesbian folks, true...

...but we shouldnt single-out this faith as Islam is pretty anti-gay too, as is orthodox Judaism.

I don't know enough about Bhuddism or Hinduism or other eastern religions to say about them.

I think as long as Christians accept the teachings of Paul as divinly inspired they will have to be be anti-homosexual, as its some of Pauls letters that is the strongest New Testament biblical justification for homosexuality as a sin.

[Selwynn]

22. I'm a christian and I'm not your enemy.

So.. where does that leave us?

[phylny]

41. The same here.

I have always found it interesting that some people think it's okay to bash Christians, but not okay to bash someone who is a lesbian or homosexual. Those who do characterize all Christians the same way, leaving no room for the possibility that some of us are loving, accepting people.

But, that's the way it is. I'm actually sorry I opened this thread. I find it very offensive.

Bash away.

[Mandate My Ass]

16. The irony is

that Christ was the ultimate iconoclast.

The sermon on the mount was a radical condemnation of the entrenched religious doctrine of his time. Much of that doctrine, and its harshly judgmental underpinnings, is still practiced by Xtians today.

[IronLionZion]

18. you rabble rouser!

:P :toast:

throwing your beliefs in someone else's face is a sin IMO, whether you're Christian or Republican or whatever.

[Zorra]

19. ?

;-)

[queerart]

20. That Was Too Damn Funny!

<<I'm not sure if some types of "christianity" are a choice or if they are genetic>>

There are many good Christians out there that do not turn their belief in God into a "Pissing Contest"

It's like any other thing my friend.....

There are good, & bad Christians.....

There are good, & bad Queers.....

Above all we must at least try to get along.


We can all think about.... "What Is The Most Important Leg On A Three Legged Stool"? We all need one another to survive, and prosper:-)

[Morning Dew]

21. I don't have a problem with Christianity as long as . .

They don't try to shove it down my throat or flaunt their practices in front of me. I don't think they should teach it in the schools either.
I mean, they chose that lifestyle, right? It's not like they're born that way.

[AntiFascist]

24. hehe, exactly, and maybe they should provide parental controls....

so that we don't have to expose children to it.

On Edit: Just kidding, I didn't mean to offend. I was referring to fundamentalists.

[maveric]

23. I'm straight and I'm beginning to think that christianity is a sin.

That other poll is fucking flame bait. Avoid it!

[Zhade]

32. Please see post #26. I did not intend it to be flamebait at all.

NT!

[Selwynn]

25. There seems to be a GLARING DOUBLE STANDARD here

I'll defend "Christians" here in the same way I defended "GLTBs" in the other thread: by pointing out that sweeping stereotypes are stupid.

Before I continue, I need to say that the reason this thread exists is to make a well-deserved point against the "other" poll up on the boards right now, and that's fair.

But to continue anyway, I'm a Christian and I am neither the enemy of homosexuals nor think homosexuality is a sin. And guess what, I'm not even remotely close to alone. Plenty of Christians feel the same way too, in fact no only do some feel the same way, they are in fact homosexuals themselves. In fact there are homosexual Christian clergy as well as homosexuals in every other conceivable position of Christian service.

There is of course, also massive massive hatred and denigration of gays in other Christian circles. No one would deny that. What can I say? Those circles are wrong. There are a lot of gay non-Christian people in the world with wrong ideas too. It's not like those of us with a personal faith all sign a little card and think exactly the same as anyone else. My personal faith has not persecuted you, or any other gay person, or anyone for that matter. I have not burned anyone at the steak, or attacked other lands because of my personal beliefs. I can't control what others choose to do in the name of their beliefs - I can only control what I choose to do.

I am not a person of faith so that I can belong to a "club." In fact I don't attend a public church congregation and I'm not a "member" of any "denomination." My faith is personal and private, and really none of your business, just like your sex life is personal and really none of my business. I choose to judge you based on what you say and do and how you treat me and treat others. I ask that you do the same to me, and leave my faith out of it. :) I don't force it on you, no reason for you to attack it with me.

My faith is a matter of personal experiential belief and my values and religious language have made my life better and more joyful. Who are you to denigrate that by continues berating and mocking and scorn of the things I hold dear? That's what it feels like when my Christian faith is constantly attacked. I don't constantly attack your homosexuality, and yet you feel that somehow my faith is different. You get furious when some nasty folk claim that you choose to be gay and that you should "get help" and be made "un-gay." And then you turn around and say the exact kinds of things to people of faith. How dare you.

I love you, and I affirm you and esteem you as my brothers and sisters and fellow human beings, perfectly acceptable in every way. I really don't care about your sexual orientation one way or another. I just want you to be happy and full of "joy unspeakable and full of glory" as often as possible. However you best do that, that's what I support with absolute sincerity...

....AND ALL I ASK IS FOR THE SAME IN KIND.


(note - I realize I have used the personal "you" here a lot, and have refered to "constant attacks." I am not accusing the orginal poster of constant attacks on my faith. I am saying that I endure constant stereotypical overgeneralized attacks on my faith in general, which is painfully difficult to not take personal, on this site every day by the anti-faith crusaders.)

[Zhade]

33. "My faith is personal and private, and really none of your business..."

Just as Jesus taught - and I admire that greatly.

Please see post #26. I tried to clarify why I posted the other thread.

[phylny]

42. Beautiful. You made me cry.

Thank you, thank you for being so eloquent.

[Duncan Grant]

27. Standing ovation!

I love this thread.

I just began reading "don't think of an elephant!: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate" by George Lakoff. I mention it because he writes about how conservatives and the extremist right wing have framed political discourse over the last 40 years. He offers an alternative to progressives about how to reframe those debates.

All that background info just to say - I love how you reframed the question of sin (big smile on my face right now). :) I couldn't agree with you more! I also love the indignant responses. LMAO.

Seems to me that Jesus was a rather subversive figure for his time; he doesn't even 'square true' to the Father of the OT. Puzzling, isn't it?

And the idea that clinched-sphincter fundamentalists refuse to consider the context in which Jesus lived and taught...well, that's simply a lifestyle of superstition and ignorance - not to mention a perversion of all things that are sacred (how was that for an unsubtle 'reframing'?). :D

Anyway, I do want to acknowledge the existence of a more liberal and generous Christianity; it is out there. What an irony that those Christians are more concerned with humanity than the accumulation of power, influence and money.

Peace to you, 'sister' Zorra. :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

34. X-tians are unfriendly humans.

They seem to like oppressing others.:( Maybe that's why they work for the alien lizards, who therefore use them to do their dirty work.x(

[Selwynn]

35. Does that include me?

[Swamp Rat]

37. From what I've read in your posts I'd say no.

You seem nice to me... Why?... Do you work for the alien lizards? :scared:

[JohnKleeb]

36. Not all like it

remember there's good and bad in all.

[Swamp Rat]

38. Ah Grasshopper!

You are wise beyond your years.

[JohnKleeb]

40. Nah I am an idiot

but really, there is good and bad in all. Religion isn't a bad thing nor is not believing in god or anything, now harassing someone because of that is bad.