No common ground between lesbians/gays & christians?

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

I dont see it.

I did look at those "poll" threads (and posted on one), and pretty much can't see any true common ground.

If I understand scripture correctly the Bible is divinely inspired, especially the New Testmanent. Of course that includes the words of Christ, who is the son of God. And, as far as I can tell He didn't make any specfic reference to homosexuality.

However, the New Testament does include the words of Paul, and I think its some of Pauls letters that specifically condemn homosexuality as a sin.

So, for Christians to say homosexuality isnt a sin they are going to have to discount those references in the letters from Paul.

So, I guess it depends on how one defines "Christian", or how much of the New Testament Christians accept. As far as I know Christians have to accept the entire New Testament as divinly inspired in order to be really Christian...of course I could be wrong on that.

[freetobegay]

1. How many times have these teachings been translated?

We will never know what was in the original. I know that God loves me & he's the one that made me who I am. Thats all I need to know.

[The Traveler]

2. My take on it

Ignore Paul. He is a crashing bore who brought into Christianity the very structural rigidity Jesus so clearly deplored. Paul is necessary in the history of the Church because he establishes the foundations of dogma. The Jesus movement was all about spiritual training and deeds ... it was all simply too radical for the times. It had to be contained.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

4. I always wondered about that.

Paul, which is such an important part of the New Testament, is really just a commentary, isnt it?

If one wanted to go back to a primitive Christianity, one would read the words and deeds of Christ, and maybe de-emphasise Paul.

[The Traveler]

7. Paul is converted

after Jesus' death, so he wasn't a direct recipient of the teaching. He was a great organizer, and was already some sort of priest/theologian.

It really is about what works for you. Take what you can use and ditch the rest. For me, simplicity works best. Paul adds complexity, of the sort that leads to all sorts of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin" issues.

[checks-n-balances]

13. You're on the right track with that one

Paul had some very deep and inspired words to say, but not all the time. I'm with you; I consider his writing as commentary. My biggest bone of contention with Christianity is that not enough of us are really following Jesus; we're following Paul or some other writer whose words are easier to go along with.

BTW, not all Christians insist that the Bible is totally inerrant and to be taken literally (or else "you're not a Christian"). If that were so, I couldn't belong and neither could a lot of intellectually honest people. It's harder to study the whole Bible critically (using the words & actions of Jesus as the barometer) than it is to accept it at face value ("God said it, I believe it, that settles it").

I don't think everything in the Bible is straight from God's mouth. The actual title of The Word of God goes to Jesus, not the Bible (it's the "word of God" - not with a capital "w".

Christian non-acceptance of homosexuals occurs more because of the prejudice of the people who want to take that view. How convenient that parts of the Bible give them ammunition to hate and treat as second class. These are often the same people who believe the Bible justifies all kinds of wars and hatred of one's enemies. But the God that I see in Jesus is much more gracious than that!

(Sorry for the rant)

[Mandate My Ass]

3. Your premise sounds exactly like GWB's to Saddam Hussein

prove you have no weapons of mass destruction or prepare to die. Prove Paul wasn't a raving psychotic or burn in hell for all eternity.

[Solon]

5. errr...

As far as the references to homosexuality in the Bible. It could be interepreted in many ways from the old testament. As far as Paul, he wasn't divine, he was human, and was therefor fallible, so I wouldn't consider him authoritive as far as what was a sin or not.

[Amich]

6. I look it as according to christians god doesn't make mistakes

it has been scientificly proven that people are born the way they are so god made them that way so it can't be a sin. I also look at the bible as written for MAN by MAN.

[MaryBear]

8. Paul had some good things to say, but

he was off base on some things. I view him as an org development guy, focused on building the early church. He was human. Do you follow everything a particular human tells you? Check out Stealing Jesus : How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity by BRUCE BAWER.

GB

[Technowitch]

9. Paul only spoke against male-male homosexuality

He had nothing whatsoever to say about lesbians. ;)

[TahitiNut]

10. He really wasn't even talking about that.

He was commenting on the corruption of priests who kept little boys to bugger (pederasty) - a particularly noxious practice in Christian churches of Paul's day. The only reason it was just boys in those days was because women/girls weren't permitted even such 'junior' roles. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with homosexuality. That's a completely repudiated interpretation - except among ignorami.

Interestingly, it seems that Paul's concerns have been born out. NAMBLA was started by a priest. Pedophilia in the church, as we know, continues to be a problem ... 1900 years later.

[sam sarrha]

11. There is common ground ... gay, straight, lesbian or christian..bush is

screwing them all.

[Beam Me Up]

12. Paul was very likely a Gnostic

Instead of interpreting the book literally as their orthodox counterparts did, the gnostics read the epistle to the Romans allegorically. Therefore, what was perceived as a treatise commenting on Jewish/Gentile relations in the church by the orthodox, the gnostics believed the text spoke about pneumatic/psychic relations. They believed Paul used such terminology secretly and that only the initiated believers could understand the real meaning behind the text.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1563380390/qid=1097988415/sr=8-5/ref=pd_csp_5/103-0937332-2119003?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

From First Corinthians, Chapter 2:

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that
are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor
of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a
mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God
ordained before the world unto our glory.

But it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear
heard, neither have entered into the heart of
man, the things which God hath prepared for
them that love him.

But God hath revealed them unto us by his
Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things,
yea, the deep things of God.

[sam sarrha]

14. paul was a right wing F'n Bigot, after his conversion just a F'n control

freek...the others just ditched him after the crusifiction.

[Zorra]

15. But, who said that someone has to accept the entire Bible in order to

be a Christian?

To quote the wise and all knowing Church Lady, "Could it be.......Satan?"

There is no evidence that Jesus ever said anything like "You must believe in this Book in order to be a Christian", and Jesus is called the "Christ", the word from which "Christian" is derived.

Now, this guy Paul said that "all Scripture is God breathed". I'm not sure if he ever, in his wildest dreams, considered that people would read his letters and centuries later consider his words "scripture" and "the divinely inspired word of God".
(Reminds me of this book I read a while ago called "A Canticle For Liebowitz" - some guys found a grocery list written in the past by a guy named Liebowitz and they called it sacred scripture and made it an integral part of their religion)

It almost seems like there are 2 distinct schools of Christianity - One is a group of the followers of Jesus, and the other group are followers of Paul.

Maybe these latter folks should be called "paulists" rather than Christians.

But as far as common ground goes, there are many "christians" who would like to persecute GLBT folks and restrict their civil rights. But it seems to me that GLBT folks don't want to persecute "christians" or restrict their civil rights in any way, they just want christians to leave them alone and let them live in peace.

I sure am glad that the founders of this nation wisely decided to separate church and state - can you imagine being forced to live your entire life under the direction of some misguided religious fanatics whose entire philosophy is based on some insane lie?

What if, like, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon took over the US and proclaimed himself god, and forced everyone to do what he said and live as he directed?

Yuk.

[Swede]

16. The bible is interpreted in many different ways.

Protestants are really that,they protested the Catholic interpretation of the bible. There are schisms in the Catholic church. You cannot lump them in one group that hates something.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. Paul condemns a lot of things

Liberal Christians try to perceive the difference between cultural differences or personal prejudices and eternal truths.

Homosexuality is mentioned so little in the Bible that the fundamentalists have to really search to find their proof texts. The prohibition in Leviticus is about ritual purity, and you'd be hard pressed to find any Christian (or even modern Jew) who keeps all the rules listed there. The "letter to Dr. Laura" that has circulated on the Internet mocks the use of Leviticus as a proof text quite nicely.

The other "proof texts" are from Paul. He says a lot of things, and modern scholars believe that some of his supposed writings weren't even written by him.

In real life, Christian churches, especially the liberal ones, are full of active, loyal gay and lesbian members. The average Episcopal church would fall apart if all the gays and lesbians left.

[Aunt Anti-bush]

18. The thing is,

Christians are told to love the sinner and not the sin, right? So any Christian that is spewing hate against gays or lesbians is misdirected, to say the least.

[Mari333]

19. .......................

www.gaychristians.org