Bush is two-faced, loves religion, doesn't like Christian Coalition..

[madfloridian]

I am not much for just spreading things, but after reading Suskind's article in the NYT magazine....I think we need to be reminded of the ultimate arrogance and two-faced nature of this bunch.

From You Have the Power, Dean's new book.

DEAN..."I hadn't started out a Bush basher. In fact, I'd been predisposed to like George Bush. I knew him personally and had dealt with him professionally when we were both governors. He'd always been charming and hospitable to me and my family, both in the Governor's Mansion in Texas and at the White House. He'd always been more than upright in the business dealings between our states, keeping his word when he had no legal obligation to do so. What I knew of his record in Texas bespoke a moderate man who was willing to put pragmatism before ideology, to raise taxes when necessary to equalize state education spending, and to take some heat from the right wing of his party for doing so. ("I hate those people," he'd once snarled at me when I ribbed him at a White House governors' gathering about some trouble he was having in Texas with the Christian Coalition.)"

[bloom]

1. I read Suskinds article....

I think all his Christian followers are just being used. I don't think Bush* is trying to do God's will at all. I don't think he is making any attempt, whatsoever.

[Yunaleska]

2. Yes he is

He just has a very very perverted view of christianity - the same as any fundamentalist.

The problem some of the fundamentalists have with him is that he is NOT extreme ENOUGH for them. I would suggest you watch TBN every now and then. Some of these people literally don't want to vote for him because he hasn't started Armageddon yet. Because he has failed to go end times on them they feel "betrayed".

[bloom]

4. I think if he had any kind of faith

he would not be so vulnerable. He just ooozes vulnerability, indecision, and weakness. He has no confidence. I think he is a complete sham and does not believe in anything - but money and his friends with money.

I think he says what needs to be said to keep up the charade.

[Yunaleska]

6. You obviously only understand one kind of faith

Fundamentalists can get VERY perverted. Confidence and vulnerability have NOTHING to do with one being a religious fundamentalist.

In fact - lack of confidence and feelings of vulnerability are actually symptoms of fundamentalism. Ever seen an extremist christian talk about how persecuted they are? If the ten commandments aren't on every government building they feel "persecuted". If everyone doesn't think exactly the way THEY do they are "persecuted". If everyone isn't following their religious guidelines then something is wrong with 98% of people they encounter. It doesn't matter if this is true or not - because in THEIR minds it is. That's all that matters. You can't expect an insane person to think the same way a sane person thinks - nor can you understand them from the perspective of a sane person.

They are also a minority - 98% of sane people want nothing to do with them. This leads to isolation and limited relationships to very small like minded groups of people. (this is part of the reason some groups isolate themselves in compounds surrounded with barbed wire and are armed to the teeth) These are not things that lead one to be "confident". This leads one to feel vulnerable as the vast majority of people do not think in the same radical way they do.

I think this lack of understanding of religious fundamentalism is partly why the country is in the shape it is in. Believing one must be confident and invulnerable if they are fundamentalist is a gross misunderstanding of the subject.

[bloom]

9. I suppose you could be right about the confidence thing

What do you think about him "hating" the Christian Coalition.

I'm surprised he would have let that slip.

[Yunaleska]

11. I suspect his goals are somewhat different

He probably does not mind pushing their agenda, but his fundamentalism seems a little bit different than your typical fundie. Honestly I'm not sure how, but it just seems different.

I think he may be displeased with the fundamentalists because they have turned on him to an extent for failing to be as extreme or move as fast as they want him to.

[bloom]

10. From what you describe...

it sounds like none of them believe it - like they feel like they have to pretend to believe something that they don't.

If they believed it - it seems like they wouldn't have to try so hard convincing others and feeling persecuted... and protecting themselves from what might be alternative viewpoints.

[Yunaleska]

12. Not really

Most of them are just sheep. They mindlessly accept what they are told. I suspect the ring leader may not, however.

For example - Benny Hinn. I am 99% sure most of the people that go to his "healing" events believe his shit. However, I am also 99% sure HE doesn't believe it.

I don't see convincing others to go along with them as being "fake" and "pretending". Did the crusaders just go out and slaughter so they could "pretend" they believed everyone needed to be christian? Did the Nazi's kill those with alternate views just so they could "pretend" they believed they were right & supreme in their views?

Forcing others to believe as you do is not a new concept, and it doesn't at all mean you don't believe a certain way.

[bloom]

15. Nazis, etc.

I might not be following you there...

It seems to me like Nazis and those like them (it could happen here) could kill those with alternate views - just to make sure that those people did not influence people who might otherwise go along with them.

Those doing the killing and even ordering the killing would not have to believe 100% in their righteousness. It may be their fear of being called out as being wrong that made them so extreme.


I was just reading a thread in LBN about the soldier who returned home and then killed himself - partly because while in Iraq he went along and carried out the order to kill two Iraqis at point blank range - and so he saw himself as a murderer.

While there are no doubt many who try to convince themselves that they are doing something they believe in - I don't think that it means that they necessarily do. Some people's doubts may be more repressed and/or hidden than others.

It's one of those things that I don't think anyone really knows about another person - for sure. Anyone could be lying about how much they believed in something - or how much it meant for them to believe it.

And while if one believes in God - it is up to God to do the judging of ones soul - those of us here on earth can pass judgments about whether someone is guilty of an atrocity.

I think Bush* is guilty of War Crimes and whether he can convince some people that he thought he was benefiting humanity or doing God's will - really doesn't matter to me.

[AntiFascist]

13. This is an extremely good point....

this came across for me particularly well in the 3rd debate. The fake smile as he was absorbing the attacks from Kerry and then the complete loss of composure when Kerry mentioned that both he and President Bush had "married up" (seen on the split-screen on C-SPAN) It's no wonder he needs to be so insulated.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

3. Exactly.

The republican party uses christians, who will gladly give their vote to an anti-choice reublican despite the obvious fact that the republican party doesn't have the best interests of non-millionares in mind.

[murielm99]

5. They use each other.

It is a co-dependent relationship.

* wants the fundy vote, so he can help other millionaires. The fundies want all the anti-abortion stuff, so they vote for *. They love each other, but hurt each other.

[JohnKleeb]

7. Well you can be religious and not like the christian coalition

Christian Coalition goes against all that I learned from my grandparents on regards to religion. I am surprised though that he doesn't like them, because well it was after all Ralph Reed who engineered his dirty win in South Carolina against McCain.

[madfloridian]

14. I think you are right. I had forgotten the source of that.

CC is exerting a lot of influence, I fear. I see their thoughts taking over the Southern Baptist Churches....which are also influenced by Falwell.

[madfloridian]

8. CC victories, in their own words....stuff Bush stands for supposedly.

This is like going back to the dark ages.
http://www.cc.org/victories.cfm
Here are just a couple.

Christian activists gain pro-life victory in U.S. House against all odds
Christian Coalition led the way in gaining its most stunning and surprising victories in the United States House of Representatives in years, when during the last day of session in the 107th Congress, the House/Senate compromise bankruptcy bill -- which had a pro-abortion amendment attached by ultra-liberal New York Senator Chuck Schumer -- was defeated by a margin of 243-172. What made the margin of victory for us so astounding, is that most of the Republican House leadership supported the compromise." "
(They won against the Republicans...??)

Complete ban on human cloning
In the U.S. House of Representatives, Christian Coalition helped educate and helped pass a bill, HR 2505, by a huge margin of 265-162 that would prohibit human cloning for any purpose including for research purposes.and fines of more than $1 million. It would be illegal for any person or organization to perform, attempt, or participate in human cloning."

Bipartisan "Syria Accountability Act," H.R. 4483
Sponsored by Majority Leader Dick Armey, R-TX, and Congressman Eliot Engel, D-NY and S. 22l5, authored by Senator Rick Santorum and Senator Barbara Boxer, D-CA. (Whoa, our own Dems again?)
Christian Coalition helped get co-sponsors for "The Syria Accountability Act" which will give the president the flexibility he needs to hold Syria accountable for terrorism within its borders, and to return freedom and democracy to Lebanon. Currently, Israel is the only democratic country in that volatile area of the world. Christian Coalition of America will continue to lobby for a vote in the 108th Congress and for enough votes to pass both the House and the Senate. It is time for the State Department to get tough with Syria and treat it as the terrorist state that it is. Persecution of Christians in Lebanon must cease...."