George W. Bush is not Adolph Hitler.

[dave502d]

George W. Bush is not Adolph Hitler. Although we've seen the sentiment in so many different places and in many different ways, the fact still remains that Bush II has not yet achieved Nazi Germany's horror at its apex, but it is like waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's sincerely hard to believe that Bush II's "Final Solution" includes the elimination of an entire race. Although we still have reportedly over one thousand people of Arab decent being held without charge or access to legal counsel, these are not the real enemies of Bush's America. Ever since December of 2000 and especially since September 2001, George W. Bush and his administration have made it more and more apparent just who they consider the real enemy. The enemy is anyone who does not agree with or follow Conservative Far Right dogma. He refers to these Americans as "the fringe."
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/dave300019.htm

[Mabus]

1. the real difference?

Hitler was elected.

[lastliberalintexas]

35. Hitler was also intelligent

No one ever said all smart people are good people. :shrug:

[hiphopnation]

50. More intelligent than Bush, yes.

But as brains go, not the sharpest knife in the drawer. His real talent was his oratory ability and his perseverance. Bush has neither of those traits.

[nostalgicaboutmyfutr]

61. perseverence??? his whole campaingn is based on it...

[hiphopnation]

66. Bush hasn't seen

one fifteenth the setbacks and downfalls that Hitler saw in the years before his rise to power. The Beer Hall Putsch?? Hitler had many embarrassing moments and he never lost sight of his goal. Not trying to glorify Hitler here, only to outline the point that Bush doesn't know the first thing of real perseverance. He has been spoon fed everything his entire life and doesn't know what it means to struggle for something.

His whole campaign is based on empty rhetoric and bald faced lies.

[helnwhls]

2. Good link. n/t

[Lefty48197]

3. Saddam was Hitler.

Remember? Bush Sr. told us that back in '90 to convince us that it was necessary to invade Iraq.

[Eloriel]

4. Please don't imagine

that ANY "final solution" has to be planned or in effect for us to have full-blown fascism right here in the U.S.

So many people reflexively reject the Hitler analogies precisely because of the Holocaust, as if that were the only thing that defined Hitler. It was not. As horrible as it was, it was NOT the only thing Hitler did. It is also NOT required for it to be real, live Fascism.

A modest collection of links:

"fas-cism (fbsh'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm


Keywords: Fascism
(with list of characteristics)
http://keywords.oxus.net/archives/000026.html

Mussolini in his own words.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2413173

1944: American fascism (April 1944 article in NYTimes -- also see 1940s section for the complete article)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=212387

The F Scale
(Measures one's authoritarian personality profile, which makes one receptive to fascism, based on research done after WW2)
http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm
link posted here: He's Acting Like Nixon in the Final DaysHas Bush Gone Over the Edge? (has some good links re fascist personality, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1725171

Fascism Anyone? by Laurence W. Britt
http://secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

Friendly Fascism"(Excerpts etc from Bertram Gross's book)
http://a4a.mahost.org/gross.html



Bethune Institute Anti-Fascist Studies
http://bethuneinstitute.org/index2.html

The Spectre of Friendly Fascism by Bertrand Gross
(book excerpt)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Specter_FriendlyFascism_FF.html


Umberto Eco on Fascism
http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html


What Is Fascism
(This one is quite good and incl. two-tiered legal system as well as many other hallmarks, and Dr. Lawrence Britt's list, and additional links)
http://www.couplescompany.com/FEATURES/Politics/Structure3.htm

Superpower Democracy (another must read)
http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/2003_07_01_gd.html#105880160504381723


IS AMERICA BECOMING FASCIST?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2159330
This article: IS AMERICA BECOMING FASCIST? http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/fascism.htm

-------------------------------------------------------
Some Book Recommendations:
barb1622000 (1000+ posts) Sun Sep-19-04 01:32 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2367949&mesg_id=2369563&page=
29. there are several books
and I don't know if they are still in print but they are probably at university libraries

1. International Relations Between the Two World Wars 1919-1939 by E. H. Carr, Harper & Row, 1947
2. The Crisis of German Ideology by George Mosse
3. The German Catastrophe by Friedrich Meinecke
4. Varieties of Fascism by Eugen Weber

I think the world was quite stunned when Hitler became more powerful and then finally became Chancellor in the mid 1930s. They simply didn't know what to do about it. National socialism was going on in several countries at the same time, including the USA during the time and check the fourth book for an outstanding exposition of the various forms by country.
----------------------------------------------

ORWELL'S VISION IS STILL ALIVE IN 2003
http://www.orwelltoday.com/orwellvision.shtml

They Thought They Were Free
http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

Fascism Anyone? by Laurence W. Britt
http://secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

March 16, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History
by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

The NASCAR Nazi
Bush is creating an un-American America
http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/04/38/lost-washburn.php

It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread (Aug. 03)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853#199877

Nazification of America Phase 3
http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

The Reichstag Fire and 9/11; Pretexts for Dictatorship and the Fourth Reich
Includes: Parallels between the Third Reich and the Bush Regime; 9/11 and the Reichstag Fire; What was the Reichstag Fire; Nazis in America; Poland 1939, Iraq 2003 http://www.oilempire.us/reichstag-fire.html

The Rise of the Fourth Reich
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/reich.html

Bush's 9/11 Reichstag Fire by Harvey Wasserman
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0913-03.htm


20 Comparisons by Barrie Zwicker
http://www.deceptiondollar.com/news/BloorRemarks911-03.htm


The Bush Plan for America: The Rise of an American National Security State
By Jennifer Van Bergen, 14 December 2003 http://www.ftaaimc.org/en/2003/12/3232.shtml

Bush is *not* Hitler!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1868574


What Is Fascism
(This one is quite good and incl. two-tiered legal system as well as many other hallmarks, and Dr. Lawrence Britt's list, and additional links)
http://www.couplescompany.com/FEATURES/Politics/Structure3.htm

Superpower Democracy (another must read)
http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/2003_07_01_gd.html#105880160504381723

America, We Have a Problem
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i4dodd.htm

They Thought They Were Free
http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free_nn4.html

Fascism and America Today
by Aldo Vidali
http://www.apj.us/20010312fascism.html

This is the Fight of Our Lives by Bill Moyers
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0616-09.htm

I'm scared - I've got a mail, sounds real!!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1822699#1822720

E-book - It Can't Happen Here b y Sinclair Lewis
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/l/lewis/sinclair/happen/
Also read: The Iron Heel by Jack London and
"Der Fuhrer" by Konrad Heiden and "The Plague" by Camus
discussed here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2344349#2344364

Published on Monday, July 19, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
The Ghost of Vice President Wallace Warns: "It Can Happen Here"
by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0719-15.htm


===================================================
SYMBOLISM:
You know why Operation "Iron Hammer" sounds Nazi like?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=709776#710186

[Robeson]

11. You are exactly right, and.....

....thanks for the links.

[Cat Atomic]

18. Exactly.

It's like saying, "Bush isn't Hitler. Hitler had a little square moustache". It completely misses the point.

[lastliberalintexas]

40. Some people confuse fascism

with the anti-Semitism of the Nazis.

And while we don't yet know of any alleged Final Solution of this misadministration, I do believe that the fanatical desire of some of the RWers to bring about the End Times is a sort of equivalent. After all, it would also mean the destruction of certain peoples (mostly Jews and Muslims, but also likely non-believers in the area).

But I thin kthe comparison is certainly valid. We're dealing with a bunch of people who actually took notes on the Nazis' actions and who learned from their mistakes!

But if the comparison to Hitler is really just too much for some, we can always call him Franco.


on edit- forgot a couple of words. :silly:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. You're right

He's more like the Argentine generals who used a terrorism scare to destroy democracy in their country in the 1970s.

[indigobusiness]

6. Comparing Bush to Hitler insults Hitler

and compliments Bush.

Much as I despise the Hitler legacy.

[shmendrick]

31. That's despicable

Are you trying to chase every single Jew out of the party?

Bush is horrible, awful, despicable, etc.

But to say that when comparing him to Hitler insults HItler, you need to go back on your meds.

[lastliberalintexas]

43. Although Hitler was incredibly evil,

he was also very intelligent, devious and capable. Shrub may have the maliciousness of Hitler, but he lacks almost everything else. In a sick way, it *is* insulting to compare Shrub to Hitler, since Shrub personally is so incompetent, while Hitler was merely insane. No one said either was a good man, after all.

Sorry if you think that will drive Jews from our party, but I think the majority of them see that Shrub is far more like Hitler than most people want to admit, just not as open about his beliefs. After all, whether it's the FINAL SOLUTION or the END TIMES, each results in the "end" of the Jewish people. Shrub is just trying to make it happen even faster.


Welcome to DU, btw!

[indigobusiness]

49. You have your opinion...I have mine. I stand by my point.

Have you ever studied Hitler? He was a complex, intelligent, sincere man. For all the reasons to loath him, at least he was no clown. And don't forget Prescott Bush was in business with him.

[cosmicvortex20]

36. Its this moronic type thinking that chases away the center...

Go vote green and leave us the center votes.

[ilovenicepeople]

45. I'm sorry that some peoples views here at Democratic Mainstream.com

seem kind of underground,theres not place for that here.:spank:

[cosmicvortex20]

46. Your looking for paranoid-tinfoil.com it would seem.

Why not just accuse the right of eating babies while your at it. That should stir up a lot of votes. :spank yourself:

[indigobusiness]

51. Speak the truth and shame the Devil

...I always say.

You can't manipulate a meaningful victory...the Republicans proved that.

[Kierkegaard]

7. If Bush* had any sort of intellect, he would be much further along

by now.

[rexcat]

8. He is worse!

[shmendrick]

32. No he is not

No he is not. I had entire branches of my family die in the Holocaust.

[TankLV]

37. And I have ove HALF my friends who are Jewish VOLUNTEERING to me IN VERY

HUSHED TONES that they and their families are VERY AFRAID and see the horrible similarities to HITLER.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

INCLUDING MY BOSS AT WORK.

If YOU do not see the similarities, then you are, indeed, blind.

[indigobusiness]

55. The creeping Fascism is self-evident

and it is stunning how sanguine America (in general) is in the face of it.

[indigobusiness]

53. It remains to be seen whose family members will be lost

as a result of Bush's folly. Aside from those lost already.

[tlcandie]

68. deleted

[maveric]

9. Give bu$h 4 more years and he could be Hitler.

With the Patriot Act and jingoistic religous backing in this country he'll get a blank check to rid the world of "terraists",(brown people and muslims), libruls and gays.

[OutsourceBush]

16. Yes, one of the most powerful parts of Nazi-ism

is the us-against-them mentality. Creating an enemy, dehumanizing them, (Jews=rats in Hitler's case)(against us=terrorists in Bush's case). This allows a blank check to do ANYTHING you want. The enemy can be anyone who is non-white, non-christian...whatever.

[robbedvoter]

10. YET! nt

[tinanator]

12. the difference to dead Iraqi and Afghanis is?

what a load of crap. Bush is Hitler. no 2 ways, same shit, different century.

[OutsourceBush]

13. The Bush Nazis would turn on Jews in a heart beat

no problem. The Bushie masses are easily brainwashed. All Bush would have to say is "Jews are terrorists" or "Jews are funding terrorism against us".

[hiphopnation]

52. Or more likely it will be a class thing.

Thier cabal will have no trouble turning out THE POOR whatever thier race, ethnicity, or creed. It's less messy for them that way. Don't have to be worried about being labeled racists. Just classist, which is where the real descrimination lies.

[fugue]

14. No, his final solution is to destroy an entire planet

www.dissidentvoice.org/Oct04/Moralis1015.htm

[Octafish]

15. Hitler was a war hero.

Bush deserted the Texas ANG.

Still, there are similarities:

Both gained office illegally.

Both invaded peaceful countries.

Both believed God talked to them to let them know what to do.

Most important: Bush is WORSE than Hitler because he is armed with the H-Bomb.

[neomonkey]

17. You're right

he's missing an important quality

Brains.

[dave502d]

20. He has a brain in his back pockat or should i say back.

It called Rove.

[The Blue Flower]

19. Don't discount the dominionists

There are 35 million "Christian" followers of dominion theology who believe that the way to bring about Jesus' return is to start World War III in the mid-east and kill all the Jews and Muslims so that Jesus has a Christian world to return to. Tim LaHaye (author of the Left Behind series) is an avid proponent of this concept, as as Micheal Ledeen (sp?), a firmly ensconced neocan, as is Franklin Graham, Antichrist Bush's spiritual advisor. The death, destruction, and chaos in Iraq are not a mistaken byproduct of bush's policy, but instead the very goal of that policy.

No, we aren't there yet, but the structural changes to our government have laid the groundwork. Shelby (AL) of the Senate and Aderholt (AL) of the House have introduced a law called The Constitution Reformation Act that states the Constitution must be made sovereign to God's law and that all judges must take an oath that they believe in God and in the sovereignty of God's law over manmade law. Considering all the Repugnant legislation that has been sneaked through in the wee hours of dark, who knows what these snakes might do?

[fugue]

22. That's actually what my post (#13) is about

If you follow the link. ^_^

[smirkymonkey]

58. And don't forget the Liberals, Gays, and Athiests!

There are hundreds of thousands of Right-Wing Christian Fundamentalists out there right now that are just waiting from the word from the top to start taking out "undesirables".

It may not be a Jewish holocaust this time, but if these bastards get four more years there will be A HOLOCAUST, mark my words.

[Malva Zebrina]

21. there are many things I find similar to Hitler

the holocaust is not one of them, although consider how many Iraqi and Afgan innocent peoples we have been annhilated-- killed, tortured, burned, decapitated, and maimed under the false allegation that their leader needed to be removed because he had WMD. Consider how many Iraqi people do not have a job because our corporations, namely Halliburton and it's subsidiaries,and other war profiteers , have taken their spoils off these people who just happened to be born in that place. Consider how many, some 500,000 children died because of the brutal sanctions imposed upon Iraq.


It is not, of course, the holocaust. We are far more civilized than that <sarcasm>

There are about 200 state owned Iraqi factories, according to a recent article by Naomi Klein , that employ many Iraqi people, as they always have, but they are being shut down after a couple of hours because of lack of electricity. Soon they will be shut down for lack of product and will be bought up by the invaders--us. Knock em down by starvation, then buy them up.

The propaganda machine of George Bush is certainly as good as that of Hitler, who also liked to brag that all he did was "legal"

It is abuot time people admitted that we are the not the knights in shining armour, bringing peace and prosperity to the world. We have fascists running our government,under a stupid and ignorant man who thinks that if one talks big and tough, that is enough to justify a "holocaust" so to speak, by waging war after war and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people, women and children, old women, old men and--in this case they are Arabs.

[Zorra]

23. True. Bu$h is the new, improved, 21st century American version of Hitler.

[Vickers]

24. Remember, at this point in Hitler's career, it was only 1936

The really bad stuff came later.

[lostnfound]

25. How encouraging. Maybe he can put it on his resume.

When he's looking for a job in January.

[autorank]

26. Au contraire dave503d regarding 'final solution.'

You say: "It's sincerely hard to believe that Bush II's "Final Solution" includes the elimination of an entire race."

How about the entire human race. Bush has ignored global warming and other ecological environmental calamities that imperil the entire planet. This isn't tree hugging nonsense. It involves famine, loss of food production, the spread of new diseases, and the elimination of entire coastal areas all over the world. The famine and disease spread that will result from the ignored 'green house' effects ignored by Bush will cost the lives of millions.

Like Hitler, Bush makes decisions that will injure and kill millions based on a bogus set of pamphlets and quack science. Like Hitler, Bush repeats the lies over and over. Like Hitler, Bush has a massive personality disorder that makes him oblivious to human suffering if it gets in the way of his warped world view.

BUSH'S POLICIES WILL KILL AND INJURE MILLIONS DUE TO THE IMPENDING GLOBAL CALAMITY

BUSH IS WORSE THAN HITLER

[agingdem]

27. This reminds me of my father's story...

about my grandparents who were killed in the Holocaust. My father, his seven brothers and sisters and his parents lived in Lithuania prior to World War II. As the children reached adulthood they were encouraged by their parents to leave and they did. Two sisters stayed behind with their parents. When the war reached my father's hometown he begged his parents to leave. My grandmother responded that it was bad but it had always been bad for the Jews so how much worse could it get? Again my father wrote his parents, this time including four tickets on ship headed for Palestine (Israel). Months went by, all letters were returned unopened, and then one day my father received a letter from his parents that had one word and one word only...HELP!. It was too late. So my fellow DUers...Bush may not be Hitler...yet...afteall, how bad can it get?...right?

[timtom]

28. It's not that "Bush is Hitler"

It's that the Bush gang seems to be using the Hitler play book, play by play.

[sofa king]

29. Similarities and Differences.

Differences:

Unlike Hitler, George Bush never served in combat.

Unlike Hitler, George Bush never personally experienced living in poverty.

Unlike Hitler, George Bush did not spend most of his free time reading and learning about a variety of subjects. Bush's defenders call it "intellectual incuriosity," but it is better characterized as ignorance and unwillingness to learn. The President is ignorant of many subjects which should be the concern of a head of state.

Hitler inherited an economic depression and in four years turned it around into the most successful economic boom of that era. Bush's election sparked a recession, which he blamed on his predecessor. Hitler took over an economy with a 23% unemployment rate and reduced it to 3% in four years. Bush took over an economy with a 4.7% unemployment rate and managed to make that rise to 5.4% in August (and as many of us know, it's actually worse than that).

Similarities:

If you ask me, both Bush and Hitler ring most of the warning chimes for http://mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html">narcissistic personality disorder. Most of the major similarities between Bush and Hitler involve the nine diagnostic criteria for NPD, so I'll just skip those.

Both Bush and Hitler showed a preference for misleading the public in their justifications for going to war. Hitler staged a Polish attack on German soil in order to justify an invasion of that country. Bush actively cultivated the erroneous belief that Iraq was somehow behind the attacks of September 11.

______________________

But here's the most important thing to remember: George W. Bush is too stupid to be another Hitler. He simply doesn't have the smarts to singlehandedly manage a totalitarian state, much has he might like to. That is his one saving grace.

[smirkymonkey]

59. He's personally too stupid, but the people pulling his

strings are not. He is certainly evil enough to allow it to happen.

[eauclaireliberal]

30. "George W. Bush is not Adolph Hitler."

The truth is that men are tired of liberty.
-Benito Mussolini

[Gin]

33. George W Bush....is....George W Bush......well on his way to becoming

another hitler......insanity and all. Bush may not eradicate a race...but he will eradicate all the social programs that have made this country great. Rather than killing the masses Bush will kill a way of life for the middle class as we have come to know it.

Hilter did it his way...Bush will do it his way.

Two peas from the same pod. Damn Pod people.

[TankLV]

34. You're right - he's worse at this same stage in history.

What's amazing is that there ARE so many similarities between the two.

THAT is the issue.

NO OTHER pResident can be compared this way.

THAT is what's frightening.

[Lerkfish]

38. George is more dangerous...

(at the moment) he controls more dangerous weapons, military superiority and is determined to complete the neocon hegemony manifesto.

At best, Hitler was only slightly better than some european countries in terms of military power, and was not better than the allies, as it turned out. He was, essentially, dangerous but stoppable.

If Bush is reelected, he will be unstoppable. He will use nuclear weapons in limited theatres at first, (bunker busters) , and then, when no one stops him, he will keep increasing the amount of nukes used. For all the US military's ineptness, it is carrying the largest sticks.

[mike_c]

39. marginalizing "the fringe" will make the roundups easier...

...for the general populace to swallow, at least until they discover how deep "the fringe" actually goes. By then it will be too late-- at least that's what the fascists are banking on. It's an old strategy that's worked over and over.

[mandyky]

41. Bush joked about "things being easier if he was dictator"

Only I don't think he was joking. As someone who often uses humor as a way to speak the truth, I do not think he was joking - he was warning us. And believe me I take that warning as well as the "if you're not with us..." as pertaining to liberals, Democrats, and other non-Nationalistic types. W is a danger to this country. He is a psychopathetic liar and about as compassionate as a scorpion.

[camero]

42. Don't forget Poland

A shot didn't have to be fired to get their support either. Of course in the 1930s, they were considered "terrorists". Which is what they would have been considered if they didn't support Shrub's illegal war.

The only "fringe" people are the warmongers and world domination fetishists in the republican party.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

44. I'm sorry, but threads like this serve only one purpose...

...to bait DUers into making foolish, knee-jerk posts that cause hurt feelings and waste everyone's energy. Thoughtful posts (like Eloriel's, for example) get lost and other posts get undeserved scrutiny. dave502d, I don't mean to imply that this was your intention. I'm sure your motives were good, but I've seen discussions like this before and they are never productive.

[Robeson]

57. Yes and No

First, I really don't see knee-jerk reactions here, other than people stating the obvious. That obvious comes from reading and knowing history, seeing the parallels, and connecting the dots. I respect the fact that many on here are educated enough to do so.

I agree with you on the well said post by Eloriel. If you scroll up, I'm sure you'll see I was the first to do so.

Lastly, these discussions are productive in the sense that not everyone who reads DU actually posts on DU. I'm sure you know that. Many people are lurkers, first time readers, undecided, or maybe even freepers. If we can help to enlighten 1 person, then the endeavor is a worthy endeavor. If we can educate 1 person as to the warning signs and charachteristics of fascism, then we have helped that person.

Democrats shouldn't belittle others, for speaking their mind, and to many on here - including myself - the truth. Lets leave that to the other party.

And yes, I agree that we need to focus on an election that is 3 weeks away. If we are Democrats, then we all are Brothers-in-Arms. Peace.

[mitchum]

47. Hitler's command of the English language was much better

[nomatrix]

48. To put it simply

Bush hates our freedom.

[LisaL]

54. At least Hitler didn't have nukes.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smirkymonkey]

60. Yeah. You're just a regular history whiz, aren't you?

Totally. Stupid. Post.

[JanMichael]

62. Next he'll be comparing the pResident with FDR, or maybe MLK Jr.!

Or Christ, that'll be a good one...

[smirkymonkey]

65. Where on earth do these people come from?

I mean, they don't even come close to the truth! :eyes:

[Junkdrawer]

63. Is that a veiled assassination threat?

:shrug:

[orpupilofnature57]

64. ACTUALLY HE'S LIKE A, FREEPER SLIPPIN TO YA'S

[deutsey]

67. No, he's not Hitler, but...

he is militaristic, authoritarian, and anti-democratic, so he shares these triats with Hitler (who was, without doubt, much more extreme in these characteristics than Bush).

[porphyrian]

69. Klaus Nomi is not Pele.

So?