Is DU just a one-sided crossfire?

[patcox2]

Most people seemed to applaud what Jon Stewart said on crossfire, about how crossfire is to real political debate as professional wrestling is to an athletic competition.

But you know, easily 50% of the discourse on DU is in the same category as the "professional wrestling" discourse on crossfire.

I think we may be seeing the effect of the cartoonish soundbite level of public political discourse in america right here, with the endlessly "dittoed" soundbites, the whoo whoo cheering for Our Side's political hacks and their demagoguery, and most of all, the demonization of the other side, as insane, evil, etc.

I mean, really, how is it different (except that we tombstone our Tucker Carlson's when they show up)?

[klook]

1. Well, DU is not a national "journalistic" TV show, for starters

That's one difference.

[Kolesar]

2. Stop by the Energy and Environment forum sometime

it may change your view of DU.

[aden_nak]

3. We're not Democratic and Republican Underground.

We're not pretending, in any way, to present both sides of any argument. There are political websites that pretend they are debate forums (when in reality they are flame boards with a vaugely political slant), but this doesn't pretend to be one of 'em.

[patcox2]

13. I have no problem with us being completely one-sided.

Its why I come here.

My question is whether, here where we are in sole command of the podium, we use it wisely.

[2ndPlatoon]

59. I have to admit I prefer a debate.

This site is a bit of an echochamber. And not much can be learned about politics here. Only one sided opinions. But this site is good for getting people riled. Whether Laura Bush sold Pot or was a prostitute is true or not...it did get people riled up...


Honestly I am a member of many discussion forums. And I love a good debate. I think it makes people wiser. I think it is good for America to hear both sides.

I don't come here for a debate. This site is sort of like professional wrestling for me. I come here for the entertainment. The absurd. Not the actual facts. And that is why I love the DU.

[Caution]

4. It's different in that we are by definition a partisan group

Crossfire promotes itself as a forum for both views to be heard and more importantly dissected and debated. Instead, Crossfire is nothing more than a soap box for each side where the hosts stroke the egos of their guests and refuse to ask difficult questions of the guest or amongst themselves. It's nothing more than a caricature.

[LuminousX]

5. DU isn't a journalistic endeavor, it is a partisan endeavor

Big Difference.

[patcox2]

9. True, DU has no obligation to be anything.

But what I see is that some of what goes on at DU may in fact be a symptom of the harm done by crossfire, the harm Jon Stewart was talking about, where there is no real debate, just parroting of partisan demagoguery. I think thats the harm he meant, the polarization, the sound-bite analysis.

On the other hand, lots of what goes on at DU is way more than that. For the last 4 years there was more real journalism going on at DU, real investigations, than in the mainstream media.

For example, nothing in F-9/11 was a surprise to me, not one clip, because I had seen them all here (except what Moore shot himself). I kept wondering why he based so much of the movie on House of Saud, House of Bush and ignored so much more good stuff out there on Bush.

So I am not suggesting an equivalence, just throwing out the observation that there is perhaps a distressing amount of the same kind of harmful, professional wrestling rhetoric.

I think its harmful when we, when our side, descends to that level of "fundamentalist" viewpoint in which one side is true and good and right and the other is irredeeemably evil that the republicans live on. I am not advocating being wusses, I beleive that democrats need to fight viciously. Conceding your opponents right to have an opinion and the good faith of his beleifs does not mean you don't crush him when presented the opportunity.

I guess I am looking ahead to after Kerry wins. I do think the Democrats should try to ratchet down the division in this country (while maintaining complete control). We always were better at being magnanimous in victory.

[Joe Chi Minh]

34. self delete

[Zhade]

42. Actually, that's not entirely accurate...

...unless, of course, you mean partisan to liberalism and progressive-ism (progressiv-ity?), since DU is not affiliated with, and does not speak for or with, the Democratic party.

The D in DU really stands for 'small d' democratic, not a party.

[sui generis]

6. I'm sure Skinner can weigh in but my thoughts are

that this forum is the dem version of FUBU: for us by us (well, the admins).

In a political environment where we really are "shouted down" and "freeped" on almost every other board, it is important to have a haven to develop our ideas, and if you watch, they do evolve within this on-line community.

Ditto posts exist because not everyone has more than a few minutes to check for news / views on DU, and so when they do, sometimes old news is still news. The people who are irritated by it are the ones that are glued to DU all day long and see the dittos.

But also, many of the people who post here do go out and do something about it. We write letters to our representatives, we go to city council, we march on Washington, we reply to the freep-mail and we confront stupidity when it's in front of us.

I think DU is exactly what's needed - a home base and safe harbor from which to go out and try to change the world.

[Fovea]

7. But the Lounge is filled

with puppets making crank phone calls!

[Redbear]

8. 1. DU is not journalism.

2. DU provides a lot of great information and ideas. Mainly by providing links to additional information.

3. DU is a gathering place for a lot of great minds.

4. Free speech means including speech that may not inspire and is just venting.

[TahitiNut]

10. The Garbage Rule: "Eighty percent of anything is garbage!"

This holds true for DU, conferences, politics, 'religion,' ... almost anything.

[patcox2]

12. I like that.

reminds one to keep expectations low. Good motto. (I am not being sarcastic here).

[TahitiNut]

17. I was told that by my immediate manager back in 1970.

He was, after all this time, probably the most insightful guy I ever worked for ... a kind of "idiot-savant". He was "under-educated" due to a thorough impatience with 'factory method' schooling and dropped out of Duke for that reason.

When he told me this, my youthfully naive self rejected it. But it stuck with me. In conference after conference (I'm an IT/MIS person), I began to see the truth in it. I have since seen it in all manner of activities from the Usenet to magazines to newspapers to congress' activities and so on.

Al had an enormous influence on my thinking over the years. He was a seer.

[hiphopnation]

30. Also, Frank Zappa

pontificates on this point thoroughly in his auto-biography, a must read!!

[BeFree]

15. Eighty percent?

C'mon... DU is only 75% garbage...

But it's the best garbage around!

----------------

Ya know, if DU were all (k)news and analysis there wouldn't be as many people tuning in.

Try looking at the flotsam as having an entertainment value for some of the less informed that come to DU for information. It does seem a lot of folks enjoy that garbage, eh?

[TahitiNut]

18. OK. Call it fertilizer.

:evilgrin:

(FWIW ... I regard at least 80% of what I post to be 'garbage.' In over 20,000 posts, I'd be astonished if more than 4,000 were regarded as worth saving. I only recall about 50-100 that I take some pride in. And this ain't one of them.)

[BeFree]

22. Bullshit!

That's what I do. Pull a few chains, yank a few legs. It's fun, and I am, for the most part, entertained by DU.

Then there is the serious side. I am a know-it-all, ya know?. But I'll be, the last three years of religiously clicking on these forums has not only learnt me some valuable lessons, but informed that that there is still much too learn. And that ain't no bullshit.

[hiphopnation]

29. music, art, the law, etc.

[Zhade]

44. Agreed, but too generous - I go with 90%.

NT!

[papau]

11. The degree of Offense - DU is a moderate in these items you mention.

I agree that easily 50% of the discourse on DU is the left side of the issue perhaps taken a bit further than "journalistic standards" would allow.

But many of us feel those standards are Bull because they are two faced - For a Dem - see Clinton - the press required nothing by way of proof except a rumor from a GOP person that they knew. For what is obvious to most but which is against the proper good view of the GOP, the press requires super credibility - see Burkhart on AWOL real papers that are a CBS scandal because he refuses to admit he stole them as the GOP "cleaned" the Bush file, or Suskind being trashed today because he is known to not kiss GOP ass as often as the usual media whore - so his report on Bush having a "secret plan - if House Bill 3821 can be called a secret - is trashed by ABC as coming from a non-GOP suck-up and therefore not credible - so I guess one should not read the recent New York Times Magazine article.

At this point the campaign is indeed reduced to "dittoed" sound bites and demagoguery, and we are behind and need to catch up ASAP in this regard as the GOP has shown lies in sound bites at the end of an election work. I do not like it - but as long as the media refuses to call Bush on it, Kerry must go this route.

As to the demonetization of the other side, as insane, evil, etc. - well some of my best friends are GOP - but I really do believe that a lot of GOP i meet are indeed insane, evil, etc...... :-)

[merh]

14. So what do you want from DU?

If this forum doesn't satisfy your needs, then tough.
If you think DUers are ditto heads that just follow, then you are way off and you have not visited all the forums available at DU.

[DemBones DemBones]

36. Probably what he's wanted since joining in 2001, three years before you

came here.

When you see a poster you don't know, before replying to his/her post, you might want to click on his/her profile to see how long he or she has been a member of DU. You could then avoid the embarrassment of telling an old-timer like patcox2 to visit all the forums.

Just a thought.

[merh]

38. I am not embarassed about telling an "old timer" that he may

want to visit other forums if he is looking for something different than what DU provides him. It seems like logical advice, no matter what the age of the poster may be. I didn't think that old timers owned this forum - if he is not satisfied with DU, then he should seek satisfaction some place else.

As an attacked newbie (you have attacked) even I know that this forum does not provide the "crossfire" exchanges he seeks and it is not meant to.

[H2O Man]

48. I agree with Merh .....

But I'll also say that I think DU offers an opportunity to examine many sides of any issue. I've seen fascinating discussions on topics from religion to abortion to national security to 9-11 that reflect a wide range of beliefs. I find that some of the most interesting discussions come from those areas where I disagree -- often very strongly -- with another person's opinion; yet, unlike "Crossfire," it doesn't need to sink to the level of a shouting match with rudeness being mistaken for debating ability.

That said, I fully agree that one need only flip through a few of the forums to come up with great discussions. I do not believe for a minute that the majority of DUers feel pressured to conform to any "group think" or follow any narrow, rigid party line. There may be specific threads that tend to have people with a shared point of view, which explore a topic in an in-depth manner, and thus do not have a "crossfire" type of discussion of non-related opinions. But the beauty of DU is that people are free to start their own threads.
And this one is proof.

[merh]

49. Hello H2O - long time and no debate with you!

I am not sure if this poster fears that DU is lacking discussion or if the poster feels that we have sunk to the Coulter level of discourse by calling the weed that would be king and his admin evil demons.

Either way, to simply suggest that the poster continue seeking what it is he/she is looking for does not seem silly to me, it seems logical.

Thanks for your imput or is it input? :hi:

Good to see you out and about.

[DemBones DemBones]

53. You attacked the poster and in your remarks showed that you

misunderstood what he said. You're saying here that he seeks "crossfire" exchanges so you are not understanding him yet.

My point to you was that people who are old timers in a forum know, obviously, more about its past and "culture" than newer posters, a group that includes you. So when they talk about a change, they do so from a perspective you don't, and can't, share.

[merh]

55. There is nothing illogical about my post and it did not attack.

It asked a question, what does the poster want, then it suggested that he/she search the forums to find what he/she is looking for. I also took exception to his/her implication that DUers are/were ditto heads. Since others have posted responses that contain the crossfire reference, it would appear that they too are confused by the intent of the thread. Since the poster has not replied, I still am not sure what he/she means or is looking for.

The snide replies/attacks are uncalled for as I simply inquired of the thread creator what it is he/she wanted from DU. Sorry if you and other old timers have problems with change. Such a shame. I do find it fascinating that you defend the poster so, especially since the poster has not responded to my original post (inquiry). I do not know his/her intent and am left to surmise.

Maybe an old timers thread should be created so you can reminisce.
You may want to ask Skinner about an old timer forum.

[patcox2]

57. I am not looking for "balance" or criticizing for lack thereof.

I said that in several follow-up posts.

I was asking if anyone thought that too much of the discussion here consisted of the kind of crossfire-type rhetoric that Stewart derided. In other words, has watching crossfire fooled too many people into thinking that kind of nasty rhetoric constitutes "debate." In broader terms, has crossfire dragged down the level od political discourse such that the effect is visible here. Asking the question does not mean I am dissatisfied with anything. Saying "if you don't like it leave" or words to that effect is really a non-sequitor, I think, as well as kinda dumb.

[merh]

60. Guess what, I never said like it or leave it. I suggested you find

other forums that satisfy your needs. You did not compose your post in a way that inferred you wanted to discuss whether or not the art of debate had died on DU. You posted your post as if you had decided it had and all were ditto heads.

If you don't believe me, then read all of the other posts that replied to your thread. Why is it so many on this site chose to attack and belittle those that differ from them? Why must som many dismiss and ridicule the posts of those that differ from them, yet they profess to hold a higher place in the universe that is DU because they are the "elders"?

[H2O Man]

61. What, in the opinion of the "elders"

keeps DU from having a higher quality of debate? I'm guessing that it is not merely the length of time a person has posted. By definition, it could not be, since the elders were once DU babies.

Surely, there are some threads that are of higher quality, and some of lower quality, on DU. Would it be safe to venture that this has always held true?

I'm not an "old timer" on DU, so I can't really speak to what went on before I arrived. But I will say that I think it is possible to engage in interesting discussions on here. Still, there is a time and place for everything, and I enjoy some of the light-hearted threads, as well as many of the off-the-wall ones.

[Cat Atomic]

16. Wait- are you saying Republicans aren't insane and evil?

OMG you FREEPER!

;)

[TexasSissy]

19. This is a PARTISAN site, not bipartisan, for starters. There is no

TRULY objective discourse here. We are all slanted to the left.

Duh.

[Zhade]

43. "We are all slanted to the left."

Don't let the DLCers hear you say that. ;)

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swede]

21. I find DU is ok just the way it is.

If I wanted to be shouted down,insulted,called unpatriotic ,threatened with bodily harm or death,I'd go to a forum that has both sides of the argument.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. anyone who takes random internet banter as seriously as cnn

needs to get a grip!

[BeFree]

24. Is this your question:

Is DU harmful to America?

Stewart's claim is that Crossfire's representation is harmful to America.

Is DU causing harm?

[patcox2]

28. No, I am asking "Can you see the harm caused by crossfire here?"

Accepting the premise that crossfire is a problem because it is not real political debate, it is a circus, its professional wrestling, I am asking whether some of what you see on DU is a product of, caused by, things like crossfire. Not whether DU is bad for america, but rather, whether the harm caused by crossfire is visible at DU.

I have no problem with extreme partisanship, I am extremely partisan democrat. But I see a difference in expressing your partisanship with "My party is great" and expressing your partisanship with "the other side is evil, sick, insane, and criminal." Crossfire clearly created Anne Coulter. What Anne Coulter does is wrong, her rhetoric of hate and violence and dehumanization is morally wrong and the end doesn't justify the means with that kind of stuff. So, the question is, has this same effect that created Anne Coulter influenced the level of debate here. I hate to see liberal Anne Coulters.

[DemBones DemBones]

32. Yes, I agree with that. It's not what

I touched on in my reply below but is equally true, in my perception.

[UTUSN]

25. I See It as: Fellowship of Like-minded People

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding: Is the O.P. asking that we all be disagreeing all the time? People who have lots, most, in common should be able to get together, too. Is a marriage or partnership supposed to be between CONTENTIOUS people?

Fellowship of like-minded people.

[porphyrian]

26. This is a Democratic website, CNN is supposed to be objective media.

You're making the same mistake whatshisfuck was making when accusing Stewart of hypocrisy because of the questions he asked Kerry. That's like expecting an Army recruiter to be able fairly explain peace activism.

[JLJ]

27. From Bush Land...

This place is awesome! After getting beaten over the head all day about how Bush rocks and that I'm a "socialist" and a "commie" because I support Kerry and the Dems (yes those fascist F'ers actually tell me that... can you say McCarthyism?)... it's so refreshing just to come in here and not have to be on my toes. I can just relax, enjoy, and read.

[porphyrian]

39. Well, glad you found us then...

I used to live in Tallahassee, so I've found DU to be an indespensible outlet.

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Good question, pat, and it is seeming awfully one-sided lately in that

people don't talk with one another much. A thread is started, people reply and move on. The threads quickly move on to page 2, 3, 4, 5. For the original poster, or other posters, to go in and reply to a reply seems to be becoming outmoded.
Some people start multiple threads in a short period of time so they would be unable to engage with anyone who replied to their posts unless the replies were rather few.

i'm not liking this new speeded-up DU as much. GD, GD2004, and LBN are moving way too fast while other forums are barely touched.

Much of it now reminds me of the slam books we made in junior high school and seems no more substantive. Remember slam books?

[patcox2]

If I reply that would actually make it a discussion, huh?

You put it well. The "drive by" posts, no discussion, just "yeah" and "thats right," placing greater value on viciousness and cleverness in attacking the republicans, I see what I think Jon Stewart is talking about happening here. Its making me think a little more before I open my mouth (or type.)

I had my conservative brother over saturday night. I had plenty of opportunity to slam bush as a deserter grounded because he had lost his nerve, or as a moron who needs a secret microphone, or a hundred other things. Instead I focused on policy, conceding that Bush of course is doing what he believes is best but that his myopic concern with state sponsored terrorism left him unable to beleive that Bin Laden could hurt us (why should I shoot a $2million missile up a camels ass) and likewise wrongly convinced him to invade Iraq because he is fixated on the idea that only states can support terrorism on the level that can harm us, and this just ain't so. So anyway,p I don't convince him, but he did keep his mind open and he did actually debate the issues, rather than clamming up and entrenching, like people do when you attack.

[DemBones DemBones]

50. It would be a start in that direction, for sure.

Quick hypothesis: this new freneticism or one-sided crossfire or whatever we may call it, is a product of frustration and fear as we near the final turn in this "horserace" and of a population that has grown so exponentially that most of us find ourselves in a room full of "strangers" most of the time. (OK, don't call me out on it, it's not true exponential growth, that was hyperbole.)

Getting back to my point, we're angry, we don't know each other now, and people are sniping at each other, posting to see their name in lights, whatever. We can't go back to the old days and I wouldn't argue that the old days were golden. 80% always was trash (see: Nut, Tahiti, and Zappa, Frank.) We've lost some good posters over the years but we keep getting new ones who may be as good, or better. It's just harder to "know" them.

But where has the 20% gone? Good threads are still started by many posters, many of them people I've never heard of until they start a thread, and I'm heartened by the infusion of new blood, but few threads are lasting any length of time. Are there a lot of people not reading threads, just starting them? There's definitely less cohesiveness, so that it's no longer simply like herding cats but like herding cats in the middle of a giant war between all cats.

It occurs to me that it may be elegantly explained by Garrett Hardin's essay "Tragedy of the Commons," which no doubt many, but not all, of us have read, depending on our backgrounds. (For example, everyone in my field should have read it but it would be very unusual for people in my husband's field to have done so, though we all have graduate degrees.) But I don't know if Hardin, or anyone, can give us a solution, a way to save the commons. We may be devolving into what we hate most by losing, as I think you're suggesting, our ability to see the other side as the decent people, or simply uninformed people, that many of them are.

Continuing to read and post here, in the current climate, may negatively impact our ability to interact in the real world, where there are two parties and deep divisions between their supporters, even though Nader is right that they have much in common, both being too tied to corporate influence. How long can we hold on to our best principles when we are so angry and so focused on attack?

[tinanator]

33. not at all

there is a media warped mindset in play here, but there is another side, more informed Id say, to attempt to correct misconceptions.
Crossfire is crap, partisanship encouraging and unpatriotic pro-corporatist manipulation. People who take Begala as anything but a lowlife are susceptible to the poison, but in these parts there are those who do not and will not be a part of the Mighty Wurlitzer's music.

[welshTerrier2]

35. "Conspiracy? Hell, we couldn't agree on lunch." -- Abbie Hoffman

in these pre-election days, DU does indeed have a certain "groupie" quality ... to the extent that posters are focussed on the "horserace", this is as it should be ... there is no reason to view this negatively ... we are unified today for a purpose ... how much tolerance should be provided to those not supporting the democratic nominee?

now, having said that, i think the unity is derived ... it is not a sustaining characteristic of DU ... we have banded together to accomplish a mission ...

such was not, and will not be, the case ... beyond the borders of supporting Kerry and hating bush, it is not clear that there is much unity at all on DU ... you only need to look back to primary season to see the broad spectrum of attitudes represented here ... and if that's not good enough for you, try building a consensus on a "DU issues platform" ... good luck ...

i think you have made a correct observation of the "my way or the highway" tone in many recent DU posts ... but i think the observation is valid only through November 2 ... after that, you might want to have a flame-retardant suit nearby ...

[DemBones DemBones]

37. Don't you think a lot of posters will leave soon after the horserace ends?

Particularly the RNC operatives.

[sweetheart]

40. When the paycheque stops

:-) ha!

Geez, wouldn't it be amazing to be paid to express independent
liberal views and commentary on DU? Its too bad the DNC does not
offer "DU scholarships" for the nominated.

I find, that DU is the deepest, richest source of thoughtful
discussion on most any topic, and even right wing positions are
discussed and explained so we can see how they are weak and strong
(if there is any substance in them at all.)

[welshTerrier2]

41. that's exactly what i think ...

and i also think that's very unfortunate ...

coming together as a community of activists for a very important election is, well, very important ... but far more important is building a sustainable movement ...

"bush is a jerk", "bush planned 9/11", "bush is too stupid to run the country" ... well, that's great ... no one here disagrees ... or very few do ... so then what? anti-bush is not a movement ...

in the long run, DU's value should be about raising the energy levels and commitment to the "cause" of its membership ... it should be about developing a general consensus around a political ideology ... it should be about educating other DU'ers about how to most effectively educate people to "our" point of view ...

we need to know the issues and we need to know how best to present the issues ... i have no problem with the short-term focus on the horserace ... but, yes, i think perhaps that only the wise old ghosts will remain long after the votes have been counted ...

[Zhade]

47. "anti-bush is not a movement" - really? What about ABB?

If I recall, that was (and to a great many of us, still is) a real movement.

As far as the OP - any site that discusses PNAC, Dominionists, government propaganda about places like Cuba and Venezuela, the coup in Haiti (in real time), Sibel Edmonds, the lies of 9/11, and so on can't possibly by hurting the country in the way that a show like Crossfire, with its mission to steer very clear of such explosive topics, truly damages the public interest.

I think we're doing okay here. It's been rough - this place has been infested by disruptors and party hacks at various times - but very, very rewarding for the research many posters carry out.

Remember, poster Walt Starr broke the story of how b*sh wore a medal he didn't earn. DUers have had a significant impact on groups like Sinclair. There has been a lot of excellent activism here, even if some try to throw us off the trail.

[DemBones DemBones]

51. The ABB movement ends as soon as he's out of office, though

we must remember there are many branches to the Bush family. . .

But we won't have Bush* to kick around anymore, after he's back in Texas. Or, if we continue kicking him, we'll be like the freepers blaming Clinton if Bush* stubs his toe today. So I'd say the poster has a point.

While I'd agree with the praise you heap on DU, I'm wondering if Walt Starr's posts would attract any attention in recent days? I am seeing what seem to be disturbing trends of greatly reduced shelf life for posts, as I posted in a couple of replies to the original poster, patcox2, already.

Most of the "discussion" in this entire thread is an expression of annoyance with patcox2 and allegiance to DU. Better would be to wonder if patcox2 has some special insight, try to understand the ideas he's trying to express, and then respond.

Don't think I mean you should have not said what you did. You brought up valid points, and you weren't the only one saying "No, no, it's okay." I'm just suggesting that to dismiss patcox2's ideas out of hand is to move away from real discussion toward Crossfire style sniping. I've done the same thing myself but am beginning to re-think my actions.

[Zhade]

54. Totally fair. And I agree.

In many ways, DU has been and is becoming an echo chamber, with dissent less and less tolerated. I see that as due to the fear people have of losing this election.

That's why I have self-censored myself a good deal here. Once Kerry is in office, I shall not hold my tongue any longer - and I think I won't be alone.

This place will get crazy no matter who wins the election.

[txindy]

46. I think it may very well depend

on the reaction to the Kerry administration by the wingnuts. If they act the way they are right now AND they are aided by the SCLM, more folks will stay actively involved because they'll feel needed to combat the misinformation and dirty tricks. Just MHO.

As for myself, I know I'm going to need some post-inauguration downtime, but it wouldn't last long and then I'd be back. I suspect that President Kerry is going to need us to "watch his back" just as much as Senator Kerry does right now.

[txindy]

45. This is the Democratic Underground NOT the BiPartisan Underground

'Crossfire' is billed as Left vs. Right. Apples and oranges. If you want to have a political crossfire to participate in, there are plenty of boards to choose from, but this isn't one of them.

[patcox2]

52. Judging from the replies, things look good.

Cool, these were well thought out replies and a real discussion broke out. What I had feared, the possibility that too many DUers actually think that the trading of insults a-la crossfire is meaningful political debate, is not so much true. Some people work that way, but it doesn't appear to be too many. Yay for us.

[Midlodemocrat]

56. I love this site

...living in very conservative Virginia, (Richmond, not northern), I don't have many people with whom to discuss my distate for W. I think this site is funny and informative and I spend a lot of my lunchhour emailing some of the more interesting articles that appear. I never expected it to be a 'debate' site, I just wanted someone to agree with me, (other than my husband)

[Cocoa]

58. we don't work for anyone

we're not tools, we say what we believe, not what we're hired to say.

[H2O Man]

62. Good point.

There aren't commercials here. No one is trying to sell Ann Coulter's newest book.