Do we make our laws based on some moral code?

[serryjw]

I was debating this issues on campus today?

[NYC Liberal]

1. Well, murder.

Essentially, murder is a "moral" issue. Is it MORAL to take a life? Obviously, a huge majority of the country/world says NO. It's still an issue of morality, though.

[0rganism]

9. But the definition of murder will vary from culture to culture

Some nations follow laws declaring it just punishment for a township to kill an adulterous woman.

We would call it murder.

Some would say using deadly force to prevent robbery is murder. Is it?

Clearly, there is some notion of "improper" killing which persists in much of the world, but the idea of what exactly makes a killing improper is far from constant.

[recoveringrepublican]

12. hmm, I thought murder was wrong because it

interferes with our right to life?

[0rganism]

15. The "right to life" is itself a moral position

For far too many people, it is NOT self-evident that all humans are endowed with the right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

[sangh0]

17. No it's not

Right to life is a political position. Moral positions state that an action is "right" or "wrong". "Right to life" is not an action.

It's a "value". Values are not morals. Morals derive from values.

Furthermore, it is self-evident that we are endowed with certain rights, including the ones you mentioned. At least, for most of us.

[Maple]

2. No, based on laws around for thousands of years

Society is based on a combination of pre-Christian justice, values and ideas,..Saxons, Danes, Celts, Angles etc, Iroquois federation ideas, Greek democratic principles, Roman militarism, and pagan ideals of freedom. Plus the Code of Hammurabi, the Edicts of Asoka, the Laws of Manu, Brehon laws and many other justice systems.....they all say pretty much the same thing, and pre-date Christianity or Judaism.

[serryjw]

4. You are over my head........

any links for a simpleton like me?

[Maple]

7. Sure

Edicts of Asoka

http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/ashoka.html

Code of Hammurabi

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM

Laws of Manu

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/india/manu-full.html

Brehon law

http://www.irishclans.com/articles/brehonlaw.html

This is only a small sampling of what actually exists even in these groups...and each country and era had laws...a well-run society is in the interest of everyone. It had nothing to do with any Christian moral code.

You'd think there was anarchy until the Christians showed up!

[Catt03]

3. moral is basically goodness or badness

a firm conviction or your conscience knowing right or wrong.

[serryjw]

5. A slippery slope........

THEY think abortion is wrong!

[0rganism]

11. What THEY think about abortion has no bearing on current caselaw

In order to change the legal framework to match their particular morality, they'll have to do a lot more than has already been done. Even with a rightwing congress, rightwing SCOTUS, and ridiculously rightwing presidency, abortion remains legal. Despite all their picketing, despite all their sound and fury, a solid majority of Americans believes that it is a woman's right to choose pregnancy, and even the most rightwing legislators must answer to their constituents on a regular basis.

If ever there was a direct refutation of the idea that specific moral vision motivates the laws of America, that's an example of it right there.

[Ladyhawk]

6. Yes, I think so.

That's why I think the phrase "legislating morality" is a dead end. Anytime you make a law, you are legislating someone's morality.

As an atheist / aspiring humanist, my moral code is based on what is life-promoting. If something promotes life without degrading it for someone else, it is moral. Then everyone gets to fight about what is life-promoting. :) Those are the laws. Hopefully, you get enlightened laws and not the rigid dogma found in many religions.

[silverpatronus]

13. i disagree.

i think that laws are based on rights. your rights do not extend to infringing upon my rights. your rights end where mine begin. i have the right to live, you don't have the right to kill me. i have the right to own property, you don't have the right to forcibly divest me of that property. and so on.

[0rganism]

8. Not any single moral code, but a mixture of prevailing moralities

There is no exclusivity or permanence. That which was illegal fifty years ago might be commonplace today. Not even the constitution -- the law by which our other laws are to be interpreted and evaluated -- remains the same over time.

Those who claim our laws are rooted in some absolute morality are spitting into the winds of the future.

[serryjw]

10. You and I are the closest

I believe in a living constitution. He was beating the drum against Kerry for his abortion position. I explain it took 50 years to lift the ban on interracial marriage(Alabama-year 2000). How is this moral. Times do change and we have to change with them. How is moral to ask 40 million Americans to live in the 'closet'?

[0rganism]

14. So, does he believe the state should actively enforce pregnancies?

How will we know when a woman has a miscarriage versus an induced abortion? Only through a criminal investigation, as with any potential murder. Shall pregnant women be prevented from traveling to other countries where abortion is legal? Will we note their status at the border and accuse them of 1st degree murder if they return without the fetus? Will anti-choice states have to close their borders with pro-choice states and nations? (cf The Handmaid's Tale)

What the anti-choice people fail to recognize is that the current interpretation is primarily concerned with privacy, i.e., what the state can reasonably regulate without becoming overly intrusive. The anti-choice position is a highly authoritarian one.

Yet at the same time, a lot of these folks would completely flip their shit -- and rightly so -- if you brought up the idea of firearms registration.

They're all for registering fetuses, but not guns, oooh nooo.

[serryjw]

16. Good Idea.......

OB/GYN will required to report to Ashcrack a positive result on an pregnancy test.

Our governement can't read the translations of all the FBI 'chatter'.....I'm sure they have more than enough time to follow up on pregnancies.