A Message to Pro-Lifers: What about abortion for victims of rape?

[Radio-Active]

How can a politician feasibly design an exception for women who have been raped?

If abortion were illegal *except* for rape victims, I suppose anyone could tell the clinic they'd been raped. If someone who really wanted an abortion only had to lie to the clinic about being raped, she would tell that lie. There would be almost no drop in the abortion rate..

On the other hand, if the rape had to be proven in court, the rape victim would have to suffer going through with the pregnancy anyway, or risk a late-term abortion, after the rape had finally been proven in court.

Of course, many women are raped and don't report it, fearing retribution from the rapist. Most rapes go unreported and most rapes are difficult to prove.

In other words, you can't feasibly make an accurate legal abortion exception for rape.

Therefore, there is no middle ground on the rape issue. Pro-lifers have two possible beliefs:

1. Abortion is illegal across the board. Rape victims must further suffer the consequences of the rape, and carry their pregnancies to term.

2. Abortion must be kept legal and available for all women

There is no feasible exception for rape.

Forcing a pregnancy on a rape victim is almost as bad as the rape itself, in my mind. It serves as a daily reminder of the woman's rape, and invokes the emotional trauma suffered.

To conclude, pro-lifers, with any sense of human decency and respect for rape victims, should believe in keeping abortion legal and available to all women, just because of the rape factor.

[jean]

1. another thing. . . if you're staunchly anti-abortion no matter what, at

what point do you draw the line if a woman has to decide if her unborn fetus needs in-utero medical treatment that has a strong chance of causing miscarriage and possible death of the fetus?

Do you think a woman, the mother, has the right to decide life and death issues for her own fetus? If she doesn't who does?

[ClintonTyree]

7. Jeeeeeeebus!

THAT'S who. And of course every sanctimonious moron who thinks they speak for Jebus. They are the only ones that have a right to a woman's body. And don't you forget it!

[jean]

9. thanks for clearing that up .

[ladybugg33]

30. Once again, it's not about abortion. It's about who PAYS for abortion.

This only became the issue that it is when the RW refused to allow the government to pay for abortions for POOR women. They will pay for an early aboriton for well-off women whose doctors will perform "minor surgery to correct female problems" (D&C) through insurance which is subsidized by the government. But God forbid that poor women should have this. They don't even want to pay for birth control for poor women.

[sam sarrha]

2. To answer your question, the Fetus committed no crime. The debate

is about the horrendous suffering resulting from illegal aboutions..

a lot like the incarceration of Marijuana users, you cant stop it, and it is criminal to continue to jail them to subsidize a cruel industry that only protects the paper mills, cotton industry and the petroleum robber Barrons...

and if life is so precious why do they so gleefully abort the lives of Prisoners in custidy.. when death has never been proved to "actually" be a punishment..?? death is only assumed to be a punishment, there is not hard evidence, no whitness to testify it is so. no scientific data. that kinda makes the President of the United States one of the Biggest Mass Murders in the world ..what was it..158..?? i was so dishusted about him executing the retarded, the mentally ill and the disenfranchised i quit following it.

[noonwitch]

12. For me the debate is about women's dominion over their own bodies

The rights of a fetus should never supercede the rights of the woman carrying it.

If the anti abortion side wants to persuade pregnant women not to have abortions, they are free to do so. If they want to run programs to help women who want to deliver healthy babies, but need assistance to do so, then more power to them, as long as they are open about their purpose. That's a good way to express one's opposition to abortion.

I can think of very few situations in which I would have an abortion-mostly either rape, developing a condition that will kill me in the process of bringing the child into the world, or a condition that will result in a deformed or severely handicapped baby who would have no quality of life. I sure as hell wouldn't want a legal system questioning my judgement when I made that decision, and am insulted that people think that they are able to make that decision for me because Jesus told them to.

[Radio-Active]

16. right...

I don't eat meat, and I try to convince others not to do so. However, I don't think it should be illegal to do so.

[no1bodyspecial]

22. True that!

You know...
Why do some want to tell U.S. how to live? What decisions we can make?

[no1bodyspecial]

21. Does the plague continue...

Many people today that the world is over populated...

Many people also believe children are a product of their
environment...

Since we have already decided as a country to tell the
"ignorant" what pleasure is, what fun is, and when
and where to find "it", the "logical"
answer is that the govern men must tell U.S. what we can do
with our bodies, our business', and our schools, where do we
draw the lines?

I believe in responsibility for myself (my decisions, her
decisions, all decisions)
It is also my responsibility to care for all man and wowman
kind alike.
It seems that the argument becomes are people GoOD or bad?
Some have a declensionist view of individuals, generally that
people are innately bad...

This is a load of something...  If u ask me...

Taking away choice, the freedom out of choice, is aligned with
this view.

I see that view as pessimism, a fundamental mistrust in the
human spirit is dead wrong...
All people can make decisions for themselves, no man or wow
man is flawed in that way!

Talk to me...
 

[Beaverhausen]

45. Ebert says the new film "Vera Drake" points out the hypocracy

of the wealthy being able to afford abortions and the poor have to find them where they can - safe and legal or not.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0383694/

[WildClarySage]

3. Most pro-lifers

probably believe deep down that the rape was probably her fault and that the resulting pregnancy might teach her some lessons about not tempting those saintly men who can't help themselves.


and most pro-lifers I've spoken with have said that the fetus resulting from Rape is just as innocent a life as one from consensual sex and shouldn't be aborted either. And once more, the woman involved is treated as nothing more than a rent-a-womb.

[Meryton]

13. what you said

"probably believe deep down that the rape was probably her fault and that the resulting pregnancy might teach her some lessons about not tempting those saintly men who can't help themselves."

some NC politician said several years ago that women raped don't get pregnant - "the juices don't flow". I'm not making this up! but I tried to find the quote recently and couldn't. The Christian and the Muslim fundies appear to have quite a bit in common. They are very out of touch with the mainstream.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

17. Wasn't the guy a former dentist

from one of counties around Greenville, NC, if I remember correctly. He also said that if a woman got pregnant due to rape, then she must have enjoyed it....

I thought it was appalling...

[iverglas]

32. tsk - a periodontist, if you please!

Google offers an abundance of sources, but here's an entertaining one:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/abimenor.htm

April, 1995
During a debate on government funding for abortions, Rep. Henry Aldridge told the North Carolina House Appropriations Committee that rape victims didn't need the fund because "they don't get pregnant." "<P>eople who are raped -- who are truly raped -- the juices don't flow, the body functions don't work," said the 71-year-old periodontist.

March, 1996
North Carolina state Rep. Henry Aldridge made the news in 1995 when he denounced state funding for abortions for rape victims as unnecessary in that a woman who is "truly raped" doesn't get pregnant because "the juices don't flow, the body functions don't work."

In March, 1996, North Carolina House Speaker Harold Brubaker appointed Aldridge co-chair of the Committee on Human Resources, which oversees abortion funding.

Not just a vicious moron, but a vicious moron with power.

[Meryton]

55. thanks

I tried google several months ago, but maybe then there were not enough hits? {Or maybe I am not patient enough?} Thanks for the link either way!! :)

I am trying to educate friends who are either on the fence(?!) or who are voting because they think prince george will keep the troops safe(?!). People here can be so short sighted...:sigh: So any "proof" of how crazy some of these untra-conservative people are is helpful!

[FizzFuzz]

40. that politician you're talking about is the Dr appointed by Smirk

to head the department of Women's and Children's Health. (I appologize if I have the exact name of the agency wrong)

He is a far right fundy who also advised his patients wanting birth control to read their bible. PMS complaints also met the same advice from this Ob-Gyn.

[iverglas]

44. a bouquet of fundie assholes ...

that politician you're talking about is the
Dr appointed by Smirk to head the department
of Women's and Children's Health.
(I appologize if I have the exact name of
the agency wrong)

He is a far right fundy who also advised his
patients wanting birth control to read their bible.
PMS complaints also met the same advice from
this Ob-Gyn.

... and methinks you're thinking of a different guy. And your post shows what legs that story had!

I think you're thinking of a Dr. Hager, who was the subject of much controversy, and considerable misinformation, a while back.

http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/hager.html

That site quotes from the email that was circulating in opposition to Bush's alleged "plan to select Dr. W. David Hager to head up the Food and Drug administration's (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee":

... In the book Dr. Hager wrote with his wife, entitled "Stress and the Woman's Body," he suggests that women who suffer from premenstrual syndrome should seek help from reading the bible and praying. As an editor and contributing author of "The Reproduction Revolution: A Christian Appraisal of Sexuality, Reproductive Technologies and the Family," Dr. Hager appears to have endorsed the medically inaccurate assertion that the common birth control pill is an abortifacient. Hagar's mission is religiously motivated. He has an ardent interest in revoking approval for mifepristone (formerly known as RU-486) as a safe and early form of medical abortion. Hagar recently assisted the Christian Medical Association in a "citizen's petition" which calls upon the FDA to revoke its approval of mifepristone in the name of women's health. ...

(there's more, actual fact) and notes:

On Christmas Eve, 2002, the FDA announced the appointment of 11 physicians to the Advisory Committee for Reproductive Health Drugs. Hager was among the doctors selected, but Dr. Linda C. Giudice, M.D., Ph.D., of Stanford University Medical Center chairs the committee.

[FizzFuzz]

47. thanks for the correction

sheesh there's just too much to keep track of. That's what happens when I trust my swiss-cheese brain!

But the basic point, Smirk selecting fellow wing-nuts to administer issues of women's lives, still stands.

[gmoney]

4. * clearly stated in the debate that he supports option 1...

* is against abortion even in the case of incestual rape where the pregnancy endangers the life of the mother... again, Kerry posed this scenario in the 2nd debate, and * acted like it didn't matter.

Kerry should have asked "would you support an abortion if Willie Horton raped Jenna Bush?"

[Radio-Active]

15. Yes, I noticed this in the debate

but I thought his view was similar to that of his father's - that "abortion should only be legal in cases of rape or incest".

[BOSSHOG]

5. The conservative mind is warped and they have no values

They secure life when it is in the womb but conservatives could not possibly care less about lives on the battlefield. They think the success of their marriage is based on what others do. They think the constitution is a weapon. They believe a woman's business is their business. Fuck them and their valueless lives. They no doubt believe rape does not exist, that women ask for it. Conservatives are sick, vile, american hating, nontroop supporting, dregs on society. Reasoning with them is futile.

[WildClarySage]

8. "They think the constitution is a weapon."

They believe the bible is a weapon, also. Sad, ain't it.

[Iris]

10. actually, many believe it is impossible to conceive through rape,

or are at least willing to spread that fallacy with a straight face.

They must not listen to any international reports where rape is a weapon of war and women are left to care for the progeny of solidier-rapists.

[ClintonTyree]

6. There are no circumstances.................

under which abortion is acceptable to the "right to lifers". Even in the case of rape, they demand that the Mother carry out the pregnancey to full term and deliver the baby. She could then place the child up for adoption and supposedly everyone lives happily ever after in their minds.
It WOULD be TOTALLY acceptable for that same child to be sent to war for no good reason and become cannon fodder for Corporate America though. It would be totally acceptable if that child was raised in abject poverty amid all of the socio-economic pitfalls awating it.
So there you go! Fundie, Right to Life, nutjob logic and hypocrisy demonstrated for all to see!

[Iris]

11. Recently saw a book written by a married fundy woman

who was raped and refused the morning after pill. She not only carried the child to term, but kept him.

If someone WANTS to make that choice, fine, but I don't think others, who many not have the kind of support woman had, should be REQUIRED to make the same decision.

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. I have actually had someone tell me that the baby would be the only "good

thing" to come out of a bad situation. A bad situation. Would this baby not be symbolic of the violation of his/her mother? People will never cease to amaze me.

[no1bodyspecial]

23. I luv you'r kitty too

It surely would be a symbol of that violent and disrespectful act.
In essence a reminder to the wowman of her pain...

[noiretextatique]

18. it's feasible in this sense: suffering

the so-called exemption for rape would require that a woman prove she was raped...police reports, an examination in a hospital, etc. i assume all of that, in addition to being raped, would be sufficient suffering, from the anti-choice perspective, to merit an exemption to their rule.

[meow2u3]

19. Nonviolent Alternative #1: automatic legal termination of rapists'

parental rights, so rape victim can give up her kid for adoption--to a liberal family, of course.

Nonviolent Alternative #2: make the rapist pay child support--without ever getting to see the kid!

In other words, the rapist helped make that kid without the victim's consent, so we should make that bastard pay through the nose! That would be a fitting punishment.

So let's start punishing the rapist and stop advocating that the kid suffer a death sentence for the crimes of his or her father, and quit punishing the woman for the actions of a man. He helped make that kid--without the woman's consent--so the rapist alone should pay--literally and figuratively!

I think forcing an abortion on a rape victim amounts to a double violation. She was already violated once.

[Bridget Burke]

24. Nobody's talking about forcing abortion on a rape victim.

But she needs to retain that right.

[buckettgirl]

27. that is really idealistic!

How can a rapist pay?
How can you even think this to be feasible from any perspective?
It is a well known fact that most women don't report rape.
Sometimes the women know their attacker, but often times they don't.
If rape isn't reported, and then if it is and the women doesn't know who her attacker was, what good does it do?
And even if it was reported, attacker known, then convicted: how would you make him pay when the system can't even make deadbeat dads pay child support?

[iverglas]

31. excuse me while I puke

I know better than to dignify this with my time, but I'm bored.

Yeah, it's "nonviolent" to force a woman to gestate and deliver a thing that appeared inside her body as a result of sexual assault. Yeah.

About as non-violent as murdering abortion clinic workers.


"I think forcing an abortion on a rape victim amounts to a double violation."

It's early days yet, but I don't think you'll be surpassed, so you get this week's prize:



http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/

[lukasahero]

33. "so the rapist alone should pay"

No problem - as soon as the rapist is the one who is brutally invaded, left with the oft debilitating emotional scars and can carry the pregnancy to term, I'm on board with ya. :eyes:

PS - I don't think anyone has ever suggested that rape victims be forced to have abortions. The whole issue is, after all, CHOICE.

[Radio-Active]

38. "forcing an abortion"???

I started this topic, and I am NOT suggesting that abortion should be forced upon a rape victim! Abortion should always be optional.

I don't think the rape victim should be held responsible for the actions of the rapist. She is not responsible for the rape, and she should not be held responsible for the pregnancy. However, that is precisely what pro-lifers are suggesting.

My post covered the futility of making the rapist responsible for his actions.. Rape is hard to prove and rarely reported. It is often not reported because the rape victim wants to move on with her life, or fears for her life.

[Lindacooks]

20. Pro 'lifers' see women as incubators

that's all. They don't consider the women's rights, emotional or physical health, economic status, or ability to carry a child to term or raise a child at all. The only thing that matter to them is that the fetus grows to term and is born.

Of course, after that, the baby is on its own, according to these 'Christian' people.

[porphyrian]

25. I'm adopted.

I can't imagine how fucked up it would be to find out that I was the product of a rape. I doubt anti-abortionists consider this angle at all when trying to control everyone else's behavior.

[951]

26. I'm for...

Abortions of retarded and mentally disabled fetuses and fetuses which are created as a result of incest. No parent should have to look or deal with that.

[buckettgirl]

28. that's all???

what about severly mentally/physically retarded babies born to regular, nonincestual couples who happen to carry a few defective genes?

This is a situation that my husband and I are facing. Do we or do we not try for children, ever?
He had a son that died at 2 months, heart and breathing problems. Cause of death: SIDS
My husband had a niece die at 8 months of age. I don't know what was wrong with her, but from pictures I've seen, she looked like an alien.
My husband has a nephew, who is now 4 years old. He can't talk, he can barely walk. He has had a breathing problems from the beginning. He had to take growth hormones at 1 yr old because he had the bone structure of a 6 month old. He must go through balance training, and has been taught sign language. My brother-in-law has taken our nephew to a geneticist, and they can't figure it out.

I have told my husband that I want children. Giving birth is seemingly cheaper than adoption, unfortunately. However, if we would find out that our baby would have the same problems that seem to run in the family, I will abort. There is no way I could emotionally handle having a baby that I know wouldn't have any quality of life. There is no way my husband could handle having another child die!

[Bunny]

39. How did you manage to reach 900 posts?

In my nearly four years on this board, I have never seen a post as stupid, ignorant, idiotic, indefensible, and just plain asinine as yours. You win the grand prize. Now go crawl back under your rock.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. In practice, I suspect that most "pro-life" women really believe:

"I'm against abortion in all circumstances, except when I am raped."

[iverglas]

36. some fun reading you may have missed!

"I'm against abortion in all circumstances, except when I am raped."

or ...

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/anti-tales.html

"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion"
When the Anti-Choice Choose
By Joyce Arthur

... In the spring of 2000, I collected the following anecdotes directly from abortion doctors and other clinic staff in North America, Australia, and Europe. The stories are presented in the providers' own words, with minor editing for grammar, clarity, and brevity. Names have been omitted to protect privacy.

... "I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

"In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)

And there are more!

[One_Life_To_Give]

34. Sins of the Father?

If for the sake of argument we assume the embryo/fetus has a right to develop into a person. Hence is not allowed to be aborted. How could we argue that this fetus had the right while another did not. When the reason is because ones father was a sexual predator.

By extension then is rape required as a pre-condition for terminating a fetus's right or is it sufficient that the father is a convicted sexual predator and regardless of the conception being concensual or not. The right is terminated since the father is a "Sexual Predator".

And then should we even limit our definition of bad fathers to sexual predators? Isn't it obvious that the fetus's of murderers, muggers and theives should also have their rights terminated? Or at the very least spend their entire lives working in servitude to the person(s) who were wronged by their father.

[iverglas]

35. so I'm still bored

"If for the sake of argument we assume the embryo/fetus has a right to develop into a person. ... blah blah ... ... "

Okay, that was mildly amusing.

Let's see how you do with this one now:

"If for the sake of argument we assume that there are faeries at the bottom of my garden" ...

[One_Life_To_Give]

37. Are they Christian Faeries? n/t

[Radio-Active]

42. I am not making that assumption..

The question of whether to abort is up to the moral compass of the woman herself, whether rape victim or not. My post only adresses the practicality of making abortion illegal, except in cases of rape.

Some anti-abortion activists feel that rape victims should never be held responsible for the actions of their rapists. My argument is that it is impossible to accomodate for this exception in a world where abortion is illegal.

Those who think a rape victim should be forced to further suffer the consequences of her rape are beyond argument.

[One_Life_To_Give]

46. Let me make myself clear

I agree with you. You/we/us cannot make an exception for rape in any law banning abortion. It is just not workable.

Although I would argue that banning abortion in the US would also be unworkable. Fortunatly they still need to overturn Roe V Wade before they can even start. And if they succeed there we still have options to keep the practice available to all who need it. Although someytimes I wonder if the Anti crowd owns stock in Bus Companies.

[noiretextatique]

43. do you have a daughter?

would you want her to be forced to bear the child of a rapist? your mother? your girlfriend? your sister?
would you think that rapists' embryo had the "right" to be born if the woman in question was someone you actually gave a damn about?

[One_Life_To_Give]

48. Confusing reality with theoretical?

In the theoretical case yes the outcome would be that my daughter or wife would have to carry on with the child. To do otherwise would be no different than going up to a ten year old girl and executing her because her daddy was a sexual predator. 10 years or minus nine months being equivalent in the theoretical case.

Fortunatly reality is a different story. You could correctly conclude from the above that I will not support any law banning abortions except in the case of rape and/or incest. Which leaves my either supporting abortion rights or opposing all abortion rights.

Just to be clear I don't beleive I have the right to legislate morality for everyone else. Nor do I beleive the real world consequences of re-imposing a ban on abortion would be good for society.

[Iris]

49. You could make your daughter "carry on with the child" but not y our wife,

assuming your daughter is under 18.

[One_Life_To_Give]

52. Which part of the theoretical case is confusing?

In the theoretical case described abortion would not be an option for any woman under any circumstances. Hence both my wife and daughter, being women, are subject to the theoretical rule and can't have an abortion. Now if that were the case I/We (me and wife/daughter) would need to find a backroom facility to terminate the pregnancy. Preferably before her Dr. found out and absolutely before she started to show, else the cops would be alerted.

When analyzing a theoretical case I assume the laws are as given in the scenario. And people need to react to those laws no matter how stupid a given law/scenario parameter may be. Hence the wife could not pursue a legal abortion, but illegal abortion? These facilities, as horrid as some were, were available before Roe v Wade. It's safe to assume that should the far right manage to ban the procedure, that these clandestine operations will be operating again.

And while I believe in a womans right to choose. Should some miraculous enlightenment come to pass that we/society decide that life begins at conception along with all of it's rights and privileges. How can I argue that all are created equal, except for those who belong to some specific group. Be it because their fathers/mothers are black, gay, or sexual predators. For from the perspective of the embryo that is the only difference between themselves and any other embryo that a woman might choose to terminate.

[noiretextatique]

51. a fetus is not the equivalent of a 10 year old child, not in reality

and not even theoretically. but i agree with you that a ban on abortion is not good public policy.

[One_Life_To_Give]

53. Poor wording on my part

Poor wording on my part
substitute Hypothetical for Theoretical

[america2002]

41. abortion

I believe abortin is wrong except in cases where the mother will be endangered either mentally or physically.

[Iris]

50. thanks for sharing. n/t

[uhhuh]

54. Perfect!!!

Now, who gets to decide if the mother will be endangered mentally or physically by carrying a child to term?

Define "mental or physical" danger.

On edit: ( It's not really perfect, nor do I think that there should have to be a qualification for someone to get a safe, legal medical procedure. I thought this was a perfect opportunity to get a definition from someone with this opinion.)

[kwyjibo]

56. Rape babies are part of God's plan too, you know.

My mom tried to pass this crap off as an excuse, saying that everything that happens to you is part of God's plan, so you should accept the baby as a gift from God.

She didn't consider the idea that if everything that happens in your life is part of God's plan, then so is an abortion if you happen to have one.

[DjTj]

57. The answer to your question:

I'm not pro-life, but I am in law school...

The woman would get the abortion, but she could on trial afterwards. If it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that she was NOT raped, she would go to jail for an illegal abortion.

[scarletlib]

58. I know someone who was raped when she was a young

teenager. She was raped by her stepfather. When she told her Mom she wasn't believed. Maybe by the time she told her mom the time was past for a safe abortion. I don't know.

What I do know is the effect on her life. She did have the baby. She has problems relating sexually and having trust in men. The boy child has problems. Maybe caused by inadequate nutrition in the early months in utero. I don't know. She has a bond with the child but it is edgy. I feel sorry for the kid. It's not his fault but it was not hers either.

Both have suffered and continue to suffer. If she had been my daughter I would have let her get an abortion.

On a political level I don't think women can be truly equal to men unless we have the same control over our bodies that men do. That's why I support a right to choose.

As the right to lifers see things now the fetus seems to supercede and be superior to the woman whose body it is in. In effect they reduce women to mere containers whose rights are abrogated in service to pregnancy. The makes women mere breeders, cattle if you will, whose existance as fully realized humans with the full panoply of human rights are nullified by the fact of pregnancy. Any semblance of full equality with the other half of the human race goes out the door when a female cannot fully control her body and her destiny as men do.