Fascism Rant

[bryant69]

We seem to be getting posts every day on how America is becoming a fascist country. Now as an intellectual discussion I got no problem discussion fascist tendancies that may exist in our country. I might disagree with the extent to which those traits are dominent (and probably would, since I think we aren't a fascist nation yet), but that would be an interesting intellectual discussion to have.

But it's clear from the tone of many of those who are arguing that America is fascist that this is something we should all be very concerned about. Fair enough--but where they let down the side is that they don't usually want to talk about what the next step is. OK we are a fascist nation; what should we do about it? Maybe I'm the wrong person to be asking this question since I don't really believe we are a fascist nation; but still.

The other thing I dislike about having passionate discussions on whether or not we are fascist is that it does paint us into a corner. If we already are a fascist country, what's the point to carrying on? To working to get Kerry elected? Will Kerry even be allowed to take office if he wins? Is the game rigged? If one accepts America as a fascist state, it's hard to have much hope for the future of America. One should, perhaps, be looking for another nation to live in for a while.

In other words, I don't see how one argues that America is a fascist nation without there being a whiff of defeatism around the argument.

Only, these are the last two weeks of a political campaign. You may be right, and it may be pointless, but you may be wrong, and it might be essential to martial all our energies and our enthusiasm towards getting Senator Kerry in the White House and President Bush out of the White House.

Anyway something to think about.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[CrispyQ]

1. I agree we are not there yet, but on the fast track.

The first thing we need to do is revoke corporate personhood. This would alleviate so many ills! Do I think it will ever happen? No.

Given that we can't make the first thing happen, then we need to take back the media.

[Union Thug]

2. If we accept the corporate/state interest definition, we are

very close to a fascist country.

What to do? I believe that we need massive labor and worker unions to confront corporate domination. The working people of this country have the power to lay waste to corporate domination of society.

The challenge is in learning to organize and maintaining that organization. The first step is dealing with the media, the voicebox and echochamber of corporate america, and unfortunately, a major culture shaper.

I think we need to seriously consider the following concept (not my own): The separation of property and speech.

[Tyler Durden]

3. This is the point: TIME.

I'm sorry if you think I'm one of your "defeatists," but how long do you think the United States will continue to exist as it is: King of the hill, big kid on the block, even if you will, last bastion of republicanism (note the small "r").

There is no "country" on earth that has lasted largely unevolved as long as we have, with the exception of the Egyptian dynasties and the Russian Autocracy. Note though that neither of these items exist anymore either. And you can't really count Imperial Rome as the only part that stayed the same was the existence of the city of Rome itself.

Everything is born, lives a time, then dies. Do you expect that a flag of the United States will fly over colonies on Mars, the moons of Saturn, or God willing, Alpha Centauri? Fat Chance.

This is not a bad thing, it's what IS.

Kerry being elected does one thing: it buys us TIME. Kerry will NOT appoint Charles Pickering et al to the Supreme Court, and he won't make Clarence Thomas Chief Justice for starters. And in my not so humble opinion, That is almost enough.

(added the NOT on edit. whew.)

[MGKrebs]

6. OK fine. Evolution. But can we steer it?

Is the tide beyond our control? Aren't there forces pushing fascist-like tendancies? Could there not be a resistance force? What should be the goal? Save democracy? Is there some other realistic goal?

[Tyler Durden]

7. the GOAL:

World Government: Egalitarian, Parliamentarian, and PEACEFUL, with an independent enforcement/police not beholden to region or country.

Think "KLAATU BARADA NIKTO" if you will.

And sure you can steer it that way, but you have to WANT TO. Nobody in power WANTS TO.

One other thing: no offense but in my not so humble opinion, you can count the "Patriots" in the government on one hand, while the "Nationalists" compose an army that would make SAURON jealous.

[bryant69]

14. Pies in the Skies

I mean a world government that is egalitarian and parliamentarian and PEACEFUL would be nice. So would terraforming Mars. I don't see either happening in our live times or even our great grandchildren's life times.

And it's not just us who would fight it. One of the few rational demands of Islamic terrorists is that they be left alone to practice Islam according to how they believe it--why would they welcome this change?

Bryant

[Tyler Durden]

25. I never said it would happen.

Us failed Idealists still have Goals. We're just cynical about their success.

Personally, I think humans will still be having arguments on the "...how many angels can dance/sit/shit on the head of a pin..." level while that big mucking rock cruises in from the asteroid belt and SLAMS into us. We aren't Neo or King Arthur: we aren't "The ONE."

I just hope that the rats, or the crows, or whatever takes our ecological niche after the dust clears does a better job than we did.

[info being]

11. We have to see ourselves as human beings, not Americans

It is unhealthy and not natural to identify so strongly with a State...which is, after all, only a man-made creation designed to serve specific interests.

[Cerridwen]

4. In any fascist regime, there have been resistance fighters

Those would be the people who recognizing what is going on, fight in any way possible to expose and remove the ones who would impose fascism.

I think seeing what is going on, knowing that the fight may be rigged against change, hollering that fact from mountain top to mountain top, is part of a return to democracy and a republic.

Not defeatism so much as a call to arms; using more military vernacular.

[Eloriel]

18. Absolutely -- NO defeatism

It's way counterproductive.

The importance of recognizing the fascist tilt (or perhaps tumble) is to take steps NOW to stop it.

One of the most important steps is inherent in talking about it, spreading understanding and information. Fascism is NEVER spoken about in this country except in dusty old history classes or in reference to "Nazis," also usually in the historical sense.

Meanwhile, its (theoretical) polar opposite, communism, has been demonized for most of the last century. We have periodic "communist hunts" in the U.S., but never have we gone after fascists.

Why? Because capitalism and capitalists seem to favor fascism. Hitler was widely supported in the U.S., including by Bush's grandfather (Prescott) and the Harrimans, the Rockefellers, Hearst, and many others. Too, we imported a LOT of hyper-anti-communist (pro-fascist) Nazis directly into our government and other institutions, inluding the Republican Party, immediately after WW2.

Obviously, another important step is to CONFRONT it, and demand changes be made.

Beyond that, I don't know what to do. We have a perfect roadmap to what's happening now in the U.S. in Germany's history during the 1930s. The parallels are unmistakable and frightening. Unfortunately, that roadmap ends somewhat disastrously -- IOW, the map ends without showing us how to defeat fascism INTERNALLY. But it could safely be speculated, I believe, that if Germans had understood early on where things were going in their political life, there'd have been far more confrontation and resistance to things as they unfolded.

But in general, I think Harry Belafonte had it right, in a TV interview I saw with him several years ago (I neglected to jot down when and what show, but I did capture his whole answer to how to survive political repression):

Do not submit. It is extremely critical that repression be met head on and that it be resisted with every fiber in our being. There is absolutely no compromise that can be made with it. As a matter of fact, compromise is what oppression feeds on. Without compromise it would be defeated.

Unfortunately, as the reality and pragmatism of Belafonte's words sink in, it becomes very clear that our Vichy Dems (and Congress is FULL of them, with far too few exceptions), are making THE cardinal error: compromising with fascist interests. And that's one place we'd better start as well: insisting that our elected leaders understand what's going on and either grow spines or get un-elected.

Some of us might need to consider running for office ourselves, as Howard Dean has strongly encouraged, even helping finance upstarts' campaigns (1000 or more, at all levels including Federal!).

But the LAST thing you do is adopt even a "whiff" of defeatism. THAT would only ensure fascism's victory.

[Mike Niendorff]

24. I'll second every word Eloriel just said.

Couldn't put it better if I tried.


MDN

[kayell]

29. The only possible thing I could add to that would be that at least Kerry

is aware of the problem - as shown by the copy of "It Can't Happen Here" on his desk.

[Toby109]

5. Wouldn't it be funny if

the world has to unite to defeat the new Hitler and the good guys turn out to be China?

[Tyler Durden]

8. Not too funny really.

Remember that "Freedom Fighters" are usually those with least to lose and most to gain.

Sounds like China to me.

[bryant69]

9. DO you know much about Chinese Communism?

[TahitiNut]

12. You mean China, Inc.?

"Fascism" isn't an ideology ... it doesn't engage in intellectually honest discussion regarding the "features" or "advantages" of fascism. This is predominnatly due to one of the core beliefs of fascists: the people are an almost mindless herd. THere is, therefore, no interest in honest public discourse. It's an "ideology" of narrow power and privelege - where 'the people' are merely a labor resource or cannon fodder. It's an attitude of "the public are the servants."

China is there. Any semblance of 'communism' in China is mere facade or window dressing.

[Toby109]

31. What's Communism have to do with it?

What I meant was; if bush regains the White House and the neocons continue in their quest to control the world's remaining oil supplies by invasion and occupation, what force on Earth is still capable of stopping them militarily?

[info being]

10. Great points

In response, I'd say that, if the nation is fascist (and I do believe that to be the case) then Kerry can only get elected and maitain power so long as he supports the fascist agenda. One could easily argue that both Repubs and Dems are fascist (though there are certainly a few anti-fascist Dems, they don't yet control the party).

Getting Kerry elected would be nice, but it is just one tiny step that needs to be made. Until we can teach critical thinking in this country, until the majority of the population supports peace as a goal, and until we can get ourselves a government that represents us as opposed to corporate interests, America will continue to be a fascist country.

[coalition_unwilling]

13. We need a good, solid working definition of "fascism"

before we can then determine whether the U.S. fits that definition.

So I'm wondering if any DU'er out there could provide a good, solid working definition we can all agree on?

[info being]

16. Always refer to Wikipedia for the current commonly accepted definintion...

of any word. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Definition:
----------------------
The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that

* exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual,
* uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
* engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and
* espouses nationalism and sometimes racism (ethnic nationalism).
----------------------

There's much more there, and if you don't agree with the definition you can change it. And if somebody doesn't agree with your changes you can change it again.

[coalition_unwilling]

17. My father and I have been arguing about this for some time

I say we're actually right on the edge of fascism, if not over it.

My father says, 'No, BushCo just worship at the foot of Mammon but they're not fascists.'

(Humorous side-note: after watching the debates, I'd have to say that Bush\Cheney are too stupid to be convincing fascists.)

Liked your post earlier about being 'citizens of the world'.

[Eloriel]

19. Here's more info on what is fascism --

"fas-cism (fbsh'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm


Keywords: Fascism
(with list of characteristics)
http://keywords.oxus.net/archives/000026.html

Fascism Anyone? by Laurence W. Britt
http://secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

Friendly Fascism (Excerpts etc from Bertram Gross's book)
http://a4a.mahost.org/gross.html

What Is Fascism
(This one is quite good and incl. two-tiered legal system as well as many other hallmarks, and Dr. Lawrence Britt's list, and additional links)
http://www.couplescompany.com/FEATURES/Politics/Structure3.htm

Superpower Democracy (another must read)
http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/2003_07_01_gd.html#105880160504381723


IS AMERICA BECOMING FASCIST?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2159330
This article: IS AMERICA BECOMING FASCIST? http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/fascism.htm


Mussolini in his own words.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2413173

1944 article: American fascism (April 1944 article in NYTimes -- also see 1940s section for the complete article)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=212387

The F Scale
(Measures one's authoritarian personality profile, which makes one receptive to fascism, based on research done after WW2)
http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm
link posted here: He's Acting Like Nixon in the Final DaysHas Bush Gone Over the Edge? (has some good links re fascist personality, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1725171

Bethune Institute Anti-Fascist Studies
http://bethuneinstitute.org/index2.html

The Spectre of Friendly Fascism by Bertrand Gross
(book excerpt)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Specter_FriendlyFascism_FF.html

Umberto Eco on Fascism
http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html

[Eloriel]

20. Here are a collection of DU links

Most of them fairly informative:

George W Bush is a NAZI Stooge
(thread includes a number of good links and related discussions)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2418676#2418764


What is the difference??? bush-Iraq; Hitler-Poland.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2406622&mesg_id=2406622&page=

Wanna know where today's Fascism came from? Look here 8/29/04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2282969#2283235

Bush,Machiavelli,StraussIF NO EXTERNAL THREAT EXISTS ONE MUST BE INVENTED
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2255230

Fascism, Nazism, & Eugenics supported by Oil Barons of America &
esp. the Rockefeller Foundation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2248507


It's Time for Another Bush/Nazi Thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853#199887
(most links already harvested)

1944: American fascism (re 1944 article)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=212387


Enough with the "_______ is worse than/ as bad as Hitler"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1730317


How Reagan Got Elected in the first place -- My little tribute
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1773894#1776990 (See Octafish post #33 for links to some books on Amazon)


Is U.S. REALLY like Germany in the 30's? (elementaryPenguin)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1772363#1772645
See also: Is US like Germany of the '30s? (Kayell)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1777406#1780958

Are we on the road to becoming Nazi's?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1784358#

Second Circuit Judge Tells It Like It Is: Bush Is Illegitimate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1833026
re this news story: http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getmailfiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2004/06/21&ID=Ar00101

Comparing Bush to Hitler hurts our credibility
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1873137#1873330

The Fascism is getting harder to hide. And harder to fight.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=750446

"American fascists" among us
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2026031

Joe Stanton: "Bush's Operation Clean Sweep: World War IV in 2004?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=808293

Fascism?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1948137

Way, Way Past Time To Label BushCo As Nazis
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1966911#1967150

I'm crying (Elf sees the warning signs)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1791526#1791609

Is America Becoming Fascist?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2159330

What Would Machiavelli Do? The Big Lie Lives On ...Thom Hartmann
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2276024

Do you understand that a Kerry win is only the beginning of the fight?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2370107#2370221

When Fascism Comes to America
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x74736

[Eloriel]

21. Another collection of links for articles WARNING us

MUST READ: They Thought They Were Free
http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

March 16, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

The NASCAR Nazi
Bush is creating an un-American America
http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/04/38/lost-washburn.php

It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread (Aug. 03)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853#199877

Nazification of America Phase 3
http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

The Reichstag Fire and 9/11; Pretexts for Dictatorship and the Fourth Reich
Includes: Parallels between the Third Reich and the Bush Regime; 9/11 and the Reichstag Fire; What was the Reichstag Fire; Nazis in America; Poland 1939, Iraq 2003 http://www.oilempire.us/reichstag-fire.html

The Rise of the Fourth Reich
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/reich.html

Bush's 9/11 Reichstag Fire by Harvey Wasserman
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0913-03.htm

20 Comparisons by Barrie Zwicker
http://www.deceptiondollar.com/news/BloorRemarks911-03.htm

The Bush Plan for America: The Rise of an American National Security State
By Jennifer Van Bergen, 14 December 2003 http://www.ftaaimc.org/en/2003/12/3232.shtml

Bush is *not* Hitler!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1868574

America, We Have a Problem
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i4dodd.htm

Fascism and America Today
by Aldo Vidali
http://www.apj.us/20010312fascism.html

This is the Fight of Our Lives by Bill Moyers
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0616-09.htm

I'm scared - I've got a mail, sounds real!!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1822699#1822720

E-book - It Can't Happen Here b y Sinclair Lewis
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/l/lewis/sinclair/happen/
Also read: The Iron Heel by Jack London and
"Der Fuhrer" by Konrad Heiden and "The Plague" by Camus
discussed here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2344349#2344364

July 19, 2004
The Ghost of Vice President Wallace Warns: "It Can Happen Here"
by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0719-15.htm


Edited to add: I defy anyone who isn't convinced to plow through most of these links and come back and try to assert there's no problem here.

[Mike Niendorff]

27. a few more good links :

Rush, NewSpeak and Fascism
by Dave Neiwert

pdf version : http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/Rush%20Newspeak%20%20Fascism.pdf
(for html version, see link in left-hand column of Dave's blog, referenced below)


The Rise of Pseudo-Fascism (4-part series)
by Dave Neiwert

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com (see today's blog-entry for links to all 4 parts of this essay)


MDN

[AntiFascist]

15. I wouldn't be fighting so hard if I didn't think there was still hope....

I would hate for us to lose sight of many of the founding father's principles.

[porphyrian]

22. I might have some answers.

I think part of the problem is in the definintion of fascism, and another part is in defining who is fascist. I believe the former has been addressed on a number of occasions (the 14 defining elements of fascism), and I think that there have been some attempts to discuss what to do about it, however much of it hangs on the outcome of this election. To address my latter suggestion, some people say "we" are fascist and mean our country is fascist. Others mean that our government is fascist. Still others mean that we are on the road to fascism, which I think is apparent. I don't think anyone intends to imply that every American is fascist, though there probably are some radicals who believe this (maybe we are indirectly fascist by not rising up to smite the fascist take-over, or something). History will tell, assuming we win.

As for the defeatist talk, it's not limited to fascism. We've got environment doomsayers, harbingers of genetically modified apocalypse, and criers of nuclear holocaust all in our little tent, and while they can sometimes be irritating, they are just as important as you and I. Personally, the ones that piss me off are the ones who can't laugh at themselves, but I will vote right beside them when the time comes. Hopefully, we won't have to see much more action than some rallies and marches. After all, we all want the system to work. It's just so easy to lose hope every once in a while.

[ComerPerro]

23. Two cents, two points

One, I don't think people are saying that we have already become a nation of fascism, but rather I think they fear we are racing towards fascism. I would certainly agree.

Two, I think you hit the nail on the head. The reason these posts appear almost daily and with such urgency is the exact piece you mentioned: I don't know what to do next. What do we do if Bush ushers in a fascist dictatorship? How do we fight it? Can we fight it?

I don't know, honestly. And the idea of it terrifies me.

[Eloriel]

28. Well, unterrify yourself

You don't have to have all the answers, you just have to be willing to be part of the solution.

Speaking as one who has "been there, done that" re the terrifying thoughts. One of the things that shook me out of it was realizing that in MY fear of Bush and Fascism, I was really no different than those who have allowed themselves to be whipped up into fear of more terrorist attacks. Fear is fear. Does NOTHING positive for you as an emotion after it gets your attention. And it HELPS them. I am NOT going to live my life in fear, and I am NOT going to give them the gift of my fear. Period.

We'll handle whatever comes. If Kerry wins, we still have our work cut out for us because there are a lot of Washington Dems who need to either get a clue or be replaced. If Bush wins (by which I mean successfully steals it again), we have just as much work to do, only of a different and probably more urgent character.

[coalition_unwilling]

32. Resistance to fascism in Hitler's Germany took many forms . . .

There was a mass exodus of public intellectuals who carried on the resistance from self-imposed exile.

There was also a burgeoning domestic resistance, best typified by the White Rose movement in Munich. These heroic University students were brutally executed by the Nazis.

The point is that there are many ways to resist, either domestically or from abroad. What's important is to be clear about what exactly you are resisting and to think both strategically and tactically.

[Selatius]

26. Proto-fascism is more like it

I'm not going to say that we live in a "mature fascist regime" because we do not. The US has not become Fortress America, and it is not a police state by any stretch of the imagination, especially when compared to the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany in the 1930s and 1940s.

Rather, you would be more accurate if you argued that the US is presently exhibiting proto-fascist or pseudo-fascist tendencies. Extreme nationalism, the merging of state and corporate power, state or corporate ownership of the media, political oppression, the total suspension of civil liberties, etc. are all things seen in mature fascist regimes.

In the US, the state does not own the news media, and corporations do not have 100% control of it either. If that were the case, chances are Democratic Underground as well as other websites would not even exist. Corporations do have immense and near unbreakable influence on the news media, but it is not completely, totally unchallenged either.

The US still has a system of elections where there is still at least some opportunity to oust the ruling party. This is not seen in mature incarnations of fascism, at least past incarnations we can look towards. In Germany, the nazis outlawed all other political parties and had them liquidated. This is not the case in the US.

The USA Patriot Act raises serious questions about the state of civil liberties in the US; however, this piece of legislation is wholly mild compared to the legislation passed after the Reichstag fire in Germany. The Patriot Act is corrosive if one could characterize it as that, but it is nowhere near as much as those passed by the 3rd Reich. They eviscerated, shredded civil liberties across the board by 1939.

Another point of contention is the exact relationship the US government has with corporations. While one could easily argue that corporations, as well as other special interests, have a heavy influence over the government, it is not exactly a complete merger of state and corporate power. Rather, it is one influencing the other. It's less overt and less direct and thus escapes the well-known paradigm of past fascist regimes where the state and the corporation worked openly together and thus was easily identified.

The thing that worries me about the US is that I fear corporations and the industrialists here have done better than their counterparts in previous fascist regimes. Rather than grab power in an overt, rapid manner, they have resorted to utilizing "creeping normalcy" where small changes are made at a slow, deliberate pace so as not to alarm the people. One could argue Hitler did the same, but no one would argue that those in the US who aim for power and control are moving as fast as he and others with him did. No, they're moving even more slowly. The corporatists in Germany moved over a period of years. The ones here have been moving more slowly over the last several decades.

Another thing that worries me is I fear that they are not seeking the total merging of state and corporate power as previous groups had done. I think they realize doing so today at any speed would be too blatent, noticeable. If the goal is to get as close to power as possible without alarming the people, especially in a post WW2 world, then wouldn't the best avenue simply be to continue to influence the government the way they are doing it now instead of making a total grab for the reigns of power?

Wouldn't it make more sense to influence government and the news media instead of directly controlling them so that one could argue that the government and the media and thus the rest of the country is still "technically" free? Wouldn't maintaining the illusion of freedom (i.e. giving people a choice even if it is simply a choice over two different ways to the same conclusion) be more efficient than trying to snuff it out as Hitler did and then spend time and effort afterward putting down the people and keeping them down?

Doesn't it make more sense to trick people into thinking they have freedom than to take it away overtly, forcefully if the goal is to exert the least amount of force possible?

[Eloriel]

30. You argued yourself out of it, then argued yourself right back into

it without quite tipping to what you yourself are saying.

EVERY instance of fascism has had its own flavor. Of COURSE an American Fascism would be unique. And you are abolutely 100% dead on:

Doesn't it make more sense to trick people into thinking they have freedom than to take it away overtly, forcefully if the goal is to exert the least amount of force possible?

With the election fraud (including massive and coordinated vote suppression, riggable electronic voting machines, and all manner of other tricks and techniques), we are quite posisbly left with the illusion of democracy. And that would serve their purposes very well, wouldn't it?

Who says it has to be a real, live, Hitleresque dictatorship? Wouldn't one in fact but not in appearance be just as effective? Wouldn't it still be fascism -- a uniquely AMERICAN fascism?

Don't hold to your absolutes, as outlined in the first half of your post. "Close enough" to not alarm too many Americans while accomplishing what they want to anyway will work just fine.

[catbert836]

33. Go here:

http://www.knife-party.net/flash/barry.html
Project for the New American Century