Know Your Fundamentalists: look at voting bloc that may give Bush 4 more

[seemslikeadream]

Are they: a) moral b) God-centered c) caring d) intolerant e) anti-intellectual f) homophobic g) all of the above? Next: A look at the voting bloc that may give George Bush another four years in the White House.

by Rob Weir - October 21, 2004

Also see cover art

GETTY IMAGES PHOTO

Commander-in-Chief Bush has mastered the language that reassures fundamentalists.





You see them at gay pride marches carrying signs trumpeting God's displeasure with homosexuals. They are a staple at anti-choice rallies with their grisly placards of aborted fetuses. They show up at local theaters to denounce films like The Last Temptation of Christ or Hail Mary. They appear on the evening news demanding that public schools teach "creationism" in science classes.
They are fundamentalist Christians.

Local filmmaker and scholar James Ault, Jr. spent three years studying a fundamentalist congregation in Worcester and thinks it's time that humanists get off their high horses and try to understand fundamentalists. It's hard to refute Ault's point that fundamentalists are a large and potent force in American social and political life.

Fundamentalist Christians have the potential to play a huge role in the upcoming presidential election. According to recent polls, evangelicals support George Bush over John Kerry by better than a two-to-one margin. Overall, 55 percent of evangelical Christians identify themselves as Republicans; just 25 percent claim to be Democrats.

Does this matter? You'd better believe it does. Those calling themselves "born again" make up more than one quarter of all registered voters. Kerry commands a 50 percent to 34 percent lead among those who rarely or never attend church, but that's not a very big voting bloc. Neither are African-Americans or Hispanics, groups that could presumably offset Kerry's numbers among evangelical Christians. By contrast, African-Americans and Hispanics combined amount to only 17 percent.

more
http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/News/content?oid=oid:86467

[MoJoWorkin]

1. d) e) and f) are my answers

[info being]

8. Mine too

[Az_lefty]

2. a, b & c.

the fundies I know really aren't bad people, they just see something in the shrub that really isn't there.

[MoJoWorkin]

3. sorry toiletbush

but good, caring people don't have a blood-lust to kill, like these do. Do NOT excuse them for putting blinders on, and only seeing the "killing of the unborn" as wrong.
I see the mutilated faces of those poor innocent kids in Iraq in my mind everyday. HOW CAN THEY NOT?

[phantom power]

6. tribal psychology

They are genuinely good, caring people for the other members of their tribe. And they have no problem waging war against anybody who's not in their tribe.

I think we need to fight this aspect of human nature, but it is a part of each of us.

[wrate]

20. Remember that ideology determines world vision. n/t

[leesa]

24. Sorry, but you cannot be good and moral and support the

evil Bush has wrought. They are fearful maybe but they are not moral if they can support someone who lies to start a war against someone who did nothing to anyone outside their borders.

You cannot be moral and support the murder of 30,000+ people who did NOTHING to anyone.

[bagnana]

4. That is a depressing statistic

25% of the people in this country do not believe in reason and science.

[phantom power]

5. That was a *very* interesting interview

Particularly, the insight about religeon as an oral tradition. Explains a heck of a lot about selective reading of the Bible. They aren't really reading it at all.

The other impression I came away with is how tribally based it all is. Oral tradition, extended family, appeal to elders, fear of outsiders. It's all there.

Reliance on the 'tribal' safety net. Explains a lot about the willingness to dismantle the government. I imagine they see a government safety net as redundant, at best.

It's a manifestation of the fact that we evolved as tribal animals, and we just don't have the psychological make-up to intuitively cope with societies much larger than a couple dozen people. Forget 6.6 billion.

[trogdor]

14. I think we're doing pretty good as city-dwellers.

We wouldn't have reached 6.6B souls otherwise.

The Bible, IMO, reflects the times in which its various parts were written. Had someone churned it out on a word-processor today, it would have come out a LOT differently.

God, for example, morphs from the jealous, angry God of the Old Testament to the more loving and forgiving father figure of the New Testament. What was considered "the entire world" has also changed quite a bit, from the immediate area within a few weeks' walk of Jerusalem in the earlier books to the Roman Empire nearer the end.

Leviticus was most likely written to protect the Hebrews from the sort of health problems that resulted from poor hygiene and sanitation. Reading through it, I would imagine those who followed Leviticus to the letter stood a better chance of avoiding disease than otherwise in a day when medicine as we know it simply did not exist. Nowadays, you wouldn't have to put stuff like this in a holy manuscript as if God himself wrote it.

I also doubt there would be any need to put as much historical content in a latter-day Bible than exists in the Old Testament. I suppose putting it in your religious text would help guarantee that the history survives for thousands of years, but we now have better means of recording history that didn't exist back then.

All together, if I were to write a Bible from scratch, it would run about 130 pages, tops, and it would contain language that allows some flexibility in its interpretation, similar to how the U.S. Constitution works, so that we don't have constant battles royal over stuff that really should have anything to do with one's own faith, such as whether the world is round or flat (for example), or whether people of different faiths are "saved."

[phantom power]

19. In a way, yes. Considering how fast we moved from

small tribes to gigantic teaming cities, we're doing rather well. But you can trace most of our global problems to our tribal impulses. Understanding the interactions, and impact, of 6.5 billion individuals is just not intuitive for us. The only way to get our heads around it is math. And most people aren't very good, or very interested, in math.

As far as writing a new bible, that would be a very interesting exercise, but you're still thinking in terms of written word. The author's message seems to be that the actual written content of the bible is peripheral to their lifestyle. It's about their sermons, their daily conversations, etc.

[leftofthedial]

7. ya gotta love primates, eh?

tribal bloodlust

[sattahipdeep]

9. If they vote with the party

It's a big if....they still will be looking at how they r
doing under buch when they vote....u can't ignore it if you don't have a
job an your family is hurting.

Robertson: If Bush 'touches'
Jerusalem, we'll form 3rd party
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/484861.html
By Daphna Berman
....
"I see the rise of Islam to destroy Israel and take the land
from the Jews and give East Jerusalem to Authority Chairman] Yasser Arafat. I see that as Satan's
plan to prevent the return of Jesus Christ the Lord," said
Robertson, a Christian broadcaster.

....
In two Jerusalem appearances, Robertson Sunday
praised Israel as part of God's plan and criticized Arab
countries and some Muslims, saying their hopes to
include Israeli-controlled land in a Palestinian state are
part of "Satan's plan."

Posted 1/2/2004 4:05 PM

Robertson: God says it's Bush in a
'blowout' in November

NORFOLK, Va. (AP) Religious
broadcaster Pat Robertson said Friday he believes God has told him
President Bush will be re-elected in a "blowout" in November.

....
"The Lord has just blessed him," Robertson said of Bush. "I mean, he
could make terrible mistakes and comes out of it. It doesn't make any
difference what he does, good or bad, God picks him up because he's
a man of prayer and God's blessing him."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-01-02-god-bush_x.htm

what's he gonna say........when........everyone that is a new
register votes for kerry.......an buch loses....pat robertson........the one who is
hearing from "God"

[seemslikeadream]

21. Do you know these people?

They are the seven highest ranking Republican Senators in the U.S. Senate.

Every one of them received a scorecard of 100% from Christian Coalition.

That means they voted with Christian Coalition 100% of the time.

How were people representing such an extreme ideological point of view elected to the top positions in the Republican Party?

The leaders of the Republican Party were chosen by their colleagues.


Christianization of the Republican Party: In Their Own Words
Christianization of the Republican Party, an article from the The Christian Statesman, claims,

"Once dismissed as a small regional movement, Christian conservatives have become a staple of politics nearly everywhere. Christian conservatives now hold a majority of seats in 36% of all Republican Party state committees (or 18 of 50 states), plus large minorities in 81% of the rest, double their strength from a decade before."

"The twin surges of Christians into GOP ranks in the early 1980s and early 1990s have begun to bear fruit, as naﶥ, idealistic recruits have transformed into savvy operatives and leaders, building organizations, winning leadership positions, fighting onto platform committees, and electing many of their own to public office.

The Christian Statesman is a publication of the National Reform Association. Who is the National Reform Association?

"The mission of the National Reform Association is to maintain and promote in our national life the Christian principles of civil government, which include, but are not limited to, the following:

"Jesus Christ is Lord in all aspects of life, including civil government.

"Jesus Christ is, therefore, the Ruler of Nations, and should be explicitly confessed as such in any constitutional documents. The civil ruler is to be a servant of God, he derives his authority from God and he is duty-bound to govern according to the expressed will of God.

"The civil government of our nation, its laws, institutions, and practices must therefore be conformed to the principles of Biblical law as revealed in the Old and New Testaments."

more
http://www.theocracywatch.org

Wisdom, truth, patience. The Mescalero believe that Owl carries the souls of the recently deceased, a death messenger. Owl is the totem of clairvoyants and mystics.


"Paths to Truth"

Belief and Worship in Native North America (1981)
Hultkrantz, Ake
299.7 H91b
Black Elk Speaks : Being the Life Story of a Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux (1995)
Black Elk
299.7 B62b
Dictionary of Native American Mythology (1992)
Gill, Sam D.
299.7203 G47d
Encyclopedia of Native American Religions: An Introduction (2000)
Hirschfelder, Arlene B.
299.703 H66e1
Gyaehlingaay: Traditions, Tales, and Images of the Kaigani Haida (1991)
Eastman, Carol M.
398.2097 E13g
He Who Hunted Birds in his Father's Village: The Dimensions of a Haida Myth (1979)
Snyder, Gary
299.7 S67h
Indian Healing: Shamanic Ceremonialism in the Pacific Northwest Today (1982)
Jilek, Wolfgang
299.75 J61i
Make Prayers to the Raven: A Koyukon View of the Northern Forest (1983)
Nelson, Richard K.
304.2 N42m
Peoples of the Sea Wind: The Native Americans of the Pacific Coast (1977)
Brown, Vinson
398.2097 B88p
Religion in Native North America (1990)
299.7 R382v
Shamanism in Western North America: A Study in Cultural Relationships (1975)
Park, Willard Zerbe
299.7 P23s
Shattered Images: Dialogues and Meditations on Tsimshian Narratives (1987)
Cove, John J.
299.72 C87s
The Dream Seekers: Native American Visionary Traditions of the Great Plains (1994)
Irwin, Lee
299.7 I72d
The Mythology of the Bella Coola Indian (1975)
Boas, Franz
299.7 B66m
The Raven Steals the Light (1984)
Reid, William
398.2097 R35
The Religions of the American Indians (1979)
Hultkrantz, Ake
299.7 H91a
Teachings from the American Earth: Indian Religion and Philosophy (1975)
299.7 T25t
Turtle Island Alphabet: A Lexicon of Native American Symbols and Culture (1992)
Hausman, Gerald
299.7 H37t
Wisdom's Daughters : Conversations with Women Elders of Native America (1993)
Wall, Steve
299.7 W18w

http://www.vpl.ca/branches/LibrarySquare/soc/guides/native_rel.html

:hi: sattahipdeep

[Karenina]

22. Chess, anyone?

;-) :kick:

[donkeyotay]

23. this is the heart of the lie being sold to people about some "lost" era

"Jesus Christ is, therefore, the Ruler of Nations, and should be explicitly confessed as such in any constitutional documents. The civil ruler is to be a servant of God, he derives his authority from God and he is duty-bound to govern according to the expressed will of God.

"The civil government of our nation, its laws, institutions, and practices must therefore be conformed to the principles of Biblical law as revealed in the Old and New Testaments."

Just read a great book called "The Godless Constitution: the case against religious correctness." It documents the battle that went on over including religion with government. There were two schools of thought: One that believed in a Christian commonwealth, and another that believed in an enlightened age of reason, one in which the issue of religion was removed from being the public's business to the private sphere. Government was to be based on reason, not religion.

Those who wanted a religious state lost at the time, but they are back. Those who founded our Constitution would be called kicking humanists today.

[JHB]

25. But you're forgetting...

'Reading isn't FUN-damentalist!'

Even in their own day, may of the Deist founders were accused of being, essentially, "atheists who won't just come out and admit it".

[sattahipdeep]

27. Brand New

:hi: seemslikeadream

[Sentath]

10. tolerance

/snip/
<interviewer>This raises a big question. Should humanists tolerate fundamentalists who are, in turn, so intolerant of them?

<Ault>Yes, they should tolerate them.

Alright, why?

<Ault>It's just not practical to dismiss them; they represent too much.

Because we have to?

<Ault>Fundamentalists are simply too big a percentage of our communities to ignore.

Because its politically expedient to?

<Ault>If you want to live in community, you need to struggle to understand them.

Because they wore down your resistance and convinced you that they are nice people?




/BLEEEP!/

I'm not saying that these reasons don't affect my day to day behavior here is south east Ks. But &*^&^% I'm tired of this 'suppressed minority' logic.

[phantom power]

12. we don't have to cave in to them, but I think what he's saying is

that merely displaying contempt for them won't make them go away, and it won't convince them to change their ways, either.

Those of us who are humanists should understand that this is also a hearts-and-minds battle. Holding them in contempt, and/or fighting with them, isn't going to win any hearts or minds.

[Sentath]

15. I don't want to have contempt for them

In some ways I'm even jealous, this is some of what the new tribalism tried for in the 80's and missed. In places where you can find enough of them FRPG'ers and/or furs have something similar. The local SCA does this to a lesser extent, and I'm sure there are other such cultures.

Part of what I was complaining about, and I should have made it clearer, was the lack of intellectual or moral rigor in his reasoning.

I don't disagree with the reasons that he presents, I just want reasons that don't jar against my existence. I hate having to do things because there is no choice.

P.S. for JHB: Yes, I agree that their legislative actions (and some of their cultural actions) must be resisted.

[JHB]

13. Exactly

It's like the old "liberal" streotype: "If we just UNDERSTAND them, (and its we who have to understand them) everything will just peachy."

Sometime when you understand something, you realize it has to be resisted constantly.

[JHB]

11. I'm not sure Ault understands his subject after all....

Maybe I'm better informed than I think, but he's not saying much that I don't already know, and to the extend that he's suggesting anything it seems pretty obvious (i.e., know what their hot-buttons are so you can get your foot in the door before you scare them off), but he doesn't have any suggestions to deal with them when they're on the warpath and have armored themselves against any counterargument.

[phantom power]

17. Based on his insights, I could recommend some specific things

1) They live in a society based more on oral tradition than the printed word. That implies that if we're going to communicate with them, it will have to be on a conversational and 1-1 level. With lots of repetion. Well-written, erudite articles, letters to the editor, etc, won't even be on their radar.

In other words, we would have to do something a bit like what the author did. Spend time with them. Any influence we might have would require time spent on a personal level, and would have effect only slowly.

2) Any arguments would need to be presented in terms of a tribal mind-set. Obviously, that's a headache, because most of the problems facing the world are exactly the ones that require thinking on a global level instead of tribal. For example, you can make a strong case that Democratic values are more tribe-friendly than GOP values. We just need to frame the discussion appropriately. Re-frame the concept of government as an engine of cooperation, support system, etc.

[JHB]

18. As I said, maybe I'm better versed than I thought I was...

...because those tactics strike me as blindingly obvious.

The Left needs fewer demostrators and more travelling salespeople (not that you can't be both...).

[w4rma]

16. Evangelicals are NOT the same as fundamentalists.

Many fundamentalists are evangelicals and many evangelicals are fundamentalists but they aren't the same thing. Evangelical Christians are simply Christians who wish to *spread* the word of God. Fundamentalist Christans are simply folks who say that they interpret the Bible, "literally".

[seemslikeadream]

26. 1991-1993: Religious Right Takes "Working Control" of the Republican Party

"The Christian Coalition: On The Road To VICTORY? A Special Report From Inside The Pat Robertson Political Machine," by Journalist Frederick Clarkson, Church and State, January, 1992.

"When I slipped into the national leadership meeting of Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition, I thought I knew what to expect. I'd written many stories about the Religious Right. But I was unprepared for what I saw, heard and felt inside Robertson's Virginia Beach, Va., headquarters for two days in November during the "Road to Victory" Conference and Strategy Briefing."

"The GOP's Religious War," Joan Lowy of Scripps-Howard News Service:

"Until last spring, Jo Martin was a relatively non­political Houston housewife. Today she's on the front lines of a religious war that has fractured the Republican Party. Martin, a 52-year-old mother of three, and her husband David, a stockbroker, are lifelong Republicans but hadn't been active in party politics for many years until they happened to attend a local GOP meeting last spring.

They were appalled by what they found. The party apparatus had been taken over by religious activists intent on bringing "biblical principles" to government: outlawing abortion, ostracizing homosexuals and teaching creationism in public schools, among other things. "We honest to goodness felt like we had fallen through a time warp into a Nazi brown-shirt meeting," Martin said.

"Inside the Covert Coalition", Church and State, Frederick Clarkson, November, 1992.

"The Great Right Hope" by Frederick Clarkson documents how Dr. Steven Hotze out-shouted the GOP Chair to take over the leadership of the Harris County (home to Houston) political apparatus:
"The wildest dreams of the Far Right in America may actually be within their reach - control of the Republican Party."

San Jose Mercury News, 1992, Two articles -- one before the election, one after:

A group dedicated to making the Bible the law of the land has quietly positioned itself to take over the Republican Party's power structure in Santa Clara County.

The 17 Christian right candidates for the Republican Central Committee appear on a mailer put out by a Tehama County group called Citizens for Liberty. The flier says the candidates advocate "traditional family values, more jobs, lower taxes, welfare reform and choice in education."

But at least some have a more sweeping agenda ... Some see takeover plans. More liberal Republicans say the Central Committee campaign is part of a widespread "stealth" effort to take over America by starting with little-noticed local races. They cite elections in San Diego County two years ago, when 60 of 90 Christian right candidates for low-level offices won election, largely by campaigning through conservative churches.

"Clearly the strategy is to control the central committees and then use the central committees to give credibility to their candidates," said Luis Buhler...

A fundraising letter ... includes "a call for the death penalty for abortion, adultery and unrepentant homosexuality."

Many of these links come from The Activists Handbook, by Frederick Clarkson and Skipp Porteous of the Institute for First Amendment Studies. Articles from the Handbook have been scanned for this site because they are not otherwise available on the web. The Institute's highly informative articles were once housed at Tufts University from where they appeared on the web, but then they mysteriously disappeared from the web. These articles document the activities of the Christian Coalition from 1991-1993 as they began to take "working control" of the Republican Party. Skipp Porteous, founder of IFAS, said he doesn't know why they were removed from the web, and he has since taken the papers to Political Research Associates.
more
http://www.theocracywatch.org/taking_over.htm

[lefthandedskyhook]

28. change (a) to paternalistic and (c) to unenlightened

then the answer is (g)

[prodigal_green]

29. Most are in red states anyway

Even if every one of them turns out, I don't think it will change the EC.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

30. I don't agree with a and c.