Motherhood is an important responsibility, NOT A JOB!

[Sterling]

Discuss.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. its actually both.

[shraby]

5. Been there, done that.....

Motherhood IS a job..a full time one. I had 4 pre-schoolers at once. Anyone says that is not a job can go shove it.
Fortunately they are all grown now and turned into upstanding citizens.
Along with the work part of it is the values you teach them, the time you spend on all the "little" problems they have, helping them with schoolwork, and making your home a place where they bring their friends, just to name a few of the extras.

[knowbody0]

2. i have an ex who said he couldn't babysit for me

[rkc3]

3. I'm feeling all verklampt over this. Talk amongst yourselves.

[Pirate Smile]

4. Here is a thread on this from this morning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1127694

[ElsewheresDaughter]

6. Associates Degree in the field of Childhood Development & Human

Relations = Stay-at-Home Mom!

[realFedUp]

7. Unpaid work without benefits, pension or vacations from...

rewards include intermittent hugs, handmade
clay handprints, Mother's Day cards and
new slippers, and Oh, Mom from teenaged
offspring.

It's a job.

[jdj]

90. This is the acid test:

is it a job?

if you are related to the child? no, not a job
if you are not related to the child? yes, apparently (day-care, foster care, teachers, lessons, sports, etc)

if you are related to the senior needing care? no
if you are not related to the senior needing care? yes (personal care assistants, nursing assistants, hospice workers etc.)

if you are going to keep the baby you birth? no
if you are going to sell it for $20,000 and up (surrogate mom)? yes

very revealing that we think our blood relatives are the least valuable people, we only consider it a job worthy of pay when we care for strangers.

[noiretextatique]

8. is fatherhood a job?

why doesn't this question generate as much discussion as the other one?

[displacedtexan]

11. That's what I always ask...

In major studies, the mother is always blamed (stay at home v work outside the home) if a kid isn't perfect.

No one ever blames the father.

[Forkboy]

12. I blame my dad more than my mom

really :)

[noiretextatique]

15. why isn't this up for national debate?

i agree...it's always about the woman and the exaltation of motherhood.
isn't this "debate" really about THAT...that some idealized version of motherhood still should be every woman's dream and highest ambition?

[Iris]

20. Right. And the best way to put a woman in her place is still to

call her a "bad mother"!

[noiretextatique]

24. boy...is that ever the truth eom

[jdj]

91. but don't you know, all women want is a freaking Hallmark card

and some flowers.

[Karenina]

25. BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

:hi: :loveya: :hi:

[noiretextatique]

28. hey there

:loveya: i gotta pm you soon :hi:

[Sterling]

27. No if it was it would pay.

Im fact these things suck money like nothing else. It's a liability not a way to make a living. If it were a job we could all stay home and raise our kids and still pay the rent.

No disrespect to moms it's hard but not a "job".

[Kanary]

85. And that's the whole goddamned point. If you keep insisting it *isn't*

a fucking job, there will NEVEr be any respect, any recompense, or any benefit.

A mother will continue to give her life for her kids in this shitassed society, and if she picked a fucker for a husband and he fucks around and dumps her, she will have NOTHING.

*THAT'S* what we realized 40 goddamned years ago, and fought tooth and nail to change.

But, go ahead, all you smarter new generation of women.... turn your back on all the awareness we tried to accomplish, call us a bunch of shitassed old ladies, and do your own thing. Attack women who want to raise their own kids instead of some stranger who couldn't care less, because I really don't give a flying fuck about it all anymore.

But, if you find out in a generation or so that maybe there was, indeed, something to what we were saying, and the choices we were trying to make available which you now find so comical that you sneer at anyone who sees things differently from you, and find your ass in a sling, well, tough.

I'm fucking tired of trying to discuss anything at all intelligently and with some sense of acceptance for those with different views. That's not the way of this fucking generation now...... to hell with civility, too hell with any humility that maybe you don't have all the answers, and to hell with everyone else the teensiest bit different from you. You want a society filled with constant contention and slamming contests, go for it. Because my generation and those in the generation before me are mostly giving up on the whole fucking mess. It's your world now, do as you damned well please. Fucking blow it up. Just take some responsibility for what you create, while you're at it.

Fuck it.

Kanary

[dorktv]

98. Little bitter?

You know what makes me angry? When my parent's generation gets mad at my generation for our behavior. We were raised (in theory) by you, if you do not like the way we are, how come WE are the ones at fault? Is that not what parenting is suppose to be: teaching your children the way you would like them to behave in society and to blame us for your failures is wrong and unfair. When we become adults we are of course responsible for our behavior but we learned our values from you, our parents, so you needed to make sure they were good ones.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

114. Good response

That's something that always seems to get over looked.

[noiretextatique]

100. a lot of jobs aren't respected or valued

most of them are jobs performed by women.
parenthood is a choice, but obviously a choice that keeps the human race going. to that extent, parents should be supported in raising children, in doing the JOB of nurturing and educating the next generation of people who will be doing all the jobs, including raising children, that a society needs to function.
people do all kinds of jobs that contribute to the larger society. frankly...as a person who chose not to have children, i appreciate and admire parents.
however, i think "motherhood" is a concept that can be very oppressive to women, to mothers in particular. not motherhood itself, of course, but the beliefs and attitudes some assoicate with it.
for example, when i was a very young woman in the late 70's, there still was that awful, oppressive expectation that i would suddenly abandon all career ambitions when i magically met "the man," and most defintely when i had "the baby." motherhood, in that view, was the vehicle by which a woman found her true calling, if not her true self.
surely...not all that much has changed in terms of societal expectations of women. there is perhaps a new, improved view (wait until you have a career, then stay home with the kids), but i do think motherhood is still considered the ultimate expression of womanhood.
i do not think it is wrong, or disrespectful to mothers to reject that view of motherhood.
nor do i think rejecting that view of motherhood is some type of indictment of women who choice to be mothers, or the choices they make.
and the work women do...whether it's raising kids, or cruching numbers, or filing briefs, or performing heart surgery, or writing books, or composing music...is still generally not as respected or valued as when the same work is performed by a man.

[July]

29. It is. And, like motherhood, it is a job whether or not you have another.

ALL mothers and fathers have the parenting job, and, whether or not they work, most give it their best. And there are good parents of both sexes, some with jobs, some without -- and bad ones just like the good ones.

[wurzel]

9. It is a job. And women should be paid by the State for doing it.

Just as other State jobs are paid.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

14. raising a child to become a state job?

wow...please tell me you're kidding.

theProdigal

[wurzel]

17. Yes. In the sense that our whole society actually depends on children.

The bringing up of a child is of everwhelming importance to any society. I see no reason a woman should not be paid for such an important job, just as anyone else is paid. We don't now expect soldiers to work for "patriotism" alone. Though that was once the case. Why shouldn't women be paid for being mothers?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

45. raising a child is NOT a state function

and has no business being compensated for by the state. Equating being a soldier to being a mother is ludicrous. Mothers should not be paid by the state for procreating any more than they should be paid for just being a decent citizen...

Holy Crap...this is as far out a thing as I have EVER read on this board. Insanity...

theProdigal

[SemperEadem]

55. I agree

Didn't they use to do that in the Soviet block countries?

having a child is a personal choice, not a civil duty to the state.
If the state pays for one to have children, then the state gets to weigh in on all decisions regarding that child regardless of what the parent thinks about the arrangement.

Whenever one pays to subsidize another, they're paying for their inclusion in decision making process in the life of the person for whom they're paying.

[wurzel]

86. I never said it was. Nor did I equate a mother with a soldier.

Pay attention! I simply pointed out that at one time a "warrior" was not paid by his society. Today a "soldier" is. Human beings do not come cheap, let alone free. If you value motherhood you should be prepared to pay for it instead of freeloading.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

94. yeah...working my ass off so my wife can stay home with

our daughter is freeloading. Making sure that this family has food/shelter/clothing/heat/water and myriad other things is freeloading. And you DID equate the two by saying they both should be paid functions of the state...like it or not.

Your idea is insane. The state cannot pay for child rearing.

TheProdigal

[wurzel]

107. The State Does pay for child rearing. Who paid for your schooling?

The State also gives "child credits" in taxation. The reason you are "working your ass off" is because your daughter's mother is not being paid for the work she is doing. Work I value to our society as much as yours, even though I have no clue what you do.

We have far too many children of single mothers who simply cannot cope. Where are those children while she is off doing some ill paid waitressing job? Is the job of a waitress more valuable than the job of a mother? I don't think so. For too long the State and men have freeloaded on and devalued the work of mothers. We pay soldiers, policemen, teachers, nurses, day care center workers. Why not mothers? If we don't pay now we will surely pay later.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

108. my daughter is two...so I guess fisher-price is her education

for the moment and to be honest...I won't send her to a public school for all of the crap that goes on in them.

As for paying people to be mothers, you are missing a distinction that I think is foundational. All of the professions you mention above are paid by the state...but for services rendered to people that aren't their family. Paying mothers to raise their children is ridiculous, IMHO. Paying mothers to raise their kids is like paying someone to watche their weight or keep their yard mowed...not to degrade the importance of motherhood, but on some level those things are the same. I guess my primary feeling on this is that you shouldn't be paying someone for something so important as raising their own children.

[wurzel]

109. My point is that children are not children for life.

Eventually they become teenagers then adults. I strongly believe the kind of adults they will be is of crucial importance to the State ( or "society" if you prefer the word). I am told by experts and my own experience confirms that the critical age for a child is from birth to six years old. I want that time spent with the child's mother. Not in foster care or a daycare center. If that means paying mothers while I pour my own coffee that is fine with me. I also believe our entire country has a stake in this. It really does "take a village".

[ProdigalJunkMail]

113. no, it takes me and my wife to raise our children

it does not take a village. And yes our country does have a stake in this and therefore it is the best interest of the country to stay the hell out of it. The moment you try to involve the state in the most basic functions of human nature, you take away human nature. If you think the state would silently pay and not want a say in the way a child is raised, you are sadly mistaken.

theProdigal

[wurzel]

116. In the end your children will become citizens.

They will not live forever in your family. No family is sufficient unto itself. This is not a clan society. I also believe that one of the primary duties of parents is to teach their children the values of the society they live in. Or it used to be. Now I think your generation may be the first in history where parents are expected to protect their children from the toxic nature of the culture they live in. An impossible task.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

118. and the type of citizen they become

will be up to them...and they will have the values my wife and I instill upon them and some that they come up with on their own. The second the state tries to raise my child...I will leave...I will not allow the state to instill its values over and above ours. The state is not granted that right...the right and the blessing to raise children rests firmly in the hands of the parents who wish to do so.

I will never ever agree with you on this on any level and I think anyone who does should go ahead and turn their children over as wards of the state at this time. I appreciate your right to express the opinion...I just think it is slightly insane...

TheProdigal

[Sterling]

130. "Human beings do not come cheap, let alone free." bullshit

Life on this planet is so expendable. We have way more people than we need. Bringing one more into the world is a liabilty on the planet and the human race not a service.

Having kids in a very real way is quite selfish. Sure most of us do it and I probably will too one day but I won't pretend I am doing a service to mankind.

[NickB79]

92. It's like a Chris Rock skit

"Brothers are walking around saying ignorant sh*t like, I take care of my kids. Thats what you're sposed to do, you stupid motherf**ker!"

[ProdigalJunkMail]

95. yeah...gotta love Chris Rock

but lately David Chappelle (sp?) has my attention! I laugh so hard I hurt when I watch his show!

theProdigal

[sweetheart]

133. Yes it is

A child lovingly cared for in its first 6 years is MUCH less likely
to ever depend on state services in future life, much less likely
to become a drug addict, a criminal or any degenerate.

As well, that child will enter the workforce and be paying for
"your" retirement and the continuity of the state. It is absolutely
state business that there be a healthy next generation, and that
mothers (parents) are available for that nurturing.

It is well known that the best place to invest in a citizen is in
those first 6 years, and paying a parent (i disagree that mothers
only have this obligation), to be there as a loving parent is in
all of our interests.

I would much rather close a prison and pay mothers than open a new
prison. Your logic is banal.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

134. your attempt to raise our child

is repulsive. If the state pays mothers/fathers to raise children you can damn well bet that they will step in with 'standards'. If people would just raise their children to not be likely wards of the state in their future...then that would be best.

It take a mother and in most cases a father that are dedicated to their children to make this happen. One of two ways you can have a parent not have to work...1) lower the tax burden on the family 2) reduce the desired standard of living in the family so that only one parent has to work.

The most common reason children are left to be raised in day care is because people are greedy. I have seen mother/father based homes where the income is over $300,000 (with one parent making the majority of that) and they still both worked...leaving their children (both under five) to be raised in day care by strangers. Peoples' kids suck because the parents aren't there...but the state should not make it so that they can be there unless it is simply a matter of reducing tax burden. And if the taxes aren't the problem then the parents need to not be so selfish and greedy and one of them needs to stay home...

theProdigal

[sweetheart]

135. What? Raise your own kid

I merely point out a likely correlation between america's massive
prison population, and the 2-4 weeks maternity leave a mother gets
before she's to be back at work.

Tax subsidies along the REAL cost of raising kids would be a start,
as well as actual state payments to stay-at-home parents.

Reducing the standard of living is a non-starter.

I've seen the really ugly side of state intervention in to the family
here in britain, where a healthy family of a mate of mine was
descended upon by the social services who mistakenly thought some
abuse was going on. I happened to be sitting in the kitchen that
day when the brownshirts came to take the kid away, and the father
away for "observation"... and in truth, he was upset cuz he lost his
job.. a normal occurrence in life... but I was apalled at how the
whole situation had gotten out of control.

So i hear your concern about having the welfare state in child
raising... just, its not what i'm discussing at all, at all.. no
rather making sure that any parent who chose to remain home with the
kids could have a modest state supported standard of living, so that
all of us can benefit.

Most people i know, who have the kids in daycare, are doing so as
they simply can't afford the mortgage otherwise. If the economic
stress is relieved, i don't know any parents who would not rather
do their own childcare. I'm sure there are some... and then those
wankers should seriously have considered that children arn't "cars"
to be acquired and managed.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

136. no...never...no state payments n/t

[sweetheart]

141. 1/3 of all american kids live in poverty..

Thanks to thinking like that. Tax abatements, medical services
and housing are the things people talk about, but none of these
are as critical as keeping the parents in their early lives.

I see you have no solution, just shout no.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

142. stay the hell away from our kid

people like you scare the shit out of me...let the government do EVERYTHING. Spooky...

I do have a solution...keep government out of the raising kids business. Government sucks at just about everything it does...you wanna give it a shot at this? Boy...that idea is just assinine.

theProdigal

[sweetheart]

143. You're making up paranoid illusions

You can tear up the cheque when it comes to you.

Societies that support mothers staying with their children have
1/10th the prison populations the US has, and have much higher
standards of living. What is the problem?

You're on about something else, like that with money, you'll have
childcare regulators in your house checking lists on your raising
skills. NOT. I never said that. You're making that up.

When you can spare the time, you should go visit countries that DO
support stay at home parenting, and i think you'll find a much more
sophistocated and healthy society than you're sort of thinking
engenders.

Republicanism has gotten to you, as it is their meme to destroy
government and to make it the enemy of the people.

On behalf of 33% of american children, your ideas are what are
asinine. Why do you write on DU, if you do not support improving
the lot of the poor. (as women are overwhelmingly in that poorer
set, you are clearly no feminist.)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

145. horsehockey

the government will try to regulate it...name one 'industry' the government subsidizes that it doesn't regulate...hell they regulate industries they don't subsidize.

My wife stays at home with our child. I bust my ass so she can do that. We were not going to have children until we were in the place in life so that could happen. We made that choice. Why don't others? What level of responsibility is being shown by families who cannot afford to have children and then complain that they cannot stay home with them?

I think the government has a place...but it sure is hell isn't in my home raising my kids. I support raising the lot of the poor...but the government raising children is NOT the way to go. And you are sadly naive if you believe that the government could keep their noses out of your child-rearing...hell they can't even stay out of the bedroom.

It is obvious that you believe that the government can make everything better with either a check or some assistance. I believe PEOPLE can make their lives better if the government would just get the hell out of the way sometimes. Do I believe in eliminating the government or that it is the boogie-man? No...but face it, huge bureaucracies are terrible at the work they do...name one program that the government hasn't screwed up and I'll gladly name ten that they have...I don't like those odds.

Keep your hands of our kids...I think that is all I have to say about this topic...good luck convincing other parents that the government should have a say in the raising of their kids...
theProdigal

[hiphopnation]

137. this whole thread is about being told how to raise your kids

and, yes, it is most repulsive. I wish it would just go away. x(

[intheflow]

18. Yes, could be in the form of "real" tax credit

Parents who work in the home raising children are not able to contribute financially to their families' finances.

This is a huge strain on families, and not affordable by most families in America, so both parents have to work. This leads to a breakdown in social structure, i.e. latchkey kids are more likely to become involved in drugs or other harmful activities to themselves or to others.

I am NOT suggesting that we go back to June Cleaver-Land. If both parents want to work, great! I, personally, couldn't hack the stay-at-home mom thing. But to affirm the choice--or the need--for both parents to work, I'd like to see after school programs expanded and financed by the state as well.

However, I am saying that when either parent is able to stay home with a child, that provides a kind of societal stability.

In general, women's work has been undervalued by society, while society has gained a lot financially from women's unpaid work.

[wurzel]

117. I absolutely agree with you.

[Sterling]

131. I will pay women not to have kids.

That would be a better use of our tax dolars.

[Book Lover]

21. No - the State could then tell me what to do

as they would be providing me with a salary. Federal income tax breaks are enough, thank you.

Also, where do fathers fit into your equation? Why shouldn't both parents receive monies from the State?

[wurzel]

123. The State tells you what to do anyway.

As you would quickly find out if you ever really challenged it. Our "freedoms" are largely an illusion. As to fathers I am not particularly concerned about them. They aren't pregnant for nine months and are at no physical risk. Most fathers have jobs that pay them. My concern is about the impossible pressures and expectations that society and men so casually put on unrewarded women.

[theboss]

22. That's madness

Sorry, it is.

[wurzel]

120. At one time education of the poor was considered "madness".

So was subsidized housing and unemployment pay. Universal health care is still considered "madness" in our country.

[Sterling]

30. I don’t think we should be encouraging people to have kids.

At this point if you chose to have kids you are creating a burden on humanity. With fewer resources we should all be aware making more people will mean a lot of suffering for these future masses in the coming generation/s.

[Danocrat]

10. An interesting question

I posed that to some co-workers a few months ago, since all of them are mothers and feel that one or two days out of the week they have to be home with their kids. They didn't call me and ask me for the day off, they call the other mothers. I feel the person telling them, "Go ahead dear and stay home" should have to do their work. I made a comment about how I don't understand, not that it was wrong, just that I didn't understand how someone couldn't make up their mind if they wanted to stay home and be a mother or work full time. They ganged up on me and now my boss is paying me to stay home and find another job. Sweet.

[Sterling]

43. Sorry to hear that.

I don't like mommy pandering anymore than I like NASCAR dad pandering.

It's just another wway to divide the population against it's self..

[Pithlet]

58. I don't know if you should have been fired for it.

If your comments were a one time thing. But your comments about them making up their mind were way out of line.

[napi21]

13. OK, so what do you call it when you raise 2 children & work full time?

Is that working TWO full time jobs?

People are disecting the "job" word a bit too much! My children are now grown and out of the nest now, but when they were little, it was a very common thing to comment about "working mothers" and "mothers". Nobody got offended when someone said she's a working mom. It never occurred to any of us that being a wife and mother wasn't work, it was a completely different context.

Geesh! People need to stop analyzing every word trying to find alternate meanings!

[Iris]

26. Yes!

I think it's an awful message to send to children that having a family life is a "job"!

[Sterling]

37. That is the other side of this I don't think people consider.

many parents treat their children as though they were not a choice that the parent made but a burden that was placed on them.


I think people like Bush who always focus on what hard work having kids is miss the point of being a parent. He said raising kids was harder than war.The thing is Bush does not even have to work while raising kids or worry about money to send them to school. That is what makes being a parent so god damn hard is the fact most of use have to work our asses off to provide and have little time to spend with our kids because we are at our JOBS.

[Sterling]

34. Raising kids while working.

It's what most families do in the new economy.

[bloom]

127. Actually - I do think it is like having two jobs

and if you are with your kids for 16+ waking hours a day THAT is like two jobs, as well.

Not everyone takes their "job" seriously whether that job is a paid one or a non-paid one - like raising ones own children. But I think - for those who do - it is quite intense.

As long as parents can be charged with neglect for NOT providing adequate care - it seems like there are outside forces that expect and demand that a certain level of action.

It's certainly NOT like you just live with these people... and are free to ignore them.

[Forkboy]

16. This reminds me a jiacinto post

Virginity?

Discuss

:)

[Sterling]

33. That can't be a compliment right?

lol

[Forkboy]

52. lol...sorry

I still get Carlos flashbacks.I'm taking meds for it :D

[ulysses]

105. remember the Africa fix?

"Madagascar! Discuss!"

:D

[Iris]

19. I would call it a lifestyle.

If you don't want it, don't choose it.

[Heddi]

23. Why is it a job if someone ELSE cares for your kids (daycare)

but not a job if a parent cares for their own children?

Or it's not a job if you stay at home and watch after your own kids, but if you bring some other kids in, then it IS a job?

Sure it's a job.

I'm training to become a Nurse. I'm currently in school now. Would I still be a nurse if I didn't work for pay and cared for an elderly or ill family member? Sure I would. Even if I didn't have a nursing degree, I would still have the 'job' of bathing, feeding, administering meds, etc, to my family member.

Likewise, being a parent is more than just popping out a kid and watching it grow. It's nurturing, loving, teaching, explaining, caring for, feeding, clothing, putting-a-roof-over-the-head---everything.

Again, I wonder why babysitting is considered a job, or childcare by a non-family-member is considered a job, but being a stay-at-home parent (or a parent in general) isn't considered a job?

To me, it's one of the most IMPORTANT jobs someone can do, and even more important that they do it well.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

61. Because

That is a service. Taking care of my kids is my responsibility. But when I need someone else to watch them then I need a service. The day care workers of this world chose a JOB that involved caring for kids. As parents, we choose to have those kids. I stand by my opinion that parenting, where it does require work, is not a job it is a choice. I chose to work at a job also. But that is only because those kids that I choose to have, along with myself have to eat. Otherwise, I might choose to not work at a job.

[intheflow]

88. This is a classist view

By saying that parenthood is a choice, you place the idea of parenting in a market mentality.

A poor parent may not be financially independent enough to "choose" to stay home. Indeed, many parents have to work so many hours that they effectively cannot "parent" because they only see their kid(s) off to school or to tuck them in at night. That may not have been the case when they decided to have children, or they may have "chosen" to have a child because of personal morality without being able to support it adequately.

For families making wages under the poverty level (which should be raised, but that's for another rant), parenting should be compensated. It can come in the form of a tax cut, but it needs to be more than the child tax credit pennies they give out now.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

115. It is not

a classist view. A service is a service no matter what that service. You can try and rationalize it all you want but that fact won't change. When you decide to have a child it is a choice you are making. Sure, shit happens sometimes and your circumstances change. But the fact of the matter is you made the choice to have kids. When you make that choice you also are accepting the responsibility to be a parent to those kids no matter what. We have services now that can help in the event of some unforseen happening (where I am very aware they are not as good as they could be). Those services come in the form of child care subsidies, medicaid, food stams and welfare.

Maybe I am understanding some of the posts in a way other than how they were intended but when people say raising kids should be compensated by tax dollars it makes my head spin. What you are in essence saying is, to all of those who don't have kids and made the choice to not take on that responsibility, tough shit, you can pay for my choices. And that is just insane.

I wonder, to everyone that thinks child rearing should be subsidized by tax dollars, do you also think it's perfectly ok for the US tax dollars to be paying for health care for all of Iraq when it's not being provided for the very citizens that are paying for it?

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

31. I'm wondering why you posted this...

[Sterling]

38. Because Mrs. Kerry said Stepford wife has never had a real job.

Being a librarian is a job and so is teaching. However both are very good jobs to have if you are a mom. You have a chance of teaching your own kids, you get summers off and only work the hours your kids are at school for the most part.

My point is not all mom jobs are equal. If mommy can afford to send kids to daycare and not have to have a job at all that is hardly hard work.

If mommy has to work at McDonalds 40 hrs a week that’s fucking harsh and she deserves a medal.

[porphyrian]

32. Motherfuckerhood is a job...

...I've worked for enough of them.

[The Straight Story]

35. Define Job (n/t)

[HEyHEY]

36. And a job is an important responsibility

[Sterling]

40. Depends on your job really.

I have had some jobs that did not require a lot of effort or commitment. And others that were high pressure.

[SarahB]

39. It's a job that means nothing to society.

I'm trying to get back into the workforce after a number of years of being totally at home with children. My degree doesn't matter. My GPA doesn't matter. My job experience (too sporadic) doesn't matter. Once I get to the point where I have an interview, it's fine because I come across as a person who knows what I'm talking about, but getting to that point is proving itself to be hard- damn hard.

[Sterling]

41. But it means a lot to your family and your kids.

That's enough for me.

[SarahB]

47. It's been good for my children.

However, when my spouse decided to flake out on me 6&1/2 years ago in assorted ways, it pretty much left me stuck here, making due, emotionally withdrawing for the sake of my own mental health, and feeling as if I had no say in the direction of my own life. His career kept moving along quite nicely. So here I am now, after the it has all hit the fan (counseling done, talked until we were blue; understanding the mistakes, but knowing it's over, irreparable, and we're beginning the divorce process), still stuck here under the same roof. It's been great for everyone- except for me. I wouldn't advise my daughter to ever put herself into a place of vulnerability. Get a very marketable degree and at least stay part-time. I don't care if I were with a millionaire in the future. I wouldn't give it up my elements of control of my own earning capacity ever again.

[Sterling]

49. I do lots of things I am proud of that are not my "job"

I make indie films and sometimes make a little money but, it's not a "job". It's something I feel is important but it's not going feed my family at the end of the day so I go do a job with a lot of my time I would rather spend with my family.

[bloom]

129. sooooo... you are assuming that "jobs" are all about money... eom

[hiphopnation]

42. Hogwash.

PARENTHOOD is a HUUUUUUUGE responsibility and one heck of a tough job. Anyone who doesn't think so is a) not a parent b) doing a lousy job raising thier kids, IMHO.

[Sterling]

44. I disagree.

I think if you tell your kids they are a job you are not being the best parent you could be.

[hiphopnation]

46. Then you don't "disagree".

Nowhere did I say anything about communicating this sentiment to my kids and neither did your original post. I stand by the sentiment, parenting is a tough job.

[Sterling]

48. No I still disagree.

If you think of it as a job of course you are going to behave as if it's a job even if you don't tell your kids you think raising them is akin to a job, something that you do not usually enjoy.

Regardless, it's not a job, if it were someone would pay you to do it. The fact is no one but us needs our kids.

[hiphopnation]

50. Silliness.

It is a job among many other things. You're trying to define something that is so many different things to so many different people. Good luck.

BTW, I love playing music. Recording it is something I don't look forward to and it is very much a JOB for me. No one pays me for it (yet) and yet I very much look forward to the end product. This is mostly an issue of semantics and subjectiveness.

[Iris]

53. I would say having children is part of living.

If living is a job to some people, then so be it.

[hiphopnation]

54. have you ever felt like life is a "job"?

[Iris]

56. Nope! The day I start defining my life in the language of the business

world is the day I'm outta here!

[hiphopnation]

87. I'd be lying if I said

I wasn't a tad envious. My life often feels like work. That's not to say I don't have a good time at it as well. Methinks this largely to be a highly subjective POV type 'o thang and you just can't argue that one is right while the other is wrong. Peace.

:thumbsup:

[Iris]

97. Well, I'd be inclined to say there's "life's work" or the "work of life"

and there's "Jobs" which really are a part of the business world - which is NOT about the business of life!

I think your music is your life's work. Just because you don't get paid for it doesn't make it less difficult and it CERTAINLY doesn't make it less meaningful. But trying to pin labels from business school on it cheapens it somehow, in my opinion!

Be glad you have something you are passionate about!

[Sterling]

69. Yes then everything is a job.

One of my jobs is going to the grocery store. Another is walking my dog, so on and so on.

Maybe these are tasks but not jobs in a career make a living sense.

Regardless one should not look at raising one's kids as a task.

[Iris]

79. That's work.

Life-stuff, the work of life.

Jobs are stuff you get paid for.

[Sterling]

126. Yes, that's my point.

Thanks for seeing it.

[Sterling]

68. Try putting it on your resume.

It's clear form this post you don't understand the difference between a hobby and a job.

[hiphopnation]

81. And with this post

you've gotten to the thrust of my point which is that with this thread you are arguing nothing more than semantics and that's something I don't have time for. I've got kids to raise. :) Good luck with this endeavor, though. :thumbsup:

[Sterling]

125. Good luck with the kids.

It's a priviledge, not a job, make sure they understand that.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

78. Whoever said that a job or work is a negative thing?

Whoever said that a job is something you must always be paid for?
Parenting is a labor of love.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

51. Parenting

is a CHOICE.

[SemperEadem]

57. and a responsibility you can't foist onto others

[Sterling]

73. Yet some do.

Lots of people decide to shirk those responsibilities. Dead beat dads and run away mommy's are far too common.

[bloom]

132. exactly

and I think if those people saw childrearing as a job (you can call it a responsibility if you would rather - but there is still actual WORK to be done) that they can't run away from or pawn off on someone else - that would be an improvement.

[Pithlet]

60. Working is a choice.

Sure, you won't get a paycheck if you choose not to work. But, it's still a choice. You can also choose where you work and what you do. So, should labor unions not exist because working is a choice? Corporate greed and outsourcing aren't issues, because work is a choice? Are the issues that someone faces in the workplace irrelevant because they "chose" to work there?

In other words, how is it relevant to the discussion to declare "Parenting is a CHOICE"?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

62. It's relevant because....

Yes, working is a choice. You could choose to not work and be homeless and starve. That is a choice. Or maybe you choose to mooch off others. That is also a choice. Unless you are born into wealth or hit the lottery, then that choice to work becomes less of a choice and more of a necessity. If you want to buy a house, you need money, if you don't have money at birth, well then I guess you better get a job and work if you want to buy that house or that macaroni and cheese that keeps you from starving ot pay the doctor to fix you when you are sick. Having kids on the other hand is a whole other category of choice. You don't HAVE to have kids to be able to buy a home (or rent one either). You don't HAVE to have kids to keep from starving. Everything you do in this life is a choice. Some are necessary choices and others are not.

I have 2 kids of my own. And where I fully believe that raising kids to become productive, upstanding memebers of society is a very important job that requires lots and lots of hard work. And todays society does not seem to recognize that and is not as "family friendly" as it should be. (It will take lots and lots of hard work on top of parenting and a job to strive for change). I firmly hold to the belief that becoming a parent is a choice that was not made out of necessity therefore you can not compare it to the necessity of a job.

[Pithlet]

63. I see

Your answer was in reference to topic of the post, not the post you were responding to. My mistake.

"Parenting is a CHOICE" is usually a canned response from the child-free movement, and that is what I mistakenly took it for.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

65. Well I certainly

am not in the "child free" movement. I just don't understand why people want to lump parenting in with a job and some think it should be compensated in the form of a paycheck just like a job.

When one decides to become a parent, do they look at in terms of a job? If so, then society is worse off than I thought. Parenting, in my opinion, does have compensation. However, it's not monetary. My payments for choosing to be a parent; The day my youngest ranked 5th out of 200 other kids in the regional choir audition, the day he called me at work to tell me he scored a 98 on the state algebra test as a 7th grader or maybe it was the day he put on the formal sequined uniform for the first time after auditioning for the high school marching band and making it before he even got to high school. But you know, it could have been when I sat in a chair in a performance hall and watched my oldest play original music, that he had written with his band in their first paying gig. I don't know, it's hard to decide which payment was worth more. But I can tell you, those payments and the many many others I have received over the years for choosing parenthood is worth far more than any CEO position could ever pay me.

[Pithlet]

72. I agree

I'm a stay at home mom, and I love it. But it isn't a career. It's a time of my life that will only last a short while. I would equate stay at home to a job that I love so much that I'm not doing it for the pay, the pay is just icing on the cake.

[Sterling]

76. It's great you can do that and honorable as well.

Your kids will thank you for it I am sure. I hope your family is amking ends meat cuz these days it's hard to do that and still pay the bills. I wish my mom could have done that.

[Pithlet]

84. We're fine as long as

my husband's job stays in the US. We don't do the vacations to Europe, or anything like that, but it is worth it. Thanks :)

[Malva Zebrina]

59. Right and that has been what kept women under the thumb

of men.

They did not get paid for their work , because it was not considered a job and not recognized as work, but as a responsibility. The husband also had a responsibility to support her and the children, something which has gone by the wayside in these days also. Rare is it that the husband is the bearer of that responsibility. In fact, these days it would be considered unfair to expect the husband to assume ALL the responsibility of supporting the family he spawned.

AS an indication of the frustration of women of that time, read Diary of a Mad Housewife

[Sterling]

74. Those are the good ole days. Now mommy works too.

Because she has too. The family can no longer live on Dads paycheck. Womens lib is a double edged sword. One drawback is that it flooded the workforce with talent that was not there befor making job competition tougher and wages lower as a whole.

Now mommy and daddy have to have "jobs" and no one really gets to stay home and raise their children which I always considered a luxury even though raising kids takes a lot of effort.

[Bridget Burke]

99. Clue: Women were working before "womens lib"

My mother was left a widow with 3 preschoolers. There was money for her to stay home until we were all in school. Then she went back to work--until she retired. My grandmother helped raise us; a widow, she worked too. But she had summers off.

This was back in the 50's. The Donna Reed show was just a TV show.

Parenthood is a responsibility. It's beyond just a "job" & both parents should take part.

[greatauntoftriplets]

102. My grandmother became a working mother in 1918...

she was a bookkeeper for a department store in the town where they lived. Her kids were 8, 10 and 12 at the time my grandfather died in the flu epidemic after World War I.

[Sterling]

124. Sure but not like today.

If you are saying that there are not a lot more women in the workforce than in those days your not being honest.

My Grandma worked as well. However the "career" jobs are now for boys and girls and pay less. It's just the truth.

[T Town Jake]

64. Less than two weeks to go until the most important election...

...of our lifetimes, and you post this obvious flamebait bullshit thread.
It makes me wonder about your motives....

[GodHelpUsAll2]

66. Chill out

Discussion of a topic other than Iraq are good for the stressed political soul.

Questioning the motives of others who are discussing things other than the administration's screw up of the day is a bit on the paranoid side.

[Sterling]

67. You caught me.

I am clearly here to throw the elction for Bush. :eyes:

[GodHelpUsAll2]

70. Oh No

Your true colors are revealed! LOL I don't know about you, but I actually need discussion on topics other than politics at least once every 6 months.

[Mr Blond]

71. You're wrong.

Discuss...

[Sterling]

75. Is that all you got?

Well I guess that settle's it since you determine absolute truth by fiat.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

77. I notice

the people who accuse of flamebait and scold all and the ones who state you are wrong with no explanation don't stick around for long.

[Liberal Veteran]

80. I think it's like saying Mother Teresa did "just a job".....

....instead of the vocation she chose in life.

I don't think it makes sense to try to pidgeonhole parenting as employment.

Not everything that involves labor or work is a "job".

[Columbia]

82. Tomato, tomahto

[underseasurveyor]

83. I looked upon Motherhood more as an Honor.

To be handed a helpless naked human being and then having to be responsible to carry out the enormous task of making sure it grows and thrives with the least amout of damage (inside or out ;-) ) until they attain the age of 18 years? Whew yeah that's a lot of blood, sweat and tears, it's hard work alright and sometimes it does 'feel' like a job, but it's one heck of an Honor to be a parent. :thumbsup:
:-)

[lostnfound]

89. I agree. And it's a beautiful thing that it is NOT monetary

Plenty of support for mothers & kids, like healthcare and school lunches & quality shelters if they are homeless -- yes. But salary? No.

[REP]

93. You Can Get By Without Being a Mother

It's a little harder to get by without a job.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

96. The most important one

"If you don't do a good job of raising your children nothing else you do matters!" Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy

[noiretextatique]

101. parents do an important JOB...they keep the human race going

no society can continue to exist without the job that parents do...that of populating the next generation of people.
there are many jobs that people do that aren't paid by wages, e.g., caring for an elderly parent. sure it's a responsibility...but it's also WORK.
some people acutally volunteer for jobs that do not pay any money, because the benefits they receive from doing the work is intangible. that's what a lot of parents tell me about raising kids...it's hard work, but it's worth it.

[Sterling]

128. I think we have enough people in that industry already.

I don't see a great demand for new mouths to feed with what resources are left.

Now I can see points in history that having babies was in demand. Just not now or anytime in the forseeable future.

[noiretextatique]

139. that may be true...but people die

the ones already alive will die, so there is always a need for new people, overpopulation notwithstanding.

[MISSDem]

103. Not a job. If you can't afford to stay at home and raise

a child you shouldn't have one.

[IrateCitizen]

104. Motherhood and fatherhood are NOT jobs -- but they ARE work.

A job is something that you do in exchange for money. By this definition, neither motherhood nor fatherhood is a job.

However, that doesn't mean that it's not WORK. Because it is, and it's both hard and rewarding.

[noiretextatique]

121. unpaid jobs?

paid work? i don't see much difference.

[Butterflies]

106. I agree.

It annoys me when people say stay-at-home-mothers are "working in the home". They definitely have it easier than those of us who go out to work during the day and come home to take care of everything in the house in a few hours in the evenings. Their "working in the home" is considered a VACATION from work for me!

[wickywom]

112. Do you have any children?

[wickywom]

110. Neither motherhood nor fatherhood is a job...

but staying home to raise children is...


Otherwise it's being done by a daycare worker and I doubt anyone would argue about whether that is a job.

[ScreamingMeemie]

111. It is the most important JOB I have ever had in my life.

And I could care less what you would like to label it. Man, where's the old F off smiley when you need it?

[anarchy1999]

119. Thanks, Sterling. Long time no see. Important issue and I agree.

and I'm a mom. Went through it all, married, great home, good job, downsized, lost home, divorced, single parent, custody battles, out of custody parent.

Motherhood is not a JOB!

[greekspeak]

122. It is not a job, in the sense one is employed, but it is clearly hard work

That does not decrease the value of motherhood. In fact, a lot of women have given up jobs for the hard work and pain (and joys) of motherhood. Being a mother and not working at a salaried job is not a bad thing, nor is choosing one's job over raising children. Both are hard work, and both deserve all our respect.

[porkrind]

138. It's different than a job...

A job is ~40 hours a week and you get paid.

Motherhood, or parenthood in general (I'm a father) is much, much, more work, but quite rewarding.

Some people without kids tend to minimize the tremendous amount of work that being a parent is. Conversely, some parents like to make a big issue about how much work they do.

[China_cat]

140. Job implies pay

So no, being a mother is not a job. Unlike what some would have you believe, though, it IS work.

[Cabbage]

144. A job is a responsibility