I'm glad to hear an alternative to AA advertised on AAR.

[Ladyhawk]

Hehe...you've gotta love the title of this post if nothing else. OK, it's not that funny...perhaps mildly amusing.

I've always detested twelve-step programs that try to make you feel helpless, then make you put your trust in a higher power. Screw that! People are not helpless. They may need a bit of help, but true change can come by helping oneself.

Alcoholics Anonymous comes across as cult to me. And as an atheist, I acknowledge no "higher power," not even "the group"--or a petunia plant in a pot.

[Trajan]

1. Which group is it ? ...

Rational Recovery ? ...

[Ladyhawk]

11. You know, I am not sure. I was just glad to hear of an alternative. nt

[swag]

2. You know what program I think is great?

www.smartrecovery.org

I'm with you about AA, but I know several people whom it has helped, so I'll try to stay out of the ensuing flamefest.


What is being advertised on AAR?

[Ladyhawk]

12. I don't know if it was Smart Recovery

:)

I didn't mean for this to be flamebait, but my own experience with 12-step programs has been overwhelmingly negative. I could never wrap my mind around the "you are helpless and need a higher power" meme. (Don't you love how the word meme has almost become a meme on this forum?) :D

If 12-step programs work for you, fine. But I know a lot of people who have a real problem with them.

[Trajan]

13. I have never heard of these guys .....

Great website ....

I went to RR instead of AA ... Trimpey championed his AVRT method (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique), which seems similar to REBT (Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy) ....

I deeply appreciated Trimpey's contribution to obtaining treatment outside of the AA sphere .... Im glad to see others jumping on board as well ...

Im still clean after 10 years ....

[swag]

20. I like most of Trimpy, but when I first quit

and hit his later chapters, it just made me want to drink a lot.

So, I had to give him up.

But AVRT is good stuff, no doubt.

I still use it a lot today.

Good going on your success. And thanks for the words.

[donco6]

3. My friends in AA seem to substitute one crutch for another.

Now their whole lives revolve around AA stuff. They're ALWAYS going to be alcoholics (which I don't believe). I think it makes them very dependent upon the group, rather than on themselves. I just don't like what it's done to them over the years.

[RetroLounge]

5. "one crutch for another"

never mind...

RL

[RetroLounge]

4. Well, no one says you have to go to AA, do they?

It's not the only game in town, but it works for millions of people.

As long as *you* stay sober, I could care less where you attend or not. So why do YOU bad mouth something that tries to help other people stay alive and sober?

Resentments will get you drunk. Hope you don't...

RL

[Trajan]

7. You coming down pretty hard on this ....

I tried AA .... and it was generally useless ....

Furthermore ... MOST people who go to AA to quit using DONT quit using ... Their success rate is somewhere around 5%, I believe ...

Yeah: I wont insult AA ... but it certainly isnt worth demanding praise and adoration ...

Its GREAT that YOU stopped using with AA: that doesnt mean that others cannot find fault with the AA program ....

[RetroLounge]

10. Try re-reading my post before making assumptions

1) I never said in my post that I was in AA.

2) I said as long as people stay sober, it does not matter where they go.

3) Where did I demand praise and admiration in my post?

Your resentments are showing. Try not to drink over them.

RL

[Th1onein]

22. Wrong, wrong, and wrong again!

First of all, many judges ORDER people who commit alcohol-related crimes to attend AA. Although there are OTHER programs, the courts don't give you this information, most of the time, even when you ask for it. In addition to this sort of coercion, many parolees are ORDERED to attend so many months of AA meetings, and are given NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE.

As for "working for millions of people," since AA is "anonymous," they do not allow statistical studies to be done on whether or not their program works. So, they might help one person, or none, or many.

AND, in fact, AA, itself, commissioned a study a few years ago and the workers who did the study found that if one attended EVEN ONE AA meeting, that person had less chance of quitting drinking than someone who had not attended any meetings at all. AA dropped the study and fired the firm that was commissioned to do it.

AA has all of the earmarks of a cult, and it teaches people not to think critically, not to ask questions, and to exchange one crutch for another. These are not especially traits that an alcoholic, struggling to find answers to questions that STARTED them drinking in the first place, need.

[donco6]

6. Also, as will be evident here shortly,

AA members have a fanatical need to defend the organization. No dissent can be allowed. It reminds me so much of the fundie churches I used to go to.

[malachibk]

23. You, and other anti-AA folk need to get over yourselves...

I am not an alcoholic but I know MANY people who are sober because of AA and who are neither obsessed with the organization nor using it as a crutch.

What the hell gives you the right to disparage it? If it wasn't a good program for you, that's cool, but why belittle those whom it helps? Seems a bit closed-minded and rude.

I hear that fundies are pretty fond of behavior like that.

[Mikimouse]

8. Hmmmmm...even Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob suggested that it..

was not meant to be a way of life. Having said that, AA is a wonderful place to meet and speak with other people just like yourself, and who have experienced many of the same things. Kinda like DU in that respect (yeah, I know, a real extension). I did my 90 and 90 and experienced my 'epiphany', for which I am eternally grateful, especially now, 11 years, and two months (to the day) later. Sobriety is not one of those things that we should argue about, because it doesn't matter what journey you make, it just matters that you try and make one.

[myomy]

15. Well said. Why should it matter to anyone how one saves his own life?

AA has saved millions of lives. I now have 23+ years sober and havenÕt been to an AA meeting in many years but I certainly respect those who count on the help AA offers.

[Mikimouse]

18. I enjoyed my fellowship, but had to make a choice...

between going to the regular meetings and finishing my studies (one of my critically important classes was scheduled for the same time as the meeting). I figured that it was life on life's terms and went to the class. At that time I had four years. I give my chips away to others who are just starting out (my stepdaughter is one of them), and still carry my current one in my pocket all the time (just a reminder not to drink, right now). Congrats on 23+ years, that is terrific!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:party:

[robbedvoter]

9. Is that the woman who hypnotizes you into getting rich, spotting lies

cleaning your room, losing weight and beating depression? (don't hang out with depressed people - anti-depressants only make you kill yourself?)
That woman annoys me to the point of turning AAR off!
I wouldn't mind the get rich, lose weight con, but clinically depressed people getting off meds/terapy - she may have lives on her conscience!

[Ladyhawk]

14. Gee, I hope not!

I don't support the points of view you just mentioned. I am on anti-depressants. I believe there is a place for medications. While I think dependence on a higher power can be a crutch, medications are not. It would be like saying to a diabetic: "Man, stop injecting that insulin. It's just a crutch!" I'm diabetic, too, so I think I can use that metaphor without getting flamed. I hope.

Again, if AA worked for you, fine, but 12-step programs were a huge bummer for me. I just like the fact that there are alternatives for those of us who think 12-step programs are cult-like and weird.

[RetroLounge]

17. I am glad there are alternatives also.

I hope my posts did not come off wrong. Being sober is the most important thing, bar none.

But maybe you might consider that others who *have* been successful in a different program than you, for example, AA, might take it a bit less-than-gracious when being called a cult, cult-like, weird, and like a fundy church.

May you have another 24hrs...

RL

[Ladyhawk]

19. Well, the 12-step program I was exposed to did seem pretty whacky.

I'm just telling you how I viewed the experience and what my opinion of 12-step programs is.

It may not square with your opinion or experience, but if you feel that AA helped you, why should my opinion matter? I know the 12-step program didn't help me. That's my opinion.

RetroLounge, I'll keep you in mind because you are one of the few people I've encountered who feel AA was helpful for them. New information can change opinions. Until then, I think this is one of those things on which we can agree not to agree upon. :)

After all, cognitive therapy doesn't work for everyone...nor object/relations, nor Freudian, nor Jungian. Something that helped me might not do diddly for someone else. I will keep that in mind.

[JPace]

16. Most people addicted to alcohol are not ever going

to get over it. They suffer terribly and people who love
them suffer as much and sometimes more. I am for ANYTHING
that works to help them quit! To each his own, AA has a
great success rate, but its not for everyone. If you don't
like it don't go....but why be so critical of the program
and people who use it? Even if they go become dedicated to
the program is that not a much better life than wasting
away as a drunk?

[swag]

21. There is some body of research knowledge

that indicates that some models are more efficacious than the American.

This is true in many realms, of course.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. More Secular Support: http://unhooked.com

(My take? 12 step programs work for lots of people. Other people they don't work for. I'm certainly not going to slam AA, but I also don't buy into the "one size fits all" mentality some people have around it)

Here's another resource:

http://unhooked.com

---Lifering Secular Recovery.

(They used to be tied in with "Secular Organizations for Sobriety" but there were legal issues around that name.)

Meetings, support, knowledge, etc. Good people.

Another Option for folks.