OK, if the US isn't going to split into pieces, how do we heal?

[Ladyhawk]

A microcosm of the schism can be seen in my own family. My mother is a Christian Coalition fundy who loves Hannity. My brother is an Ayn Rand hard right winger whose god is greed, whose bible is Atlas Shrugged and whose prophet is Rush Limbaugh. I ended up in the liberal camp and have almost nothing in common with either of them.

I've decided I must emotionally secede from my family. It's not just the politics. They stand for everything I find horrific about human nature. Their politics are simply a reflection of their "screw you, I've got mine!" attitudes.

I can't change them. I can only change myself. And the only thing I can do is secede from the union (in baby steps).

So, if it's that hard on an individual basis, how much harder will it be on a national basis where we don't even have blood in common?

How can you build a stable bridge between such extremes when there is no common ground?

[SoCalDem]

1. How we heal it

SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Mon Oct-18-04 01:07 AM
Original message
The Great Divide, and how we heal it..

Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 01:27 AM by SoCalDem
As long as people are polarized around their own strident beliefs, and their views are reinforced daily...hourly on the radio and TV, there can be no rapprochement.

In the "olden days", BOTH parties actually did have the best interests of the country at heart.Their ways of achieving that were different, but they did not demonize their "opponents". When an opponent won an election, the candidates would shake hands, and their supporters would either celebrate or commiserate. They did not retreat and plot vengeance. The losers just vowed to try harder next time, and they went on with their lives.

What changed??

We DID. Money drives everything. Politicians know that they must pay the piper, if they are to ever get the massive sums needed to continually campaign for office.

Corporations, and their rich owners have the money, and they buy or rent the legislators to see to it that they are never held accountable for ANYTHING..

They dole out jobs, as they HAVE to, but they (the corporations) have no FEELING for their employees. The employees might as well be blocks of wood. Employees' sole purpose for being is to generate MONEY for everyone but themselves..

Politicians, more than anyone, know how to feather their own nests, and the public be damned..

Every so often there are a few politicians who truly try to expose the "game", and they are met with derision, attacks, and are driven from office if at all possible.,

The public would GO NUTS if they ever got a good look behind the curtain, so this is where the media helps out.. They fill our heads with fluff, and keep us ignorant, but well-entertained..
They help the politicians and corporations (who happen to OWN them) by NOT reporting the important things that we all need to know. They delight in stirring the pot. By keeping the 50% of the public on opposite sides of the other 50% , at all times, on every issue, they have carefully divided us, so that a unified voice is impossible...on ANYTHING..

If a girl in Ohio has an abortion, it does not impact a family in Missouri one teensy bit.

If two guys want to marry each other in San Francisco, it has ZERO impact on a farmer in Arkansas.

If every single person in Idaho owns 3 Uzis, a family in Maine is not impacted one iota.

If Every single member of Texarkana attends church for 3 hours a day,every day, that fact has no bearing on a family living in Florida.

The media wants us to think that each and every one of these examples is the MOST IMPORTANT THING ON EARTH, and everyone MUST have an opinion on them, and they MUST elect officials based on those issues.

They have trained us all to have incredibly short attention spans, so when they feel we have had "too much", they can always toss out Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryant, Martha Stewart, Scott Peterson, or the latest "blonde-woman/girl-in-distress". When that gets tiresome, we can tune in to see the latest shark attack, or bears in hot tubs, or water skiing squirrels.

They know that we are not "up to" handling the stuff that really would change our lives..

If we are the "people" in that "...of the people, by the people, and for the people..." thing , we are certainly not acting like it. We HIRE these bozos to do OUR business, and yet we are the most lenient "employers" on the planet.

We let them lie to us
We let them steal from us
We let them have primo health care, while we grovel for ours
We let them come and go as they please, whether or not they have done their work
We let them send our sons & daughters to die in foreign wars
(Their sons and daughters go to Harvard & Yale, while ours go to Fallujah & Kandahar)
We let them do the bidding of people who would do US harm
We let them set their own wages, and give them the power to hold ours down

Why do they get away with it?? Because we let them.. They know that we can never agree on enough issues to unify against their behavior.

Our only hope is for the Fairness Doctrine to be reinstated, and stridently enforced. It has taken 20-30 years to reach the place we occupy, and it will not be a fast turnaround, but eventually, people WILL get used to seeing BOTH sides again. It will ruffle feathers at first, but in the long run, it's our only hope.

There can still be "biased" reporting, and "slanted" journalism. Those are not bad in and of themselves. The difference would be that they would have to either identify themselves as such, OR provide EQUAL opposing views, right next to theirs..

People who hold opposing opinions are not necessarily "evil", and people with whom you agree, are not necessarily "good".. We just need to start hearing many voices again..

The internet is good, but it cannot be all we have to counterbalance the corporate media..

The corporate media/politicians/regulatory agencies have created the Franken-media-monster we live with today, and it's up to them to control that monster.

It's time for the bullshit to stop, and for the people we send to DC, to realize that they are our employees, not our masters.. We have needs, as a nation, those needs have been overlooked for far too long.

How can this be done?

The Mega-money MUST be stripped away from campaigning. It is disgusting to know that HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars are spent every few years, to elect a person to a $400K a year job, when there are kids sharing desks, and pencils...when there are teachers who are taking pay-cuts , just to keep their jobs...when there are people who have worked 40 years, only to discover that their pension is kaput.

Real campaign finance must be accomplished, regardless of how annoyed the corporations get.
Public financing of campaigns , with free equal time is the only solution.
Corporate Lobbying should be a felony
Single item legislation would eliminate pork.

It won't be easy, but once congress realizes that they work for US, and the media is supposed to keep tabs ON them, and not be compromised BY them, things might start to work again, and maybe the angry feelings would subside..

We all have more in common with each other, than we realize, and if we were all less stressed, perhaps we could manage to get along again..

Or maybe not.






http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2505314

[Selwynn]

9. Nice work - I wish I had more time to comment

There are a few minor points where I think I slightly disagree, but since I don't have much time, they are so minor that they really don't take away from the essential point of that post.

I feel that is, essentially, just about right.

[reprobate]

14. You put your finger on all but one of the problems.

I mean the absolute nastiness that the far right has used to set a tone of attack on anyone who disagrees. Although that may be just a tool for them. It has spread to the entertainment media as well. Violence is now required in almost all tv and movie plots in order for them to show a profit. Our children grow up subjected to viewing thousands of acts of violence, even to the "good guys" being required to kill and maim just to win their arguement.

Meanwhile lies, spin, and obfuscations are now accepted as 'normal' political speech. And the media raised not one objection. Just how did we let this happen? Few raised their voices in opposition, and those that did allowed themselves to be shouted down by the media.

Sorry, but I have little hope of a reunited america until the masses of disenfranchized (and by that I mean everyone who doesn't own a politician) realize what has happened to them and copy the french and russians and even our beginnings.

[Zomby Woof]

34. hate to nitpick

No wait, I actually love it.

There have been equally poisonous times in our political and social history in times past. In fact, there has been much worse. Read about the Federalist campaign against Jefferson during the 1800 election, or the Republican smear tactics during the McCarthy era (Nixon's congressional campaign - "Pink Lady", etc.), or that unpleasantness of the 1860's... Lincoln "the baboon"...

Fisticuffs on the floor of Congress during Daniel Webster's and Henry Clay's day...

"Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion", google that one.

The Know-Nothing Party and its nativism.

Poll taxes.

Jim Crow.

It's historical myopia to think there is something unique or unprecedented about the level of bile and division these days. America has always had an uneasy tension between 'court' and 'country' - the urban vs rural, the sophisticate vs the rube.

It just sucks more because we are living in one those cycles now.

[TahitiNut]

35. But they didn't have nuclear missiles and a globe-spanning military.

All the "it's been worse before" seem to miss this. This country is the sole 'superpower' and the people now obsessed with owning and controlling it have global appetites. That's not just a difference in scale. We're an adolescent nation with weapons that can destroy the world ten times over. Lord of the Flies.

[serryjw]

40. I agree BUT

In the past it didn't affect the average person. (except for Jim Crow laws).Even as recent as 40 years ago, people got married, raised their children and worked for the same company for 40 years. EVERYTHING that happens now in DC to Afghanistan affects us. This global world with instant communications is the blessing and the problem. HOW different would your life been IF we didn't have the INTERNET? You would read a couple of corporate propaganda magazines every week and go on with your life. This is now front and center and WE can't turn away.
When I was fundraising for the dems I knew we had to take back the WH. It never occurred to me that Bushit & Co were involved with 9-11. The I read WAR ON FREEDOM and my life changed. I KNEW I was bearing witness to history and I couldn't allow this evil to go unchecked.
Can we heal? Sure, BUT what it would take will NEVER happen. Do you think that the multinationals are going to have a tug of conscience?
Are the fundies going to FINALLY listen to our side? Will the multinational Media giants finally produce fair & balanced coverage?Will the fundies understand that ROE and gay marriage are civil rights issues?

Sorry, I am not optimistic

[LiberalAndProud]

2. We absolutely have to break up the huge media lock on talk radio.

Air America is a start, but I can't get it on the air here. If I don't want to listen to the filthy hate speech spewed out on radio, I have to turn on the music. That's my only option. And I probably have to ignore the DJs between tunes.

I don't necessarily want to silence Rush, Sean, Michael, et al, but if differing opinions have no voice, the neo-conservative talk show puppets need to be gagged -- and now! The propaganda machine is out of hand. Reasonable people become unreasonable when they listen to that trash day-in and day-out and never hear a word of articulate dissent.

[cosmicvortex20]

3. You dont want the government controlling speech...

Im telling you, thats a nasty slippery slope, especially considering whos in office.

Its better to just let both sides air their ideas and let the people decides. The "fairness doctrin" only squelched freedom of speech and surpressed political discussing in the country when it was in place.

Hardly anyone discussed it on tv or radio out of fear of getting hammered by "da law". Protect your civil liberties, dont hand them over.

As for not listening to hate radio... theres 2 dials on a radio....

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BillZBubb]

17. Government won't "control speech". That's a canard.

The public airways are just that--public. They have been taken over by a virulent, anti free speech cabal. The only speech on the radio dial is hard right, hate radio. There is no balance. It has become a 24/7 propaganda arm for the right wing.

It is time to use the airways for the public good. That means those who are granted rights to use part of the spectrum have responsibilities to present all sides of issues, not exclusively the right wing interpretation.

That is not diminishing free speech in any sense. Quite the opposite.

[reprobate]

20. "You dont want the government controlling speech..."

Sorry but your statement that the fairness doctrine stifles freedom of speech is just plain wrong. It's obvious that you were not around when it was in play. I personally remember when even the local stations had editorial commentary and actively sought opposing viewpoints and gave them equal time. Its the way political discours was done for generations in america, until raygun cancelled it.

In fact, it was the nullifuying of the fairness doctrine which gave the radical right the chance to take over political discussion in this country.

[LiberalAndProud]

21. Agreed. And I use the off switch liberally. I am not advocating

controlling speech, but limiting ownership. Clear Channel and similar mega-corporations have hijacked us. I don't believe that the far-right leaning talk radio is strictly a demand issue. If that were true, Air America would have better airwave distribution. (Thank goodness for the internets.)

[librechik]

23. lack of regulation is just lawlessness. We're letting those sharpsters

rob us blind and stuff their propoganda down our throats. WE are the government, and it is up to us to make it work for us instead of a bunch of rich cronies. Government is the way of peace instead of slaughter. We must use the power of government to counteract the power of the corporations, or we will be skulls under the pavement, Terminatorville.

Yeah, and THAT's how you protect your civil liberties. You get up and USE the govenrmnet, cuz you sure as hell are never going to make it disppear. Wake up! The fairness doctrine was fair! What do we have now?

[camero]

27. Bye

[Sugarbleus]

26. A breakup of Media in all it's abhorent glory is ESSENTIAL

Check out this link on American Fascism. Compelling and informative.

Corporatism=Fascism

BREAK THEM ALL UP.........MEDIA INCLUDED.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2519724

[Columbia]

4. Easy

When Kerry becomes President and proves to be a true uniter and not a diveder. When he crushes terrorism while improving our image abroad. When he saves Social Security and balances the budget. When he creates millions of jobs, reduces outsourcing, and jumpstarts the economy. When our civil rights are restored and protected from religious fanaticism.

Basically, when America and the world become a better place from a Kerry presidency. And even freepers will have to acknowledge it.

[BillZBubb]

19. Like they did when Clinton was president?

Kerry could single handedly save the earth from a catastrophic meteor strike and the Freepers would still go after him.

Dream on, dude. This problem is way, way deeper than what any single office holder can do.

[leftofthedial]

5. I'm at a loss, hence my earlier thread about US splitting in two

I know it's the "heat of battle" right now, but I can't imagine ever "getting over" the 2000 coup or ever forgiving the bushgang or their supporters for what they've done to America and the world.

[cosmicvortex20]

6. Break out!

You need to slip out of this hermetically sealed DU community sometimes. I have friends from about every poltical, religious, and philisophic persuation. I like DU mind you, but its hardly the only place I frequent...

[leftofthedial]

8. It's not a DU thing

I've been in DU more the last two days than I have for the last nine months because I have a rotten stinking cold.

But usually, I am out interacting with a pretty large cross section of the public working my three Bush economy jobs.

[Selwynn]

11. I think that's very sound advice.

I love DU - it is a great place and a great community, despite all the election tension.

But I couldn't agree more about the need to "get out." I too have friends from all over the spectrum, and I've realized how much "iron sharpens iron" - in other words, how much exposure to a broad diversity of perspectives really, really helps me solidify my own convictions.

[Selwynn]

7. Does anyone want to heal?

What I mean is, do "we" have any inclination or intention of trying to "heal" with the people that we regularly say we hate? There's plenty of "I hate all republicans" sentiment - does healing only include a "final solution?" Do we only envision a more united country and a more elevated level of public discourse when there are no people left who disagree with each other?

I'm not making a moral judgment in this post - I'm really only echoing your own question. Even if it is appropriate and right to be very polarized against political opposites, it doesn't seem to create a foundation for any kind of harmony.

You have to have a willing partner for peace and healing - it seems like a lot of people on both sides, though in my estimation clearly even more on the neo-right, who have no willingness or intention of ever "healing" and coming together as Americans.

Obama talked about how there aren't red states and blue states, but noone on any sides of the political spectrum doesn't really believe that. I may be naive, but I personally am not seeking to eliminate opposition or destroy all who disagree with me. What I desire more than anything is a new kind of openness and honesty in genuine debate, a willingness to play by the "rules" and the parameters of the Constitution and the bill of rights, and a level of integrity to be honest about what the positions really are.

I really don't mind opposition, it is one of the hallmarks of an open society and I believe in that. What I want is a willingness to talk and listen to each other and a shared foundation - that foundation being a desire to do what's best for the nation.

That's all idealistic and probably unrealistic. Which makes me feel like I'm in a tough spot. I don't want to eliminate the right. That's just not my "perfect" world. What I want is a return to a certain degree of public decency and integrity - statesmanship, I guess is a good word - where we have real, honest debates about our disagreement in the spirit of Lincoln/Douglas.

Don't know how to get there.

[Ladyhawk]

13. Thank you for your thoughtful post. :)

"I'm not making a moral judgment in this post - I'm really only echoing your own question. Even if it is appropriate and right to be very polarized against political opposites, it doesn't seem to create a foundation for any kind of harmony."

I long for reconciliation with my family and friends, but every time I've tried it, trust is broken again. I'm afraid the same thing is happening on a much larger scale. Liberals let the conservatives walk all over them. Now many liberals are feeling that the * administration is the last straw and they just aren't willing to give the radical right another chance.

"You have to have a willing partner for peace and healing - it seems like a lot of people on both sides, though in my estimation clearly even more on the neo-right, who have no willingness or intention of ever 'healing' and coming together as Americans."

I know and it hurts to see this. I've grown very pessimistic about human nature. I've tried and tried to heal the rift in my family. My new counselor asked me, "Why do you keep going back to the kinds of people who hurt you?" In other words, why do I keep thinking I can be friends with narrow-minded, right-wing fundamentalists? I'm used to fundies. They're familiar: painful, but familiar. It's like an abused woman returning to her abuser over and over.

Again, maybe the same thing is happening on a national level. This feels like a continuation of the problems that sparked the Civil War. Will it never end? Or are we doomed to eventually enter a cycle of neverending violence such as exists in Israel?

I don't know...maybe at some point we can at least agree to disagree.

[goforit]

15. With a good dose of sunshine and perseverence to clean house!!

[camero]

16. To realize that we the people hold the power, not the few

Here's one link that explains that:



http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/Revolution/America.htm

[jdj]

18. For another idea

I would say you don't need to change.

I am trying to do the same thing. I am back living practically with my family (renting on their property) after a 19 year absence, and it has been an eye-opener, I have found I only remembered about 50% of the dysfunction, so what this has taught me is that i need to go alot easier on myself, inasmuch as I grew up in some sick,sick, shit.
It explains a whole lot.

If you're not offended, I would say to pray for them, that's all I can do for mine.

And, my personal torch to carry is that churches are having an obscene effect on politics right now and that needs to be stopped. Protestant Christianity is a mafia in this country, and these folks need to re-learn their respect for the freedom of religion this country was founded on, so I will be positively elated if John Catholic Kerry is elected this term. This country needs to be reminded there is more than one branch of Christianity.

[vinnievin777]

22. We can all heal

Because if the intelligent sane minds come together we could make the ignorant follow just like the hateful minds that come together to divide us. But more so because we are right.

Vinnie Vin
http://www.vinnievin.com

[sampsonblk]

24. It has to get worse first

Right now, we have ONE extreme - the rightists. Those who should be on the left are busy compromising their beliefs away. And you think THIS is bad? When we on the left stand up for what we believe in, its going to be like 1860 all over again.

Should we continue to back down? I say not.

[Kanary]

25. I agree it will get worse first.... maybe for a different reason.

This country has become very bombastic in it's rugged individualism. Most people anymore seem to want to be Archie Bunker or Rush Limbaugh, and try to come up with the most outrageous putdowns. That will *never* lead to any kind of healing. But, people haven't yet hurt enough from the divisions to be able to admit to themselves that they actually need each other, and the need is great enough to give up the triumphs over others by "wit" (translated: putdowns.)

Until that happens, and we all recognize how much we need each other, it will just keep escalating.

:shrug: :( :shrug:

Kanary

[m berst]

29. they are over-matched and frightened

I work in agriculture, and most of my family farmer clients are Republican voters. I have been in the homes of hundreds of farmers, met their families, gone to church with them and consider many of them close friends. They are good people - kind and generous - yet they vote for political platforms that are based on greed and hate. It is an interesting paradox.

Here is what I see - they are simple and somewhat unsophisticated, but not stupid. This is a choice - they want a life in tune with the land and work that is challenging and straightforward, and they tend to be loners and dreamers. They see their world - working the land, producing food and honoring farming traditions and practices that go back centuries - as the real world, and the world of the intellectuals, bankers, politicians and academics as a world that is not to be trusted. I have a lot of sympathy for their point of view on this.

So there is a defensiveness, and they yearn for simplicity in their lives and the stability of tradition, and they have an ethic that values honest work that contributes to society in an unambiguous way.

They don't so much reject liberalism as they feel rejected by it, and that is something that doesn't often occur to us. They are sensitive to being seen as hayseeds and as backwards - which is unfair and untrue. When liberals approach them with condescending and complicated arguments, it drives them towards the Republicans.

I was sitting around a table last January with a bunch of farmers - conservative, Republican voters - and the subject of politics came up and the Presidential race. I laid low for a while. Pretty soon the gun control issue came up. The usual railing against liberals.... and I chimed in - "it's a non issue" - and the whole room falls silent - "just like gay rights and abortion. Gun control is a non-issue. A President can't do anything about those issues and has more important things to worry about."

Dead silence again with 10 faces staring at me now. One of the guys finally says "what would you recommend" and I imagined an unspoken "you smarty pants pointy-headed liberal you" after that.

"Easy. Those are local issues. Here, guns are no problem. Maybe in Detroit they are. Different community, different needs. If the mayor of San Francisco wants to marry gays, what do we care here? Live and let live."

Nods all around the table and hearty agreement. "You know? Damn! He's right!"

OK! Next supposedly insurmountable, unanswerable right wing argument?

Then we could get to the really good stuff - like how the bank and Monsanto are screwing them and about how they aren't going to send their boys to no I - rack, by God, that's all about those greedy bastards in the White House getting their hands on the oil.

Now we're talkin'!

And yet so many progressives think these "rednecks" and "sheeple" can't be brought over to support a progressive platform. We who are urban intellectuals, well read and knowledgeable, are abrogating our leadership obligations when we don't go the extra mile to reach and communicate with the working people and the poor. Of course we know more than they do! That goes without saying. But how wise are we when we lecture down to them and are unwilling to walk a mile in their shoes? This means we need to respect and accept people as they are, not always prove them wrong. This means looking into people's hearts and making a connection on a true human level, not on an intellectual level, and especially not on a "gotchya you stupid redneck" basis.

I can't convert any of these farm guys and gals into Ann Arbor liberal intellectuals - it just ain't going to happen. But, they won't vote for Bush after I have had a chance to talk to them, and they would support a progressive populist program in a heartbeat if we, the intelligentsia and the political leadership, were offering that instead of cerebral, academic arguments that support programs that cater to corporations and only address the needs of middle class suburbanites.

(du-ers - forgive me for being so opinionated as such a new member, but I feel very strongly about this)

[crickets]

31. No problem

There's a tendency to want to shout down the wedge issues sometimes. Sounds like you did an excellent job quietly waiting for the right moment and saying just the right thing.

Welcome to DU, m berst! :toast:

[Kanary]

32. We have a lot to talk about -- hope you are still reading this thread!

First, I very much appreciate your commitment to actually *listening* to people, rather than lecturing. I get very frustrated with that here!

Second, I very much appreciate your inclusion of poor folk in the category of those who need for us to reach out and go the "extra mile", as you put it. That is not only on target, but exactly the reason why the Democratic party *used* to be in power, and had so much influence........ they knew who their natural constituents are, and sought their votes. I'm so discouraged and disgusted with the current attitude of the Dems, dissing and dismissing poor folk, without any attempt to understand.

Third, I'm in complete agreement that all those we have lost to the RW would support a progressive populist "program", as you put it. That's why I so strongly supported Dennis Kucinich, and why I still do. Dennis is able to talk to those you describe, precisely because he *does* listen, and is very adept at building coalitions. I have no doubt that Dennis could get the farmers to understand urban poor folk, and etc and etc and etc.

Because I'm in the category of the urban poor, I will tell you my response to what I see with the farmers and ranchers. I used to very much sympathize with their situation, because I saw them as in much the same situation as I am, and that we had much in common. Yet, I kept hearing very tough and uncaring responses from them about urban poor and other folk, and I finally just couldn't keep doing the one-way street anymore. In some ways, I think they have contributed to their own situation by cutting themselves off from others who would be their natural allies. I know that I just don't have the energy or the resources to care about people who can't care about me, and I suspect that is not unique to me. :)

I appreciate that they are the group you are most concerned with. I wish I heard people on this forum who have chosen poor folk to be those they are most concerned with. Mostly, we are just on our own.

I also want to make it clear, since you were replying to me, that when you addressed some of your concerns in a persoanl way to me, it almost puts me in the position of having to defend and explain myself that I'm not one of those wyou are speaking about. I hope you can understand that *I* don't need much of this explained to me -- I have been one trying to get others to understand the very things you're saying!!

I'm frustrated that I cannot contact you at DU, because of your "low post count" (pah!), and you can't contact me, so there is no way, unless you happen to see my response, for you to know that we do share some very important ideals.

I hope to hear lots more from you!

Kanary

[Columbia]

33. Excellent, excellent post!!!

I predict you will be quite the asset to DU!

Welcome!!! :toast:

[juajen]

36. What a delightful post!

You are so right. So many times people with a lesser education are looked down on by ones that are blessed. It seems to never occur to us to ask why they are uneducated, and even, if they aren't smarter than we are in so many ways. We seem to consider ourselves intellectually superior. As this comes across easily, simple, but good people, resent us right off the bat. Respect for their contribution to our society should be a given; and ours to them. The opposite is and has happened.

A degree hanging on a wall does not make a person superior to one who has Jesus on the cross hanging on their wall, or a velvet Elvis. All of our people want the same things; homes to shelter them; food to eat and a security that comes from knowing that justice is a given.

It's that justice that is absent from our country that is driving us apart, and it doesn't matter if you're a pub, dem or greenie. Everyone wants clean water to drink that is free to all, as well as clean air. Everyone wants to feel safe in their homes and communities. Also, believe it or not, everyone wants to feel that their elected officials are always truthful.

This corporate greed, political dishonesty, and outright chicanery has distressed all people, dems and pubs and greenies. We have much more in common than not. This distance from each other has been perpetuated by the hateful discourse on talk radio, the dishonesty of the media in general, who almost always have a hidden agenda and by our fear-driven society; but, mostly by corporate greed, which all sides agree is the major issue in our country today.

The corporate masters do not want us to feel or acknowledge our commonality; but, because it suits their purposes, they want us to hate each other so we cannot have the strength in numbers to defeat them. We are all the victims of a hate-mongering elite; they're called CEO's and THEY ARE GEORGE BUSH'S BASE. More importantly, though in a lesser way, THEY ARE ALSO MOST OF CONGRESS'S BASE. I didn't use Kerry here, because in my heart, I hope he is not going to bow to the corporations. We have yet to judge him. But, based on the good things that Teresa does with her money, she recognizes this commonality; and, I know, that Kerry does want to unite us. How well he does depends a lot on us, and our ability to heal and try to find the good in people we perceive to be our enemy.

We can come together again, as in some olden days, but it will take a lot of work. They have had years to break us up, and we didn't lift a finger, in most cases, to stop them; families and friends divided and rarely admitting that there is good on the other side.

As Kerry says, We Can Do Better, and we must.

[area51]

37. Welcome

Welcome to DU, m berst.

[m berst]

38. thank you so much

Thank you, everyone, for the very warm welcome to DU. I am so busy on three other boards - for Wes, Howard and Dennis supporters - that I have not posted here until recently, although I have been reading daily for months now.

I have to smile reading your response, Kanary, since I lived in the ghetto in Detroit for over 20 years before I moved to farm country. No, I was not including you among those to whom I was referring - far from it - and I didn't mean to put you on the defensive. Over the months your viewpoint has resonated very strongly with me. I was talking to those who give you a hard time - in fact, I finally registered because I wanted to lend support to your view. Your voice is a little quieter and more subtle than some of the other things happening here, and it can get drowned out and pushed to the side.

Feel free to contact me at my Clark board -
http://www.thegeneralconversation.com/board/

or at the Kucinich board-
http://us.denniskucinich.us

I am mberst on both boards. (I am mberst here from months ago, too, but I can't remember my password so I re-registered as m berst)

Farmers indifference to the plight of the urban poor - great strides are being made there, although as you recognize we have a long ways to go. We have been very successful using the Internet to connect up minorities and urban people with (mostly white) farmers. Sometimes a simple thing can make a big difference. For example, I was shooting a grade school orchard tour for a client once, and there was one African American student in the crowd. I made sure that she and her parents were in some of the photos of apple-picking, the hay ride etc. and we got a photo on the home page of the grower's website. It really was a miracle - that photo signaled that people of color were welcome, and urban school districts started to call and book tours. It made a big difference in the attitudes of the grower and his employees to meet and get to know people from the city who they otherwise would just have had no contact with, and it opened up new horizons for the urban kids to get out and see a working farm. Little things can lead to big results.

juajen, Sugarbleus - it means a lot to me to know that I am not the only one seeing what is at stake and what is needed. Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

area51, Columbia - thanks for the kind words and the warm welcome. You guys are great!

[Sugarbleus]

28. We cannot heal unless REAL change happens...

That change is going to piss off a lot of people....maybe even get violently ugly.

There is much more at stake in America than republican vs democrat. We are being taken over by corporatism, power mongers, and they ultimately DO NOT CARE about the common man. We the people do not figure into their plans. As long as the American Fascist state exists, there will be no healing. The ultra ultra RW will continue, with wild abandon, to twist the truth, to wrestle for power, and poison the minds of their blind followers.
...................

I'm feeling a tiny bit of division in my own family, but that's just too bad. If they can't see that their twisted political ideals are dangerous to Democracy and the everyday citizen, then I'll go on without them ...perhaps our actions can save the place, even our bullheaded families, whether they participate or not!

FIRST: Get Kerry elected. Kerry will stem the bleeding and give us time to rethink what kind of country we really want: A runaway, greedy, fascist corporate "state", or a decent fully functioning Democracy with all the people's best interests considered.

[Lexingtonian]

30. some of it's going to be easy, some of it really brutal

You seem to have pretty typical, generational-ish, split in your family. Your mom wants to go back to the 19th century-ish picket fence Mayberry America where all people are nice and go to church- or burn in Hell. Your brother wants to live in America of 1968-200x forever, a time of cultural civil war dominated by plutocracy and immoralists and opportunism. You, however, think (like I suppose most of us) that there's civilization ahead for us yet, hope for a future that is different in form- and in some ways substance- from the present. That's the three archetypical reactions to the present several decades of transition from a pseudo-European society to a genuinely American one.

There are a lot of people out there who have made exactly these choices too. But most of them (dare I say: us) are somewhere on the continuum between them.

The blunt answer is that a lot of the people committed to truly, deeply, outdated or terribly wrongful notions of the world are kind of hopeless. Their fight with the world of the present and the future is not going to end, many won't even admit much of an armistice. Their misunderstandings and miscommitments will only end when they're six feet under- and some might carry it on in the form of foundations and failed children. But we can defeat them politically and pay them off a bit, and they might give things something of a rest.

People like your brother are probably adaptable and convertable. They'll resist the changes with all their might and beyond any decency, but when they feel defeated they'll pick themselves up out of the dust and join the winning side and claim never to have been part of the wrongdoing (which in their eyes was remarkably minimal)- as long as they can go back to making money and feeding their vanities. After a while they might truly believe it.

I like what 'm berst' has to say. That's my experience also- there are just distances of understanding, accidental more than intentional, that are small but have been exploited as fully as possible by the people who profit from keeping people ignorant of their best interests and potential allies. Rural people actually have a very acute sense of what things are really changing and often understand why, and are certainly not regressive individually, but there is always The Code of their locale which must be observed if they want to be part of the chain of people helping each other out. And The Code is very easily skewed by traditional prejudices; even if only a few people really are strong reactionaries of some traditional kind, as long as they are considered moderately sane the local Code conforms to them rather than the other way around. It's a defect born of respect for Tradition, due or undue. Their real problem is the colonialism imposed on them, the economic chains and the information/education disparities that still exist.

So I'm inclined to believe that when the 'liberal' side forms a genuine, unshakeable, majority, the present alliance of 'conservatives' will break up into Dead Enders and people who, while they can't agree with everything the present society has as forms, are genuinely quite tolerant and pragmatic. I'd believe that the remaining Christian Right base tries to negotiate a separate peace of some kind and gets out of national politics; the theocrats are power-addicted, though, so it won't come without great internal fighting. The Republican Party is going to have to reformulate itself as what it has been for most of its history, as the economic party advancing the interests of money and the wealth-centered establishments. But this diseased worship and bad emulation of the past- it has just about run its course. %$*&ing finally, after holding up so much of our lives, if I may say so.

[porphyrian]

39. Justice and Responsibility

If we introduce these concepts into our government, many of our problems will be solved.

[helnwhls]

41. Here here!