E-mail I sent to my college roomie (who's almost a Freeper)

[knitter4democracy]

I get stupid e-mails from my college roommate occasionally, you know, the kind the really conservative Christians send around. We went to an evangelical Christian college, and she's gone deeper into right-wing Christianity while I haven't. I finally got sick of it, and this is the e-mail I sent back:

Dear Friend,

As much as I like hearing from you, please remove me from your e-mail forwarding list. David and I are Democrats and firmly believe that the separation of church and state is good for this country. Yes, Washington was a Christian, but most of the founding fathers weren't. Jefferson crossed out all of Jesus's words in his copy of the Bible, which you can see at Monticello. He was a Deist, as was Franklin and most of the others. The Puritans came to our shores to flee religious persecution, and I think it is wrong for us Christians in the "moral majority" to shove our faith down everyone's throats. In fact, I think it hurts the furthering of the Kingdom of God when we attack those who disagree with us. Many choose not to be Christian because they have been hurt by Christians--how are we treating our neighbors? Is it really love when we force them to pray to our God or make them try to ignore references to our God and Saviour everywhere?

Of course, being Eastern Orthodox, I am aware that there are people in your church who would say that David and I aren't even Christians anymore, that the Orthodox Church is leading its followers to hell, etc., etc. (that is, if they even know our church exists). Maybe that's why I'm a little sensitive. I think it's also that I've listened to too many people who will never give their hearts to God because of what's been said and done to them in the name of Jesus. If the shoe were on the other foot, if our government promoted Islam or some other faith, how would we react?

I know your church has helped you get through a very hard time in your life and has supported you and your husband in a myriad of ways. I honor them for that. Our church has done the same for us. Please, however, don't forget to analyze what they say or do to make sure it really is of Christ.

I'm sure, as conservative as your church is, that your pastor and other lay leaders are telling everyone to vote for Bush, but please do some research into the President and see if you can agree that he really is a good Christian. Abortions are up under his administration after a ten year downtrend (they were down 17.4% by 2000, and now they're going up in most states, 11.3% in Michigan alone) according to a Christian ethics prof at Fuller Theological Seminary in his article in Sojourner Magazine this month. We have over 6000 injured and dead Americans in the war in Iraq and tens of thousands of Iraqi dead (it took us only 18 months to hit the 1000 dead soldiers mark--it took just over two years for us to hit that mark in Vietnam). Ohio and Michigan have lost tens of thousands of jobs, as has the entire country, so that this president has lost net jobs--the first since Hoover. We had a surplus and now we don't--the deficit is bigger than the one our nation ran up during WWII, Vietnam, or the Cold War, with billions going to Halliburton (Cheney's old friend in which he still owns a lot of stock) and other companies profiteering off of the backs of our good men and women soldiers. Check out anysoldier.us and read how our soldiers don't even have the basics they need in Afghanistan and Iraq--things like scrubs, laundry facilities for the medical teams, medicine, or the appropriate clothes. It made me cry when I saw how even the medical teams are undersupported. How is that for a Christian president? He even told Pat Robertson that we wouldn't have any casualties in Iraq!

There's a lot of information that is not being shared in the mainstream media, but that doesn't make it untrue. We need to remember that our nation was founded by believers in liberty and justice for all--not just those who agree or toe the line. We need to fight for our nation's Constitution and rights, not that "under God" stays in the Pledge (the Pledge was written by a Communist, and that phrase was added in the fifties during the Cold War frenzy--it's not sacrosanct). We need to fight for all our neighbors, not against them and pass some amendment that limits rights for anyone. Instead of letting someone use our faith to blind us to reality, we need to stay in prayer, listen to what Jesus says in the Bible, and then do whatever we need to in order to take care of the least of these and fight for our neighbors.

Blessings to you and your family,
Your Friend

Was this a bad idea? I'm just so sick of that right-wing crap.

[trotsky]

1. Very well stated.

More Christians like yourself need to speak up. I'm very glad you did.

[knitter4democracy]

2. Thank you

I started feeling guilty that I might hurt her feelings, but then again, she never worried about mine. You should've seen the e-mail (the one how "laus deus" is on top of the Washington Monument and how all these Christian references are inside of it, which goes to show how we are a "Christian" country, blah, blah, blah).

[Eumenides]

3. Beautiful response

You should send her the bumpersticker Sojourner's magazine is distributing: God is not a republican or a democrat.

[Upfront]

4. Just Fine

You absolutely nailed it for me. My wife and I had started to attend a local church but after they started to promote B### we were gone. We can't bring our selves to try again. If the kind of things that come from these people is Gods way, we will find another way.

[Alleycat]

5. Wonderful

The wording you used was great. It neither condemed their religion or beliefs but maybe it will open their eyes. I am also so sick of hearing the so called Christians talk. I am a Catholic and by many of these fundies and right wingers I am not considered a Christian. I really take offense to that. I do not wear my religion on my sleeve. I fully believe it is a private matter. I respect others religions and beliefs but stop trying to convert me or preach to me or worse offend my beliefs. Everyone is free to worship as they choose or not choose but don't tell me on a constant basis about it. I find people who talk this way to be the biggest bigots and hypocrits. I had an uncle who would do the same. He only thought a person was valuable to society if you wer a white, male hetrosexual, all the others were useless. Woman were ok with him if they stayed home and had babies. He used every derogatory name imaginable but dam it he never missed church on Sunday!!

[KurtNYC]

6. Not a bad idea at all

It lays out your position without attacking her.

Sounds like your friend would agree with Mark Twain's strawman statement: "Nuthin' so needs reformin' as other people's habits."

Whether or not it will stop her spam is another question.

[Gruenemann]

7. Mistake re Jefferson's Bible

Jefferson didn't 'cross out' what Jesus said. Quite the opposite. He cut out what Jesus said and pasted it elsewhere to make his own version of the bible. Here's part of an introduction to the Jefferson Bible:

Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter to William Canby, "Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus." He described his own compilation to Charles Thomson as "a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen." He told John Adams that he was rescuing the Philosophy of Jesus and the "pure principles which he taught," from the "artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms as instruments of riches and power for themselves." After having selected from the evangelists "the very words only of Jesus," he believed "there will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."

[knitter4democracy]

19. Thank you

Wow. I had never heard that he'd put them in another book. I will make sure to send a correction. Thank you!

[FDRrocks]

26. You can buy it on Amazon

It's been on my to-read list for a while.

[IdaBriggs]

8. Love it! Yeah! Nominated! Kick! nt

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

9. That was good letter.

I'm sure your friend will understand what you are saying. You don't sound like you are insulting your friend. They will probably be receptive to your message in some way.

I like this line of your letter...
"Many choose not to be Christian because they have been hurt by Christians--how are we treating our neighbors? Is it really love when we force them to pray to our God or make them try to ignore references to our God and Saviour everywhere?"

This is so true. As much as I like some of the moral teachings of Christianity, I refuse to call myself a Christian. I don't want to be associated with Christians because I think many of them these days are hypocrites. Many of them act like they are morally superior, when they actually are no better than anyone else. There is too much literal interpretation of the Bible happening, and I don't think it was meant to be taken literally. I am also turned off by the many Christians who try to shove their religion down everyone's throat. That is no way to get people to want to be a member of the religion. Christians need to stop trying to control everyone. A better way to spread the message would be to become friends with non-Christians, instead of enemies. Being friends requires being accepting of other people's faults, instead of being judgmental and condemning people for their perceived faults. Frankly, scaring people into becoming Christian with the threat of Hell doesn't work. It is the same as insulting someone, and then trying to get them to listen to some point you have to make. No one will listen to you after you insult them. I wish Christians would figure this out.

[buckettgirl]

10. something else to send to roomie and other RW Christians

I found an interesting article linked from www.democrats.com

It has to do with what Christ stands for and doesn't stand for... I found it interesting to read that, of course, no one can justify their reasons for war (and keeping Dubya in office to support the war)with Christianity.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=38676

Conference Call: 200 Christian Theologians and Ethicists Question the Nation's "Theology of War" and the Ethics of War on Terrorism

10/22/2004 11:06:00 AM

To: Assignment Desk, Daybook Editor, Religion Reporter

Contact: Deryl Davis, 202-328-8842 ext. 214 or [e-mail], Deanna Murshed, 202-328-8842 ext. 257 or [e-mail] both of Sojourners

News Advisory:

As the debate over the war on terrorism continues, 200 Christian theologians and ethicists today issued a new "Confession." Because of a deep and growing concern about an emerging national "theology of war," the increasingly frequent language of "righteous empire," and official claims of "divine appointment" for a nation in a "war" on terrorism, more than 200 seminary and college professors have signed "Confessing Christ in a World of Violence."

A media conference call with the initiators of the confession will be held today at 2 p.m. EDT on 866-865-2701, Code: 104238


Jim Wallis, editor of Sojourners, explained: "A climate in which violence is too easily accepted, and the roles of God, church, and nation too easily confused, calls for a new confession of Christ. No nation-state may usurp the place of God." The statement identifies five points that are central for followers of Jesus, and rejections of the current teachings that nullify those points.

The key points of the confession are:

-- Jesus Christ knows no national boundaries. We reject the false teaching that any nation-state can ever be described with the words, "the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it."

-- Christ commits Christians to a strong presumption against war. We reject the false teaching that a war on terrorism takes precedence over ethical and legal norms.

-- Christ commands us to see not only the splinter in our adversary's eye, but also the beam in our own. We reject the false teaching that America is a "Christian nation," representing only virtue.

-- Christ shows us that enemy-love is the heart of the gospel. We reject the false teaching that any human being can be defined as outside the law's protection.

-- Christ teaches us that humility is the virtue befitting forgiven sinners. We reject the false teaching that those who are not for the United States politically are against it.

The statement concludes: "When the church is in danger of being co-opted by a theology of nationalism and militarism, we must faithfully confess Christ. We believe that peacemaking is central to our vocation in a troubled world where Christ is Lord."

[newyawker99]

17. Hi buckettgirl!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[knitter4democracy]

20. Wow!

That is awesome! I wonder if she would accept it, considering who wrote it, but on the other hand, it's hard to argue against. Thank you for that wonderful article. I'll send that with the correction I need to send.

[skygazer]

11. Very thoughtful and well written

You've made your point with a great deal of grace and thought. I wish more people would put so much soul searching into their religious belief - that is, after all, what it's supposed to be all about. As someone who is NOT a Christian, you've hit the nail on the head in regards to how much of this misplaced fervor resonates with those of us who do not share it.

I feel a fundamentalist society of ANY belief system is not a good idea because it necessarily marginalizes a portion of that society. When citizens are only worried about what is good for Christians (or Jews, or Muslims or Hindus, etc.), they stop thinking about what is good for ALL citizens.

I would send it. I think it is a respectful and thought provoking letter.

[IrateCitizen]

12. Minor correction -- the Pledge's author was not a communist.

Francis Bellamy was a Baptist Minister and a Christian Socialist. His original version of the pledge closed with the words "... with liberty, justice and equality for all," but he was convinced to remove the "equality" part because of racial issues during the late 19th century.

The correction regarding Jefferson's Bible was made above.

Overall, a well thought-out letter. However, if your friend is already drinking deep of the Kool Aid, don't expect it to have much effect -- other than perhaps her agreeing to remove you from her "Fwd" list.

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. *hugs* That must have been hard, but good for you for

standing up for your beliefs!

[American liberal]

14. thanks for sharing that, knitter

I got alot out of it. It's the first time I've heard that the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a Communist. Can you tell me your source for that information?

Although I'm very spiritual and have a deep faith in my higher power, I am not a Christian. I loved what you said about if an admin. gets caught up in what's best for Christians (or Jews or Muslims, etc.), that admin. loses sight in what's best for ALL citizens.

Our country was founded on the premise of freedom of religion. And this blessed society runs the gamut. Our diversity is one of the things I love most about this country. And that the framers of the Constitution had the foresight to separate the Church from the State speaks volumes about how we have evolved as a Republic. You obviously get it and I admire your willingness to share your knowledge--even at the risk of alienation.

Peace to you and yours,
AL

[GoblinToe]

15. Very well written!

Good job! Maybe now she'll realize there are other people on this planet than the people she goes to church with.

Very well written!

[newyawker99]

18. Hi GoblinToe!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[IrateCitizen]

16. A Short History of the Pledge of Allegiance

The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer
Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer

See also www.PledgeQandA.com


Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. ( * 'to' added in October, 1892. )

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

[knitter4democracy]

21. I'm going to forward this to her, if you don't mind

Thank you for finding this. DU is so awesome with so many people who know where to find things. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I had read somewhere that he did go Communist at one point, but that probably was by someone who didn't know the difference between Christian Socialists and Communists.

[Dora]

22. Way to go! Great letter.

I enjoyed reading this letter a lot. I think you did a great job of maintaining a respectful tone, and I learned things I hadn't known. (The rate of abortion has gone up??!!)

I hope your friend will give your letter the attention it deserves.

[knitter4democracy]

24. Yes, it has

I got this article in my e-mail list for the K'Zoo Dems:

WHY ARE ABORTION RATES ON THE RISE UNDER THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION?

Sojourners Magazine
Oct 13, 2004

During the 1990s, US abortion rates dropped 17.4%, an average drop of
1.7% per year. But abortion rates have risen during the Bush
administration, despite the administration's professed pro-life stance.
In this short article, pro-Life author Dr. Glen Harold Stassen examines
reasons for this surprising trend.

by Dr. Glen Harold Stassen

13 October 2004 | /Sojourners/

<http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display&issue=041013#5>

I would copy more, but I'm sure it's a copyright violation. Check out the site. The article is awesome.

[knitter4democracy]

23. I just want to thank everyone

I really appreciate everyone's posts, and I just wanted to tell everyone that. It's so hard when it's a friend, but I just can't take that crap anymore. I'm tired of my faith being denegrated to a "code word" soundbite just to get my vote. Frankly, Bush and all his people remind me just a bit too much of the people who went to my college who scared me. You know the kind of Christians I'm talking about: perfect hair, perfect clothes, wild glint in the eye, and a complete lack of understanding of pretty much anything complicated.

May the words of brian k. reese be ever immortal (which he yelled in a lit class in which student pressured the prof and administration to censor the material--which they did, and The New Yorker is still banned as pornography to this day): "I'm sick and tired of whiny Christians!"

[Lindsey]

25. Beautiful! Beautifully stated - you should be proud :-)

I also have a life long friend and I was in a similar situation with her. She kept sending me pro-Bush,pro-war, and pro-christian emails. I sent her an email that referenced a website Jesusisaliberal.com. I then told her that I was more into Buddhism myself (which is true)but felt that Jesus would not condone what was happening now in our world. I never got another email regarding politics or religion from her again and we've remained friends.

[crispini]

27. Yay! Very nice!

Good for you!

[Jack_Dawson]

28. Very appropriate and thoughtful

Nice work.

[TexasChick]

29. No...it is perfect!!! Too bad these RW still won't get it though...

it's their way or the highway. They don't ever think that they are wrong. :(



Jennifer