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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:03 AM
Original message
You won't get to CHOOSE whether to break-up America
Edited on Fri Oct-22-04 09:05 AM by Atlant
Recently in General Discussions, a poll asked whether or not you'd
like to see the breaking-up of America into (roughly) a Red Zone
and a Blue Zone.

I don't think you'll need to choose this; instead, unless America
radically changes course, I think it's almost a certainty that
America WILL fracture.

You see, the Red Zone People aren't going away. They've been around
for a long time, and in the last thirty years or so, they've seen
their power grow tremendously. They're now quite used to having the
Government, the Corporations, and the Media all pandering to them.
So even though it's quite likely that the Blue Zone People are about
to elect a Blue Zone President, there's not going to be that much of
a shift in the politics of this country and there's certainly not
going to be much of a shift in the outlook of the Corporations, the
Media, or the Red Zone People, and none of those factions are going
to be the slightest bit interested in giving up power.(1)

In fact, based on their own statements, it seems quite likely that
a number of Red Zone Factions will rapidly, happily resort to
violence rather than submit to the reassertion of control by the
Blue Zone. It may not happen all at once, and it may not be focused
enough to draw much attention, but you can almost certainly count
on increased attacks on, for example, women's health care facilities,
mosques, and other instrumentalities that are perceived of as either
"liberal" or "foreign".

And without a media that is on their side, the Blue Zone People
will have no way of carrying a non-violent rebuttal back to the
Red Zone People. Fox, (MS)NBC, ABC, and a de-fanged CBS, PBS, and
NPR will still be out there shilling primarily for the corporations
that own them/fund them.

At some point, it may become *VERY* attractive for, say, New England
and a few mid-Atlantic states to simply leave the USA in favor of
forming a new Northeast American country or to join the Canadian
confederation. It will be equally favorable for the Pacific Northwest
and Northern California to form Ecotopia or Cascadia or join Canada.
And the industrial northern Midwest will likely also see no cause to
remain allied with the Red Zone either.

Not only will the internal and external politics of an artificially-
amalgamated United States continue to appall folks in the Blue Zone,
but the economics will continue to stink as well. The Blue Zone
continually props up the Red Zone economically (as regards tax flows
in and out of each zone) and this will become increasingly difficult
as Red Zone-directed policies continue to devastate the domestic and
international economies of the United States.

But what of the Blue Zone People trapped in the Red Zone, and
vice-versa? The obvious answer is immigration/emigration, and a
vast sorting-out of who belongs where. This will produce discontin-
uities during the transitional years, but they will be more than
made-up for by the increased cohesiveness that results once we
finally no longer need to pander to the willfully ignorant,
isolationist Red Zone People(2).

I think the faster we accept the ultimate schism and get on with
doing what needs to be done, the happier and safer everyone
(everywhere in the world!) will be(3).

Atlant


1) I think we can take it as a given that the Democrats will *NOT*
be recapturing the House of Representatives. It's up in the air as
to whether or not they'll recapture the Senate, but they certainly
won't be capturing a fillibuster-proof Senate, and unlike the
Democrats, the Republicans know how to exercise raw political
power to keep their members in line. Similarly, the Democrats
can't immediately recapture the Supreme Court and, due to the
Senate, wouldn't be able to shift its composition much anyway.
The Media will remain firmly in the hands of a few big Corporations
and the various state governments will remain largely Republican.

2) I leave it to the reader to add another half-dozen or so
"isms/ists" to the list of adjectives describing the Red Zone;
I'd probably agree with most that you might choose.

3) Hidden in this argument is the possibility that the world may, at
some point, decide that America needs to be contained using a com-
bination of economic and military pressure. I know that I would just
as soon see this need for containment limited to the Red Zone rather
than the entirety of what is now the United States.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think #3 is inevitable under Bush.
If he wants to keep pre-emptively striking countries, I would not be the least bit surprised to see people standing up to us in a big way. I don't disagree with much of your entire argument. I don't see how much longer we can take being so bitterly divided, as these tensions haven't truly been assuaged since the Civil War.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. "'lit'l Bush' is just scrambled Bullshit"
Edited on Fri Oct-22-04 10:01 AM by TahitiNut
:evilgrin:
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Ehh??? (NT)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. a-n-a-g-r-a-m
(See the graphic in his sig.)
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Sorry -- I've got sigs turned off. I'll look when next logged-out. (NT)
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. Ahh -- I see. (NT)
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bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. This is what the repukes want
look at how they talk about california and new york like they are horrible pinko commie communities.. like they are practicly separate countries and not part of the REAL america. how can you demonize an entire STATE just because they lean one way politically?? what ever happened to the UNITED states of america??!

idiots.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. If you were addressing me...
Edited on Fri Oct-22-04 10:07 AM by Atlant
> how can you demonize an entire STATE just because they lean one way politically??

If you were addressing me, please note that I'm not particularly
demonizing any state; I simply don't want to be married to a whole
bunch of them any more. (To continue the analogy,) I believe that
the failure of the marriage is inevitable, but we do have a choice
of whether it ends by divorce or murder-suicide.


> what ever happened to the UNITED states of america??!

Good question! And I'm sure the answer is very, very long, but I
think a big part of it, crudely summarized, is:

  1. Un-expunged slavery/racism combined with the catalysing action
    of the 1964 Civil Rights Act

  2. The rise of fundamentalism combined with the willful ignorance
    of certain factions in this country

  3. The consolidation of the various media within a few mega-corporations

  4. The equating of corporations with "natural persons" and the
    concommitant rise of unchecked corporate power

  5. The recognition by the Republicans that they could exploit the
    anger of the Southern Religious White Male for Republican political
    gain (Nixon's "Southern Strategy")

Your list may vary from mine.

Atlant

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bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
39. I was not addressing you
sorry about that. :)
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. This topic crops up again & again (like an embarrassing skin condition)
Right now, we're being bombarded by more divisive, disruptive flamebait threads than normal. Some people are getting really nervous.

I usually start humming the tune of "This Land is Your Land".
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Tolerance and Diversity are concepts lost on these fuckers.
They've pretty much made me lose all tolerance for them. However, if their power were proportional to their numbers, I think we could all live in relative peace.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. I'm sorry that you feel this is flamebait.
Edited on Fri Oct-22-04 10:01 AM by Atlant
> ...disruptive flamebait...

I'm sorry that you feel this is flamebait; I don't and didn't start for
the purposes of attracting flames.

I started it so that we could talk-out what I feel is a *VERY, VERY
LIKELY* scenario for the nation in the (probable) event that Kerry wins.
You do understand that the Red Zone People are not going to go away or
even play dead, right? They're going to take this just as seriously as
everyone here seems to be taking it. And they are relentless and well-
armed (both in a literal way with guns and bombs and in a metaphorical
way with media, corporations, religions, and lots of political allies).

Atlant
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. Another possible outcome is emmigration
As the economy continues to falter, and the Republicans implement an increasingly more theocratic government, intelligent and educated people will find themselves in the same position as many in India.

Those with skills that are sellable in foreign countries will start emigrating to seek opportunity to live safer, freer lives, not surrounded by the religious ideologues and imbeciles that are increasingly in control of all aspects of public life in the US.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Yes, whether it's among the new countries or existing countries...
> Another possible outcome is emmigration

Yes, whether it's among the new countries (the Blue Zones) or existing
countries, there's no doubt that if sufficient pressure is applied,
people will emmigrate to where things are at least perceived to be
better.

After all, didn't a recent Zogby poll show that people with passports
are overwhelmingly Blue-leaning people?

Atlant
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flobee1kenobi Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. I can see that happening^^^^^
Jobs move overseas and people follow(its already begun)
Bush panders to the "south will rise again crowd" and they decide to speed up the process
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Yes, it's entirely possible that...
> Bush panders to the "south will rise again crowd" and they decide to speed up the process

Yes, it's entirely possible that the scenario will take place in the
reverse fashion from what I propose, and the Red Zone will walk away
from us. In the long run, this would probably be better as it's
less likely to get massively violent if they are the ones who decide
to go.

But I think the economics of the situation would probably prevent
this. After all, it's the Blue Zone that massively subsidizes the
Red Zone and not vice-versa. But if the mullahs, I mean religious
leaders in the Red Zone were to decide that, say, they simply couldn't
be a part of the homosexual-rights-giving Blue Zone, then I'm sure
economics wouldn't trump religion; after all, why would even Red Zone
People vote for Bush at all if they voted their rational economic
interests?

Atlant
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. Your point three
The things that the Neo-cons forget in their theory to hold power for years to come, is the other nation gang-up wild card.

I do not think that other nations of this planet will tolerate the coming years of Neo-con power consolidation if Monkey Boy gets in again, and it's subsequent violence forever and world bully to shape "their reality".

I think there will be financial pressure applied first, and this could go on for quite some time. After that route is taken though, and if it does not change the course, we would be looking at military options of others countries to stop the Neo-con fascists.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Economic pressure would likely do the job.
Edited on Fri Oct-22-04 09:45 AM by Atlant
> I think there will be financial pressure applied first, and this
> could go on for quite some time. After that route is taken though,
> and if it does not change the course, we would be looking at military
> options of others countries to stop the Neo-con fascists.

I think that economic pressure alone would likely do the job. Right now,
our economy is so far out of balance (both with its internal debt that
has to be financed by *SOMEONE*) and its foreign trade debt that, if
other countries wanted to, they could have us by the 'nads within a
very few clicks of their financial-trading computers.

But the military threat can't be dismissed either. In practice, I don't
think this will come from the established nation-states; they'll be
happy enough screwing us financially. Instead, the military threat
wil come from the mostly-stateless folks that we like to call "terror-
ists". We've been working pretty hard to assure that these folks are
pissed-off more than ever, and I'm sure a few nation-states (or
greedy corporations) wouldn't be above ensuring that the stateless
folks have the weapons they need to conduct effective military
operations inside our borders and against our world-wide military
and commercial assets.

Atlant
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
17. Here's a pointer to the poll post...
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
18. Agree Completely - Until Dems Treat Politics As A 24/7 Activity
Instead of an episodic undertaking, nothing will change.

Note that the Fundies and Repugs have treated politics as 24/7 endeavor for quite awhile now.

Buck up Dems or forever be roadkill on the corporate, Fundie, Repug superhighway.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. This is a point worth underlining!
Edited on Fri Oct-22-04 10:44 AM by Atlant
> Until Dems Treat Politics As A 24/7 Activity" instead
> of an episodic undertaking, nothing will change.

This is a point worth underlining! (So I did. :) )

Atlant
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
20. I am all for Maine joining Canada.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. The real question in New England...
The real question in New England is what to do with/about New
Hampshire. The rest of New England and the northern Mid-Atlantic
states would cohere pretty well, but New Hampshire belongs in the
Libertarian far west; it doesn't fit into the New England political
mold at all, and the influx of "Free Staters" isn't helping things.

Well, maybe Quebec and New Hampshire need to form their own
little island countries, ouis? ;)

Atlant
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Ouais! *g*
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Zing Zing Zingbah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. New Hampshire is far more like the rest of New England
than it is like the states in the South. The problem with New Hampshire is the media (it is way too conservative). I think New Hampshire would follow suit with the rest of New England, if such a thing were to happen.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. That's why I set New Hampshire with the Libertarian West
Edited on Fri Oct-22-04 12:23 PM by Atlant
> New Hampshire is far more like the rest of New England than it is
> like the states in the South.

I agree completely -- that's why I set New Hampshire with the
Libertarian West (Wyoming, Idaho, etc.) rather than with the South.

We're racially about as insular as you get ("white"), so overt racism
isn't much of a factor here. Neither is religious fundamentalism. But
we *STRONGLY* support all those famous Libertarian values like gun
rights, property rights, no taxation for nothin', etc. Generally, I think
we'd be philosophically right at home with some militia gang in Idaho.

Atlant

P.S.: It's for that reason that we're an *AWFUL* choice to hold such
a large roll in picking the Democratic presidential candidate every
four years!
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Zing Zing Zingbah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
22. This would make Bush the anti-Lincoln.
It's weird how republicans have become so different over the last 140 years.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I think you can trace much of it to....
> It's weird how republicans have become so different over the last 140 years.

I think you can trace much of it to the opportunity they perceived after
the Democrats forced through the 1964 Civil Rights Act. This saw the
birth of Nixon's extraordinarily cynical "Southern Strategy" and the
beginings of the rise of the NeoCons.

Atlant
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greekspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
26. Take this to the bank: THERE IS GOING TO BE MASS UNREST 11/3
It does not matter who wins. I know most of the people on here will be frothing if more Puke tricks screw up this election. And we know that there are threats of violence from the right if Kerry wins, no matter how he wins. Whether it involves a full scale civil war, a few weeks of fighting in the streets, large scale mostly peaceable demonstrations, or simply a more chaotic post-election cold war between right and left. But mark my words, it is going to get ugly. I do not see any way around it. Catch 22 situation.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Just a note...
> Take this to the bank: THERE IS GOING TO BE MASS UNREST 11/3

I don't necessarily disagree with you (about massive unrest on/near
11/3), but I want to note for the record that's not the main thrust
of my post. In my post, I'm looking a bit farther down the road,
although I'm probably not so bold as to put a timescale on my post.
Depending on how things break, it could be six months or it could
be sixty years.

But unless we massively change the way the Red Zone interacts with
the Blue Zone, we won't survive as the United States of America.

Atlant
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greekspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. I cannot put a time line on it either...although things are scary NOW
I think that there will be two Americas eventually. One is going to look a lot like the Netherlands. The other is going to be a sort of Christian version of Iran. The ideological divide right now is a gultch headed for canyon status quickly.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. My Dutch neighbor would probably like that!
> One is going to look a lot like the Netherlands. The other is
> going to be a sort of Christian version of Iran.

My Dutch neighbor would probably like that! :)

Although I can't agree with you that there will be only two zones, I
think you've chosen very apt descriptions for the Blue Zones and the
Red Zones; I'll try to remember them!

Atlant
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
27. the red zone will kill every seattleite & portlander
before they let cascadia secede. hell, the eastern washingtonians would help. they WANT to kill us.

we'd have to resort to nuclear blackmail like in ecotopia.

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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. It may come to that.
> we'd have to resort to nuclear blackmail like in ecotopia.

It may come to that. Do you suppose Ernst Callenbach will be surprised?

Atlant
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
31. To split, or, to be split? That is the question.
The world's "only superpower" has proven the axiom about power corrupting.

The rest of the world now either fears us, or wants to join the empire and share the loot (UK, Poland, Belarus, etc).

Iraq has shown (again) that we can be defeated.

We can (theoretically) resign our position of being Number One by joining the world community as a partner, possibly by splitting into smaller nations, or coming to our senses that we are all citizens of the world.

Or, we can vainly try to cling to our corporate empire, by expending still more lives and fortune, defending it.

Not a matter of if we fragment and crumble, but when.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
33. If this happens, I hope Pacifica (my name for the new...
...coastal country) will take my county. Part of Yosemite is in my county. They ought to insist.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
35. In the history of the world, how many problems have been solved....
by drawing yet another line on the map?

We need fewer borders, not more.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
36. I like the way you think, atlant, but
you know the flaw would be their perennial intent to wage war against us. :hi:

Someone probably already mentioned it.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. The "Ecotopian" solution was a nuke cleverly planted in Washington.
> you know the flaw would be their perennial intent to wage war against us.

Without a doubt! True believers can't stand the presence of infidels
anywhere, and especially not on their borders.

The Ecotopian(1) solution was a nuke cleverly planted in Washington
so that peace was maintained by the ever-popular strategy of MAD.
Given enough time to prepare, even a NEST team probably couldn't
find a carefully-concealed weapon or ten. It's sad but true MAD
may be the best way to assure peace with the Red Zone.(2) The
Blue Zones could also form mutual-defense treaties with the rest
of the sane world.

Atlant


1) Ecotopia and Ectopia Emerging are books by Ernst
Callenbach that hypothesize much of what I'm discussing here.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553348477/qid=1098467677/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-6429596-5997718

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0960432035/qid=1098467677/sr=2-2/ref=pd_ka_b_2_2/102-6429596-5997718


2) It is interesting to note that most of this country's military
might is concentrated in the Red Zone. There are probably two reasons
for this: The more-militaristic heritage of the Americans who first
settled the Red Zone and the somewhat-covert economic subsidies from
the Blue Zone to the Red Zone that military installations provide.
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
38. This is an excellent analysis.
Edited on Fri Oct-22-04 02:13 PM by hiphopnation23
I understand the problem that one poster aired regarding states as monoliths but I think that your post clearly deals with such a concern when you talk about the "blue-staters in Red States and vice versa."

I agree that it seems that we're reaching a boiling point in this country. But haven't we always been at a low simmer since the end of the civil war? One of the greatest things about Texas is its sense of liberty. They've been ready to secede for nigh on 200 years now. So while the state appears to be full of Bush supporters there's also a tremendous sense of democracy and progresive liberalism there. They just got duped by the Bush family, just like the entire country has.

There's also the issue of our population and our borders which are growing exponentionally.

How would you watch borders with an arrangement like this? Would it be similar to Canadian and Mexican borders? I guess so, but they don't seem to work all that well as it is. I guess the real logistcal problem with this would be if fighting really does break out then to impliment a plan like this you would almost certainly need some kind of physical barrier not unlike East and West Berlin or the one currently being constructed by Sharon.

I'm just going stream of conscious here but I really like a lot of your ideas, perspective and analysis. We have reached an interesting point in our political system. Two parties have highjacked the system and forced all other voices to the fringe. Thus those "fringe voices" become more bitter, vitriolic and completely intolerant of their political mirror image so as to insight violence and rage. All the while the middle begins to melt together and is virtually indistinguishable and the two major parites end up scrambling for fewer and fewer deciding votes.
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
41. The red-blue map is deceptive
The red-blue division looks distinctive, but many of these states on both sides are close to a 51-49 situation.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
42. I don't see it as Red Zone/ Blue Zone really
I see it as an owning class vs. non-owning class thing, since the people in the Government all sit on the boards of Corps and the Media.

If we are to get anywhere, the revolving door between government and private power will have to be shut and locked. Or a few of us non-owners will have to occupy some seats in goverment. The owning class will never act in the non-owning class' interest. We'll just keep fighting about wedge issues in the social sphere. The economic sphere won't change unless we demand that it changes.
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