Krugman on what to expect if Kerry wins.....interview in TX Observer.

[madfloridian]

http://www.mollyivins.com/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=1777

TO: The day after the election, what’s the column if Kerry wins?

PK: Do not be magnanimous in victory. I hope the people around him understand that this is not politics as we know it. It’s not, “OK, well, we won an election. After the election we’ll get together and work in a bipartisan way to help the country.” They didn’t work in a bipartisan way when the United States was attacked. They immediately saw it as a way to achieve political dominance. Kerry has got to understand that he has a window of opportunity to expose what’s going on and to rock these people back to the point where we can try to reclaim the normal workings of democracy. Unless there’s a true miracle and the Democrats take the House—which is extremely unlikely—it’s going to be very bitter political civil war from Day One. The House leadership will try to undermine Kerry. I’m sure they’ll try to impeach him almost immediately. On anything.

We can go on and on about Tom DeLay, but the point is Tom DeLay is not an aberrant thing. He’s not an accident. The whole thrust of where we’ve been going for a couple of decades in this country has been towards putting someone like Tom DeLay in a position of great power. So, my column to Kerry, my open letter to him if he wins, will be: Do not be magnanimous. You need to expose and dismantle this machine...."

And of course, I appreciate his comment about Howard Dean's contribution to the party's standing up:

SNIP..."What happened here after 9/11 was this adulation for the leadership that completely swamped any rational perception of who these guys were and what they were like. debate had an effect partly because it was as if for the first time in three-plus years, people were able to see without the shroud of glory.

TO: But does the Democratic Party finally get it?

PK: Howard Dean gets it, and it’s been interesting to watch him. Having lost the nomination he’s been transformed bit by bit from an iconoclast that the party wants to distance itself from, to an effective spokesman for the Kerry campaign. But I still think there are a lot of people who don’t want to face up to it.END SNIP

I still remember Capn Sunshine's comments on a meeting he had with Dean in LA....Dean said we were in a civil war here and could not afford to be nice. I agree.

[amber dog democrat]

1. I agree. Need to be vigillant and non compromising on standards.

These people don't play nice. They are even more dangerous out of power.
AFter the chimp loses, we need to go after as much of his machine as we can.

[DeepModem Mom]

2. Krugman is exactly right -- these people are bent on the destruction...

of our system as we've known it, and as the Founders intended. Dean gets it; Wes Clark gets it -- I hope Kerry gets it. "Take back America" is not a cliche, but what must be done.

[madfloridian]

3. "Do not be magnanimous. You need to expose and dismantle this machine...."

A powerful but true statement. They are not going to give up power easily.

[Nite Owl]

4. He is so right.

One of the big mistakes was Ford's pardon of Nixon. These guys got see that they can't just lose an election and keep up what they are doing. A Kerry win can't be just a pause in power for them to raise more money. People in this administration must be help accountable and convicted.

[madfloridian]

5. Right, they are not just going to walk away and give it up.

Your phrase "a pause for power" is so true.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. I love Krugman!

He'as DAMN right. If you want to bring integrity back to government, you're going to have to expose the malevolent business forces which have taken over our country.

[madfloridian]

7. His comments on the voting problems:

SNIP..."TO: Jimmy Carter has already written an op-ed in The Washington Post saying that the basic international conditions for a fair election are not there in Florida.

PK: We’re within inches of having most of the world, actually all of the world, and quite a few Americans, believing that we’re no longer a functioning democracy. That could happen a month from now. Moderates and liberals made a terrible mistake in 2000. Their attitude was well, this was very bad, but the right thing to do was to basically gloss over it and pretend it’s okay. That just encouraged these guys...."

[robbedvoter]

8. Holbrock today on Randi was blathering the very bipartisanship BS

Krugman warns about. I had a chill - and now Krugman gave me the words for it.
The entire interview is just fantastic! Questions included!

[The Minus World]

9. Kerry has shown signs

that his is aware of this. Although I was skeptical in supporting him at first, (I was an anybody-but-Bush-er) I've come to the realization that Kerry understands how he needs to behave during an election year to endear himself to "persuadables."

He needs to play the game by their rules at first; then he can overcome them, and set a new standard.

[never cry wolf]

11. Oh, he knows

He was the lead in the BCCI investigation which led seamlessly into Iran-Contra. Same gang of thugs here, I'll warrant Kerry kows a hell of alot more about the inner workings of the BFEE and friends than anyone here on DU. Being able to do a whole lot about it openly may be another matter entirely, however.

on edit: spelin

[The Minus World]

14. That is true

The GOP is well aware that, if Kerry is elected, the paint on their grand facade will be chipped away.

It's possible that it'll happen anyway, though - a former official under Reagan said that there would be a "civil war within the Republican party, starting November 3rd" if Bush got re-elec... er... chosen by the Supreme Court again. I forget his name, though.

[never cry wolf]

19. I believe you are spot-on

dimson is a walking constitutional crisis. I just replied to a well reasoned post of yours in a Schwartz thread and you have been a member for a while with few posts. Please post more often, IMHO you "get it." Your contributions have been very insightful.

[The Minus World]

25. Thanks!

Your feedback is appreciated! I try to add what I can, when I can.

[Eloriel]

10. Thanks very much for posting this

Extremely powerful, from one of the sanest and most sagacious people I know if, and extremely accurate:

So, my column to Kerry, my open letter to him if he wins, will be: Do not be magnanimous. You need to expose and dismantle this machine...."

The Bushies -- and all their ugly friends -- have to be so completely discredited and politically ruined that their names will replace and esceed Benedict Arnold's in infamy.

[Eloriel]

15. Here's something else I've been saying for a long time

(tho of course he says it better):

Moderates and liberals made a terrible mistake in 2000. Their attitude was well, this was very bad, but the right thing to do was to basically gloss over it and pretend it’s okay. That just encouraged these guys. It should have been a mobilizing point.

I've said that regarding the Senate not standing with the CBC. It doesn't matter if they wouldn't have won anyway -- what would have made a difference (but only if they were willing to carry through) was standing up to the fraud, to the abuse, to the powergrab, and putting Bush&Co. on notice that they KNEW and weren't going to let him off the hook easily or at all.

[madfloridian]

21. That is why I reacted so badly to the opening scenes of F9/11.

It just brought it all back again. I was not even sure who to be mad at anymore.

[Book Lover]

12. Didn't someone in GD post something along these lines

A little while ago?... About what Kerry should do post-election to clean house.. Gonna go search.

on edit: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2500873

[madfloridian]

41. Thanks, I missed that post.

Excellent ideas.

[The Magistrate]

13. Hear Hear, Ma'am!

Once President Kerry is elected, this is the direction all radical fire ought to turn, and the aim it must maintain.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[NYCGirl]

16. Amazing interview! And this part I found especially chlling:

This is really "Triumph of the Will"-like:

TO: In writing about the cult of personality surrounding the president, you mention the 27 photographs of him that appear in the 2005 Budget.

PK: I actually went to check and looked at a budget from the Clinton years. It’s a rather dry-looking thing with charts and tables. The Bush budget is very much short on charts and tables–it’s better not to think about what would be in them. But it has these themes, uplifting themes of various kinds and each of them is illustrated with multiple glossy color photos of Bush doing presidential-type things. Obviously you see him standing in front of a giant American flag talking about homeland security, but you also see him hiking along a mountain trail, comforting the elderly, helping children learn how to read. It really does look like something from a Communist country. You know, I joked when I wrote about it that they forgot the photo of him swimming the Yangtze River. It’s very un-American, but it fits in with Operation Flight Suit—that kind of stagecraft, that glorification of the individual leader. What I wrote at the time of the carrier landing is that in the American tradition, the president is a civilian—even if he’s a former general. The president does not appear in uniform; he’s not a generalísimo; he’s not a hero. That’s why the Constitution says the president is the commander-in-chief: to make it very clear that civilian authority, not military, runs the country. And then here we are doing these things that are really something that you would expect to see in a banana republic.

[madfloridian]

42. That reminds me of the "easier to be a dictator" train of thought.

Krugman put it well in the paragraph you quoted:
"Operation Flight Suit—that kind of stagecraft, that glorification of the individual leader."

[milkyway]

17. Thanks for this! I saw Krugman speak not long ago and he mentioned

his next book will be on the rise of the conservative movement that began with Goldwater. Deep down, Krugman is scared to death of the bush cabal and what they are doing to this country. I don't think he's used the word fascism yet, but that's where he thinks we could be heading. I love the "don't be magnanimous" and "window of opportunity" quotes. Krugman knows we need Kerry the Prosecutor to go after these guys while we have some power. If Kerry gives the BFEE a pass for everything they have done, the window will close and these guys will come back even stronger.

[madfloridian]

22. Krugman often does sound afraid of what is happening.

He is much afraid also of the financial problems in our nation right now. I mean afraid.

[Q]

18. Excerpt: ..."the 27 photographs of him that appear in the 2005 budget.."

TO: In writing about the cult of personality surrounding the president, you mention the 27 photographs of him that appear in the 2005 Budget.

PK: I actually went to check and looked at a budget from the Clinton years. It’s a rather dry-looking thing with charts and tables. The Bush budget is very much short on charts and tables–it’s better not to think about what would be in them. But it has these themes, uplifting themes of various kinds and each of them is illustrated with multiple glossy color photos of Bush doing presidential-type things. Obviously you see him standing in front of a giant American flag talking about homeland security, but you also see him hiking along a mountain trail, comforting the elderly, helping children learn how to read. It really does look like something from a Communist country. You know, I joked when I wrote about it that they forgot the photo of him swimming the Yangtze River. It’s very un-American, but it fits in with Operation Flight Suit—that kind of stagecraft, that glorification of the individual leader. What I wrote at the time of the carrier landing is that in the American tradition, the president is a civilian—even if he’s a former general. The president does not appear in uniform; he’s not a generalísimo; he’s not a hero. That’s why the Constitution says the president is the commander-in-chief: to make it very clear that civilian authority, not military, runs the country. And then here we are doing these things that are really something that you would expect to see in a banana republic.

[welshTerrier2]

20. "You need to expose and dismantle this machine...."

kudos to Krugman ... he's dead on the money once again ...

it's important that we pay special attention to the phrase: "this machine" ... too many think if we get rid of bush and cheney, we've won ... some think we need to stop right-wing Christians ... some think it's hawkish PNAC ideologues ...

but none of those named above would be able to accomplish anything without the real power standing behind them, funding them and pushing them ... those named above are only the soldiers, not the generals ... and without a government up for sale to the super-wealthy, the generals themselves would be powerless to act ...

we have ceded American power from its citizenry to those who control the multi-national corporations ... they buy votes in Congress, they direct government policy to serve their own needs rather than the needs of the American people and they are driven by selfishness and greed ... they use pretty words of freedom to sell their corruption of our democracy: "free trade", "free" markets and "free" enterprise ... what they really mean is that they are "free" from governmental oversight; oversight designed to protect American citizens ...

"dismantling the machine" does not end with the defeat of bush ... it does not end with a somewhat "liberal" Kerry administration ... this is a life and death marathon, not a sprint ... what is needed is a "movement", not a campaign ... sadly, i expect we will lose many DU'ers after the election (assuming, of course, a Kerry victory) ... and that's too bad ... it is short-sighted and will only return the pendulum again and again to where we are today ... the darkness will not end with bush's defeat ... not in the long-run ...

it's well past the time for DU to start focussing more on developing a platform ... we need to clearly define some guidelines for how to deal with massive corporate power ... we talk about "taking back our country" ... what does this mean to our DU membership? if all it means is kicking out bush, we're squandering a real opportunity here ... it's fine to "dismantle the machine", but we'll never succeed in the long run without a clearly defined machine to put in its place ...

[necso]

23. Best single piece of Krugman,

I have ever seen.

Read it, save it to disk -- and read it again.

"Right on the Edge"... of losing Democracy.

[madfloridian]

26. It is vintage Krugman. He is a powerful voice.

:hi:

[ldf]

24. you DON'T play nice

with a cancer.

you do everything possible to COMPLETELY eliminate it.

:grr:

[DeepModem Mom]

27. Kick!

[robbedvoter]

28. Kick!

[Q]

29. The Dem party should have learned in 2000 and 2002...

...that bipartisanship is an unworkable concept as long as Bush* Machine holds power in congress, senate and the courts.

- Before that...we saw that even when a Democrat wins the WH in a fair election...the RWing-controlled aparatus in DC prevented him from governing.

- It's time to put an end to this. Kerry simply can't afford to compromise like Clinton.

[ulysses]

30. agreed.

Bipartisanship is a luxury we can't afford at this juncture.

[madfloridian]

37. We compromised in 2000 and 2002....it is now worse.

We don't learn quickly, I fear. It is beyond compromise now.

[coreystone]

31. Mr. Krugman certainly does have a way of .....

"cutting to the chase". On the positive assumption that Kerry will succeed "President Elect Gore", come November 2, 2004, he will confront a political machine that controls the mainstream media, a completely polarized electorate, and controls all branches of the Federal Government except the executive.

While I fully understand the need for Kerry to "play the game" to get elected, it will be imperative for him to fully recognize that, once elected, he must expose to the American people that the lies and deceit which has been accumulating for decades needs a second "look see"!

In some ways it is a quandary of which came first - "the chicken or the egg". I strongly believe that much of the attitude which has turned good Americans into the victims of the "thought police" have been garnered since WWII; though, I am sure that the seeds have always been available before then.

I still think that there are many historical remnants of the "Pearl Harbor" attack on December 7, 1941. We were attacked. We had our pants down, and, some have taken measures to insure that that will never happen again. But, it did. Why it did on September 11, 2001 deserves a multitude of investigation; though, I doubt very much whether much truth will be revealed.

I do believe that there is a great desire for some elements of the powers in our country to so control and dominate the world's political environment and the natural resources in order to feed our gluttonous cravings, that the "the chicken or the egg" quandary has been reduced to practical irrelevance. But, then I say no! The American people have always felt the United States has stood for being the "good guys with the white hats, where evil never wins". This, of course, is an aberrant perspective in the review of our nation's history, but, it is the mind set of the currently accepted political culture.

So, let us reexamine the "chicken/egg" paradigm. After WWII the McCarthy hearings during the early 50's began. These were very much based upon paranoiac fear tactics in conjunction with the "cold war", the nuclear threats of the USSR, the symbolic attachments that communism, and the perceived threat of a country which was philosophically dominated by Karl Marx, Lenin, as being the basic foundations of the Soviet doctrine, led many Americans to support the "pairing" of "fear" and "communism". This is quite easily explained by the classical conditioning of Pavlov and of behavioral psychology.

Bypassing the "Cuban Missile Crisis" of the fall of 1962, let us jump into Vietnam and the "Domino Theory". Bingo, once again we have "paired" the civil war in Vietnam to the "fear factor" and further linking that to "patriotism" to defend our country against "communism". If the commies take South Vietnam, surely they will advance to the next domino, and so forth. One of the strange elements of that conflict was that Ho Chi Minh had asked the United States for economic assistance shortly after the end of WWII. We denied his request, the Brits went in, the French went in, and so forth.

Then let us advance to the control of the "mainstream" media that has been bought by some of those people who have extremely self absorbing purposes for controlling the news. We all know about this. This eccentricity of reporting news to the American people has truly become a bastardization of objective journalism. We all know this. The problem is that many of the American people do not! Just a week ago, I visited the local Democratic HQ; I had a very nice conversation with two staffers who were extremely surprised of some the revelations that I would share with them concerning the objective reporting of the mainstream media. They were very pleased that I had provided some alternate sources for accessing news events.

NOW! When Kerry walks into to Oval Office on January 20, 2004, he will still have the active conclusions of the “chicken/egg” model. He will still have a press that is owned by self interest groups. More than likely, he will be confronted by a Senate and House comprised of members having been elected by many “good” Americans who listened to the “mainstream media”, in addition to the Supreme Court. So, was the chicken artificially genetically encoded by the media, or was the egg a fertile vessel of the American mind implanted with the goo? Inquiring minds want to know. Just ask Rupert M., he knows all the chords. Tabloid news yields a tabloid electorate.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

32. EXACTLY beat them back down and bring America BACK INTO the 21st century

[mike_c]

33. beating them down starts with vigorous prosecution of shrubya...

...and his minions. Endorse the ICC so that any pardons Bush issues during his last days in office can be circumvented-- deliver hs ass to The Hague. That's the ICC's charge, to prosecute cases that the nation with primary jurisdiction fails to address. Putting an ex-president and several of his adiminstation behind bars will send a powerful message to the neo-con pigs: this is still America.

[coreystone]

34. International Criminal Court...

Historical introduction

The International Criminal Court (ICC) was established by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court on 17 July 1998, when 120 States participating in the "United Nations Diplomatic Conference of Plenipotentiaries on the Establishment of an International Criminal Court" adopted the Statute. This is the first ever permanent, treaty based, international criminal court established to promote the rule of law and ensure that the gravest international crimes do not go unpunished.

The Statute sets out the Court's jurisdiction, structure and functions and it provides for its entry into force 60 days after 60 States have ratified or acceded to it. The 60th instrument of ratification was deposited with the Secretary General on 11 April 2002, when 10 countries simultaneously deposited their instruments of ratification. Accordingly, the Statute entered into force on 1 July 2002. Anyone who commits any of the crimes under the Statute after this date will be liable for prosecution by the Court.

Link: For the “International Criminal Court”

http://www.icc-cpi.int/ataglance/whatistheicc/history.html

[mike_c]

35. the July 1 2002 initiation date would put the illegal...

...invasion of Iraq and crimes committed subsquently in Iraq within the ICC's jurisdiction. I presume that evidence from earlier dates could be presented in support of those charges, but perhaps any earlier crimes, e.g. conspiracy, might not be prosecuted. What a test case that would be! A modern Numemberg.

[coreystone]

36. There are so many strategic variables to consider...

in this world wide "crazyness". I just hope for now that Kerry gets the "Presidential Elect" notice next to his name!

:kick:

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. He's exactly right!

They must pay for what they've done. He needs to clean out the repub party and clean it out in COURT! They MUST pay or it will never stop.

[high density]

39. Nice interview

:kick:

[d_b]

40. I agree.

Kerry needs to expose and dismantle that machine.