When Kerry Wins what will become of the impressive groundswell?

[hiphopnation]

I know the question has been asked here in various incarnations before, but how will the left in this country cultivate or channel the tremendous energy and forward motion we've seen as a result this near fascist dictator being selected for office?

What I see here is a meeting of several topics from several different discussion threads on this board over the past several months. Some of them are:

breaking up of the "united states"
confronting the DLC (i.e. voting against bush and not FOR kerry)
third-party options
lack of cohesion/unified plan on the left

That's just a few. Here's how I see them meeting: The current political climate being what it is we've got ideologues on the left and the right in this country who cannot see clear to compromise on anything because both are so vehemently opposed to one another that the possibility of seeing eye to eye is becoming more of a rarity. After what the media and the DLC did to the candidates whom many thought were the clear choice because of their courage and outspoken opposition to fascism it seems that the DLC has no real interest in promoting a liberal progressive platform and is more inclined to maintain the status quo. Even more shortsighted a goal, noble as it is, is that they seemed solely focused on ousting bush.

There was an interesting piece in my local weekly rag the other day about how creative art (music in this case) tends to burgeon during times of political or economic crisis or unrest and that it tends to stagnate in times of relative peace and prosperity. The author was by no means lauding the current administration merely making an observation about the conditions under which creative, challenging art tend to thrive. This got me to thinking about the left as most artists and musicians that I know tend to lean left.

I've heard it often said that bush has indeed made good on his promise to be a "uniter not a divider"; he's united the whole world against him." But the opposition to this administration from the left in this country has been something truly magnificent to experience. I'm a relative youngin' on this board. I first became politically active and aware during the 90's when things were, relatively, peachy keen. Interestingly enough, the music and art of the decade was, for the most part, atrocious. But it begs consideration; when Kerry wins this election what will become of the impressive groundswell that bush has culled in the last four years? How will it confront it's discontent with the leadership of "the party"? Will the unity we enjoy amongst the middle-left, the left, the left left, and the way left, under the common goal of defeating bush, be maintained? How do we reconcile the need to afford, or not, for third (and fourth and fifth) party voices a space at the bargaining table?

Regarding the "break up of the republic" threads that have been going around: is this a real option/concern? Are the percentage of Americans that supposedly still support * brainwashed (I still don't believe a lot of the polls), dumb, frightened, not paying attention, or a fine mixture of all these things? Perhaps more importantly, are they reachable? And if they're not how to remove them from the fabric of an America that most sound-thinking Americans see as our place in the ever shrinking world: a country of liberal domestic policies that looks to support the free flow of information, the genearl health and welfare of all its citizens, the validation of all types of loving relationships, an equitable and fair justice system, environmental policy that listens to and supports scientific research and looks to maintain a real and sustainable equilibrium with the natural world, a sound, sustainable economic system that keeps Americans working while recognizing it's place in the global market.

I'm just rattling stuff off cuz I'm bored on this Friday afternoon. Sorry for the lack of cohesion here. Just trying to get some honest thoughts and critique. Let 'er rip.

[crispini]

1. Thoughts...

When Kerry wins, the Grand Coalition of the Reality-Based Thinkers will lose some steam. There are still a fair amount of people on the faaaaaaaaaar left who are voting ABB and who will be interested in holding K's feet to the fire on their pet issues.

However, I have a lot of faith in the work of George Lakoff, who points out that we need to recognize our shared values, and that we need to learn to hang together and unite under the banner of liberalism, rather than tearing each other apart because our priorities are different.

Getting Lakoff's work dissiminated in my immediate community is going to be a huge priority for me. I also would like to do some grassroots work here in my home town. I am interested in systemic type reforming which I could do at a local level, i.e. election reform (this could be done at a local or state level a la Arizona clean Election). I am very interested in trying to get inititive and referendum for my state as well.

I have also seen a LOT of interest in Media Reform on this board, and I would be interested to be a part of pushing for this. I think that's a systemic type reform that needs to be pushed.

I seriously doubt the breakup of the republic's going to happen. Both DU and Freeperville are probably more off on the far end of their respective spectrums than people out in the real world. And anyway when you look at the electoral map county-by-county instead of state by state, the breakup IS rural vs. urban, NOT red state vs. blue state. If you color the nation by county, it's PURPLE. The EC creates an illusion of state homogenieity (sp?) that's not there.

Anyway, interesting conversation! More later, maybe! :)

[hiphopnation]

2. Now I'm definitely going to have to check out

Lakoff. I'm ashamed to admit that this is the first I've heard of him.

You make some very interesting points especially about the EC. Very poignent and appreciated.

[crispini]

10. Yes, read Lakoff

Nice big downloadable chunk of his most recent book, "Don't think of an Elephant" here:

http://www.chelseagreen.com/2004/items/elephant

[welshTerrier2]

3. are we a campaign or a movement ??

i'm reposting this from another thread discussing Krugman's recent interview where he talked about the need to "dismantle the machine" ... this is a critical topic ...

i'm afraid that the "anti-bush" has generated far more heat than the hum-drum creation of a viable plan for the future ... when Kerry wins, those who remain on DU will need to help build a "master vision" and a strategy to achieve it ...

here was my previous post:

kudos to Krugman ... he's dead on the money once again ...

it's important that we pay special attention to the phrase: "we need to dismantle this machine" ... too many think if we get rid of bush and cheney, we've won ... some think we need to stop right-wing Christians ... some think it's hawkish PNAC ideologues ...

but none of those named above would be able to accomplish anything without the real power standing behind them, funding them and pushing them ... those named above are only the soldiers, not the generals ... and without a government up for sale to the super-wealthy, the generals themselves would be powerless to act ...

we have ceded American power from its citizenry to those who control the multi-national corporations ... they buy votes in Congress, they direct government policy to serve their own needs rather than the needs of the American people and they are driven by selfishness and greed ... they use pretty words of freedom to sell their corruption of our democracy: "free trade", "free" markets and "free" enterprise ... what they really mean is that they are "free" from governmental oversight; oversight designed to protect American citizens ...

"dismantling the machine" does not end with the defeat of bush ... it does not end with a somewhat "liberal" Kerry administration ... this is a life and death marathon, not a sprint ... what is needed is a "movement", not a campaign ... sadly, i expect we will lose many DU'ers after the election (assuming, of course, a Kerry victory) ... and that's too bad ... it is short-sighted and will only return the pendulum again and again to where we are today ... the darkness will not end with bush's defeat ... not in the long-run ...

it's well past the time for DU to start focussing more on developing a platform ... we need to clearly define some guidelines for how to deal with massive corporate power ... we talk about "taking back our country" ... what does this mean to our DU membership? if all it means is kicking out bush, we're squandering a real opportunity here ... it's fine to "dismantle the machine", but we'll never succeed in the long run without a clearly defined machine to put in its place ...

[hiphopnation]

4. An excellent post

and exactly the sentiment I am attempting to sum up. Thanks for the input.

DU is an excellent place to start. The revolution will indeed begin online. :thumbsup:

On edit: your post, I believe, begins to touch on the need for more parties to be heard at the table. It is telling here at DU the vitriol and knee-jerk reaction upon the very mention of a third party. For many it equals "Ralph Nader" and that starts a whirlwind. Not that the vitriol towards him is not unfounded but I see the need for third party candidates to be heard now perhaps more than ever in our nations history.

[welshTerrier2]

6. third parties, motors and steering wheels ...

i have been strongly opposed to both of Nader's candidacies ... for those who criticize him for that very specific misguided act, i say count me in ...

but there are way too many here on DU who fail to understand that we need to build a coalition of the left ... we may be able to win this election without the Greens, the Naderites, the Social Democrats many others, but this is short-term thinking ... if some DU'ers are worried about those who have left the Democratic Party and those who vote to its left, I can understand their concerns about the risks they run in helping bush get re-elected ...

but those to the left of the Democratic Party are the parties "natural allies" ... we need to seek unity with all who are willing to fight against corporate tyranny and the grip it holds on our democracy ... merely because we disagree over strategy, even candidates and even our ultimate vision does not preclude our coming together to fight a common enemy ...

we need to start building a movement ... we need to start building stronger alliances and we need to act quickly while so many have been at least briefly awakened ... i'm sad to say i'm not optimistic ... even here on DU, the "hot headlines" are far more popular than lengthy discussions of policy ... but, as i said earlier, without at least some commonality of vision, without a general understanding of just who the real enemy is and what policies they seek to impose, we are at best a big motor with no steering wheel attached ...

[hiphopnation]

7. some very interesting and profound thoughts WT

I appreciate it. I'm the first to admit that I probably haven't been as active as I should be thought I've done just about everything within my financial and physical capacity. I often come down on myself for not doing enough. It will be quite interesting to see what becomes of DU after the election especially if JK wins it. Perhaps the numbers will plummet and many will go back to their quite way of life giving no real thought to what the left in America can and should do to implement substantive changes here. I am also not optimistic. So much of what we need to learn seems like it will not, cannot, come without some major crisis as we have become so used to a very cooshy and easy lifestyle. It's understandable that we are reluctant to let that go but there is no way to sustain that style of life given our place in the global economy and the sooner we come to grips with that the better our chances of making a smooth transition to a less consumer based "grow grow grow" economy. It's simply not viable or sustainable. This will have to start at a real grassroots level. Thanks again.

[welshTerrier2]

8. "there is no way to sustain that style of life"

thanks for your kind words, my friend ...

here is a thread i started about a week ago ... for me, it was a kind of "primal scream" ... it's kind of long but it sounds like what I wrote is very much how you see things ... especially your focus on the implications of a global economy on our standard of living ...

and if you really want to get totally depressed, check out the link below ... i found this site recently and was totally blown away ... i've been writing almost identical stuff on DU for almost 2 years now ... who knew I could have just copied something someone had already written ... here's the link: www.dsausa.org/about/where.html

[hiphopnation]

9. Oh my I'm definitely going to tear into that when I get home

And the thread you posted before I also read and followed with great voracity. The "signal to noise" ratio here at DU is pretty low but, as is evidenced in that thread, there are still some profoundly intelligent and thoughtful folks lurking around here who have much to say and plenty of energy to make some impressive grassroots action.

So much more to say! But the one part of that thread that I've started to question more and more is the issue of peak oil. Don't have time to get too in depth right now (getting ready to go catch a movie) but the more I've read the less I'm convinced that a real oil crisis is just around the corner, meaning a few years away. Now fifty or a hundred years, that's more plausible. That's not much time but it's still time to start figuring out ways of cultivating renewable energy sources.

[KlatooBNikto]

16. HHN23 and WT2, I have read your excellent posts here with interest.

It is my belief that until we as citizens learn to look at the pronouncements of our public officials skeptically nothing will come of any initiatives of any kind.Our educational system, based as it is on mindless self congratulatory poses of our history, makes it inevitable that our citizenry will learn to avoid asking the hard questions of our rulers.The propaganda machine that was cranked up to its virulent levels at such short notice in support of Bush is not going to fade away soon.The presence of fine individuals like you two at blogs like DU has been a deterrent of sorts to the vapid posturings of the well paid pundits of our mainstream media and that is precisely what we need more of.In the end the power of big business, their lobbyists and the big media can be defeated if more and more people participate in independent forums like DU and exchange views routinely.The decentralized nature of these blogs and their multiplicity is what we need to preserve at all costs.

I believe that the no holds barred quality of the discussions on this blog are far superior to anything I read on the NYT and WaPo.My only regret is that we do not get to hear from truly admirable thinkers like Noam Chomsky or Chalmers Johnson or Kevin Phillips more.

[hiphopnation]

19. and yet

even here on DU the signal to noise ratio is very low. As both myself and WT expressed, we're not optimistic, especially if DU is any indication because of the relatively low content of posts and thread with real substance versus the threads that make attempts at real truth and solution.

Your assessment of the education system is spot on. Like I said with nearly half of the nation in complete bizarro land, drugged, fat, ignorant, lazy, narcissistic, greedy; As you and I were discussing in another thread, I'm not fully convinced of the pure and unfettered genius of the principals of individual liberty that the country was founded on; or rather how corporatist have come to interpret those principals which is basically "consume, consume consume, take take take, don't worry about education yourself or trying to conserve anything...we can maintain this way of life for sure...don't you worry." That's how most Americans think!! So while I understand that it's the corporatist interpretation of the principals of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" it's gone horribly horribly awry and is in no way sustainable and half of the country either doesn't know or they know and they just don't give a fuck cuz they're really enjoying themselves! How are we party to that mentality?

Again, I'm not optimistic. If (when) Kerry wins it will quite interesting to see what happens here at DU in terms of it's activity and registered participants.

[CAcyclist]

28. Once people are activated

its addictive - many may take a break but I can't see this groundswell stopping until we've really taken our country back. So many things need to be done - electing one president isn't going to fix everything.

The priorities I see are:

Real campaign finance reform and hopefully public funding of elections

Antitrust laws used to bust these new trusts - media, medical, financial, etc.

Depersoning corporations

Reinstate the Glass-Steigel law (did I misspell that?)

A new New Deal:public funding to get the mills working again. We can bring back manufacturing jobs. Funding research and development for solar, wind technology

Nationalized Health Care

A true progressive income tax with a return to a 90% tax bracket for the billionares

Free 4 years of college for every high school graduate. Lots more money for our public school system.

True protection of our remaining forests with recreational opportunities for low-impact activities but strict controls on extraction industries

A different focus on transportation funding to emphasize buses, trains, bike and ped facilities and discourage excessive car dependency. Pay me to ride my bicycle to work!

Training in grade school to understand advertising aims and techniques and propanganda, so our children will be better prepared

[hiphopnation]

5. ...

it's fine to "dismantle the machine", but we'll never succeed in the long run without a clearly defined machine to put in its place ... <----- Nature abhors a vacuum, after all.

[madfloridian]

11. The DFA groundswell is still growing.

My husband and I and our local DFA group here will continue as we did before, just setting different goals.

Contributions are growing, and more candidates are benefitting.

That ground swell will continue for sure.

www.democracyforamerica.com
www.blogforamerica.com

[hiphopnation]

13. THanks for the links.

The Dean "groudswell" is exactly what I'm referring to in this post. Most imporessive, it was.

[NEDem]

12. self delete, sorry

[ulysses]

14. great thread

Just nominated it for the homepage. The discussion you and welshterrier started is desperately needed, and desperately needs to continue. We need to organize.

More later. Let's keep this kicked.

[ulysses]

15. kick

:kick:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. A third party will emerge.

Kerry will disappoint the left - if he is elected, which is very far from assured.

One of the good things to come out of the last 4 years has been the emergence of a new left. But, I see it in it's infancy. A loose (very loose) coalition mostly opposed to the war in Iraq. Much like the early days of the civil rights and anti-war movements. And, much like an infant, it is testing it's muscles, finding it can do things, exploring the world.

After the election, that force will not be spent, or satisfied with a return to the status quo. If Bush is reelected it will be angry, but it will probably dissipate in the face of failure. If Kerry is elected, it will feel its strength and push for more radical change. Kerry, because of the nature of politics in this country, will not be able to fulfill it's demands and will become the symbol of the ancien regime. The Democratic Party will attempt to cling to power and will fragment much as it did between '68 and '72.

The question of who will lead the party in 2008. The standard bearer of the "moderates" or someone to represent the Left. The moderates, being in power with Kerry, will be able to fend off the left as "extremists" and renominate Kerry leaving the left nowhere to go.

Unlike '72 when the left won with McGovern, there will be no reason to stay with the Democrats.

Finally, a viable 3rd party of the left will emerge. 2008 will be lost to the Republicans. After that, the Democrats will move to the left to save itself, or it will become the even more irrelevent "moderate" party is still is.

This country is now divided between the extreme right and everyone else. To counter the right, a strong, unapologetic left party is needed, something the DLC/moderates are not providing.

It's time for real change in this country.

[hiphopnation]

20. or perhaps even more than just 'one' alternate party.

I mean, I feel as though there needs to be MANY more seats put at the bargaining table (i.e. Congress). The CBC, for example, has bee so pathetically ignored and margainalized in the last four years it may behoove black leaders and civil libertarians to break off and form thier own party, minorty though it would be, they're sure as hell not getting the love the deserve from the Dem party. It's so pathetic that the Kerry campaign is relying on Clinton to go "rally the black voters." Why the hell hasn't he figured out how to do that himself?

I see several "new lefts" forming and think it can't be a bad thing.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Too many and you lose power.

I'd love to see this country have many parties, forming coalitions, but, in the current and near future state of affairs a unified left party would be most likely to become a force to be reckoned with. An American version of the old Front Populaire.

[BeFree]

18. After the election

Let me say that Kerry had best win. If not, we are doomed..

After the election we will still be facing a formidable enemy. Believe it or not, there are people who want to be in control of everything we say or do, and the last three years they have gotten a leg up.

They will still be around with a Kerry in the Whitehouse and they will be pissed as ever. We can't let our guard down for a second. Our democratic republic requires us to be ever vigilant against the enemies of Liberty and Justice for All.

Don't worry about what will happen at DU. DU is a force that grows everyday. DU is unstoppable whether it remains on the web or is relegated to street corner talking.

What America needs is the good, sound leadership, Kerry will provide. We need to be prepared to support him by fighting the Sinclairs of the world. We can do it. Just look at what we have done to Sinclair in the last few weeks.

The only question we need be asking is: Who's are next target?

Kerry On!

[hiphopnation]

21. ...

I respectfully disagree. Count me among the "voting against bush" crowd as oposed to voing for Kerry's "good, sound leadership". I have no doubts in him as a skilled politicion but that is not the subject I wish to address here. I am talking about the realm outside of Washington politics; the fervor and passion that has been piqued with the facists in office in this country, as evidenced often, but not all the time, here at DU.

[BeFree]

22. Disagree if you will...

Do you not know that Kerry is an enemy of fascists and fascism? If not, you've much too learn.

Regarding the realm outside of Washington politics.... the realm is infected with a dis-ease(sic) I call: Reaganism. It makes people feel as if they have control, whilst the most observant know we have little, mainly due to the Reaganism run rampant.

It is Reaganism which has brought to a fever pitch the discourse we now experience, and it's chief spokesman these days is B*sh. It is Reaganism which infects the populace with an authortarianistic attitude leading to such things as the Iraqi invasion, FMA act, and NCLB.

We must drive a stake through the heart of the vampire sucking the blood out of our democratic republic. Vampire, thy name is Reagan.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Absolutely. Kerry is, at best, a stepping stone for the left.

Kerry, whatever his intentions, will have go along with the establishment and play politics to get anything done.

The millstone around his neck is the phony "war on terror" and the quagmire in Iraq. Both of which have no exit. The powers that be keep insisting on attacking the symptoms of the discontent in the 3rd world instead of dealing with causes. They are vainly trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it. Much as the Israelis have done with the Palestinians. Ignoring the obvious fact that it doesn't work.

The left will turn against Kerry (if he's elected) and the status quo, simply because he will be incapable of affecting any real change.

America itself has to radically change course if it is to save itself. Shouting "We're Number One!" at the world while ripping it off, is losing it's power to intimidate. As proven by the fact the "World's Strongest Military" is incapable of defeating a lightly armed resistance in Iraq.

We have reached that point that all empires seem to reach, when we attempt to cling to power through brute force. The 20th Century may have been the "American Century" but the 21st is becoming the century of rebellion against it.

[hiphopnation]

26. Wow.

Excellent post and thanks for those words. This is a gem of a line that I intend to use ad homonym against bush supporters that I know, with your blessing, of course: The powers that be keep insisting on attacking the symptoms of the discontent in the 3rd world instead of dealing with causes

The reason I brought up multiple parties is because it seems that America is getting a bit big for its britches. Some of that power must be broken up and distributed equally amonst smaller factions. It's the only thing about the libertarian platform that attracts me is "letting the state handle all matters that concern the state."

I often wonder about the real intentions and motives of the neo-conservative movement, though. I tend to believe that any real political power they are interested in only to the extent that it serves the interests of their private sector energy business buddies. The shit that Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perele, Kristol and the PNACers spout off in their mission statement I see as something of a red herring. Sure they want to dominate the world with brute strength but only to the extent that they end up controlling the rest of the oil. They all know it's going soon. To this end, I'm not entirely convinced that they even need a second bush term.

Thanks again for your thoughts here.

[ulysses]

27. they don't *want* to deal with the causes

because the causes - and the discontent as well - serve their interests.

We, all of us, have to *organize* across "interest group" boundaries, get on the same page, understand what is happening to us, and move forward. Kerry is exactly what you say, a stepping stone. A breather if you will. Carrying it forward is up to us.

[Skittles]

25. we didn't roll over on Sinclair, we won't roll over on the election

and we won't roll over on eight years of Clinton-style witch-hunting on Kerry, either.

[m berst]

29. run, hide, or resist

Excellent thread with many good posts.

Opinions can vary, of course, as to the best action or the best ideas, as well as about political philosophies. But what we are up against is people with a different view of reality, and I think it is a dangerous view. I believe that we are facing a life and death crisis for our country and for our future. All of the evidence points that way. I am tired of arguing about it, and I can't go along la te da pretending that I don't see it. Others think that there is some credibility to what they see on TV or what the herd is saying or what the polls say. They think that it is more or less politics as usual, standard normal, and if we can just get "the chimp" out of office, and sign a few petitions, and go to a few meetings things will be all right.

God bless them and I wish them the best, but I am tired of arguing with them. It is too draining. I keep watching the right wingers figuratively streaking past us in their lear jet while we are slogging along on foot with worn out soles on our shoes. They will win. They are playing hard ball, and we are playing at nice-nice. I don't mean we should get mean, ugly or violent - not at all. For moral reasons I won't support the use of violence, but also for practical reasons - they have control of massive weaponry.

What I mean is get tough, and face the hard reality and stop living on false hope and waiting for the other shoe to drop. I am so tired of this - "Omigod!!! Did you see what they did NOW????" at each new horrifying revelation. We are just reacting, and we are endlessly shocked by each step that they take to destroy our democracy. That is what they are doing - destroying our democracy and we are not up to speed - not even close. They are beating the pants off of us. We should not be surprised - all of their plans are right out in the open.

I don't know how many reports of torture, corruption, theft, cheating, murdered civilians, secret documents and plans, media manipulation etc. etc. people have to read before it becomes more than an academic excercise for them, or until they realize that running the political equivalent of a church bake sale or lemonade stand isn't going to get it.

I want to start or join a resistance movement. I want to act on the reality I see and not on some fantasy that makes me feel better. I think that all the cards are on the table and that democracy itself - the great and noble American experiment in self-government - is on the line. I think this is the last ditch and the last chance. I think that resistance is the only answer and that the sooner we get on with it, the less drained and conflicted and scared we will be.

Some think that is is a false alarm, or that it hasn't gotten bad enough yet to make drastic decisions. If it is a false alarm, then it is a false alarm. No harm done by going into full emergency mode on matters this vital and with evidence this compelling. But hanging out month after month debating "is it happening? Isn't it happening? Did you hear about this piece of evidence? What do you think we should do about this?" and arguing about who is too radical and who isn't, and how far we should go and who has the best platform - this is just not going to work.

I think everyone should either simply ignore everything that is happening and go back to their life and be happy and party, or leave the country and start a new life, or join the resistance. Liberal and progressive politics as usual is a trap, and it is a miserably upsetting and frustrating trap. It is no way to live, and it gets no results. It does kill time, but so does partying and partying is more fun.

Back a year ago when there were thousands and thousands of people excited and active and involved, all of the ABB people, and many of the Kerry people, and all of the professional politicians said "don't get too radical, don't be too militant, work within the system, be practical" and on and on. Pshaw. We watched as people got frustrated, disgusted, burned out and discouraged and wandered off. They didn't leave because we were too radical. They left because we weren't radical enough. They didn't leave because we were too alarming, they left because we were too soothing and re-assuring when they knew in their bones that something is seriously, seriously wrong. They got involved in the Dean, Clark and Kucinich campaigns, and they supported the Greens and Nader, because they knew that the country was in serious trouble, and they saw hope in a radical tell-the-full-truth approach to the problems, and they were encouraged by the solidarity and comeraderie we had.

The Democratic party, and the Kerry supporters and the ABB people destroyed all of that - perhaps motivated by a sincere belief that it was a practical necessity to do so. Oh, sure, many blamed us - the radicals - but that is a lie.

So I am crossing over. Call me radical. Call me whatever. I am ready to make the decision - traitors are trying to take over our country and enslave us, and I can't play games pretending that it is not happening anymore. I can't pretend that politics as usual is the answer. I want to resist, run, or hide. I want to stop agonizing over it. I want to stop feeling like there is a sword hanging over my head. I want to stop feeling frustrated. I am tired of being an observer. I want to stop questioning my own sanity.

[hiphopnation]

32. Excellent post. Thank you for this.

We are just reacting, and we are endlessly shocked by each step that they take to destroy our democracy. That is what they are doing - destroying our democracy and we are not up to speed - not even close. They are beating the pants off of us. We should not be surprised - all of their plans are right out in the open.

This is so very true and frustrating for me both here at DU and around the office and family situations when this kind of situation comes up: "Well did you hear what happened....". As I role my eyes and try to act surprised there is an increasingly sinking feeling inside me that wants to shout "OF COURSE I HEARD, why the hell are you surprised by this they've been slowly working to wards this for two years!!" Perhaps most depressing for me is the lack of moral outrage and public accountability for this illegal war. There was a thread here a few weeks ago titled "Why bush should and will win" and the poster laid out that since still half of the electorate appears to be supporting him that America does not even have the first clue what the fascists who've taken control are up to and that indeed things are going to have to get much much worse before they get any better.

What happened to the Dean campaign by the DLC and the media is perhaps one of the most distressing and depressing things that has occurred in this entire campaign. The media is slowly becoming at state controlled propaganda apparatus with no resemblance to the "free press" set out in the Constitution. This is the sign of an ill society.

This is a great post and I've much more to say though I've got to get going right now. More later. Thanks again. :thumbsup:

[noiretextatique]

30. where are the left's ideologue's?

i hear your statement about this left/right split quite often, but i don't see leftist ideologues on CNN, and i don't see them in washington.
i see rw ideologues; collectively, they call themselves the republican party. there is nothing approaching parity on the left...not even nader qualifies with less than 3% of the vote in 2000. the rw had such a stranglehold on this country that they hunted clinton, who wasn't exactly a liberal, and certainly couldn't govern as one, and installed * into office by judicial fiat.
imho, the rw has so lowered expectations of what government can and should be that the left has been effectively silenced...the DLC is the anti-left within the democratic party. but i agree with you about * being a uniter in creating opposition to him, and invigorating the left, and awakening a lot of people who were content during the clinton years...including me.
i have long predicted that after a democrat wins, DU memebership will decline significantly, but it will still survive. perhaps i am an optimist, but i think * foray into fascism has created a movement that will not be pacified by "poltics as usual."
as to what needs to be done...i have to think more about that. and i have to go now, but thanks for the thread, and i will post again tomorrow.

[hiphopnation]

31. ...

Of course there are no ideologues on the left because by our very definition we do not prop up party ideologues and idols the way the right is prone to do. The powers that be on the right implement ideology by using scare tactics and by milling the fear of the electorate into the jingoistic fervor the likes of which we saw post 9/11. This is also the reason that there have appeared SO MANY more rw ideolouges in recent years. The left, by its very definition and the way it disseminates information and digests and implements its philosophies cannot allow for one or two or even five ideologes to stand from the proverbial mountain perch and preach the word. It would never fly with the likes of us.

I am also included as one of the "awakened". Not that I was politcally asleep before just never aware of the evils that could take hold of our population so quickly and with such vicious expediency the way it has in only FOUR SHORT YEARS. Honestly, I am not optimistic and I am more prone to mulling the possibility of leaving the country whether bush wins again or not. As I expressed earlier in this thread, depending on what happens with the Congress, Kerry will likely be hamstrung at least by a republican controlled house; we'll see what happens with the senate. Talk about a lame duck. For some reason I can't put to much faith and stock in all of the sweeping social, domestic, and foriegn reforms he plans on implementing. I'm just voting for "non-evil".

Thanks for the post nooiretblu. Always enjoy having you part of the conversation. :thumbsup: