Have you ever seriously considered leaving the country?

[Nimrod]

I'm curious. A lot of people threatened to defect if * was elected the first time, but 99% of those threats were empty. But even ignoring the current administration, have you ever looked around you and said "Oh, to hell with it all" and given serious thought to just leaving this place to eat itself alive?

I've never directly said "I'm moving to Canada if..." but I have considered it, and am still considering it. Every day I wake up and get just a little more disgusted with my native land, and eventually it may get to be too much.

What, if anything, would make you walk into your closet right now, grab a suitcase, and head for greener pastures?

[RPM]

1. check with me in two weeks

hopefully I won't have to start my planning.

[Wols]

4. I've seriously thought about it....

If W gets to put up two or three more Scalias his next term that might seal the deal for me. I have pets which rules out England. But anyway, yeah, I've thought about selling the house and just leaving. I am obviously way out of touch with many of my fellow Americans. If the moron is re-elected it will be a very sad day for America. I can then offically say I am living in a nation of dumbasses.

[sweetheart]

13. wrong about the UK

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/quarantine/pets/procedures/support-info/usa_canada.htm

There is no longer any quarantine... check link

[teach1st]

2. I don't think I'd give up

This is my country. If Bush wins, I'm staying and keeping up the resistance. Whatever the Corporatists decide to throw at us, whatever rights they try to suppress, I'm staying and working against them. Too many good men and women have fought too long and too hard for this nation for me to give up.

[Toots]

3. I live within a few miles of the Canadian border and have traveled

there often. It is a very nice country. They care about their citizens very much.

[Deja Q]

5. Will it matter? Is it still possible?

The US's reputation has gone downhill.

If * wins, especially if the public decides, the other countries won't be so happy with us.

Our carnage will continue to be made.

* will continue to act like the aliens in "Mars Attacks" (the aliens killed the Earthlings while saying "We are your friends!!")

At some point they will HAVE to respond.

How else do you stop a madman?

Except, unlike Saddam who has proven to be contained - and it's irrelevant that he wanted to re-start programs, he had nothing. A stark contrast to *'s raving that we were imminent danger before he started to change his excuses every 5 minutes, * is not contained and HAS weapons of mass destruction. He's used them. And he will contrive ways to go after every country he hates. Which will include any contry that does not bow down to him (can you say "Britain" and "Russia"? Maybe "Iran" but I'm sure * will go after them too, what with them being part of an "Axis of Evil" along with Iraq, North Korea, Syria, and a few other counties that rather turns the Axis into a Mobius strip... :eyes:

Ultimately, nowhere will be safe.

But that's all worst case scenario.

Kerry will win, the armageddon* supporters are definitely fewer number and they know it - hence the distortions in the media.

[Nimrod]

7. Leaving would be selfish and possibly futile

No arguments there. And I would fully expect the US to try something against our northern neighbors in a heartbeat if we decided they had something we wanted. It would be easy to get the public to go along with it, they'd have to push the anti-French bigotry in a slightly different direction is all.

But sometimes I just get the strongest urge to sneak across the border, build a log cabin somewhere near Calgary, maybe make friends with a grizzly bear or something, and try to live out the rest of my life quietly and with a little dignity.

[Gildor Inglorion]

6. Yes, I have....but

no other country wants you if you're over 55 and not independently wealthy. If you can't support yourself without working, I guess they think you'd be taking jobs away from their own citizens, and they're probably right. So, unless I happen to win a lottery or something, I guess I'm stuck here, like it or not.

[Ardee]

8. not so, not so at all

I had planned on retiring to my place in Oregon, but, as that time approaches and as this nation descends into madness my attention has turned to Mexico, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, etc....Mexico requires a guaranteed income of $1500 for permanent non resident status (social security for one at 65 should cover that....Friends in all three of the places I mentioned state that they live like gentry on little money...and yes the Health Care there is as good or better than here (believe it!) and available to all quite inexpensively.....

Too bad Pocho is no longer here or he could present factual first hand information of this subject...oh well too bad , for him ,for us, for common sense and for fairness too.....

[qanda]

9. Yes!

eom

[sweetheart]

10. Yes i have. n/t

.

[xultar]

11. Yes,and still thinking. I don't like it here things are too crazy the

right wing is to nazi like and that makes me very uncomfortable.

[Nay]

12. Yes. I am a Canadian as well as an American citizen, and I could

step across the border while blowing raspberries in everyone's face.

The problem is dragging the family with me. That would be tougher, but not undoable.

[cliss]

14. Yes, I have. And for those who are considering it,

there are plenty of countries that will welcome Americans, elderly or not. New Zealand comes to mind. They're looking for people. Also Portugal, many countries in South America.

I read a book recently where you can actually BUY yourself a citizenship to their country. Lots of countries "sell" citizenship as a way to increase revenue.

Many business people get foreign citizenships so they won't be targeted for terrorism. In case terrorists board a plane, they can show their Brazilian passport, and they're safer than they would be if they pulled out an American passport.

I already have a foreign passport. The bottom line is: if Bush steals another election, it might be something to look into.

[Tom_Foolery]

15. Nope!!!

That would make the neo-cons so happy if we all just left them here to do what they want to this country. In my mind, THEY ARE the terrorists. I think other countries are looking to people like us to fight the extremists and restore the USA's good name.

[Democracy Died 2004]

16. yes i did.

It was after 8 years of hell with Raygun and then 4 years of Field Marshall Bush the 1st. I had been working in Germany and was fed up with America and years of failed policy and arrogance. I had filed for citizenship even. Then I watched a miracle as Clinton was elected and decided that i would come home. Now i wonder what the frigg i came back for. Maybe just maybe America will win this election.

[no_hypocrisy]

17. Yes, in 1984. Looked like Reagan was going to get a second term.

I signed up to get a job teaching in ANY American school in a European country. I went to London for an interview, got hired for a school in Zurich, Switzerland, only to have the offer rescinded 3 months later because of the Swiss unemployment problem at that time (Swiss nationals had first dibs on jobs before "immigrant".)

Resigned, I stayed here. Should've kept looking . . .

[MuseRider]

18. Thought about it but will not do it.

My husband wants out now, has wanted out for quite a while. I have a farm and lots of animals that would make it impossible for me to make a quick retreat even if I wanted to. Nope, I am staying. I refuse to let these bastards have my country thinking that nobody dissents. No matter how bad it gets I am too stubborn, angry and think too much of the ideals we are supposed to stand for to just leave. No place on the planet will be unaffected by these guys. I do wish my sons would leave though, I worry so much about their future. What would make me leave right now? Nothing, it will be much too late to leave by the time I really decide to go. I wish anyone who leaves luck and good fortune and leave with the thought of helping us from the outside OK?

[Selwynn]

19. I don't know anyone who threatened to leave in 2000

I don't think there were too many ready to flee the country in 2000, because no one really knew what Bush would become. Back then most people thought that he would govern as a moderate instead of running to the fanatical right.

But now, we know. So it makes the question that much more pertinent.

Personally, I won't leave and leave my family and friends here. I'll face what we face together with them. For now..

[LaReservaPr]

23. If the Draft comes after me.

I hear that Costa Rica is really nice.

[bleedingheart]

20. Only for vacation

[lil-petunia]

21. Cowards, all. THIS IS OUR DAMNED COUNTRY, and if we have to fight

to regain it, then let us fight.

Leaving is not the answer. It is the easiest step, but the one most wrong.

200+ years ago some brave people lost their lives fighting tyranny. How DARE we abandon their ideals and dreams, their toil and bloodshed, their hard work and success?

Just because it is Hard Work? You bet it is hard. Damned hard. But worth it.

[Wols]

25. Good point.

But I'm tired of living amongst so many clueless nimrods. I lived in Europe for a year and there's a much higher level of sanity.

[AmerDem]

31. KUDOS to lil-petunia

Tell it like it is!:toast:

[sweetheart]

35. The jews who left germany were not cowards

You might be more circumspect in your approach. If they lock
down the prison, you will not be in a position to "fight", rather
you could be interred as a national security threat and denied
your right to habeas corpus.

This thread repeats itself about once a week on DU, and someone
always says "cowards... yadayadayada". Someone else then chimes
up and says, "sometimes only the expatriots survive."

If you feel at risk, i suggest you leave. I did so i left.

You don't so you stay. Speak for yourself.

[lil-petunia]

40. NO, but by then it was too late.

Early on, before Krystalnacht, even before Hitler was appointed as chancellor, had any group stood up and said, "These people are insane, they are evil, they are destroying our country", I suspect that HIndenburg and others would not have dealt with him so rashly or cravenly. But, they didn't. Not out loud. Instead, some were drawn to him because the government did not portray him for what he was. His song and dance of " Your enemies are here, the Jews! They are causing your economic problems!" was a great excuse. It precluded the typical german from facing reality, it offered a perfect target (Like Al Qaida and Bush's undefined enemies who hate our freedom) and it offered a solution, final or not, to those who simply wanted someone, anyone to be brave enough to lead. And take responsibility.


Much like those faces with Lukashenko, Stalin and others before them, the powers that were felt that they could grab the supporters to strengthen their own weak-kneed power base, and "control" the wayward fool. The fool was sitting in the mirror at all times, however.

If we do NOT STAND TALL NOW, we will have no choice but to run.
I suggest we stand before it is too late.

[dddem]

42. If everyone felt like you...

There would be no reason to consider leaving. Unfortunately, the majority of people I talk to would rather think about the next reality show, or Michael Jackson and Scott Peterson than give serious thought to "of the People, by the people and for the people". This scares me because the people in charge DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE. And most of us are allowing it to happen because we are too naive.

In addition, My husband lost his job of 23 years, and after almost 2 years of looking, found something that pays about half of what he was making. Although we haven't lost our home; our savings (including 401K) is all gone, and our credit is pretty much shot. For almost a year my children had no health insurance (it was either cobra payments, or my mortgage); the IRS wants 30k from me because I had to close my retirement account in order to live and I'm having a hard time justifying staying where it's such a struggle.

I just got my first oil bill of the season ($400+) and I'm seriously thinking that a warm island somewhere might work for me.

On the other hand, if the Red Sox can pull this off, it might restore some of my faith in the American Dream. And if Kerry wins, all bets are off - I'm stayin' put!

[cire4]

50. UGH...Leaving the country DOES NOT mean you're leaving the fight

You can vote from aborad
You can register others to vote from abroad
You can write letters to congressmen/media outlets from abroad
You can phone bank from abroad
You can meet-ups abroad
You can stage protests from abroad
You can get access to the same information (many times even better) from abroad
You can convince other potential voters from abroad.
You can stage GOTV drives from abroad.

Ever heard of Democrats Abroad (www.democratsabroad.org). Its an organization of Democrats who left the country, but who are still fighting. Everyday, there are people in the UK, France, Russia, Japan, Australia etc. that are working their collective asses off trying to get John Kerry elected. Are they cowards? Don't be spreading this information that leaving America means you are leaving the fight. We live in a modern, international global society where fighting from outside you country is perfectly possible(hell, the French showed it was possible in the 1940s).

Furthermore, leaving the country makes you better understand the strengths and weaknesses of America, which makes you more prepared to fight. Additionally, leaving the country does not mean you are giving up on America. Many ex-pats eventually return to America after experiencing another culture. If everybody in America spent some part of their life in another country, then America would be a much much much more liberal and progressive place. This should be encouraged and not deemed as 'cowardly.'

[NuttyFluffers]

55. also! earn more $$ abroad

no more crazy paycheck to paycheck bare survival. supposedly america is where you can earn outrageous $$, but it hasn't been like that where i live for quite a while. and before i move to a less expensive part of the country, i'd rather move to another country.

getting the insurance elephants off my back would save me beaucoup bucks and that's worth everything. $ = power, power = capacity to impose my will, capacity to impose my will = change toward my beliefs. all in all a better deal for america if i can get money instead of living a working poor hand-to-mouth existence here. not a hard equation is it?

[serryjw]

98. Great conversation BUT when Peak OIL comes

which country will be the BEST and the worst to live in? Honestly want to know.

[gpandas]

112. the tone of this thread suggests...

that people are leaving this country to live in another country as a citizen of that country and not coming back as a citizen of the u.s. i,for one, am addressing that situation. leaving for a while can be beneficial, but it's not the subject here.

[Democracy Died 2004]

71. I'll raise your Coward comment

with a hearty "Dick Head"

[lil-petunia]

83. If I understand you correctly, then I'll see your bid and smile

[gpandas]

22. I THINK people who leave their country ...

to these despicable tyrants are cowards, and won't be missed in "times that try men's souls."

[China_cat]

76. Did you ever think

that some of us who just want to leave have done our fighting and are tired and just want some peace?

I did my stint during the Vietnam era. Including jail and an FBI dossier. Ever wake up in the morning with feds on your porch taking pictures through your windows? I have. Ever had your phone tapped and your mail read/confiscated? I have.

Then I fought for the right of women to be safe in their homes from abusive spouses and the right to call it rape even when the perpetrator is your husband.

Ever had your house set on fire? I have.

I'm just too damned old and too damned sick to do it again. I want at least a little bit of life for myself before I die.

[gpandas]

109. more understandable in your case...

but why? women, minorities, the poor, the disabled, the elderly, and many others have enjoyed the fruits of your gallant efforts. why quit now, when your courage is needed more than ever, and your country needs you as never before? the youth of our corporate mind- control need sage advice from ones such as you to guide them away from the getmo' choices of materialism, and back to concern for their fellow citizens. maybe a little corny sounding in this sophisticated world, but the old quote, "give me liberty or give me death" still works for me. nobody runs me out of my country.

[China_cat]

121. I've spent my life fighting for others

There's not much of it left and, just for a change, I want it for me. Let someone else fight for me for a change.

[gpandas]

122. so long, old soldier...

i'm truly sad that we are losing you.i'm sixty and retired and fairly well off. i spent a large portion of my life providing for myself, actually. lifetime dem, 60's protester, union autoworker,i now feel the urge for political activism as never before. i hope you realize that i don't consider you a coward.

[Cerridwen]

24. Yes, for about 20 years now.

I think instead, I'll stay and fight. So now my big decision is to do so armed or not. We have concealed carry in NV. I may look into it; and guns make me extremely nervous.

I also need to make sure I'm able to fight without my family and pets being put in danger; either physically or employment wise. I also need to make sure my employment won't be threatened. In other words, I have to guarantee my freedom first so that I can help fight for everyone's freedom. May be selfish or may be good strategy. I'll leave someone else to judge.

The fact I even have to think this way is what horrifies me the most about living in the U.S. today.

[Wols]

26. Maybe we could split up the country....

Let the Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwel/Republicans have half and the rest of us have half. I would be happy with that arrangement. No doubt the Republicans would want to take the sane people's half and fuck it up for everyone.

[goddess40]

27. Yes, I won't let * murder my sons

in his illegal war.

[TankLV]

28. Yep - even did some research on it.

It's always in the back of my mind.

Don't want to end up like the Jews in Germany who never thought it would be anything worse than a few years of a bad political environment and never dreamed of gas chambers and concentration camps.

I could never rule out such a thing with this fundie bunch - particularly since they would likely come for me first as a gay person AND a Democrat.

[smirkymonkey]

44. What did you come up with?

Would be interested in hearing about your results. It's seems as though if you are not independently wealthy, setting up residence someplace else would be next to impossible.

[TankLV]

86. Basically, if you are over 30, cannot survive without any income for more

than a couple years, and are not one of the targeted skills groups, you're out of luck. I was only checking Canada.

Pretty much told me I had to stay here.

I will NOT let it get as bad as 1930's Germany before I leave. I will grab my dogs, pictures, and max out my credit cards, and head for the border. Guess I'll be on the run - but alive.

Isn't it wonderful that the gang currently occupying OUR government has brought us to even DISCUSS this topic?!

[smirkymonkey]

90. Thanks for the info.

I guess I am stuck, but if it gets really bad I would take my chances and go anyway.

[sweetheart]

96. I researched extensively

My research, that i would recommend to anyone considering, is to
fly to ALL the possible countries you think you might want to live
in. One of the first problems is language, as if your not fluent
in another one, it limits the options for those needing to work and
fully engage in their new culture. My foreign language skills suck,
so i was pretty much constrained to the british colonies, not
forgetting, that america is a colony that has forgotten its origin.

My list narrowed to:
Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, Canada, India

in reverse order:
India - love the climate and the culture, can go a long way on
few bux if needed, possible 5 years entry visa, and once there, as
with the US, find a way to stay... job prospects/healthcare sucko
I checked it out though, visiting round the country to see what
i liked.

Japan/Korea - I hated the racism endemic to the culture, realizing
that i could live there for decades, and never be a citizen or an
equal to the people there... not. (love the culture, also don't
think much of far eastern feminism - very masculine cultures)

Australia - Lovely place, economics tough, as its remoteness makes
some professions scarce, and heavy engineering and such is not
so present. I did not like the masculine culture there, very crude
and good-old boy like, it turned me off to the place.

New Zealand - Outstanding place and people, if you can get the
economics sorted, all you need to do is be resident for a few years
and get citizenship. So far away, and such a tiny country less
than 4m people. Great for nature... stewing racial problem with
the maori's that left me feeling not so good in areas, and the
same australian-sorta masculine heman bullshit.

Canada - Really like canada, bloody cold, perfect for single persons
needing refuge, as the skills lottery is just a matter of grinding
your time in some courses to qualify for citizensship.

UK/Scotland - Much warmer than canada, sophistocated culture,
university-linked immigration to scotland, (attend uni and stay on
becoming a citizen) excellent natural forests and lotsa stuff like
that. Outstanding womens equality, and job prospects for engineers
and other professions that might find oceania short on jobs.

If i spoke other languages, i'd try adding Germany, Holland, Belgium
and France to the list, and i might still one day live in those
countries... nothing is forever.

So after visiting lots of countries, i found i most got along with
scotland and its people.

Some people like central america, costa rica, mexico... my mexico
visits turned me off.... so i dropped that direction.

Check places out and use your intution to see whether it will jell,
as its soooo dang important that emotionally, you can feel fulfilled
there.... as it may very will be the place you live the next 70
years.

Godspeed to anyone who's looking, for the price of an airline
ticket, its the easiset test... the internet is for after you're
sure you want to go, and then you can research the hurdles, visas and
what not. In almost all cases, just like in the USA, attending
a local university will give you street-cred in the country you're
migrating to, and the uni will help you find housing and stuff for
the first move, that is often the hardest.

namaste,
-s

[TahitiNut]

29. Yup. And I continue to explore the options.

I've looked at options in Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. Right now, I contemplate retiring to France - possibly in the south of France, but not the Jura.

I did my 42 months in the military and got spat at. (And I get called a liar for even saying so.) I did my whistle-blowing and got hung out to dry. I did my time and watched my countrymen sneer. I'm now old enough to have earned the right to vote with my feet.

[AmerDem]

30. no

for those who even considered leaving, get the fuck out now! If you don't have the courage and of love for our country to stand up and beat back these fascists then you are only an American in name.

[Doctor_J]

32. i am hoping to escape

but Mrs. TOJ is starting to have 2nd thoughts. If the next 4 years here are marked by the same deterioriation as the last 4, this country will be nearly unliveable by 2008. It's amazing how much damage the GOP WH, house, senate, scotus, and media have been able to wreak in only 4 years.

Anyway, if * steals another election, I'm going to do my damnest to get to Canada or the UK.

[helnwhls]

33. I am confused

When I hear this whine from folks about leaving the USA, it confuses me. I wonder what the quitters expect to find. Do they really think that running across some lines on a map will keep them safe from whatever atrocities another 4 years of Bush will unleash on the world?

I have traveled and lived in countries outside the USA. Their are people in those other countries, too. Do you really believe the same political type of crap does not take place in other governments? If Bush and his cronies manage to steal another 4 years, I plan to stay here and fight for my country.

If the idea that you might have to break a sweat for what you believe in sounds too rough, Godspeed! Get out of the way, the rest of us will have a lot of work to do. The rest of us will take care of business while you turn tail.

You are free to make your own choices. Dress it up and call it what you like, but don't loose sight of the fact that if it gets tough, your choice is to run.

[H2O Man]

34. exiled from the land of the free .....

I am considering relocating my family, because I am unwilling to sacrifice my children upon the alter of Halliburton. But that being said, I would need to return. While I am confident that Kerry will win the election, if the Bush administration is able to cling to power, I believe that we will need to put into practice the tactics of Gandhi and King.

[Lady President]

36. Yes, but I don't want to leave

Coincidentally, my mother broached this subject with me yesterday. I live in Ohio so Canada is only about 3 hrs. away, I can read some French, and I work for a company with jobs available there. I want to stay here and I'm sure I will, but my parents would like me to leave. They're afraid my outspoken ways will land me in trouble soon.

I come from a very close family and live 15 minutes from my folks. They would never suggest me moving unless they were truly nervous about the country's future. It's very sad.

[ThoughtCriminal]

37. Funny - a couple of Freeps talking about it if Kerry wins

On one of my hobby boards. And get this - they were thinking about...

Canada.

I thought that was hilarious. But think about it, what authoritarian 3rd world hell hole would be right wing enough for these guys?

[flygal]

41. Yep, I've heard a couple of freeps say the same...

This just proves how stupid they are. Where in world is more conservative than US? Some were suggesting Europe - HELLO!!! Socialist evil bastards abound there! But, they will be amonst an awful lot of white people.

[xxqqqzme]

38. got married in '68

between MLK's & RFK's assassinations. The war was a mess, protesting was being ignored, the Dem convention was a disaster - we left the country 4 the next 4 years. Former spouse got a job teaching outside the US. It was fucking scary in '68 if U were on the left cuz the commie boogey man was still in play 'n j edgar hoover was still in power.

[flygal]

39. As someone who lives in a foreign country.....

I have LOTS of people joking they're moving in if * wins. I was home a month ago and it was nice to get out of the country and away from the election. Just reading that post about Falwell on CNN - THANK GOD I can't be subjected to that garbage over here. We do get CNN Int. but it's pretty liberal. And mostly soccer news lol.

And yes, I've already voted! :)

[dave502d]

43. I'll stay hear for the fight,never ran from a fight in my life.

[JCMach1]

45. Already did it... for my dream job in the Emirates

:)

I haven't regretted one minute...

[Zorra]

46. I left after the Supreme Court appointed that little weasel dictator.

There is no way that I am ever going to support a warmongering, democracy crushing dictatorship like America has right now. Not one red cent of my money in the past 4 years has gone to support the illegitimate government or Bu$h's war. I pretty much knew what that bloodthirsty POS was going to do if he got in power, from his 9/11 Reichstag imitation right on through pre-emptive war and establishing a secretive anti-democratic one party government. I do not ever want any innocent blood on my hands or on my conscience.

Even if Bu$h were to retain power in a landslide this election, he can never be the legitimate POTUS, because of his theft of the 2000 election.

The last four years were truly awful for the US. If Bu$h is re-selected, "you ain't seen nothin' yet".

America will become a hopeless Orwellian nightmare in the iron grip of inhumane PNAC monsters intent on crushing democracy in America and instituting permanent warfare throughout the world.

[DarbyUSMC]

47. Yes, but money is the reason I don't. This is no more a free country

than Sing-Sing is a health spa. The little freedoms; the big freedoms; they are eroding away and we get diddly-squat chances to replace the politicians and big businesses who dictate who does what in this country. Starting at the local level with insane zoning laws (you can't park your own RV in your own driveway. It doesn't look the way we want our neighborhood to look) to the big stuff: right to a speedy trial? Right. Years can go by before a case goes to trial. Innocent until proven guilty? Just like these elections are just about decided in the newspapers, assigning colors to states so why bother voting if your state is already red or blue? Just the folks in those undecided states need to vote. The electoral college is not understood by a majority of the working Joes out there. I think it has long outlived its purpose. There is a place in Iowa that is totally run by members of a particular church and the law states you may not mow your lawn on Sunday among other things dictated by that sect. Good grief.

Where would I go if I did have the money? Bermuda probably or any place where I wouldn't have my blood pressure going higher every day that a selected president is in office. I fear the attitude of some of the older people I know will prevail. "Yes, I saw the debates but it doesn't matter, my mind is already made up. I'm sticking with our president." That is the mind set around here. They don't want to learn or compare, just stick with the party that their relatives before them supported.

[Hello_Kitty]

48. It's surprisingly difficult to do that

Most other countries' immigration policies are more stringent than ours and it's not easy to officially renounce your U.S. citizenship if you were born here. There was a little feature on that in Harpers or the Atlantic Monthly about it recently where they described the rather arduous process of leaving the country in disgust if * wins.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. I go back and forth on this

I have enough professional and personal contacts in Japan so that I could probably get a residence visa somehow, and I could definitely support myself. Right now, I'm very alienated from American mass culture and am appalled that even 10% of the country could worship (and "worship" is the correct word here) George W. Bush.

On the other hand, I have family concerns here.

And I would never condemn anyone who chooses to leave. You have to do what's right for you, not what someone else thinks is righteous.

[frank frankly]

51. my parents are here and i would love to love america again

but we shall see...

i also do not have the money to leave right now.

[sweetheart]

52. I left in 97 after NBC "swiftboated" my religious group

When prime time public slander is directed at your free religion,
and nobody (no DU) even notices to bother asking if justice were done,
and it happens repeatedly over years, there comes a point.

Mine was when the last "swiftboat dateline" made working in the US
nigh impossible, as my name was being circulated by the "boatcrew"
asswipes on a blacklist... so i started working in canada, and then
eventually the UK where i am today.

I really really really strongly believe that the first amendment is
crucial to what makes america great... and when it erodes, nothing
is left but factories and toxic dumping.

I believe that these nazis will not stop until they have destroyed
all religions but their own cult, and that this is really a religious
pogrom against non-christians/atheists... people who will NOT
be forced in to the fold... and they are so ignorant, that they've
no concept of the historical parallels they mimic with the inquisition,
the crusades, and the nazi reich.

Outside, the pastures are much greener, and my family is very happy.
We have each other, and the goddess mother earth to celibrate our
great fortune in being free. It deeply saddens me to see tony
blair greasily copying the rhetoric accross the atlantic, as if
there is something worth copying... and it is him that is the largest
danger to britain and its people these days... as bush is in the US.

God willing, they'll both be gone short on.

[mr blur]

53. You are right about Blair

But I think his days are numbered. As they say, "If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas". Blair makes me ashamed to be a member of the Labour Party.

[Tight_rope]

54. Oh...I'll be leaving... When?...I don't know!...but I'm leaving anyway!

It's a damn shame what use to be the riches, powerfull country in the world is slowly becoming a Third world country. Unfortunately, after Bush* the US will never rise again. He has done tooo much damage.

[mr blur]

59. er... have you ever BEEN to a third world country?

[Tight_rope]

95. I'm from a third world country...so yes I know!

[number6]

56. yes, and I have left it before .....

....

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

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[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

60. It's people who think like this

Who made up my mind to get the fuck out. You scare me, "dem" or not.

[Name removed]

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[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

102. self delete

I think you can guess my response.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

105. Why don't you try emigrating sometime?

All you flag-wavers seem to think there are countries all over the world dying to take Americans. Or are you proposing I commit a crime (illegal immigration)?

I think you are probably white and affluent--someone who has never lived with day-to-day real fear but are always eager to tell others what to do without understanding their situation. Pigs like you have made me want to leave this country since I was a child, and I have been working very hard to get the appropriate credentials for immigration since before Bush became president.

[AmerDem]

113. huh?

you asked,"are you proposing I commit a crime (illegal immigration)?", No, from your writing in this thread you are interested in leaving. How and where you came up with a line like that is beyond me.

BTW, just to put things in complete perspective, you wrote some nitwit accusations "I think you are probably white and affluent--someone who has never lived with day-to-day real fear but are always eager to tell others what to do without understanding their situation." Now, just so you know who the fuck it is you are really dealing with. I and my family were raised on public assistance after losing our father to a drunk driver many years ago. From the age of 10 I had to start working to bring money into the house. I juggled 2 paper routes, cut lawns, shoveled snow, worked in coal breakers after school and on weekends just to have food on our table and to have clothes to wear to school. I'm living comfortably now but far from affluent. I'm a tradesman and self taught in too many skills to name. I routinely help as many people as I can both financially and through my occupation just so they can get on their feet and have less worry holding them back from enjoying life as much as they can. I will continue to do this because not only do I feel and know it's the right thing to do but I often look back on my life and see how much better life was when someone helped my family.

Take a step back and rethink yourself before you assume and judge others. In this particular case you are completely clueless.

If you want or even consider leaving this country, do all of us who plan on staying a favor and just leave. America wasn't built over hundreds of years by the masses fleeing to an unknown land and winning our freedom. Endless life and blood was lost in the process. The life and blood of real Americans!

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

61. Partial list of "unreal" Americans by your shitty standard

Ernest Hemingway
James Baldwin
Josephine Baker
Benjamin Franklin
Samuel Fuller, WWII combat vet and director of "The Big Red One"

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

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[number6]

62. and I'll be back ....

and your welcome ;):hi: have a nice day eh !

[cire4]

63. Sigh....what a freeperish attitude

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

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[cire4]

89. Perhaps you and your fellow opinion-holders need to better inform yourselv

You seem to take the attitude that those who choose to leave the country after the election are giving up on the fight and giving up on America, which is complete BS. Just ask every ex-pat thats currently on DU.

I'll post what I posted earlier in the thread....


You can vote from aborad
You can register others to vote from abroad
You can write letters to congressmen/media outlets from abroad
You can phone bank from abroad
You can meet-ups abroad
You can stage protests from abroad
You can get access to the same information (many times even better) from abroad
You can convince other potential voters from abroad.
You can stage GOTV drives from abroad.

Ever heard of Democrats Abroad (www.democratsabroad.org ). Its an organization of Democrats who left the country, but who are still fighting for the Democratic cause. Everyday, there are people in the UK, France, Russia, Japan, Australia etc. that are working their collective asses off trying to get John Kerry elected. Are they cowards? Don't be spreading this information that leaving America means you are cowardly refusing to fight. We live in a modern, international global society where fighting from outside you country is perfectly possible(hell, the French showed it was possible in the 1940s).

Furthermore, leaving the country makes you better understand the strengths and weaknesses of America, which makes you more prepared to fight. It should be noted that leaving the country does not mean you are giving up on America. Many ex-pats eventually return to America after experiencing another culture. If everybody in America spent some part of their life in another country, then America would be a much much much more liberal and progressive place. This is something that should be encouraged and not deemed as a cowardly act.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

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[cire4]

97. I think you're missing my point

I am trying to show that in today's world, one can be a strong political fighter from abroad and that leaving the country does not mean you are leaving the fight. Like I said, there are American citizens from all over the world helping in the good fight to get John Kerry elected. There is nothing wrong with living in another country for a period of time. Many DUers have done it in the past, many are doing it right now, and may will do it in the future. It does not make them any less of an American for wanting to experience a new culture, new way of life, new people etc...Its what (among other factors) separates the liberal-progressives from the Freeper-types who seem to have an "America First and Who cares about the rest of the word" attitude. The fact that we are more worldly, multi-cultural, and globally aware is part of what makes our view of the world much more credible than their black and white view. And any American who wants to spend some time in another country should not be chastized for it, whether its due to the results of the election or isn't. Although, I GUARANTEE that anybody who does leave won't make their decision solely on the outcome of the Election. There will be other factors involved, mainly a curious desire to experience another country (something that this pResident sadly does not have nor did ever have).

You are envisioning some type of extreme, radical violent revolution/civil war type scenario where people will have to risk their lives to save America. It is extremely hard to debate such a vague hypothetical because there's too many unanswered questions. However, if you provide more details of such a scenario, I'd be willing to discuss it.

[AmerDem]

106. No, you're missing the point

It doesn't necessarily have to be civil war. Under your idea it can be something as benign as not agreeing with the political agenda of this current administration. Either way, you choose to take off running from the very country you say you will support. People who truly love this country wouldn't run off and fight in another land and shoot off their mouth from a safe distance. They would get in the face of the very people that are leading our country to the brink of disaster.

Just imagine if everyone took your point of view. Who the fuck would be here to takes things back? I think you live in profound delusion!

[cire4]

125. You're putting down all the current ex-pats working to get Kerry elected

Your logic suggests that those who have left America and are currently living in another country don't love nor don't care about America and therefore aren't "real Americans." This is a terribly misguided and dangerous view. You may argue that those who are currently living abroad didn't make their decision in response to the political climate, but in fact for other reasons not having to do with politics. There will be people who do the same thing after the election as well. They may find themselves offered with a unique opportunity, a job, a chance to study abroad, a chance to volunteer in another country, to teach English. They may have friends or family in another country who are offering a free place to stay. Or they may simply just want to experience living in a different country with different people for a period of time. Should these people be deemed as cowardly and unAmerican if they choose to do this?

My point in bringing this up is that nobody is going to leave solely due to fear of Bushco. And if you think that, you are kidding yourself. There are many other circumstances involved This isn't about fear. This isn't about finding some kind of safe haven from which to voice your opinions from. What leads someone abroad is going to go beyond just the election. People who are currently talking about leaving already have some innate desire to spend some time living in another country. If they didn't, then they would never say they were considering leaving.

What if everybody thought like me? What if everybody in America spent a year or two living in a foreign country? I'll tell you what would happen. We wouldn't have this pResident and America would be a much more progressive society.

[Name removed]

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[cire4]

128. Wow...I guess civil discussion is too much to expect

More proof that some Democrats know how to act like Republicans. Completely ignore the argument and focus on some trivial periphery

Ex-pat is a very common term. Its short for "expatriate," which refers to someone who has "taken up residence in a foreign country." Did you honestly not know that? Perhaps, you need to get out more.

[AmerDem]

130. no, more proof that we have antagonists

rather then purveyors of deep discussion!

[m berst]

99. shame

I am new here and I see that you signed up back in May. I promised myself I would stay away from controversy until people here got a chance to know me, but I feel that I must speak out.

I think that you should be ashamed of yourself talking to people the way that you are on this thread. I am afraid that you are correct when you say that you are "a lifelong Democrat" and that you "know more Democrats then not who express my same opinion" and that matches my own experience recently and it deeply saddens and disturbs me.

When mature adults are angry with their boss, they do not kick their dog. Nothing that the other members have said here is cause for the bristling hostility and inflammatory language in your posts.

The very essence of being a Democrat and a liberal is willingness to recognize that one is a member of a community, and that preserving and defending the community comes before selfish urges and childish emotions.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

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[txindy]

131. Well said. Very well said.

Welcome! :hi:

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

58. I'm leaving, don't care who wins.

Too many * supporters, too many cops and prison guards, too much military and surveillance technology. No one man (I mean Kerry) can halt the momentum. I've been working on my "exit strategy" since before the 2000 election. It's not as easy to emigrate as the "love it or leave it" crowd seems to think!

[bikebloke]

64. Tried twenty-some years back

The values of Europe took my fancy. And I certainly tried, but there wasn't a way to do it legally except marry someone. There were offers, but I wised away from those. Who knows, maybe I blew it. Later, I discovered New Zealand. Hard times there, too.

It's easy to say you're going to shift. But moving to other countries is not like moving to another state.

As far as staying to fight, hope we're not perceived as lone nutters. During the coup of 2000, the complaint I heard from sheeple was they were tired of their teevee shows being interrupted.

[Flammable Materials]

65. The only thing that has kept me from doing it these past 3 years ...

... is money.

[m berst]

66. hmmmm....

"Quitters... cowards...selfish...whining...wrong...get out of the way...turn tail... your choice is to run...you don't have courage and love for our country..."

My.

I have to question the sincerity of people who say that they are determined to stay and fight when they couple that with name-calling and derison. That suggests to me that they are trying to convince themselves and are not so tough as they wish to appear.

I also have to question the kind of society they are fighting for by staying when they attack people who are elderly or infirm for not having the "courage" or patriotism to stay and engage in street brawls. This is not very compassionate, and if we are not fighting for a more compassionate society, then I for one do not want to fight.

Many of the people who are considering leaving have been fighting for decades. I would grant them peace and safety in their last years, and I know that they can do much to support us from abroad - perhaps much more than they could do from a prison cell.

Others are concerned with saving their children and grandchildren. Most of us are here in the United States because our ancestors were motivated by that concern and immigrated to escape tyranny.

Others are trapped and will not be able to leave no matter how bad it gets.

Let's show compassion and understanding for each other.

"That would make the neo-cons so happy..."

Not necessarily. The exodus of talented people from Germany in the 30's crippled the country. Thank God the people with the brains to develop nuclear weapons for the Nazis ran. Sometimes refusing utterly to contribute and participate can be a very strong act of resistance, and more effective than rotting away in a concentration camp.

"It's surprisingly difficult to do that..."

No need to throw a wet blanket on people's dreams IMHO. It is as difficult as it is - no more no less - and the difficulties will be overcome as necessity arises, if history is to be relied upon as a guide.

[qs04]

67. I have for a few years now

But being an unskilled worker with no college degree I'm stuck here, even if moving overseas were something I could pull off financially and I have doubts it would be. Oh well, maybe some unknown relative will die and leave me a large inheritance and this will all change...

[alarimer]

68. Yes

I am always on the lookout for job opportunities anywhere, including overseas. In fisheries there are opportunities with international organizations like the UN, etc., especially if I decide to go for a PHD. But while I would like to get out if Bush is reelected I doubt it is possible for me to do so, unless somebody offers me a job that would mean living overseas. Personally I think Bush will lose and I think this is the last gasp for the right wing, given the demographic changes that are coming down the pike.

[robcon]

69. Never, ever

I love this country, and I will NEVER leave.

[Nashyra]

70. Yes, if dickhead wins

Costa Rica, at least I'll be in a country that admits they're corrupt, instead of lying and trying to be so righteous. I could not stand the fundamentalist mentality in this country any longer. I believe in God and have a spiritual connection that makes me feel "safe", but I also firmly believe in the separation of church and state, and these fundies are crossing the line, some of them are just as dangerous to democracy as some terrorist.

[China_cat]

72. Having the money for the tickets.

My husband is a Dutch citizen. His family all still live there. About the time we were seriously considering going back, he lost his job and was out of work for a year. Trying to live and take care of my medical condition took all our savings. Right now we are about $5 away from bankruptcy.

No, that's not true...we can't even afford to file bankruptcy.

If we had money for the tickets we'd take what we can carry and go.

[AlFrankenFan]

73. My conservative step-dad says if Bush wins, we're moving outta here

And I really think he's serious. He said Italy or France would be better than here during 4 more years of Dubya.

[951]

74. No

I can't afford it :(

[MsConduct]

75. Yes, I think about leaving on a daily basis....

Bush stealing the election again would motivate me to leave. I'd like to go to Canada, although Mexico would be cheaper.


Peace

[expatriate]

77. I left America in 1998, for entirely personal, not political reasons

Clinton was in office, things were good. Politics in no way motivated my move to Australia.

I've watched what has happened in America with horror. I feel that my lifetime of campaigning and fighting through Nixon, Reagan, Watergate, the Cold War, the Civil Rights Movement, the Women's Movement, is all for nothing, because the Bush administration and all it entails is something more evil and more pervasive than anything that has ever come before it - and a large portion of the American population is just sitting there, too apathetic or ignorant to even take notice.

I was just finishing high school when school curricula across America were dumbed down in the 1970's - where the best educational system on the planet was suddenly turned into a lot less, as the curriculum was suddenly made "relevant" and everyone had to feel good and happy all the time, whether they were learning anything or not. I have always felt that there was deliberate intent to this - after all, the largest and best eductated generation in America's history had just stood up during the 1960's and early 1970's and said "No! What you're doing is wrong, and we will not tolerate it!" Why? Because they had been taught to think for themselves, they questioned authority, and they were able to see for themselves that the Vietnam War was wrong, that the political pap they were being fed and expected to lap up like so many obedient dogs was wrong.

Corrupt and evil governments benefit when the population of the countries they head is compliant, ignorant and complacent. When I compare some of the people I saw working against the Vietnam War in the 1960's with some of the ill-educated, reality-TV watching, mall-walking "proud Amurkins" that I ran into on my last extended visit to the US in 2003, I despair. This is not to say that everyone in the 1960's was out there working for America's good, just as everyone living in America right now is a brain-dead zombie. In the 1960's, there were plenty of folks who didn't give a damn about anything more than what the next episode of Gunsmoke would be about - just as there are Americans now who are fighting with everything they have to return America to something saner, something closer to what America is supposed to be.

Tragically, though, the Marching Morons seem to be proliferating at an incredible rate in the USA. The fight against apathy and ignorance and media-controlled wholesale death of the mind is exhausting. I see the country where I was born turning into something that is hated and feared in the rest of the world. America could be loved and could do so much good in the world - instead, its present administration seems hell-bent on making it despised and dreaded. So many of its citizens seem to have no knowledge at all about their rights, the Constitution, the fact that the Supreme Court is not empowered to determine the outcome of Presidential elections - and they don't even seem to care or understand that their precious rights are being eroded daily. They treat their own diminishing privilege with the same lack of concern that they treat the news of what America is doing to people in Iraq. Let's turn on The Swan, and watch those ugly gals getting made pretty! Politics is boring, reality TV is where it's at.

Because America is so large, and so powerful, what happens in America affects the rest of the world. America has the ability to destroy the rest of the world, and itself. Once you are on the outside, looking in, and seeing some news coverage that is not biased and privately owned, the evil that is going on in America at this time is very obvious and very, very heartbreaking.

I'm still an American citizen. I have campaigned long and hard for Kerry from where I am. As mentioned in a previous post, it is entirely possible to work for good if you are an American citizen living abroad. You also have a pragamatism and an objectivity that Americans at home cannot have, because you have experienced another way of life, and you have had access to news sources that are not controlled by private interests.

I can well remember when "America - love it or leave it!" was the cry of staunch right wing conservatives - who also wanted you to cut off your hair, march in lockstep with them and if you were male, march off to Vietnam with a big Norman Rockwell grin on your face, glad to kill Vietnamese people for America. To see it being used by Democrats against Democrats over a difference of opinion, is apalling.

I am also an Australian citizen now. I took citizenship because I don't believe I should have all the privileges and benefits of living in a country without fulfilling the responsibilities that go along with them. I will also have more ability to remove my elderly mother from America if it is necessary to do so - should her health break down or if it becomes impossible for her to live alone any longer. Would the DUers here who vitriolically criticize those who consider leaving object to her leaving if things got bad enough? At seventy-one, she's supposed to suffer lack of medical care and somehow survive Northeastern winters without being able to pay for heating oil? She's been an American since 1933, never missed voting, obeys the laws, paid into Social Security since the 1950's, paid taxes, raised two kids to be responsible Americans - and now her Social Security and Medicare benefits are being cut, she can't afford medication and medical care, and it's very likely she will have to sell her home because she just can't afford to keep it going.

And not for one moment do I believe that the Bush administration gives a damn what happens to her and millions of people like her - people who have done what they were supposed to do, who love America, who supported, through their taxes and Social Security contributions, through fulfilling the responsibilities of an American citizen, the framework of the nation.

Is she supposed to linger there, suffering, should Bush get in again and things continue to descend into a maelstrom of fundamentalist insanity? She can't even get a flu shot, and she's one of the people who desperately needs one. I have a feeling that the flu shot situation is going to be the tip of the iceberg, should the Bush administration be returned on November 2.

It's just as jingoistic to tell people who consider leaving the US to get out as it was for McCarthy era conservatives to threaten anyone they considered to be "pinko". It's also just as damaging and pointless. There are myriad reasons for leaving the US, and for some people, it might simply be a matter of personal survival.

When I see cruel and jingoistic remarks like "get out then, if you feel that way" being bandied about by fellow Democrats, I know things have come to a tragic pass in America - when Americans who believe in freedom and human rights are so ready to denigrate other Americans over a difference of opinion. Being an American living in another country is a difficult situation, because America is so hated in the rest of the world - yet no Australian has ever spoken to me in the way that some of the posters have replied to their fellow Americans on this thread. Australians are noted for their belief in giving others a "fair go" - what a shame that people in the land that was built on the idea of individual freedom and the right to your own beliefs and opinions don't do the same.

Until you've walked a lifetime in my shoes, you cannot judge me.

[China_cat]

82. We had a corollary then

I can well remember when "America - love it or leave it!" was the cry of staunch right wing conservatives

America - change it or lose it.

Another of the Vietnam era things that needs to be revived.

[m berst]

87. thank you for the very moving...

.. and inspirational post expatriate. My GF and I are sitting here stunned and saddened, but also encouraged to read someone speaking so eloquently from their heart about our beloved country and how things have gone so terribly wrong. May I have your permission to post this elsewhere online?

Best wishes and I hope that your Mother does ok through the winter.

[expatriate]

88. Absolutely, feel free to use it.

I'm honored that you think it's worthy of passing on! And if it will help start the change ...

[Jose Diablo]

116. Actually, I don't think that those that leave failed the country

I think the country failed these people. It is sad when a large part of the people feel there is no hope of solving the problems this administration and those like this administration have caused.

The corrupting of the education system was but part of the problem. Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) came out against blind patriotism such as the forced recital of pledges to the country. The blind pledges were the beginning of the loss of our freedoms. Our subjegation began long before any of us were even born. It began when we forgot the corrupting influence that power has on people and blindly reciting slogans, jingles, pledging allegence without questioning. For if we had not become blind, Vietnam would never have had happened, nor would the support for a military concerned only for the wellbeing corporate interests. Nixon, nope. Reagan, nope. Bush, nope. All these things happen because most of the people are blind to the real nature of what has and is happening. Blind or indifferent.

We the people should never blindly follow anybody. We should follow what we believe is right after thinking it through and being informed of the truth of each matter.

I hope we are able to turn this country around so that you do not feel it is necessary to protect your mothers wellbeing by taking her to another country. I fear though, it will get much worst before it gets better. You are probably correct in that you should make plans to relocate your mother, for her protection.

[mondohondo]

81. Not me. but my children

I pretty much have to stay here but my wife and kids could go North, if necessary. Under Bush, my kids have bullseyes painted on their backs and I have to do what ever I can to save them.

[Trajan]

84. Not in a million years ....

I was born in North Jersey, bred on Roman Catholic guilt, italian pride, and a Brooklyn attitude ....

I'm not going ANYWHERE .....

I lost the guilt, and the pride drifted away, but the Brooklyn inside is taking a stand ....

This is MY home .....

Just TRY and move me ....

[maddezmom]

85. No Way, No How...just got back from living over seas

as bad as things can get, it's still the best country on earth!!

[smbolisnch]

92. Nope.......Not going anywhere! nt

[drumwolf]

93. No.

If I was a Freeper and I heard a liberal say, "If Bush is re-selected then I'm leaving this country," my answer would be, "Good! Please! Do it! And don't let the door hit you on the ass!"

All of the wingnuts who support Bush would LOVE for us liberals to leave this country. Don't give them the pleasure, and don't cede this wonderful country to the right-wing scumbags. It's our moral imperative to fight and take our country back, and this will only be even more true if Bush gets a second term.

[m berst]

94. maybe, maybe not...

...but who cares what they think?

I am reading Last Train from Berlin by Howard K. Smith (1942 Knopf) about the last days in Nazi Germany for American journalists. Smith made it out, but many were not so fortunate. Did the Nazis want these liberal Americans to leave or to stay? They wanted them to stay. Did the liberals take into account whether or not the Nazis wanted them to stay or leave? No. They looked at the situation in terms of reality, not in terms of making some foolish stand or worrying about what psychotic people did or didn't want them to do.

Smith realized, as did everyone in the opposition eventually, that it was not possible to fight against the Nazis from within Germany. Those who left returned, after having brought down the totalitarian regime working against it from outside of Germany.

With a Bush win, would freepers want liberals to leave? Do hunters want the deer to leave during hunting season? Would it be smart for the deer to stay so that they could show the hunters that they weren't intimidated by them?

Fascism, which is what we are up against IMHO, requires victims to abuse in order to survive, just as the hunter requires deer to kill for his sport to exist. The deer are not so stupid as to think that because the hunter shoots at them that he wants them gone, and so therefore spite him and refuse to leave when they are being shot at. The hunter's goal is not to rid the world of deer, and the fascists' goal is not to rid the country of liberals.

[Technowitch]

100. Concentration camps, that's what.

And don't think they haven't been proposed, either. Because they have -- in the event of a 2nd terrorist attack.

I am a left-wing woman in a same-sex marriage with another woman who was active in the draft resistance movement during the 60s. We are outspoken.

Frankly, if Shrub and Company steal another election, we're going to price land in British Columbia. We don't see this as cowardly or anything -- merely prudent, because we are among the people Ashcroft and his minions would be rounding up for... 'reeducation'.

[Dude_CalmDown]

101. Amsterdam - as soon as I can afford it.

I'm not too fond of our country's attitude towards our personal freedoms. Why the fuck do I need to be worried about a random test and loosing my job as a result of it? Why does it matter what the fuck I do when I am not at work? Name one Senator or Congressman who can even mention personal freedoms and expect to get elected.

There are so many things about this country that I just cannot stand anymore and I don’t see a major change coming anytime soon. We would need 2 groups to start doing their jobs before we can even begin to change in the right direction and both the media and our Dem leaders have bent over. I can’t wait to get out of here.

[Nimrod]

103. "Quitters..."

Wow.

2004-
Nimrod: Have you ever thought about leaving the country?

DU: "Quitters... cowards...selfish...whining...wrong...get out of the way...turn tail... your choice is to run...you don't have courage and love for our country..."

2001-
Nimrod: The war in Iraq is a bad idea.

Freepers: "Quitters... cowards...selfish...whining...wrong...get out of the way...turn tail... your choice is to run...you don't have courage and love for our country..."


As a certain fellow used to say - "Veddy eeenteresting".

[MacDo]

107. Nope

Just got back after 17 years overseas. Staying this time

[w4rma]

110. No. (nt)

[Bridget Burke]

111. I'm at that awkward age...

Too young to retire, too old to start over.

Serious money and/or highly marketable professional skills are really required for emigration. "Grabbing a suitcase" is not sufficient preparation. If you've got family connections, cool.

And, for those who say they'd "keep fighting" overseas--it might be better to become involved in the country of your residence. Although sitting at the cafe with the other "exiles", full of nostalgia for the "Old Country" does have a certain romantic appeal. Again, for those who can afford it!

[expatriate]

132. It is possible

to be involved with a new country of residence while maintaining a love and concern for the situation in your native country - particularly when that country is the USA, which is a massive superpower. The US affects the entire world, simply because of its wealth and military power.

If, like me, you live in another country, but have family still residing in the US, your concern is even greater. Personally, I am involved with my new country of residence. I'm a citizen, I vote in the elections, I take great interest in Australian politics and in being an informed voter. I'm also still an American citizen and fulfill my obligations as an American citizen.

I've yet to sit around a cafe with any "exiles", expressing nostalgia for the "Old Country", and I haven't seen any other Americans living in Australia (or for that matter, people of any other nationality) doing that either.

Your statement that you must have "serious money" or "highly marketable professional skills" to emigrate is not correct. Emigration laws vary from country to country, and there are countries that desperately need emigrants. People emigrate to Australia all the time who are not professionals. Australia has had to tighten emigration laws because in the past it was literally possible to come into the country, immediately get resident status while you were still at the airport, and then walk down to the nearest unemployment office and get on the dole. This created a huge burden on the system, and had to be stopped.

But that doesn't make it impossible to emigrate here, and it is easier to emigrate to other countries. You do have to jump through some hoops to emigrate anywhere, but you do not necessarily have to be rich or a professional to do so.

If I have ever had serious money or have ever been a highly marketable professional, I'll eat my hat.

[Cat Atomic]

114. Why should *I* leave?

It's the fascists that hate this place. *They* can leave. I like Europe as much as the next guy, but this is my home.

Besides- all this makes me think of the Cuban "exiles" in Florida. Whenever I hear those people bitching about Castro, I think, "you had the chance to fight him but you chose to save your ass instead". It's not exactly endearing.

[Jose Diablo]

115. No

I was born here and will be buried here. I'm staying and fighting, if fighting will be needed.

[goodhue]

117. yes

I have family abroad so there are some options.
I am waiting until Nov 3 before any serious planning.

[libertad]

118. I would if I could afford to leave.

[anonzilla]

119. ya ask me in 1 week..

i agree with alot of the posts, it all depends on the results come nov. :)

[Celeborn Skywalker]

120. Never

As much as I'm disgusted by what's going on now, I could never surrender my country to the freepers and fundies.

[MsTryska]

123. Yes. I'm thinking Australia or Canada.

not sure which jsut yet, or if i'll ever be able to scrape up enough money to do it.

[dancing kali]

124. I did.

While it wasn't the driving reason for moving up here, it was something that I seriously considered when making my part of the decision of where we were going to settle. This was back when Teflon Ray-gun was in office. Would I consider moving back? Under the current administration... NO! In kinder political (domestic and global) times... maybe.

[Ahriman]

126. No way. I'm gonna stay and fight the power.

[ibegurpard]

129. It's an easy option for me

by virtue of the fact that I was born in Canada. Anyone else who talks about it like it's just a lark is seriously underestimating the bureaucratic hoops they'd have to jump through if they wanted to do it legally. And illegally? How do they plan to STAY where they're going? Apply for amnesty? What is the likelihood of that happening?

As for Canada, which is where I could go without any problems, it's not far enough. Think Austria in the 30's.