I'm not a fan of Eminem - could care less who he votes for.

[secular_warrior]

Can't stand folks like Eminem, and others like Howard Stern, who are basically right wingers who like to party, and who are smart enough to know that most "kids" are liberal, so they occasionally toss a scrap leftwards. Give Eminem twenty years or so, he'll be Ted Nugent.

Eminem is a tool of a corporate establishment which saw the profitability of a white boy singing the "urban" (black) music. Eminem is a product designed to be sold to the suburban elite, like everything else the corporations produce.

Of course the "kids" love "Em" because he is at the top of their social class (an "idol") and few of us (of any age) can avoid being fascinated by those above us on our specific social ladder - regardless of how despicable the idol may be. There will always be an effort to rationalize and make excuses for the idol, in spite of what the truth is.

[jadedcherub]

1. oh oh.

[Threedifferentones]

77. You're right record companies would certainly use a

protest song to make a quick buck, but the lyrics to this one just seem too powerful to be for money alone.


3DO

[rockydem]

2. you're wrong

[phrenzy]

3. Good for you.

We heard you the first time in the other thread. That's great that you don't like him and think he is a phony / culture stealer - bla bla bla - So don't buy his music.

I feel confident that I know a good artist when I see one - And I definitely know a good protest song when I hear one. MOSH is one of those.

[ghostsofgiants]

4. I'll agree about Mosh being a great protest song.

I hate Eminem as much as anyone, but god damn, what a song.

[chookie]

25. Another former non-fan of Eminem here

Damn -- "Mosh" is powerful art.

I'm getting me a black hoodie.

[Melodybe]

5. You have no idea what you are talking about

I'm sorry you don't get it.

[Randi_Listener]

6. It's coming.

You realizing how misguided and ridiculous you sound.

[AnnitaR]

7. Umm, yea thanks for starting a NEW thread...

we got your point over in the other thread.

:eyes:

[kokomo]

8. I'm 65 years old and I liked Eminem's Mosh

I'm a classically trained pipe organist at that, but I appreciate his rhythm and his poetry. Living through the turbulent 60's, early 70's, I miss the many protest songs of that era. We need more such music for our current national crisis.

[Iris]

52. rhythm and poetry is right on. There are articles out there

pointing out how close a lot of his rhythms are to Shakespearean verse.

So, hate him if you want, but the boy still has talent.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

9. did you watch the video?

he could very easily have "tossed a scrap leftwards," as you say, without including elements in his video that accuse the Bush admin. of MIHOP.

I think Eminem is a sexist, homophobic jerk, but I don't think he's bullshitting his politics in this.

[MirrorAshes]

10. A fatal flaw in your argument-

"Eminem is a tool of a corporate establishment which saw the profitability of a white boy singing the "urban" (black) music. Eminem is a product designed to be sold to the suburban elite, like everything else the corporations produce."

It is true, yes, that many of today's acts are products of the recording industry and are merely puppets propogated to make money. Ashlee Simpson, now infamous for her lip synching mishap on SNL this weekend is a perfect example.

But, Eminem is something different.

If you really had any grasp of the hip-hop world you would know that Eminem put in his time and worked his way up. He was eventually signed, and turned into a phenomenon, but it was not handed to him on a silver platter. He earned it.

Your argument would be 100% correct if directed at practically any of the modern pop sensations, but it is clear that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the circumstances surrounding his rise to fame.

[Melodybe]

13. Thank you, I respect the hell out of Eminem

The homophobia stuff is not meant as a slam on gay people.

Eminem is something very special

[Kipepeo]

28. homophobia not meant as a slam on gay people?

what? Is his sexism not meant as a slam on women?

That being said, I've always thought he was really talented and I love the new Mosh song. It's true art because it's talent with a message.

[notadmblnd]

90. you are absolutely right Melodybe

I'm 45 and not really a fan of hip-hop. I listen to his lyrics and I hear a lot of anger. I think some people dislike him because he kinda rubs the truth in our faces. He's a shove it down your throat kinda guy. Too many people don't see the misery of children who grow up with young single moms. I know people who grew up like him, I know their anger. I appreciate that Eminem has chosen to express his anger through his music. I think it helps him to work through it.

He is special, he is a survivor. I think he recognises some of the unwise choices he has made in his young life and is trying to become a better person. His latest release, Mosh shows me that he is growing and maturing.

[demobabe]

17. britney spears...

...busted her ass as a disney musketeer and reaching her dream, but that doesn't make her a social phenomenom that speaks for a generation.

i think secular warrior's right on - eminem IS a tool of the corporate establishment regardless of how "hard" he worked to get where he is, record labels don't bother promoting artists unless they turn X percent profit - period.

looking at eminem's erratic history, he's just a "dumb kid" like many other "dumb kids" his age - when you're young, you're inexperienced - you can't hold that against him. hopefully he'll continue to evolve...

but like i said in another thread, if eminem motivates people to vote who wouldn't have voted otherwise, i'm all for it...

but if you're thinking this is the pinnacle of music or political protest music of our time, i really suggest you start listening to more music - old and new.

[Melodybe]

19. I listen to everything From Arvo Part to Tom Waits to Louie Arsmstrong

to Pfunk to the beatles to Johnny Cash to Woody Gutherie to NoFX to Tool to Altan

I think that Eminem is brilliant, I think you are missing out but you are intitled to your opinion.

To me this song is the Anthem I was waiting for.

[abburdlen]

64. Now that's a playlist!

[MirrorAshes]

24. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Its easy to hate Eminem, I know. He's made alot of mistakes. But you are just simply incorrect in your assessment of his rise to fame. Have you ever even heard of a "rap battle"? Do you understand the underground rap culture? I don't think you do, because you would not so quickly dismiss Eminem if you did.

As for myself, please don't make such presumptions. I am a DJ and a musical connoisseur, Eminem is one very tiny part of my listening habbits. I am quite well versed in good music, old and new. If you'd ever care to hear about my musical tastes, I'd be more than happy to outline them for you.

Seriously though--thats one of the most presumptuous things anyone's ever said to me, and couldn't be farther from the truth.

[secular_warrior]

20. Eminem is no different to Britney or the Back Street Boys.

It's ok to for consumers to like Eminem's music, but to say he's anything revolutionary or represents the left is complete and utter bullshit.

Eminem is a self serving, bullying, misogynistic, homophobic tool of the corporations. He is simply concerned with how many units he can push and how much money he can make for himself and his corporate masters. It's cool to be against Bush now, so he's against Bush.

There are other artists out there who are truly genuine about their liberal beliefs, like the guys from System of a Down, for example who were banned after 9-11 from many radio stations, or Eddie Vedder of Pearl Jam who has taken a strong stand against the corporate entertainment industrial complex, or Chuck D - former leader of rap group Public Enemy and politcal commentator, or even befor he killed himself - Kurt Cobain of Nirvana who spoke out passionately against right wing/corporate influences in popular culture before anyone during the Reagan/Bush era dared to.

Eminem and "artists" like him are no friends of the left. The hypocrisy of some "liberals" who defend people like him is amazing. No wonder we are where we are, on the edges of power most of the time. There needs to be some sort of revolution of the left to flush out the trendy faux liberals who control our culture and the Democratic Party.

[MirrorAshes]

27. You are partially correct....

And I did not say he was anything revolutionary, though this song and video certainly are. I *CERTAINLY* did not say he represents the left, but this video is something we could all certainly support, if we actually watched it and let go of our bias for a second.

Eminem may indeed be a "self serving, bullying, mysogynistic homophobe." Actually, thats a pretty good summary of his biggest flaws. But again, you are sorely mistaken when you say he is merely a tool of the corporations.

You talk about how its "cool" to be against something, and clearly that is the basis for your stance against Eminem, because as I said earlier, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of where he is coming from. You havn't said one single thing to suggest you know anything about the guy beyond your simple and reactionary response to the stereotype you seem to percieve him as.

You can call me a hypocrite if you'd like, but you are simply ignorant to the situation. Your outrage is severely misplaced, and I suggest to you that perhaps the reason "we are where we are" is that some liberals can't see a good thing when it lands in their lap.

If you want to flush out people like Eminem, you can kiss the support of the hip-hop world goodbye, and that would be a terrible mistake.

Please, learn a little more about what you speak of before you step onto your pedestal.

[otohara]

66. He's Helped Launch Other Talents

Can't say that about Britney or The BS Boys, can you?

Does Britney write her own stuff, has she produced a record or two, weren't the Back Street Boys manufactured, did they ever write one of their tunes?


Lighten up!

[rockydem]

88. you just showed you have NO MUSICAL TASTE

to say he's no different than Spears or the BSB is just hilarious...

[bacchant]

50. I'm glad he made the video. I'm glad anytime an artist bags Bush, BUT

this is still America and we still have the right to like OR DISLIKE Eminem as an artist, or as a person. Overzealous, idol worshiping, conformists can kiss my ass.

[MirrorAshes]

67. You're welcome to that opinion, but...

please don't assume that someone defending him is succumbing to idol worship or conformity.

[bacchant]

68. I dig.

Peace.

[OneBlueSky]

11. I generally hate rap and hip hop, but . . .

I've come to appreciate Eminem . . . he's a talented poet with impeccable timing, and I can actually listen to a lot of his stuff . . . may even buy a CD or two at some point . . . haven't heard his latest yet, but am looking forward to it . . .

[Melodybe]

12. Watch the video, it will change yourlife

http://gnn.tv/videos/viewer.php?id=27&spd=lo

Wow, just wow

[Gothic Sponge]

15. Okay, i'll admit i'm not a fan, but that was good.

Are they playing this on MTV? My guess is no.

[nostamj]

34. you guessed wrong. MTV did the world TV debut

of MOST on TRL today...

no fan, but it was impressive.

[The Minus World]

14. Negatory

I assume you lump Stern in with Eminem because both of them are known for their shocking public behaviour and appeal to younger audiences. If your argument is that these men are only latching onto public dissent as a trend and following their own self-interested agendas, I believe you are terribly mistaken.

You may not agree with the messenger, but the message is loud and clear for anyone that cares to listen. Both Stern and Eminem want Bush out of office, and they're using their artistic talents (that can be disputed) to further said agenda. So what's the damage?

[Hello_Kitty]

16. I disagree about Stern

Most of his listeners are uber-White Males, not liberal kids at all. He's not my cup of tea to listen to but I respect his politics and am glad he's helping to counteract the freep propaganda to his audience.

[Tony_Illinois]

18. Fan or not--the message in the video is helpful to Kerry

[LosinIt]

21. I felt the same way until I actually LISTENED to his music

and yes, I must admit it is music. The man is brilliant. His lyrics are fantastic and his timing is impeccable. Open up your mind. What he says in his songs now is not what he said on his first albums, you would be surprised.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

22. I never liked anything else Eminem has done...

...but I did like Mosh.

[cubsfan forever]

79. My sentiments exactly! n/t

Professor 2

[m berst]

23. agreed, secular_warrior

Very well stated.

I am a musician and a performer - not pop and I don't pay too much attention to pop and haven't since the 60's. The business and politics of the music industry however I do follow closely, and when you mentioned Eddie Vedder of Pearl Jam you mentioned a hero of mine. I couldn't tell you if I have ever heard any of their music, strangely enough, but I followed Pearl Jam's fight against the industry. Nothing against popular music, by the way, rather a matter of so much music in my life already that that there isn't much time for pop. Besides, there is no way to avoid pop so one gets dosed with more than is wanted involuntarily.

I suppose that most modern people don't realize what a narrow cross section of music they are hearing - all popular music is a tiny and very recent fragment of our (human's) music, and only a tiny fragment of that gets any exposure at all, and only a tiny fragment of that gets significant exposure. But, the public is happy and is willing to spend a fortune on whatever the sharks in suits decide to feed them.

This subject is so complex and people are so resistant to discussing it that I never know how to start. The industry chews up and destroys artists. That says it all, but can anyone hear that? It makes the sports mills look benign by comparison. I wish there were a way to reach music lovers with the truth about what the industry is doing to artists, but if there is I sure haven't found it.

Most of what the average fan knows about an artist is pap generated very slick pr people, and this pr is intentionally designed to create a very fierce loyalty and identification with the artist from the fans. The promotional, packaging and marketing techniques have been so perfected and are now so effective, that people will vehemently defend complete strangers - artificially created pop icons - more quickly than they will defend their own friends and family. I am old enough to remember when this did not happen except with extremely lonely and odd people - I can remember meeting one person in the 60's who had this hero worship for celebrities. Even with Sinatra, Elvis, the Beatles, and in my hometown, Barry Gordy's young Motown artists - although people did get goofy at concerts, no one imagined that being a fan was anything but silly fun.

People are fans of this particular artist, but there is something else at play here. It is almost as though he were a family member or close friend the way that people defend him. Of course, all we know is a carefully managed public persona, and nothing of the person. I am certain of this from having known hundreds of musicians on and off stage. The fans are fooled into thinking they know the person rather than the stage act, but they don't.

Fans will always fall back on "yes but I like it" and make it all a matter of supposed personal taste. Personal taste is for ice cream flavors IMHO. Music is communication on a spiritual level and is vital to the health of the community, and requires something of a listener. Can it possibly be a coincidence that as music programs are cut back in public schools and children are not exposed to a wide range of music that they grow up with "personal tastes" that just happen to be in alignment with what they have been exposed to - junky trash?

As communication, as opposed to flavors of ice cream, music is influenced by the intention of the artist, and the context and discipline and artistic community within which the artist works. An anology - were one unable to read, one's personal taste might run to picture books. Were one then learn to read, other types of books would perhaps become more interesting and meaningful. This isn't a head versus heart dichotomy I am talking about. Reading can engage the heart as much as - I would say more than - looking at a picture book can.

This issue is intensely political, because historically when the ruling class controls the people's music, they control the people, and musicians are always the first ones that the tyrants go after, even before the writers and activists. A people's music is so central to their identity, and when music has been prostituted and debased the way that pop music has, the people are prostituted and debased.

Examples of this from history include the suppression of Irish music by the English, the elimination of the national instrument of Ukraine by Stalin in the 30's, the outright theft of music from the Rom people in Europe by classical "composers" of the upper class for 200 years, and the Greek colonels suppression of composers during their reign in the 70's.

In America, the destruction of jazz and blues is the same sad story of exploitation and suppression of artists.

Well, it is a big subject near and dear to my heart, and you can more safely tear down the great thinkers of the Enlightenment and the founders of our country than you can express even a hint of criticism regarding pop icons, so I should probably go to my room now.

Thanks secular_warrior for having the courage to take on this - and for having the courage to question the most suppressive and destructive kool aid drinking of all - American pop culture.

[hiphopnation]

33. Magnificent post, sir.

This is also a topic that is near and dear to my heart as well. I am also a musician. Very profound stuff here. Thanks again. :thumbsup:

[Medium Baby Jesus]

49. Boring pap n/t

[m berst]

86. right! exactly!

That demonstrates what I am saying. Of course it is boring! Boredom is in the mind of the bored. The power is in your hands, it's your life and your freedom. Take it back. Don't wait for some stranger to un-bore you.

[secular_warrior]

63. America pop culture: the creation of faux liberals and corporatists.

There are way too many trendy faux liberals who are nothing but corporatists who like to feel oh so smart, special and socially conscious. They like to have their dose of corporatism, racism, sexism, homophobia - as long as it is sugar coated so they can feel better about themselves. Hence all the rationalizations.

Honestly, I'd take a moderate who is really a moderate any day over these faux libs.

After Kerry is elected, we need change on the left, to get rid of these faux liberals who are alienating many of the people the Democratic Party is really supposed to be standing up and fighting for, i.e the poor, the oppressed, the discriminated -- society's underdogs -- not society's pampered suburban elite.

[MirrorAshes]

72. Yes, brilliant plan. Ostrasize the future of the democratic party.

Whether you understand it or not, the hip-hop community will be champions for the democratic party unless we give them a reason not to be.

[MirrorAshes]

71. Again...valid sentiment, but misplaced here.

Your analysis is quite brilliant, yet you have fallen into the same trap that secular_warrior has of assuming Eminem is something he isn't. Sorry, but its the truth.

[slutticus]

26. I bet you can't even name a single song Eminem has put out...

...without looking it up.

There is no way in hell Eminem would have made a video like "Mosh" if he was a tool of the corporate elite.

Gimme a break.

And you call that video a "scrap"? Jesus Christ...have you even seen it????

[hiphopnation]

29. Agreed.

Just so everyone doesn't jump my case I'll let it be known that I haven't seen the whole Mosh video yet. I saw about the first third but it was moving to slow and I was at work.

That aside, I think you're description of him is just about dead-on accurate. While I really do like a lot of his music I could never really get "down" with his take on things. It's difficult to put my finger on. For some reason I question his authenticity but I don't know why I should. I have no real-world reasons for doing so - only my instincts. You sum it up wonderfully when you say you could see him as a Ted Nugent waiting to happen. Exactly!

All that said, however, I do think he's done some wonderful things with hiphop music, if you can call it that. I'm not so sure you can. It' begs the question, "what is authentic" hiphop and should one be critized or lauded for going outside the boundry of said authenticicty. I happen to find his music more "poppy" than "rappy". (I can make up words all day!) By all accounts he has been lauded and not only by rich, suburban white kids. Shit, Dr. Dre discovered him and made him what he is and a slew of established hiphop artists flipped out over him. To some degree the hub-ub was his whiteness but he also was one hell of a rapper and his words, at least in the beginning, were venemous and stinging. But a career based on shock, by definition, cannot last too long. I'm sure Mosh is a great song but just about everything he's put out in the last year has stunk to high heavan, IMHO.

Also something really bothered me about the D-12 thing. It's as though he brought in these black rappers to validate his place in the hiphop world. Again, no evidence to back up this claim, just the feeling I get from listening to the tunes and watching the videos which seem to be dominated by HIM! I don't get the feeling he was trying to prop up any of these guys as serious rappers more trying to give his own career a boost. And with his enormous name recognition and sway in the industry who does he "discover" and pull from the underground to the glaring, white-hot spotlight? 50 Cent A blatantly homophobic, gangsta rapper of the worst ilk made famous by his debut album "Get Rich Or Die Tryin'". And the fans ate it up! To me I saw Em taking hiphop back a decade or two. Gangsta rap?? Really?? In twenty years rappers in the "underground" don't have anything more profound or fresh to offer to the mix? This is it? According to Em, yes it was.

Again, all of this is very personal, biased critique of him but I think you hit on something with this thread. Is "Mosh" the new "Blowin in the Wind"? Perhaps. But is Em the new Bob Dylan. Not even close. My $0.02

[mark414]

36. re: D-12

d-12 was em's group from way back when in detroit

when dre heard em doing solo stuff he signed em

when em made it big, he brought up his d-12 buddies with him, just like 2pac brought his friends with him, biggie brought his friends with him, etc. etc. etc.

[hiphopnation]

38. exactly my point

I didn't get the feeling from the album that was released that it was a hiphop "group" that was on display. Sounded more to me like Eminmen and "some other black guys". But hey, that's my opinion.

[Uzybone]

57. How is that your point???/

your false point was that he was using the "black guys" to prop himself up. Its the total opposite. Eminem became big and he gave his boys some of the spotlight.

[Walt Starr]

30. Thanks, I'll go buy his CD now

You've convinced me I should support his efforts by buying his music.

[mark414]

31. wow, you are wrong on so many levels

first, re: howard stern, he WAS a right-winger until this whole war thing. that woke him up and now he hates bush. i've never listened to howard stern so i can't make comments on his work.

but you are so, so, so wrong about eminem.

first, he was not brought to this world by the corporate establishment. dr. dre, who, if you know anything about him in the slightest, is definitely about as far from the establishment as you can get, heard em on a mixtape, liked him and set up a meeting. dr. dre, running his own label that he has control over, signed eminem and helped him release his first album.

you see profitability, which he is. it's easier for white kids to identify with someone who looks like them. but dre saw talent, and hard work. and definitely unlike the likes of the teen pop insta-hits, em worked his ass off, as has pretty much every rapper ever, to get where he is.

the only rapper that your bullshit generalizations apply to would be vanilla ice. he definitely fits into your white=profit rationalization.

it's easy to talk shit about something you completely misunderstand, and you show little desire to ever even comprehend the hip hop universe, which is a perfect example of your ignorance of said universe.

with all due respect, go fuck yourself.

[hiphopnation]

35. wrong

first, he was not brought to this world by the corporate establishment. dr. dre, who, if you know anything about him in the slightest, is definitely about as far from the establishment as you can get

Ummm you obviously don't know what you're talking about. At that point Dre was about as corporate as a hiphop artist could be.

[mark414]

39. hmm

i know a whole lot of hell what i'm talking about

i don't deny that dre is a corporate rapper as far as that goes, but he is definitely NOT the establishment, that can't be disputed

[hiphopnation]

43. Actually

it can and will be. Dre was very much an "establishment" with a label to boot when he discovered Eminem. "Chronic" about solidified his place in the hiphop Juggernaut (here's a hint, you know he's establishment when the suburban white kids are buyin up the albums like crazy!) and his subsequent discovery Snoop Dogg.

But what's the point of arguing all that, hmm? Em is a hack. He had a good ride but how many more times can he shock his way back into the spotlight? Not many. Eventually he'll have to make some good music again. I wonder if he's got it in him?

[Blackrain]

51. 70% of all rap music is bought by white suburban kids

I don't know where you get your facts from. I have plenty of white friends who live in the subburbs who were buying rap music years before Eminem showed up.

[Uzybone]

59. Great point

by that measure (suburban kids buy my records) then all top selling rappers are establishment, including Outkast.

[abburdlen]

65. I wouldn't have considered

Public Enemy as "Establishment" in the late 80's but hey I was living in the suburbs then so I guess they were just corparate tools too. :eyes:

There can be a difference between made and marketed for the masses and stuff enjoyed by the masses

[mark414]

75. there's a difference

between an established, hip hop juggernaut and THE establishment

THE establishment is a bunch of rich white guys in suits sitting in smoke filled rooms

dre is definitely not a part of that, nor will he ever be

that's all i'm saying

and you're right, em's had his moments, some of his best singles were around before he even broke (like his track on soundbombin II, DAMN)

i thought marshall mathers LP was a perfect album, but the other two most of the tracks are hit or miss

his first single from this new album blew goats

[DrWeird]

32. Wow, you really sound like you know what you're talking about.

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

37. People just don't get him

It's like all those people on the right who thought Bruce Springsteen was one of them, and are shocked that he's not. In reverse. Eminem always rapped about what he saw, straight up, no bullshit. Left it hanging out there for people to think about. Until now.

[neebob]

40. It's way more than a scrap

It's pull-no-punches, get-in-the-most-possible-trouble, brave-ass, totally-change-your-opinion-of-Eminem inspiring.

[Blackrain]

41. Your view of Eminem is Racist

First off, your thread makes me sick to my stomach. Instead of judging Eminem on his talent you're judging him by his skin color. So what If Eminem is white and decides to make a living by making hip-hop music. The fact of the matter is Eminem is arguably the best rapper to ever live. Dr Dre doesn't sign a person just to make money off of them. He judges the rapper soley on his talent, Just like he did Ice-Cube,Snoop Dog, Eazy E.

The most respected rappers in the industry view Eminem as the best lyricist period. 50cent does, Jay-Z, & Dr Dre Does. Eminem has endured years of racism being a white rapper in Detroit. Instead of giving up he kept trying, despite the fact he was discriminated against. Here's a classic line from Eminem that co-insides with what I'm saying.

"Some people only see me as White ignoring skill/
Cause I stand out like a Green hat with and orange bill/

But I don't get pissed, cause ya ll can't see through the mist
How the fuck can I be white, I don't even exist!

[hiphopnation]

44. ...

Dr Dre doesn't sign a person just to make money off of them. He judges the rapper soley on his talent, Just like he did Ice-Cube,Snoop Dog, Eazy E. <---- and you know this, of course, because you and Dre are best friends, hmmm?


The fact of the matter is Eminem is arguably the best rapper to ever live. Huh??

[Blackrain]

46. This is coming from and African American MC

---- and you know this, of course, because you and Dre are best friends, hmmm?

I know this because I'm a student of the rap game, 106 KMEL battle rap champion, and have been on numerous Bay Area Rap CD's. So I'm lyrically inclined enough to know Genius when I see it.

Every rapper that Dr Dre has signed has changed the rap industry in one way or another. He's the father of Gansta rap, a musical genre that's changed music forever. When West coast rap music was at and all time low then Dr.Dre releases the Chronic, and introduces international superstar Snoop Dog. Dre once again changed the rap game and fathered the rebirth of G-Funk and West coast rap.

Then Dr Dre finds out about a lyrical phenomenon, who was named the Free-styler of year by the Wake up shows Sway and Tech. Once Dre heard this phenomenon, couple with the fact that he finished 2nd in the Rap Olympics, he should of won first, but in this case his skin color was used against him. Because the guy who took first in the Rap Olympics that year has done nothing since hmmm.

So once Dre singed Eminem, Dre changed the rap industry once again. By introducing and artist who took hip to a new level, by selling 27 million records world wide. So that's why I say that Dre signs people on talent, because based on his past successes, it's evident that he only signs artists who can revolutionize the industry. Eminem has smoked everyone and anyone who's ever tried to battle him. Although there's one exception (Canibus) but that's the only rapper living who can go toe to toe lyrically with Eminem.

[mark414]

80. YO blackrain

you said you're from the bay area...

do you know peanut butter wolf at all? he's from san jose i think...or did you know charizma?

or are you more down with the oakland area?

[sallydallas124]

118. thank you

Obviously few are familiar with Eminem's battling abilities. It seems he's one of the few who can be successful in the underground and pop worlds at the same time. I think this is largely due to his abilities. Also, he comes off as an alright guy - it's pretty apparent if you listen to the old Wake Up Show. To say he's a corporate tool is to reveal one's ignorance about Eminem & especially underground hip hop. The person who started this thread sounds like he's from the Source.

[Robbie67]

42. Is Elton John a homophobe apologist?

I can't imagine that Elton John would appear with Eminem if he truly thought Eminem was a homophobe.

[rockydem]

45. How many voters for Kerry have you signed up?

Howard Stern bashes * and talks up Kerry on his show - he directs them to his website, that is filled with articles that outline the truth about *.

For several weeks there before you could visit the homepage you were confonted with the call to register, right on his site, with a personal message from Howard Stern to vote for Kerry.

As a conservative estimate I would say that Stern is responsible for registering at least a couple hundred thousand new Kerry voters.

Yeah - he's real right wing - a real phony!

And Eminem is a true talent - a lyrical genuis - and is embraced by real musicians who can judge someone on a level that isn't PC, and is true...

[AlFrankenFan]

47. Eminem hates woman, degrades us

I could give less than two shits that he is against Bush. It doesn't make up for the fact that he's such a horrible person with basically no morals whatsoever.

[Catt03]

53. I agree... misogynist and one angry adult kid

and....I don't think we need another thread on this guy. OK...you like his music. Got the message...can we move on now?

[secular_warrior]

61. White liberal hypocrisy

The type of people who think "Em" is cool are the same people who buy those expensive, Starbuck's lattes and drive around in their expensive, trendy Volkswagens thinking they're sooooo socially conscious and special. Being "liberal" is all a trend for them - until they get out of college and go to their corporate jobs and become Republicans just like mommy and daddy.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

62. wow, you have got everyone figured out don't you?

all different types of people have respect for Eminem and his music. I don't understand why you think you can make these all knowig declarations about who likes Eminem? As you can plainly see throughout all these posts there are fans of all types.

most people who have a knowledgeable opinion about hip-hop believe that Eminem is at the top of the game.

[abburdlen]

69. So what do you call

"Big Tent Democrats" that discount people motives because of the color of their skin, how much they make, where they're from or what they drive for godsakes?

[friesianrider]

48. Who gives a fuck?

"Can't stand folks like Eminem..."

Well good for you - what do you want, a cookie?

And "folks"? Why do I have no doubt that you know NOTHING about Eminem other than what you've "heard"? :eyes: Seriously though, who honestly gives a shit? I care about winning this election, not who in the rap world is cooler than who else.

Please. Let's get back to real topics by people talking about stuff they actually know something about.

[FellowAmerican]

54. I can't stand him either

and I just commented on another thread about the "black hoodie" thing and was immediately jumped on as a freeper. I was only voicing my opinion that Nov. 2 is not about Eminem and his song and that we should all wear black hoodies to show what?! That we stand behind Eminem?! It's just stupid. Go ahead, listen to the song, worship it and pray to it. Just except that we all don't feel the same way!

[Rose Siding]

58. You got "jumped on" because...

you erroneously characterized voting as a privilege, rather than a right.

It's bad form to whine from thread to thread.

[FellowAmerican]

82. Sorry!

Next time, for you, I'll draw a picture.

[Rex]

55. Are you rationalizing self-loathing?

Mees ez cunfuseed. :crazy:

[dpt223]

56. What the fuck is your point?

Do you dislike his music?
Or, do you dislike him because of the way you perceive him?

[Eric J in MN]

60. I believe Howard Stern is sincere in wanting Kerry to win (nt)

nt

[Irishladdie]

70. Just because you don't understand Black......

Colture Doesn't mean you have to be obvious about it, Whether you like what he say's or not he has been a prophet in the terms of Urban Music. He has been a uniter in the merge of Black youth accepting White people. He is a very controversial figure that not everyone agrees with but to say that he is doing this for anything other than his heart is ridiculous. I have worked with many top notch rappers, I have been doing Sound Engineering for years. This song has Heart in it, He is speaking something special and to say he is not connecting and that you don't care who he votes for is ridiculous. What's wrong, why do you hate art?

[RetroLounge]

73. I really can't stand rap or hip-hop or Eminem

But Damn, this video is a piece or art, and a damned powerful song.

Sorry you don't get it, or maybe you haven't even watched it?

RL

[JohnnyCougar]

74. I don't think you understand what you are talking about.

Eminem appeals mainly to young white males...the ones who have no one looking out for them. Many of them are too poor to afford college, and they're white, so they don't get all the scholarship opportunities that other races do. They are, in a sense, the forgotten people (at least the ones I know). Eminem reaches out to those disenfranchised people because he speaks their language. You're not going to reach out to those people by talking about "loving gays" or whatever it is you want him to talk about. You're just not. Eminem is a voice for many confused young males...and I think he is a good one. Anyone who says he is homophobic and sexist never really got into his music, and has taken lyrics out of context. Just because he expresses his anger in a certain way doesn't mean he is biased or racist. He is simply a voice for the fears and the problems of his audience. He has compassion for both gays and women, he just has trouble showing it like any kid who grew up like him. If you really listened to his music before haranguing him with your own biased assumptions, you would see what I mean.

Just because a lot of people like him doesn't mean he has "sold out" or is "part of the establishment" or whatever. He speaks to many people. And people love him because he doesn't sell out.

Describing this film as a "scrap" shows why liberals like you are out of touch with mainstream America. It is Eminem's listeners who pay the price for this war. Just because some people from suburbia buy his music because it's cool doesn't mean there aren't real people suffering through problems that see Eminem as their only voice in the public dialog. I have no reason to believe that Eminem's motives for producing this video are not genuine. And if you get off your damn soapbox, maybe you could see this as well. His fans aren't exactly liberals, to say the least. They are the males that get hurt by Bush the most. Yet many of them think it is uncool to support Democrats because of their arrogance and ignorance when it comes to young, poor white males. This is precisely the audience that needs to hear our message...that George W. Bush is terrible for America. Eminem is reaching out to them in a way that the DNC never can. So shut your mouth before you opine about things you don't seem to understand.

[Blackrain]

78. I don't agree

If you go to any College dorm you'll hear Eminem being played no matter what the race. I also work for a major online mortgage company, and I would say 75% of the young white couples I deal with are paying off student loans(especially the Medical and Law Students)

So It's hard for me to believe that whites have hard time getting student loans. I live in the Bay area, where the average house costs 500,000 dollars. And most of my white friends love Eminem no matter what the economic background is. IMO no one since Martin Luther King has done a more effective job of getting white and blacks together then Eminem.

[JohnnyCougar]

81. I didn't say it was only poor white males that listen to Eminem.

I know he is a uniter in terms of race, as well. More people like him than who he is singing to, though.

I was making a story about the people I know that listen to him. It is true that a lot of whites don't have a problem getting loans. But poor whites brought up in a single parent household with no credit record do. In fact, I know quite a few that would like to go back to school if they could get a loan.

Obviously, Eminem is big enough to appeal to all demographics. But I feel his core base is with his poor, disenfrancised white males. I didn't mean to make it sound like that is the only type he appeals to, though.

[Nikia]

83. I was going to make a similiar point

My sister and I are actually both feminists who like Eminemem despite his misogynistic lyrics. It was weird because we both came to like him separately and later found it out. Yes, it is because he tells the story of the young white men who we grew up around. He is expressing that art, just as young black men had and continue to express that art. Rap is the art of the oppressed. I'd really like to see some mainstream feminist rap. It could be the new thing.

[secular_warrior]

84. Ahh. Of course. The "oppressed white male". EOM

[JohnnyCougar]

85. See? You still don't get it.

[amazona]

76. i care

It's one more vote for us.

20 years from now can take care of itself. Dylan didn't even wait 20 years to admit that he took on the job of protest singer because this was the job that was open, yet we all love Dylan, or at least I do.

I like an artist for his art but have to admit it is always a thrill to know a talented person agrees with my views.

[against all enemies]

87. Should we ask them not to bring their millions of voters to the polls?

You can bring your two friends and we can all feel better. And you call yourself "warrior", while eminem and stern stand up and fight.

[Cat Atomic]

89. Maybe he's just playing it for controversy.

But that doesn't really matter, does it? I have no "loyalty" to Eminem- or any other public figure, for that matter. But I'm 100% behind the message of that video and song.

[norml]

91. I like Eminem,he makes me laugh. Also he drives Dildo Reilly nuts.

Dildo Reilly has really gotten me to listen to more rap music. Rap has some of the most political,reality based,class aware music happening today.

[Bridget Burke]

92. Ain't deconstruction fun?

If you can't create art, become a critic. Grad school certainly gives you a more advanced vocabulary. (Even though "could care less" doesn't mean what you think it means.)

Eminem has never been my cup of tea but the video was fine. I may check him out, now.

[secular_warrior]

93. Try this deconstruction on for size:

I've hit a nerve with many of you folks. I've offended your middle/upper-middle class caucasian sensibilities. While you fancy yourselves as liberals, you only do so when convenient, and will protect one of your own even if that person is antithetical to liberalism... because after all -- he's one of you. But you will never admit that is the reason for the defense -- not even to yourselves. Hence the rationalizations and the excuses.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Bridget Burke]

94. So--exactly--where are you coming from?

What's your social class? What's your race? What's your education?

And what sort of failed artist are you? There's lots of art going on outside the corporate world. But there's art that will always reek. When the tip jar contains a note that says "Don't quit your day job"--another critic is born!

[secular_warrior]

95. Huh? Where did I state I was an artist ?

Defend your "brother" all you wish.

White liberal hypocrisy.

[Bridget Burke]

96. I was wondering about the source of your bitterness.

"Failed artist" comes to mind. Please let us know why you are so oppressed.

[secular_warrior]

99. White liberal hypocrisy.

[Laughing Mirror]

101. You haven't hit a nerve with anybody

and you haven't offended anybody with your spurious posts.

You don't know seem to know the first thing about Eminem, but that doesn't matter, you could just as easily picked somebody else to pick on, only next time make it somebody you actually know something about.

Eminem grew up a poor boy with a dream, like all poor boys, not to be poor. He had a talent, and he used it to become a success. He didn't have to live in a trailer park anymore. He could live wherever he wanted. Maybe he does. He could do a lot of things. But what he has chosen to do is make a political statement, a strong political statement that could reach many millions of people around the world exactly because of who is he, and who and what he represents. This is a great empowering marvelous thing for him to have done, for you and for me.

What have you done lately, secular warrior, for your people?

And watch whose sensibilities you're calling middle/upper-middle class caucasian. I, and I suspect many others here, are not any of those things, although you probably are.

[secular_warrior]

102. Dick Cheney grew up a poor/middle class boy with a talent

who used it to become a "success".

And I'm thank goodness I am not white, not suburban, not elite so that I can understand when I see hypocrisy.

You folks defend someone who is antithetical to liberalism, someone who bashes gays, women and even minorites.. who only surrounds himself with minorities in order to make a buck... who only pitches a left wing message to make a buck.. who only cares about himself and his money. He's bully and hatemonger. But he's one of you guys, and you'll defend him and make rationalizations for him.

White liberal hypocrisy.

None of you defending this individual should ever speak out on any liberal issue here or anywhere. If it is ok for your hero to be a hatemonger, it shouldn't bother you if others do it. There is a double standard going on that can only be explained by "he's one of us.. he doesn't mean bad. He's a good boy."

White liberal hypocrisy.

[Laughing Mirror]

103. I repeat

What have you done to be of service to your people?

[secular_warrior]

104. I don't answer to hypocrites.

I do what I need to do.

I will fight the bigotry whether it comes from the right, left or center.

[Laughing Mirror]

106. Sing it loud brother, holler it to the mountains

Speak out. Don't be shy. What are you doing for your people?

[secular_warrior]

107. Don't mock me, "brother". I don't answer to you people.

[Laughing Mirror]

108. To whom you answer then?

Sure would like to know.

[secular_warrior]

109. Why must I have a "master" ?

[Laughing Mirror]

110. I don't know, but you need something

maybe some kind of treatment? I don't know, but I'm not equipped or trained to help a person suffering the way you seem to be. You need to get some kind of help, and I'm sorry I'm not able to offer you anything practical.

[secular_warrior]

111. Give it a rest, "brother". You people are the ones who need "treatment"

[Laughing Mirror]

112. Tells us again who your people are

[secular_warrior]

113. My people are not your people. And I don't answer to you. Back off.

[Laughing Mirror]

114. You don't answer to me, except that you keep answering me

Who's hitting the nerve here?

[secular_warrior]

116. The nerve that will be hit is the one that will be hit

when the non-white underclass rises up against you people - the ruling elite - the white faux liberals and their corporatist breathren who hold down the non-white poor and the oppressed.

Keep defending your hatemonger brother. It is clear where the battle lines are drawn, as they were many years ago. The enemy isn't conservative or liberal - it's white hypocrisy. George Bush may go, but white hypocrisy will remain. I will work to elect John Kerry, but then I will resume working against you.

[Laughing Mirror]

117. Oh, OK.

I do agree with you about the white hypocrisy part, though, only I think you are putting the wrong people in the wrong categories. Putting Eminem in as one of the ruling elite is just plan wrong. He is and has always been against that.

[Bridget Burke]

105. Then tell us who you are.

You appear to lack any real world experience and you have no right at all to tell us we can't speak out.

Eminem is not "my hero" but he's featured in a good video.

What have you done lately?

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[secular_warrior]

98. Closet hatemonger. Defend your "brother".

[MacDo]

100. Who's Eminem?

:)

[nodehopper]

115. how is Eminem a right-winger?

He has been consistenly been anti-Bush in his music and lyrics. And while a lot of the things he writes are contraversial or offensive, his music creates a narrative of disenfrenchised blue-collar adolescence, the flip side of the "American Dream"

he is a lot of things, but he is not a right-winger.