I am SICKENED By This Thread

[slinkerwink]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x929685

I can't believe that people in that thread actually advocated "rehabilitation" for the rapists because they didn't want the "precious island culture" to be destroyed through their imprisonment. They don't seem to get that Pitcairn was relatively modern, and that they were under the laws of the UK which outlaws rape. Just because it was an island with an unique culture does NOT exempt its citizens from the rule of the law.

NO EXCUSES FOR RAPE.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

1. I agree with you

Standing by whilst rape occurs is not worth preserving an "interesting island culture".

[slinkerwink]

4. exactly

[JNelson6563]

2. Then why start another???

Can't you just add your comments to the thread of reference? Oh yeah, pretty hard to get much attention when just in with the masses.

Grandstanding righteous indignation, how predictable. I call "dupe".

Julie

[slinkerwink]

3. it's not a dupe

it's discussing how people should not use "culture" to justify rape, burqas, or female genital mutilation practices.

[JNelson6563]

5. You mean like in this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x929685

Why not post your views on the thread in the actual thread? I know it's harder to get noticed and all but you could just keep kickin' it.

I see you haven't changed a bit Slink.

[slinkerwink]

11. I see you're still harboring that grudge

:shrug: have it your way.

[foreigncorrespondent]

14. A personal attack...

...isn't really warranted on the OP, just because you may not agree with what the OP is saying.

If you felt it was a dupe then you should have just hit alert on it, and not gone so far as to attack. That is uncalled for.

[slinkerwink]

16. it's ok

she has the right to her own opinion like I have the right to my own opinion.

[UL_Approved]

6. Agree in a different way

I do consider forced rape and rape of a minor (someone not capable of good judgment) to be a capitol crime. I do, however, have to ask why this has only been brought to trial now. Did this just become "apparent" now, or has the last few hundred years of this island been spent on another planet? How did they actually make the decision to prosecute this? Why are they only targeting people who do NOT live on the island now? What about those still on the island who perform this abuse? Is this really about justice as such, or a backhanded political/corporate maneuver to exterminate Pitcairn culture?

Original article:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6323696

[arcos]

8. a woman on the island told a visiting british policewoman...

in 1999... so, yes, it seems the island was virtually in another planet before.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. Yes, I think it became apparent recently

As the article says: "The abuse went on for decades before police launched an investigation after one victim told a visiting British police woman about it in 1999."

In such a small, isolated community, things like that could easily get covered up. Remember Pitcairn Island has been populated for about 200 years (and that was with a break in the 19th century, I think), with a unique mixture of British and Tahitian culture. They almost were on another planet - the original mutineers went there hoping never to be found.

The people who have been convicted DO live on the island. So I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[UL_Approved]

21. In Error

I mis-read the article. It said that about the victims. Sorry about that.

[slappypan]

7. oh c'mon Slink

Don't you understand how 40-year-old men fucking 7-year-old girls is a unique expression of humanity's essential nature and precious evolutionary heritage, or something? I swear, whenever there is a thread dealing with rape or sexual abuse around here, it reads like John Norman novel.

:puke:

[elehhhhna]

10. Pitcairn is very remote & isolated and the women rely on the men...

so they didn't want to "lose " them. I'll bet there's a "religious " aspect to this little cult of perverts.

The island has a very violent history and the people seem rather backward.

[slinkerwink]

12. oh, we have to preseve every single misogynistic culture

that advocates female genital mutilation and burqas, etc.....

Why, let those little African nations carry on their mass rapes, and we won't pay attention. </sarcasm>

It's because of people like these who say it's the culture, that they actually are condoning the existence of human rights abuses against women.

[foreigncorrespondent]

13. Slink...

...I understand what you are saying, but I can't agree fully with you.

How many years have the people on Pitcairn Is been left alone by the Brits? I honestly feel that now, the Brits really have no rights what so ever coming in and throwing their laws about.

I even heard today that there is likely to be more charges laid. Some coming from Australia and others from New Zealand.

This is a culture all to themselves. The world has left them alone, and now, just because they are doing something we don't like, really doesn't give us the right to go in and mess with them, does it?

What right do we have to push our beliefs onto them?

[slinkerwink]

15. excuse me---this island was already under the UK laws

and the men on that island violated those laws by raping women, one of them a 7 year old girl.

There's a reason why women in other countries suffer from mass rapes, female genital mutilation, and stonings----it's because we don't want to interfere in their "cultures."

Your argument is faulty at best and we can't hold our laws in abeyance, such as UN laws forbidding fgm and rape, just because it's the culture. The law, regardless of the place or region, should be applied fairly.

[foreigncorrespondent]

17. Slink...

...The U.K government hasn't paid nay attention to Pitcairn Is for bloody centuries. The really don't have the bloody right to go in and begin forcing their laws on an Island which has survived for centuries without the U.K. laws or help.

And Slink, if you believe we have a right to go in and mess with these people then you also believed we had that same right to go into Iraq. It is the same damn thing, just different circumstances.

And if you believe we should begin forcing our ways on other cultures then do you believe the Christian fundamentalist has the same right to force their way onto you? I bet you answer no.

Sorry, Slink, but your argument is full of holes.

[slinkerwink]

18. so we should stand by and let them rape young girls?

[foreigncorrespondent]

19. Kiddo...

...it isn't up to us to interfere in a culture we really don't understand.

Do you like people interfering in the queer culture? Forcing their ways on us?

We don't agree with it, but we simply cannot just go and begin pushing our beliefs on every culture that differs slightly or largely from our own can we?

[slinkerwink]

20. if men on hawaii started raping young girls......US wouldn't stand by

and those men would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The same should go for the men of the Pitcairn islands since they are governed by the UK rules.

[foreigncorrespondent]

22. You aren't listening, Slink!

Pitcairn Island has been left alone by the British for centuries. They formed their own culture, away from the British culture the Bounty guys knew.

Hawaii hasn't been left alone from the U.S. since the U.S. declared Hawaii their 50th state. You see the difference? And on the subject of Hawaii, do you believe they should be given their sovereignty back? After all, the U.S. has forced their way of life onto them for a bloody long time now, haven't they?

You are compairing apples to oranges here, Slink.

Rape to us is wrong, but in the Pitcairn community it has been this way for bloody centuries. Now, only now is the British forcing their laws on this culture. Sorry, but it way too fucking late for that.

If you want to blame anyone for this, then blame the bloody British governments who have left Pitcairn Island alone for all those centuries.

[slinkerwink]

23. how can the british be enforcing their laws since pitcairn island is

ALREADY under those laws? The men of pitcairn islands violated those laws, and it doesn't matter about their culture, or how they were left alone----this was covered up, and it is wrong.

[foreigncorrespondent]

24. Let me put it to you this way...

...maybe then you will understand where I am coming from.

The U.K hasn't given a shit about Pitcairn Island in fucking centuries, they certainly don't have the right to begin now.

Australia is a commonwealth nation, and we haven't been left alone in all these years. Canada is a commonwealth nation and they haven't been left alone in all their years, so we pretty much follow U.K. laws. Pitcairn Island has been left alone for centuries, and have lived their life like the men of the Bounty believed life should be.

Now think back through the centuries, Slink, how were women looked upon by men during the Bounty's time?

This is a different culture from ours, and we cannot force our beliefs on them. There are a lot of cultures out there who fall under British rule but have their own ways. Ways we may not believe in, but they are still allowed to live those ways.

[slinkerwink]

25. the UK has the right to begin to care about Pitcairn Island

because it IS under UK laws and has been for the past hundred years/etc. It would be different if it was not under UK laws, but it is. It still makes it very wrong though.

[foreigncorrespondent]

27. Oh bullshit, and you know it!

Stop grasping at straws to win this, Slink, because no matter what you say, you won't win me over to such a black and white way of thinking. Add some colour to your mind, girl.

But, I do however give up. I am sick of having this argument with you, especially when you obviously have a very closed mind, and are not willing to listen properly.

I just got off work, and I am really exhausted and going to bed.

Have a good day.

[slinkerwink]

28. I will not accept any excuses for rape or female genital mutilation or

beatings. no excuses. You might think I'm being obstinate, but that's how I see it when it comes to women's issues.

[foreigncorrespondent]

29. Not obstinate...

...and I wouldn't say you are very world defined either.

It is the arrogance of cultures interfereing in other cultures that has brought us to the mess we see ourselves in today. Perhaps if the arrogance wasn't there, things would be a lot different.

It takes an arrogance society to believe they can just go in and begin turning a culture upside down after it has been left alone for hundreds of years.

Have a good day, Slink. I am really off to bed.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

30. Pitcairn is a U.K. crown colony and as such is subject to U.K laws

Pitcairn receives substantial subsidies from the U.K. Treasury that sustain the island and it's infrastructure. If Pitcairn does not wish to abide by the laws of the U.K. then they can hold a referendum and apply for independence from the U.K.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

33. Talk about full of holes

Because the U.K. has been negligent in enforcing their laws in Pitcairn for centuries they have ceded all rights to do so in the future? Not only does that not make sense, but that isn't the point. This is not about forcing our cultural beliefs on them but about protecting what the world has decided are inalienable rights of humans. These are the rights of humans that transcend cultural boundaries. At what point would you interfere? Slavery? Genocide? Torture? That is the issue, not what the U.K. has or hasn't done in the past.

[gpandas]

31. raping seven year olds is

"something we don't like"? like a bad burger?

[m berst]

26. your argument may be full of holes...

but I think your moral stance is correct. I would rather have the right moral sense and the wrong argument, than the other way around. An argument we can develop and improve. :)

Were a culture to be found to be practicing torture, or throwing infants into the fire as part of a religious practice, would we not put a stop to that if we could? My answer to that is yes, because I believe that there are fundamental and unchanging moral principles involved and that those pronciples transcend cultural practices in importance.

There are cultures that are bad - warlike, destructive, cruel and exploitative. Was Carthage morally equal to Rome? No, and mankind is better off as a result of Rome winning and Carthage losing. Am I making a value judgement here? Yes. The Romans prayed to their Gods asking for abundance, peace, fertility and strong families and communities. They looked to signs and omens for guidance. Primitive and superstitious, yes, but good. The Cartaginians prayed to their Gods asking for conquest, pillage and sensual gratification. They threw live infants into the fire as their worship ritual. Primitive and superstitious and bad.

If we accept that there are things that are good, and there are things that are bad - unambiguously and universally - and we accept that all cultures are not equal, and if we are also willing to intervene across cultures to prevent certain bad things and to promote certain good things, then the only question remaining is whether or not rape rises to the level of seriousness to warrant intervention.

I say that it does. I say that it is universal that human beings - mostly women and especially children - are uniquely and universally vulnerable to rape, that rape is bad - always - and that it is not possible to imagine a civilized society within which rape is ever excused, encouraged, or condoned.

But can you see the groundwork that needs to be established here?

I think that we do in fact accept the premises listed above, and are willing to intervene, and act on that all the time for whatever we might say, and that this is often obscured by a wish to believe that we don't act on these premises.


on edit - typos, as always

[okayremedy7]

32. Agree n/t

[Moderator]

34. I'm locking this thread

Reason:

continuation of a flamewar