NTSB: Co-Pilot Caused 2001 Crash..(put on your B.S. detectors)

[SoCalDem]

NTSB: Co-Pilot Caused 2001 Crash
ktla 5 - 28 minutes ago
Investigators say overreaction led to crash of American 587 at New York's JFK, killing 265.

By Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar and Michael Muskal
Times Staff Writers

October 26, 2004, 9:58 AM PDT

WASHINGTON -- The staff of the National Transportation Safety Board today blamed the co-pilot for the U.S.' second-deadliest crash, the 2001 destruction of an American Airlines flight taking off from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York.

Meeting in Washington, the agency's board heard how the plane's copilot overreacted and caused Flight 587 to crash, killing all 260 people on board and five on the ground in Belle Harbor, N.Y.

The 150-ton Airbus A300 took off on Nov. 12, 2001 bound for the Dominican Republic — just two months after terrorists knocked down the World Trade Center in Manhattan, killing about 3,000 people and sending New York into shock.

The crash into a quiet residential neighborhood further strained nerves stretched thin by Sept. 11 and ignited fears that terrorists had struck again.

"Several human performance and airplane characteristics combined in a most unfortunate way," said Robert Benzon, the lead investigator on the safety board's staff.

more @
http://ktla.trb.com/news/nationworld/nation/ktla-102604ntsb_lat,0,2123908.story?coll=ktla-news-1

[dave123williams]

1. Right; and a frayed wire brought down Flight 800.

[nostamj]

2. read this thread

Father of Flight 587 Co-Pilot Speaks Out

it includes a post from a DUer whose husband knew the co-pilot and flew THAT JET shortly before the day of the crash

[SoCalDem]

5. I did read it.. I think blaming the pilots is a cop-out

but I did not see the newspaper article posted

[nostamj]

8. well, that was my point.

the wife (the DUer) also discounted blaming the pilots...

:shrug:

[OutsourceBush]

3. US gov desn't want the public to know that 587 and 800 were taken down

by terrorists. They must be afraid it would ruin the airline industry, what is left of it, if Americans knew that terrorists have had successes inside the US.

There was another plane that went down before 911, and I don't have the flight number handy, but I remember that the co-pilot took control of the jet and plunged it into the sea killing all aboard, shouting 'God is Great!" That seemed to be the set-up for 911, but you don't hear much about it do you?

[SoCalDem]

6. That was an Egyptian airliner

and you are right..I think that was related too..

[frylock]

9. i still think that 800 was an accidental navy shoot down..

do you have any links to substantiate a possible act of terrorism? I'd like to research them. TIA.

[OutsourceBush]

10. No links, just looking at it in the big picture after 911

at the times people said they saw a rocket lauched and heading up toward the aircraft. Shoulder launch missle attack?

I don't believe the US gov wants people to know how unsafe they are, so they cover these things up. That's just my opinion. Only people that will ever know are the ones in charge of the investigations and the people they report to.

[frylock]

11. author peter lance thinks the same thing..

he wrote about it in his new book. I've read quite a bit about 800, and Lance's theory was the first I had ever heard anyone speculate about an act of terrorism. Thanks for the response.

[alarimer]

18. there is no evidence that this is tue

Planes crash for a lot of reasons, not all of which are terror. The NTSB does a good job, given what they have to work with (just pieces mainly). The EgyptAir crash was one lone nutcase, probably not related to 9/11 or anything else.

[dave123williams]

21. Hell, if only one plane had hit the WTC on 9/11, they'd still be...

calling it a 'tragic mishap'.

[keopeli]

4. Aside: Stolen explosives in Iraq weighed over twice as much as this plane!

[Ezlivin]

7. Successful terrorist attack

Since nearly everyone was still focused on Sept. 11, when AA 587 went down on Sept. 12, it didn't receive the sort of attention that it deserved.

Eyewitnesses were ignored or told to shut-up.

Surveillance cameras that had captured the aircraft in distress had their videos taken and never returned. The videos were never shown.

An expert told how easy it would be to disable an aircraft as it sat on the tarmac.

As a pilot, I've have never before heard that it is possible to "tear off the tail" of an aircraft by "aggressive use of the rudder." It's like saying that you can tear off the wings by aggressively using the ailerons.

[OutsourceBush]

14. It stinks of cover-up for sure

Your second links tells the tell...

"With flight 587, more than a dozen eyewitnesses, including a police lieutenant and a firefighter, said they saw an explosion before the vertical stabilizer and both engines separated from the plane"

[Jacobin]

19. You're a pilot?

I don't know if I read your post correctly.

Of course you can cause structural failure of aircraft parts by movements over the design limits. Its simple physics.

Flight school refresher course maybe?

[gulfcoastliberal]

12. Transcript of Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR)

CVR:

# 9:11:35: TOWER: American five eighty-seven heavy Kennedy tower, caution wake turbulence runway three one left, taxi into position and hold.

# 9:14: (Flight 587 begins its takeoff, getting off the ground by 9:15.)

# 9:15:28: STATES: Clean machine.

# 9:15:28: MOLIN: (sound similar to yawn) Thank you.

# 9:15:44: STATES: Little wake turbulence, huh?

# 9:15:44: MOLIN: Yeah.

# 9:15:47: (sound similar to five sets of stabilizer trim switch clicks)

# 9:15:48: MOLIN: Two fifty thank you.

# 9:15:51: (sound of a thump)

# 9:15:52: (sound of click)

# 9:15:52: (sound of two thumps)

# 9:15:54: MOLIN: Max power (spoken in strained voice)

# 9:15:55: STATES: You all right?

# 9:15:55: MOLIN: Yeah, I’m fine.

# 9:15:56: STATES: Hang onto it. Hang onto it.

# 9:15:56: (sound of snap)

# 9:15:57: MOLIN: Let’s go for power, please.

# 9:15:57: (sound of loud thump)

# 9:15:58: (sound of loud bang)

# 9:16:00: MOLIN: (sound similar to grunt)

# 9:16:00: (roaring noise starts and increases in amplitude)

# 9:16:01: Holy (expletive)

# 9:16:01: (sound similar to single chime)

# 9:16:02: (sound similar to single chime)

# 9:16:04: (sound similar to stall warning repetitive chime for 1.9 seconds)

# 9:16:06: (roaring noise decreases and ends)

# 9:16:07: What the hell are we into (unintelligible). We’re stuck in it.

# 9:16:07: (sound similar to continuous repetitive chimes for one second)

# 9:16:09: (sound similar to continuous repetitive chimes for three seconds)

# 9:16:12: STATES: Get out of it, get out of it.

END OF RECORDING

"Get out of it! Get out of it!" Capt. Edward States hollered as the cockpit recorder went silent.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/31405p-29761c.html

The captain has dual rudder controls and could have stopped Molin if he was doing anyhting wrong. Also, anyone who knows anything about flying understands when something goes wrng with the plane (obviously unless it's an engine problem) you increase power. Molin did that and more, using emergency power to try to keep the plane in the air. Captain States must have agreed with the course of action or he would've suggested something else. His "clean machine" comment seems to me like a compliment on the takeoff. They waited over 2 minutes on the tarmac for the wake to clear.

Remember the NYT hit piece on him? Classic Agency public disinformation. This was no pilot error and they heap insult upon injury for this poor family who suffer due to *'s incompetence. The gov't had warnings this would happen that day.

[Nashyra]

13. Thank you all for the posts

My husband and I have been watching and listening to reports on this all day. it is really hard to listen to the media flat out saying it was Sten's fault. It wasn't, it just wasn't.

[gulfcoastliberal]

16. You're welcome! I'm really pissed they are covering this up by blaming him

nt

[OutsourceBush]

17. even if one would chose to believe the gov cover story, it still would

not be pilot error, it would be a training error according to the gov. I believe it was a terrorist explosion myself. Surely any thinking individual would agree. Any pilot that went up shortly after 911 was a brave individual and deserves all of our respect. The gov had to know that every jet was still at risk for some time after 911.

[Jacobin]

20. "clean machine:"

probably a slang reference to slats being retracted.

At higher speeds, there are 'stops' on the rudder to prevent over steer and too much stress on the rudder. At lower speeds, the 'stops' are automatically adjusted to allow for greater movement of the rudder.

What do you think happened?

[leftofthedial]

15. in a related story

the * administration announced that the copilot of the doomed aircraft was actually Bill Clinton's penis and raised the terror alert another level to brown.

[donheld]

22. This is just plain mean

this must fall under the compassionate conservative.