Do DUers "get" issues of people of color?

[HamdenRice]

I was shocked that the moderator locked the thread concerning the number of black people at DU. I was about to post this:

The discussion at DU is very skewed away from Democratic Party concerns compared to more representative communities of Democrats. There is one guy in this thread raving about how we are not supposed to even talk about race. That went out of fashion in progressive circles about 40 years ago, when the neocons defected to the republican party!

As a black person, I like DU, but it is clearly very skewed toward young, white middle class college student and recent college student type discussion.

When has anyone here every posted anything first hand about an inner city neighborhood? Or the likelihood that young people of color are going to turn out to vote this year?
>>>

The moderator locking this thread, calling it a flame war, simply because the taboo issue of racial representativeness and relevance of DU is only proof that DU is not representative and many people here really don't "get it" when it comes to racial justice issues.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

1. Ive had 100+ discussions of race - a flamewar is a flamewar

and the answer to your question is yes

[AIJ Alom]

2. I do. Being a resident of an inner city community with a lot of friends of

all races.

[almostallhere]

3. I'm new here, so I don't think I can contribute much to this

discussion but i would definitely like to see the thoughts of long-time DUers on this.

[HamdenRice]

4. you better discuss fast ..

because my experience is that racial topics get locked or moved pretty quickly.

[cheezus]

5. yep, heaven forbid the users are allowed to discuss what they want

on "democratic" underground

[951]

8. we're not

have you read the rules lately?

[cheezus]

these rules?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

BIGOTRY

Do not post racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic, anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry. Unambiguous expressions of bigotry will be deleted, and will often result in the immediate banning of the individual responsible.

If it is not clear whether a comment is bigoted, we will generally give the benefit of the doubt and assume the least-bigoted interpretation. However, individuals who repeatedly post borderline-bigoted comments will be considered bigots and will be removed.

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view. This will help avoid misunderstandings and undeserved accusations of bigotry.

[951]

6. Let it die please

I'll say it again being of a particular race doesn't give you the absolute right to make racist statements same goes for statements made against gender or sexual orientation.

[BurtWorm]

Let what die? A discussion about race at DU?

Why should that be off-limits? Why are people uncomfortable about this subject here? Why is a question about disproportion among the races represented on this board assumed to be coming from a racist place? I thought devilgrrl's original question was perfectly valid.

[951]

19. We have a section for this discussion

and no devilgrrl was ranting you cannot judge race by photos in the profiles because of two reasons most people don't own a camera and most people don't want to be identified so her "theory" is flawed I don't understand why we are digging this up its just attracting flames and dividing DU'ers .


P.S The section is under Issues >> Civil Rights/Equality/Privacy >> description: Constitution, Race, Gender, Sexual Orientation, Reproductive Rights, Religious Liberty, Arts, Etc.

[BurtWorm]

27. Well there's a section for almost every thread in this forum.

But who reads them in their "proper" place?

Devilgrrl was not ranting. She was asking a legitimate question and trying to gauge how well represented black people were at DU. Look at the the thread. It didn't get ugly until some people took offense at the idea that anyone should dare ask such a question.

[VelmaD]

7. You make a big assumption...

about the demographics of DUers. I'm not sure the college student stereotype is anywhere close to the truth...the vast majority of DUers I have met in person have been in their 30s or 40s.

That said, yes, there are people on this board who jus tdon't get it when it comes to racial issues (or gender issues or GLBT issues). The unfortunate fact is that not everyone on DU is a progressive.

[m berst]

9. agreed

"...it is clearly very skewed toward young, white middle class college student and recent college student type discussion."

Indeed. Well said and that is my view also.

[SoCalDem]

25. 55 yr old mongrel here

Tone is everything.

The thread mentioned, started out as a musing about the lack of pictures NOT in the gallery.. By the time it ended, it was something very different..

DU is very diverse..People choose to have their photos in the gallery or not..

I don't put mine there, because I am NOT photogenic, and I hate having my picture taken..

If my kids want a picture of me when I am dead and gone, they;ll have to take it as they haul me out on a gurney :)

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. As a not so very youngish (34) married, wife and mother, I don't find

it skewed toward that group you mentioned at all. I think I "get it", but if I said that I did, I think most would assume that I didn't and that I was just being PC. In today's society issues, whatever they may be, should belong and be understood by all of us. I could pose the question, "Do DUers get the issues of the modern day 'soccer mom'? " Some will and some won't. It comes out in the various threads, IMO.


On edit: FWIW, I haven't stepped foot inside a college classroom per se in 8 years. :hi:

[papau]

11. Love the Golden - "Race" indeed simply means folks of color -

and you'd be surprised at the number old farts (myself), and nice grandmas and grandpas that are DUers!

:-)

I suspect most folks except the white rich have experienced rejection because of the group identity - be it by the way they speak, or look, or the teams they follow.

And I agree "skin color" rejection - or non- acceptance - or even lack of a neutral approach - is many multiple times more serious than folks getting down on those from a given country, or region of the nation, or region of the city.

But the solution - tolerance - is the same, no matter what the degree of problems in the past. We need to create a tolerant world and nation. We all should be working to that end, IMHO.

:-)

[MadHound]

12. Please friend, we discuss issues of all sorts here

Apparently you haven't noticed that. Look, I've discussed all sorts of issues, and linked them to the angle from the inner city. Issues such as gun control, the election, birth control/abortion, the list is long. Why do I link them to inner city issues? Because until recently, I lived there. Oh, and I'm white by the by, does that make any difference(it shouldn't)?

Oh, and I, and a great many others here, don't fit into your nice, neat little stereotype. Yes, I'm white, but I'm not a college student, nor a recent grad. Middle class? Well, technically yes, but my wallet says I'm a little further down the food chain than that. I started out my adult life homeless and jobless for a couple of years, so my perspective is pretty inclusive.

I think your vague generalities are a very devisive tactic. Perhaps this is intentional, perhaps not. But in any case, I suggest you do some digging in the archives, listen to the people around here, read their posts for awhile longer before you go making such blanket judgements.

[sandnsea]

*sigh*

How helpful is a thread that says "where's all the minorities". Not too.

A few days ago there was a thread about Bush saying "shuffling those kids through school". I had no idea the word shuffle was always considered offensive when used in a way that indicates minorities, said so. So I learned something. That's a helpful thread, for all kinds of discussion.

There's all kinds of threads here about protecting the minority vote. Earlier this year there were all kinds of threads about doing a better job reaching the minority vote early. There was just a thread yesterday about a shooting of a 15 year old kid, and some posted that the attitude of cops is shoot first, particularly with minorities, including me.

I would think most would know that computer ownership of minorities is low and a problem. Just as we know unemployment and poverty is high in minority communities. That's just one more reason we're trying to get a different President.

[HamdenRice]

13. The most annoying part

is the surprising number of people like 951 who label any discussion of race as itself racist. That is enough to drive any person of color away, and it is a not uncommon view here.

I will stand corrected about age if a lot of you believe I am wrong and are older than 25.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

24. I didn't see 951 say that.

Was that perhaps on the other thread?

[HamdenRice]

30. comment 6

it is partly on the other thread, but even in this thread, he is suggesting that discussion of race is itself making "racist comments." Also, he is now suggesting that this topic be moved to civil rights -- ie, the discussion ghetto for black, red, queer, yellow, etc people.

[sangh0]

14. Yes and no

I do think there is a significant number of DUers who truly and fully "get it". In addition, I think most DUers do "get it" to some extent, and only a very small portion belong to the group that "does not get it"

However, I do think there's a little deficit of "getting it" amongst those who, either because of inexperience (ie youth or sheltered life) or ignorance, have a fundamental blindness when it comes to understanding the how's and why's concerning how strongly black people feel about certain issues.

I think the black community's position on gay marriage is a good example of how many don't "get" black issues. There seems to be an assumption that because blacks believe in civil rights, they will see this issue in those terms. It seems some are unaware of the profound conservatism on social issues that many blacks adhere to.

[ibegurpard]

15. It was locked because some people can't seem to discuss

things without flinging epithets at each other, not because the topic is taboo.
Whether the black membership of DU is representative of their numbers in the population at large might be a valid question but using the gallery as a way of gauging their numbers is flawed.

[Dogmudgeon]

16. It's still a tough topic

It's difficult to talk about race, even after 50 years of Civil Rights. We -- none of us -- really know what the "ground rules" are, and even a small amount of resentment on anybody's part can turn a civil discussion into a firefight.

My parents grew up "politely racist", and early in their adult lives, saw the effects of racism. My father saw it as a chief in the Army, when Black enlisted personnel were blamed for everything that went wrong on base -- my mother had both Black and Asian (Chinese) friends in high school, and couldn't avoid knowing that she was privileged within an unjust system. Their confrontation of racism shamed them intensely, and they did what they could to remedy the situation. They were never really free of the fear of or the alienation from people of less-favored groups, but they raised us kids to at least value justice and not to judge people on criteria like race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

But I'm 46, and while I think I've generally gotten along well with the Black folks I've known, I can't really be sure. There's no scoreboard. All I can say is that I try where I can, and defer to the judgement of wiser people than me.

--bkl

[Kolesar]

17. I cannot say I know if I "get it".

Your experience has been quite different than mine. I expect that I don't even know how different. I have made some effort to understand the issues of black people, but I guess it would take a black person to tell me if I "get it".

(I totally missed the locked thread that you referred to.)

[malachibk]

18. I'm a young, lower-middle class, white grad student...

and I think that this country needs to talk about race openly and honestly.

So please don't lump all of us together.

I live in a working class West Indian neighborhood in Brooklyn and before that I lived in a working class Dominican neighborhood in Manhattan.

And my dissertation is about racial/ethnic health disparities.

If you want to talk about race from an inner-city perspective, I'm all for it.

Not all white people are the same.

[hiphopnation]

28. imagine that

Not all white people are the same.

so it is for all black people, asians, hispanics.

Also interesting that a "discussion" of race (not necessarily devlgrll's original thread because it was specifically about blacks) immediately assumes the black/white polarization and leaves out most other ethnicities. DU is definitely touchy when it comes to issues of race. :shrug:

[malachibk]

41. I'm not sure how to take your reply...

Are you agreeing with me, or taking issue with something I said?

I was responding to this inital post that said this board takes a white, liberal, student point of view by not wanting to talk about race (this was my interpretation, anyway.)

I don't think I assumed any polarization at all, I just didn't like someone lumping all white, liberal students together that way.

I would have been just as pissed if it said "Asian, liberal student" point of view.

So, what did you mean?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

20. How do you know DU is skewed?

I hope you are not going by the other poster's observation that DU doesn't have enough black members because most of the photos in the gallery are of white members.

In the other thread, you said:

"Self selection bias is only relevant when the basis for self selection is related to the characteristic you are measuring."

But by making that statement, you reveal that you know very little about scientific and statistical methods. There is no way of knowing the relationship between self-selection and another characteristic. A self-selected sample is, by definition, not a representative sample. It is not a random sample.


And the other thread was not locked because of discussions of race. It was locked because people were violating the rules.

[Cocoa]

21. do you, personally, post here about racial issues?

if not, does it mean that you don't "get" those issues?

That particular thread was doomed, imo, because its premise was flawed. That doesn't mean that race can't be talked about, it just means that it has to be done right or it won't work.

[HamdenRice]

36. And please tell me ...

how must I "talk right" about my racial experiences?

As for my posts -- they are usually about all sorts of things: the elections, international relations, the war, civil liberties. Do I have to have a "good record" to contribute to a threat about race, such as the one devilgrrl started? or to start my own thread about how race is perceived on DU?

[sister moon]

22. Is there some sort of a crackdown

on people expressing their views on this website today? How do people have discussions about anything--race, gender, religion, you name it--when threads get locked? Please tell me what it means to be a progressive, then. Are we limited to "apppoved speech" and "right thinking"? What ever happened to disagreeing with what someone says but defending the right to say it? Frankly, I'm shocked at the rigidity I am finding here today.

[VelmaD]

31. Threads get locked because...

some people here are incapable of discussing race or gender or whatever without resorting to name-calling and personal attacks. I know this from personal experience from just about every time we've tried to discuss gender issues and sexism on this board. Personally I don't want the threads locked and I hate seeing posts deleted...when someone acts like an idiot I want their words to stand for all time to show people who they really are. But the admins and I don't see eye to eye on this.

[HamdenRice]

23. I don't think anyone can completely "get" another person's experience

but one step in the right direction is honest open exchange of ideas. If you are white and you are not sure you get it, at least you are open to learning.

I have been reading DU for a long time but don't post that much, and one of the reasons is that honestly, I find a lot of weird close mindedness on race from the old pre 1960s perspective of liberal white people that discussions of race are themselves harmful. I thought that that was why the moderator locked the thread, not because of flames, which were few. A lot of the discussion on that thread was about math and probability and the gallery.

I obviously cannot prove it by reference to the archives, but I get a strong vibe that there is a tendency to censor and shut down, or label racist, rather than allow, racial discussions here.

[951]

29. How would you feel if we moved your topic to the proper section called

"Civil Rights/Equality/Privacy" instead of completely locking your flame-bait topic?

[BurtWorm]

32. Please speak for yourself!

Don't include me in that "we."

[HamdenRice]

33. why is self examination about racial topics flame bait?

Is there one flame in this thread? It seems very thoughtful and introspective. And because we are not discussion race and law, I don't see how this topic comes under civil rights. It is more introspective general discussion about these boards.

Unless you think the very discussion of race is somehow offensive.

[951]

38. "Unless you think the very discussion of race is somehow offensive"

Is it when its based on false flawed assumptions.

[VelmaD]

39. Actually pretty much all "self-examination" about the site...

is locked. Not just about race. You're really lucky this thread has survived this long since it questions the moderators who locked the previous thread.

[HamdenRice]

42. good point ...

maybe they're just letting us vent!

[eaprez]

26. locked the thread for discussing race?

OH MY!!!!!!!!

[Taylor Mason Powell]

34. Surprisingly, DU is not that "young."

As a black person, I like DU, but it is clearly very skewed toward young, white middle class college student and recent college student type discussion.

I don't think this is all that clear at all. A week or two ago, someone posted a thread asking DUers to check in and say their ages. I don't have time to go hunt it down, but I remember being surprised that the vast majority were people in their 30s, 40s and 50s.

[knowbody0]

35. i was taught at an early age

that the creator made four peoples-black,red,yellow and white.
that the creator made four directions-north,south,east and west.
i trip when i hear people of color are non-whites,then i just laugh.
human beans.

[jgardner]

37. My impression

Even though I don't have many posts behind my name, I visit this site several times per day, and have for several months. My impression has been that most people who post here are extremely intelligent and experienced in this world. I am constantly learning from the other members. I was genuinely surprised to see that you find the site to be skewed towards "white middle class college students" - that's not the impression that I've ever gotten.

[Selwynn]

40. This happens all the time.

It's nothing new.

There's a fine line between stopping flame wars and being to cowardly to tolerate important discussion of serious and sensitive issues. We can all sit around all day and post the latest election poll and BS about what Michael Moore is doing and post the latest crazy freeper comment of the day, and post the ten billionth "why is liberal a bad word" thread. But personally, I am sifting through those threads trying to find threads of substance.

We ought to foster an environment that encouraged challenging discussion on difficult issues, not one that stifles it.

[VelmaD]

43. Unfortunately I speak from experience...

in the "bitch" wars. There is a small but very loud minority on this board who are incapable of having a thoughtful, challenging discussion on serious and sensitive topics. They have to jump in and fling crap and turn it into a flamewar. Even so, I'd rather have the flamewar and at least try to find some intelligent conversation than have threads locked so quickly.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

44. If you really wanted to discuss race...

...wouldn't it have been more productive to leave that other locked thread out of the discussion entirely? The thread was not locked because the subject of race is taboo. It was locked because of rule violations. You can go to the Ask the Mods forum if you want to complain about a thread being locked.

I'm more than happy to discuss race issues, and have many times, as have many other DUers. But your question is much too general. What exactly do you want to hear? None of us can follow every DU thread. We pick and choose the threads that interest us. So no one can have a clear picture of what DUers are discussing the most. If you think there aren't enough threads that deal with race issues, you are free to post more of them.

[Moderator]

45. I'm locking this thread ..Please repost your concerns

In the Ask The Administration Forum