Will you ever discuss politics again with someone who votes for Bush?

[bling bling]

Over the years I've enjoyed talking about politics with my family members who are Republicans. I've honestly enjoyed the debate and sharing of viewpoints.

That's changed for me now. If they support Bush this year, I am done discussing all forms of politics with them in the future, no matter what happens this election. Why? Because they've completely lost their credibility with me.

I'll most likely get past the anger and frustration and even find peace in my heart towards * supporters. But I'll never take anything else they say seriously again, at least where politics are concerned.

[The Traveler]

1. Maybe it is too soon

But we have to talk with them eventually. The national interest is best served when liberals and conservatives engage in respectful, rational discourse in an honest attempt to discover the next right course of action. If we do no return to that tradition, soon, then we have no choice in the long run except civil war. That must be avoided.

As liberals, we must expect to lead the way of reconciliation.

[Hello_Kitty]

3. I tried that for 8 long years during the Clinton administration

With no success. And while I wholeheartedly agree with your assertions about respectful discourse from an objective standpoint, it is precisely our conciliatory attitude to the Right that enabled them to steamroll us and monopolize the media for 20 years. I'll be as respectful and open-minded as possible to anyone until I hear the hateful Kool Aid spewing out of them. Then the gloves are off!

[The Traveler]

7. We have to be the adults

for the conservatives have in recent years been the spoiled (but redeemable) children.

We have such a fine line to walk ... we have to fight the good fight without burning down the house. They obviously have no concern about that! Liberals understand the value of the conservative viewpoint but too few conservatives understand the value of ours!

I know many liberals who would fight for the right of conservatives to be heard ... but I don't know many conservatives who would fight for our right. That is why we have to be the adults here.

[Kanary]

18. One thing that doesn't work is trying to make peace with someone

who doesn't *want* peace.

You can't make an abusing spouse stop abusing unless/until that spouse finally *wants* to change.

You can't force a country to stop warring until/unless they finally are tired of war.

You can't make a sullen teenager discuss their problems with you.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Etc, etc, etc.

On the personal level, right here at DU, it is clear that it is impossible to try to discuss an issue with somebody who is hell-bent on WINNING, rather than on trying to understand the other. That is the mindset of some people, and it isn't going to change with more patience.

The same with RWers. Until/unless they finally can support their denial no longer, it is impossible to reason, because they are not capable of reasoning.

Until we figure out some way of breaking through denial, most of this ugliness will continue. Even a civil war will not solve anything, as the last one proves.

Kanary

[The Traveler]

19. Kanary, as usual you hit the nail on the head

We have to break down the walls of denial somehow.

And as Andrew Harvey once observed, if we do not dedicate ourselves to that task, the task of breaking down the denial, then who else "shall bear water to those on fire?"

[Kanary]

22. ^_^ Thanks, robg ^_^

I was expecting a negative reply.

I like that quote, "bear water to those on fire". :)

I have to reiterate, while I'd like to see myself in that role, I'm exhausted. I just can't. Especially not alone. And, I've seen right here at DU that there is precious little willingness to join together in common support for such efforts.

One thing I learned many, many years ago, is that when one takes the responsibility of using the language of peace, it makes on even more vulnerable, and one can do that only so long.

For example, I learned over 30 years ago about "I messages", which is owning your own feelings and thoughts for yourself, while conversing with another, and is the way of peace. However, if the other is invested in winning, rather than peace and understanding, they will take those "I messages" and use it against you, using "You messages". ("You shouldn't feel that way", "You are nuts", "You aren't thinking clearly", etc etc etc, and much more ugly......)

That happens right here on DU, among those who consider themselves aware, so how in the world can we expect any better from those who are *not* dedicated to peace? We can see that sincere efforts to find common ground with the RW has led to our crushing defeat over and over. Our sincerity is used against us in some very ugly ways.

I'm reading a new book that you might find interesting, although it doesn't really address these issues, either. I haven't found *anything* that actually addresses the issue of dealing with people who don't have a desire to find common ground, understanding and peace. Everything I've read assumes that your adversary has the same desires, and I've had enough defeats to know that simply isn't true. Not even among Dems, or anti-war people, or other progressives. There's a desire to WIN, whatever it takes.

But, I digress. :hi: The book is "Healing The Heart Of Conflict", by Marc Gopin.

Before I die, I hope to find that someone has an answer for this conundrum. I'm certainly not smart enough to figure it out.

Kanary

[bling bling]

4. There are many conservatives who I will still talk to

They're the ones either staying home or switching to Kerry. They know how dangerous Bush is to our country and the world. They are Americans first and Republicans second.

In my opinion anyone who is voting for Bush is too far gone that they can't be reconciled with, ever. Politically speaking, I mean.

Just my opinion, of course. And I do appreciate yours and will take it into consideration, maybe, later.

[The Traveler]

8. Definitely wait till later

Until we have achieved some balance of power in government ... until some more eyes are opened.

[Hello_Kitty]

2. My blood boils when I talk to them

I have yet to meet one who can articulate any kind of reason for voting for *. It's all "He's strong on terror" "He's a Christian" "He's pro-life, gun, whatever" or "Kerry flip flops". They are simpletons.

[Morning Dew]

27. I know a guy whose argument against Kerry is one word

botox.

That's all he's got. Friggin' moran.

[bling bling]

35. I met a guy who's argument was 3 words:

I'm not voting for Kerry because "Kerry loves queers"

Needless to say I gave up immediately. Why waste my beautiful mind on trash like that. Bush can have the votes from people like that. I don't want them on my side anyway.

[donheld]

5. I can't talk politics to most of them

It's not good for my blood pressure. :crazy:

[George_S]

6. Our Forefathers set it up this way for good reason

It prevents the assassinations and violence that normally comes with political divides.

By definition, out of respect for our Constitution, we need to respect the vote and the opinions of others. They have every right to be wrong and stupid :)

They are only dumb now because the Reacts have been setting this up for about 30 years. Their propaganda machine is well oiled and it's no surprise so many are fooled. Really, they are not to blame. Propaganda is effective. After Kerry wins, all of that will start to unfold for them.

I think the Reacts are going to take a big hit when they lose. And they know it too, which is why they are so desperate.

What a bummer it would be if we were all the same.

[bling bling]

9. It's the credibility issue for me.

Someone who votes for Bush, in my mind, is someone who is out of touch or willfully, stubbornly blind to the damage of this administration.

For me it would be like discussing astronomy with someone who I find out stubbornly believes the earth is flat and the sun revolves around us. No credibility on the topic at hand so I wouldn't be interested in continuing the conversation.

[Kanary]

20. Question for you.......

"After Kerry wins, all of that will start to unfold for them."

I'm not challenging you, but am really interested in how you see this happening.

I just see more of the same....... distortions, false allegations bedeviling *anyone* who takes over the White House.

I don't see the RW neocons going quietly. They've been at this for over a generation now, and will continue.

So, I'm interested in how you see this happening.

Kanary

[George_S]

34. True, maybe it's only wishful thinking

But if you've followed any of "the tangled web we weave" threads here that connect the dots, and the threads on how the word "liberalism" was hijacked and made ugly through propaganda, and compare that to how strong and united and proud liberals are today, the React's black web is bound to break under the weight. It is already breaking.

I'm pretty sure the Reacts consider this their victory election after decades of work. They got over-confident and thought they had it. In the process, they revealed too much of their dirty tricks.

No, it still won't be easy, but the momentum now will be on our side, not theirs. Even if we don't take the House or Senate (and there is a chance we will do better than thought in both), they will have lost the the momentum they had since the mind 90s.

And Kerry likes to investigate things. Don't forget that the 9/11 Commission left a lot out for until after the election. Plus, there will be a battle within their party.

None of this is good for the Conservatives, and the neocons split them in many ways.

After the election, all we have to do is keep it up and keep researching how they came to power and popularity through propaganda and deception - state by state.

[Kanary]

37. Yes, george, I've "followed the threads"

:eyes:

You may have noticed I've been here quite a bit longer than you, so yes, I've read at least as much as you have.

:eyes:

What I don't think you're connecting with is that the Dem Party, and that includes folks at DU, don't seem to have yet developed a real commitment to ACTION.

It's gonna take more than wishful thinking and ....... research...... ?

Kanary

[flordehinojos]

10. One way my cousin artfully employs to block any communication from me

regarding The Master of Deceit, Lies and Manipulations, is to say, "this is a free country. you have a right to your opinion. i have a right to mine. i respect your opinion. please respect mine."
with that she walls off any possible dialogue re: the shrub that differs from her point of view.

[Mechatanketra]

11. In the words of the late Daniel P. Moynihan ...

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.

All men may be created equal, but their opinions are not. If my opinion is supported by facts and logic, it has earned respect; an opinion formed (as so many GOP supporters do) in defiance of facts and logic has not.

[flordehinojos]

15. Thanks for the post, it brings a broad smile to my face!

:)

[Seabiscuit]

12. In a word: NO. I've come to regard them as enemies of humankind.

[LaPera]

13. Never!

[leftofthedial]

14. I'll have a hard time discussing anything

with fascist supporters.

[DELUSIONAL]

16. NO!

n/t

[saracat]

17. I not only won't talk politics with them, I am cutting them out of my life

completely. This is no valid reason to vote for Bush. To do so one must either be stupid or venal. I will not associate with any such persons, related or not. Life is to short and I don't choose to spend it with people who are valueless and have nothing to contribute.

[LittleClarkie]

21. Yep, sounds like the safest course

for them at least. Much more of the chimp smirk out of my Republican friends and I'm going to beat them upside the head.

[Guava Jelly]

23. I will speak to them

And inform them how retarded they are for voting for the retard.

[malmapus]

24. Yeah, I'm biting my tongue now

My fiancee has two sisters who are both voting for *. Last thing I told them was, if you support him and he wins..grab a rifle and goto Iraq and let my buddies come home cause thats what you are approving of.

Things are different this time around. If people openly vote for that madman, I just don't know.

[Dob Bole]

25. Oh I'll talk to them....I'm going to be rubbing it in next week!

Let's see...Pat Robertson said God told him Bush would win in a landslide. People seem to have a religious devotion to Bush...

I will free them by shattering their faith in Bush the Loser! We'll have an intervention!

[UTUSN]

26. Nope. (Re-posts from 2 dead threads)

Nov. 2: A matter of life and death


To the editor:


A few weeks ago, a slacker and I got into a two-hour discussion over politics. He was voting for Bush, but said he votes for the man, not the party.


His final flourish was to say, “Look, you know good and well that it doesn’t matter who wins: The day after the election, you and I are still going to be going about our business, no matter who wins.”


At that point a fellow in his mid-20s took over the shift. He was shipping to Iraq on Oct. 26. Although this particular individual is the cleanest-cut, hardest working, most helpful person you’d want to know, these things don’t matter for the purposes of the discussion. It could be anybody.


The slacker had smiled and smiled all the way through. Politics was not a serious topic for him. I said to him, “If this dude comes back dead in a box, if you ever see me again, don’t come up to me, don’t greet me, don’t talk to me ever again.”


Finally, a nerve was struck. He flared up angrily and said, “You crossed a line! You can’t blame me for that just for voting for Bush.”


I said, “Oh, yes I can. You’ve been taking this as a big joke. Politics is about serious things: This dude’s life or death. Old people’s medications. Other people making a living.”


Predictably, this was the end of that particular conversation.

[mmonk]

28. Yes

because I converted a few to vote Kerry. Its tough to stomach, especially the ones that blindly repeat the rightwing talking points and vitroil. But if you hang in there some of them realize they aren't informed like they thought they were. Those that realize this usually can be swayed on a national candidate such as Kerry (though they still might not give up a particular local repub candidate.

[Clobbersaurus]

29. ABSOLUTELY!

But only after Nov 3rd when we have this thing back in hand. We were shown no mercy in 2000 and I would like to continue the conversation after THIS election.

There will be no gracious winning - too many people my age have been killed by this war, too many families destroyed, too many civil liberties gone, too many protestors arrester or injured, too many voters denied their right.

THEY lost the right to have us be gracious winners a long time ago.

[prayin4rain]

30. God I hope not. I am sick of it. Unfortunately I do not seem to be able

to control myself.

[Snotcicles]

31. I can't help it but I shut them off when I find out their Repubs n/t

[Walt Starr]

32. anybody I find out who supports Bush this year is my enemy

I won't speak to them about anything, period!

[Patiod]

33. It depends where they get their information

I have a few Republican friends who have formed their opinions by attending school board meetings, from being deeply involved with city politics (which might move even a die-hard like myself to vote Republican in some city races) and other life experiences. I can learn from them, and I've found they are willing to listen to my point of view, as well.

But if people get their "news" from Faux, MSGOP or Rush, you can't even talk to them. My former next door neighbor got (literally) apoplectic (bright red, spitting) when he heard I was going door-to-door for Kerry. At one point I mentioned that I don't get cable "THAT'S WHY YOU DON'T KNOW THE TRUTH!!!" How do you talk to people like this? You don't. At a dinner recently, I had to yell "Okay, we obviously can't even discuss politics! No politics!!" It was sad, I thought.

But you can't give up on the non-rabid. Every so often, I introduce interesting, non-didactic books to my (Main Line matron/largely Republican) book club, and I've seen attitudes slowly begin to drift more to the middle. "Nickeled & Dimed to Death in America" and "A Hope in the Unseen" have done more to make these pampered folks understand issues faced by those who AREN'T middle class than hours of ranting by we few Dems in the group.

[camero]

36. Nope. Never.

The first words out of my mouth when they try will be "Shut up Fascist". Fucking Tory asswipes.

[Catholic Sensation]

38. Yes

discriminating against someone for their political beliefs is like discriminating against someone for their religious beliefs: disgusting.

[DemBones DemBones]

39. It's been my experience that Bush* voters want to tell others what to

think but are unwilling to listen to anyone else's ideas. They tend to be this way in all areas, not just politics, but I'm sick of listening to them. They are the aggressors
who send me political e-mails but don't want me to say anything that they regard as political.

I'm going to smile a lot after Kerry wins in a landslide! :7