I've been thinking about this "Civil War" thing....

[BiggJawn]

Stuff like, What form would it take? Who would fight who? What would be the government's roll?

Isn't "Civil War" just a little too strong a term? Would it not be more like a European-style footie riot? Hooligans out in the street fighting and killing each other over their "team loyalties"?

Where would the lines be drawn? Conservatives vs. Liberals? (that'd make Ann-Thrax happy until she realized Liberals aren't the pussies she thinks we are) ReTHUGlicans vs. Democrats? Rednecks who listen to Rush attacking anyone who doesn't live in a Mobile Home Community?

If something like this got started, how would it get stopped? The Army's all in Iraq. the Police have not been trained to jump in between 2 warring factions, so they'll be hitting everybody in the eyes with pepperballs, let Gawd sort them out.

I don't think there WILL be a "Civil War". Something more like "Krystallnacht" is what I envision, hoards of crazed ditto-heads swarming the streets attacking anyone who has a Kerry sticker or doesn't have a monobrow...

[progressiveBadger]

1. Then they'll be sorry they let the assult weapons ban expire.

[BiggJawn]

6. And that is a factor how?

So a Chinese SKS carbine is more dangerous with a bayonet lug and flash hider than without it? An AR-15 is less deadly with a full-length buttstock than a folding stock?

Sorry, I don't buy that "argument". With the exception of the 30-round magazine, most that "ban" was horse-shit window dressing to make the Volvo-and-Latte crowd think a real law had been passed. It only effected new manufacture or imports. Existing stocks could still (and did) change hands.

Nothing has changed in the law governing possession of a true automatic-fire (machine gun) weapon.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

22. Flash hider sounds somewhat handy. n/t

[BiggJawn]

23. Mmmmmm....COULD be.....

But *I* didn't say that! :evilgrin:

[goodboy]

2. Totally possible, "krystallnacht" is right on the mark...for those

with tin foil hats:

In November of 2000, time traveller John Titor predicted the beginnings of a "civil war" beginning in 2004...he said that it would be at everyone's doorstep by 2008...
"There is a civil war in the United States that starts in 2005. That conflict flares up and down for 10 years. In 2015, Russia launches a nuclear strike against the major cities in the United States (which is the "other side" of the civil war from my perspective), China and Europe. The United States counter attacks. The US cities are destroyed along with the AFE (American Federal Empire)...thus we (in the country) won. The European Union and China were also destroyed. Russia is now our largest trading partner and the Capitol of the US was moved to Omaha Nebraska."

http://johntitor.com/

[aquart]

5. Civil war depends on the governors of the states.

We don't have a state independent enough to secede. If Texas wants to, however.......

[BiggJawn]

7. S'Yeah, buh-BYE!

Let 'em leave.

[NoPasaran]

14. Give it a rest, yankees! n/t

[BiggJawn]

17. Hey, if you really left, you'd take Lance with you!

And that's a Bad Thing to some of us!

[global1]

3. Will This Civil War Happen .....

when "Johnny Comes Marching Home" - to the WH?

[Union Thug]

4. IF it were to happen..

we'd see divisions between class lines (with a significant number of idiots on the working class side acting as cannon fodder for their rich overlords). It wouldn't be pretty.

[rinsd]

8. Have you seen the Postman?

Okay not exactly Costner's best work but I found it interesting that a relatively small sized militia created enough chaos that the federal government was cuttoff from certain parts of the country and that governmental services broke down entirely leading to a everyone for themselves post apocalyptic situations sans nukes.

I find that scenario more plausible than secession or civil war between just two factions.

[dr.strangelove]

18. In the Postman the government was toppled

by an invasion. The small military faction rose to power and became the new government. It wasn't that the federal government was cut off from the pacific northwest, there was no federal government left.

It was an awful movie and far from Costner's best work.

This whole civil war thing is a bit nuts for me. I know in my heart that its just not possible. If anyone tried to kill any republican or conservative because bush wins the election, I'd protect them. I have several right wing friends who would do the same for me.

The VAST majority of the country does not hate citizens with the opposing political viewpoint. I don't hate them.
If anyone reacts with violence belongs in jail. I just don't see this happening in any significant numbers.

When Kerry wins, the right will merely start their wheels turning for 2008 and the mid term elections to keep control of the House and (I hope) try to regain the Senate (I know its a stretch but it possible we will take the Senate).

Anyway, sorry to come down hard on the Postman, but I'm a film geek and like to get even VERY BAD movies right.

[rinsd]

19. No sweat.....

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I have never seen the very beggining of that movie where I assume the invasion part was explained.

All I heard later in the movie referencing how things came to be was that it all began when the milita "starting trouble".

Oh well live and learn.

[bryant69]

9. I don't know about a Krystallnacht

The tricky part is how would they be organized? I mean we Democrats/Progressives/Liberals do a reasonably job of getting people out in the streets. But Conservatives haven't been as good at that (unless you count sending congressional aids down to Florida to stage an impomptu riot). On the other hand something like this--well it would take a certain amount of organization to pull off, and I just don't think they have the tools in place.

I could be wrong I suppose, and certainly there are huge resevoirs of resentment and hatred.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[RegexReader]

27. there are huge reservoirs of resentment and hatred

that are just waiting to be tapped. If there isn't a clear cut victory and it is thrown into the courts again, then the potential for a lot of low level non-organized violence is there. I don't see a civil war per se, but a lot of Reginald Denny(many beating one unarmed) and/or Bernard Getz(one shooter vs many attackers) scenarios in 1960's style rioting. I may just stay home on the day after, may do it regardless to nurse off the hangover!
:party:


RegexReader
¶

[Selatius]

10. I don't think there'll be civil war either

The Vietnam War tore this country apart. I have a terrible fear Iraq could become just as bloody over there, given all the horrible blunders and mistakes this White House has committed in the prosecution of this war, and the result is going to be tension and strife back stateside. It could be bad, but I don't think it will be any worse than what was seen during the Vietnam War. In my mind, that IS the worst case scenario.

There wasn't a bloody civil war then, and I don't think there will be one now. Most Americans have too much to lose if there was a war on American soil.

Too many people like to say that if the government stomped on them, then they would rise up and fight. It's easier said than done. It's easy to be lulled into the romanticized notion of revolution against tyranny, but the simple fact is that IT IS WAR. The only difference is that it won't be fought "over there." It'd be in our backyards. Our children will see the war with their own eyes, and the innocent will die along with the rest of us who choose to fight.

You see, when you decide to wage war against your own government for whatever reason or even against your own neighbors, you bring along everyone you love into that conflict, so you better make sure the decision was a prudent one. The price could be more than one could possibly bear. I'm not here to patronize anyone. That's not my intention, but I don't think this issue should be taken so lightly.

Violence should be the absolute last resort. If we feel the government is becoming destructive, then we should and ought to petition our government to address our grievances, and if it ignores us, then try again and again, if need be, but not war.

However, the fact that this issue is even discussed openly is a pretty sad commentary on how far this nation is straying.

[camero]

11. It'll be people v. cops

When it gets to be too much for cops, they'll call the few Guard and reserve troops in. Not many of these would show up since they are for the most part the people.

Small scale riots at first escalating to clashes with gov't troops. Frankly I don't think it will matter what's on the voter registration card but what neighborhood you live in.

[YNGW]

12. Tax Revolt

I don't see a civil war. I would be more inclined to believe we'll see a tax revolt before then. People are fed up with the government continually requiring more and more money with what appears to be no accountability. So much government waste. We've all complained about it for years now. Years and years. No matter who I talk to, either on the left, on the right, or somewhere in the middle, they all talk about having to pay too much in taxes. And it's not a matter of "So and so makes more and isn't paying enough". That's not even part of the conversation. They're just flat out tired of everyone having to pay too much. At least that's what I always hear, and being in sales, I talk to a wide range of people.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

13. There could be some "Kent State-style" shootings to quell protests

I really wish it doesn't get that far. It's going to take a new and energized Civil Rights movement, the like of which that has not been seen since the 60s to get things back to Democracy.

If Bush* steals, I wouldn't put it past them to create a "Krystallnacht" to demonize liberals and crack down on civil liberties.

If a "Civil War" does break out; who will win depends on who will intervene from outside. If Russia and China intervene, it will be in the favor of the Right; if Europe and Canada intervene, it will be in favor of the Center-Left.

[tnlefty]

15. Not looking for flames I'm just curious as to why you mention other

nations intervening. I guess I don't see how it would benefit or be in the best interest of a nation or nations getting involved.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

16. It's the worst possible scenario

Nations will be tempted to intervene due to vested interests, especially if the domestic military/militaries are weak. They may want to secure the U.S. nuclear arsenal for example, in case they fall into hands of others who may use them - if the opportunity presented itself.

Europe would have an interest in not letting the U.S. fall into Fascism and perhaps would intervene in that respect. Russia perhaps would rather see the U.S. as a suitably authoritarian state with little economic power, except concentrated in elites it wants to do business with.

[Pathwalker]

20. Or, we could have an...insurgency.

Ala Iraq. Large pockets of relative normalacy, with smaller areas of intense sporadic violence.

[Bucky]

21. This post is absolute lunacy. There won't be any civil war or even riots.

Sorry. People keep losing faith in democracy and democracy keeps proving your fears are wrong. I'm not saying it can't happen here, but that it is extremely unlikely to happen here and that riots won't break out suddenly among ordinary citizens.

Remember 2000? The only violence turned out to be orchestrated and carried out by Washington DC Republican operatives. If we can keep an eye on them, the people won't get violent and will accept the final vote tally. Trust the system that's kept you safe your whole life.

[BiggJawn]

24. Hey, now...*I* didn't say it was going to happen, I was...

...Asking for input on what seems to be a re-occuring theme.

My ESSO was telling me she say John Dean (remember him?) on the tube, and he was talking about a "possible" Civil War.

She couldn't remember what he said verbatim (she's ill with some kind of head-bug. Fat lot of good her "Pre-Ban" flu shot did, huh.) and I've seen that phrase being batted around these internets for the last week or so.

I remember 2000. That was 4 years and many millions of words worth of hot rhetoric from the RW AM hate Machine. I don't think people will be quit so civil this time, thus my "Krystallnacht" thesis.

[Cleita]

25. I am very wary of ammo buzzing by me and bombs going off

like in a real war. But, I think there is a place for a Ghandi type of civil war. Civil disobedience, sit ins, refusal to acknowledge officials in charge, like the Governor of California, who get their government seats under suspicious circumstances, etc..

I could see us also forming a shadow government complete with a new Constitution and elected officials. Then it would be up to them to challenge the present government. Again, lets leave the ammo at home, and do it by sheer forcefulness in numbers and voices. I wonder if Americans can do this like the Indians did in running the British colonists out of India?

[davsand]

26. There may be violence.

Especially in the early stages of it. Frankly, I don't think you can break it out by party or even economic status. I think the split will fall mainly between the people who actually believe in the idea of participatory democracy and the ones who just follow blindly some leader who promises them the world.

My personal expectation is that once the initial anger is expressed what you are going to see is a lot of "monkey wrenching" on the job.

Imagine what would happen if some guy "accidentally" throws the wrong switch and takes down the power grid for the entire eastern seaboard.

Now, go a bit further, and think about how screwed we'd all be if that kind of stuff was going on in banks and in the electronic banking industries.

Go a bit further and consider how dependent we all are on things like the rail systems, the mass transit systems and the shipping industries.

I work in a government office dealing with property taxpayer information every day. We are still using a paper trail, but imagine what a mess it would be in many of the metro areas where they are exclusively electronic for that kind of information...

I doubt a general strike would ever come to pass, but I sure do think it is possible that a lot of people would start to screw up at work a lot more often.

Just my two cents.


Laura