Is the ignorance of most Americans about foreign countries an

[KlatooBNikto]

intentionally self inflicted condition? I think this ignorance is to show that those countries are inconsequential in the overall scheme of things and they couldn't measure up to us anyway.So no price is attached to such ignorance and, as they say, money being our religion,they don't matter if they can't hurt us where it counts.All we have to do is look at the way Bush talked down to the diplomats at the U.N. on the run up to his splendid little war and you get the picture. A perfect symbol of arrogance and ignorance lecturing some of the most sophisticated and knowledgeable people on the planet!

[Crankie Avalon]

1. Ignore my novelty username a moment...

I was raised in an immigrant household in America where we spoke another language at home. In some ways, I have a "furriner's" outlook on America. My parents were by no means educated people when we arrived here, but my father can speak five languages, my mother three. I bring up the rear with only two, and I'm the first to graduate from an American college. My extra langauge was NOT learned as a consequence of any of my schooling, here.

Americans are almost unique among Western nations in having a population that is mostly monolingual. Frankly, some of us don't even speak that one language (English) particularly well.

Unlike Europeans and others, most Americans are very far away from foreign borders and we only border Canada and Mexico in any case. So, geography might have something to do with why some Americans are so clueless about different cultures. We just don't have much exposure to different peoples.

I don't disgree necessarily that many Americans are a naturally chauvinistic and ignorant sort of people. I'm just saying that our geography makes it easier for some of us to keep living in darkness rather than having real life experiences with people of different cultures that would open our minds. This reinforces itslef and makes too many in this country not even able abide our fellow Americans when they are non-white, non-heterosexual, etc.

I'm grateful I'm a New Yorker, where a lot of the above attitude can often be avoided.

[KlatooBNikto]

7. The fact that Canada is also far removed from other countries has

not deterred Canadians from becoming bi, tri and multilingual in many cases.Their knowledge of the rest of the world beats us hands down, IMO.Similarly, Mexico and Brazil.

We just think too highly of ourselves.Look at Cheney and you get the picture.

[Crankie Avalon]

31. Not really accurate...

...Canada has a special circumstance--the agitation of the Quebecois, who often make it a point of pride to NOT learn English and ONLY know French (which isn't even really French, but a regional patios that the actual French look down on, incidentally). Canadian government business is conducted in both English and French patois as a consequence, and Canadians who operate in close proximity to such circles have to know both languages. The people of "Heartland" Canada, however, are not much more inclined toward knowing languages than the people of our own. They even have a name for themselves: Hosers. Think Bob and Doug McKenzie if you're old enough to remember SCTV, and maybe you'll get the picture. What does "...in many cases" mean, anyway? We can say we have "many cases" here, too. I think in your eagerness for a little self-loathing anti-Americanism, you're just making stuff up to try and idealize our non-American neighbors.

Same with Mexico. Americans traveling there might be impressed that people who work in the hotel can speak English, but not every Mexican works in the tourism industry. When rank-and-file Mexicans come across our borders, we complain that they can only speak Spanish and don't learn English.

A big factor is probably our position as the most powerful nation in the world, something we DON'T share with our immediate neighbors. You put ANY people in that position, and after a few decades they are bound to become arrogant, not just us Americans. It takes work to be informed about the larger world, and it's much easier for so many of us to just say it doesn't matter rather than try to sit and down and learn about it. A person from a less dominant country (like Canada or Mexico, for starters) doesn't have this luxury, but would probably be just as ready to use it as we are if they did. People are people.

So, you're being too lazy and simple-minded when you say, "We just think too highly of ourselves." The French take a backseat to no one in thinking highly of themselves, yet they have as good a knowledge and relationship with the larger world as anyone else.

There are MANY reasons for why we are the way we are, not JUST thinking "too highly of ourselves." Our monolingualism is a contributing factor and I put it in because I knew other Americans (being mostly monolingual themselves) wouldn't. Knowing another language would work wonders for us, even just learning it here without going to the foreign nation. Picture rural folk in Mississipi suddenly being bi-lingual.

I've known plenty of "well-traveled" people who were still pretty ignorant and narrow-minded, but I've never known a multi-lingual person who was. After all, a few weeks holiday in a foreign landscape isn't really going to give a deep knowledge of the culture and it's insulting to think it would. You can send a donkey all over the world, but when it comes back it will still be a donkey. Being the type of person who has lived somewhere long enough to pick up the language is something else again. That's a real commitment.

However, others, like the English and Australians, have been able to overcome the monolingual handicap, so I concede it's not the only reason for why we are the way we are. Others here have made valid points, too, and I'm sure that, in the end, it's a combination of what has been said here and also a lot of other things.

[billyskank]

18. Not unique

Us English are just as bad. Hardly anybody speaks a second language.

[Crankie Avalon]

30. I did say...

..."almost unique," remember. The Australians, too. When you consider that England as an island is geographically separated from the rest of Europe and that Australia is also somewhat isolated as a separate small continent, it adds further weight to my original idea.

[Bandit]

27. I can speak Canadian pretty well.

:silly:

[no_hypocrisy]

2. In general, the American public is woefully ignorant about other countries

No more than a cursory nod to other countries is given in public school (remember filling out the maps, trying to identify the countries?). As a result, many public school graduates cannot name the years of RECENT foreign wars and which countries were involved, let alone which ones started them.

The media. On any given evening on any given network news program, I would estimate less than a minute is devoted to foreign reporting. One has McNeil and/or the BBC Nightly News on PBS for an option, true. But I'm talking about NBC, CBS, ABC, and yes, FOX. In the newspapers, readers are left blissfully ignorant about the true feelings of the residents of Britain, who have the second largest military contingent in Iraq. When there is a protest of thousands in Paris or London, a blurb or a paragraph is included deep within the pages and minimalized.

So, ignorance? It depends if you want to call it that if one cannot attain the information by just turning on the news or picking up the paper.

[Brewman_Jax]

3. Yes, it appears so

I can sum it up: When you're in America, you do things our way. When we're in your country, you do things our way.

I got to see the stereotypical ugly American during my travels in the Navy. While we were in Australia, one of my shipmates, an ugly american and a future freeper if there was one, complained, "What kind of country is this where I can't get a Coors Light?" I replied, "So, you traveled 9000 miles just to drink the same shit you can drink at home? Are you really that big an idiot or do you practice?"

Makes me wonder. :eyes:

BTW, VB rocks! Wish I could get it here. :beer:

[sam sarrha]

4. It is a deliberate program of propaganda to create that attitude and

the indifference as part of a plan to allow the shadow government to take over and destroy the CConstitution..

It took California 17 years to discover they had a 40% to 55% high school dropout rate and that 4 out of 7 HS graduates couldn't read and write well enough to fill out a job application.

during this time about 7,000,000 illegal immigrants entered the state while the government demanded they weren't taking any jobs away from the Californians... The CIA was selling 100's of Billions of dollars of Crack Cocaine in the state and spending 16 Billion dollars on the war on Drugs..aparently spent eliminating the Medellin Cartel so the favored Cali could have the lions share of the Looting of California. WE even invaded Panama when Noriaga put the Cali bankers, in charge of their money laundering, in jail. after the "war".. the head Cali banker was made president and cocaine trafficking thru Panama increased 500%..

It takes a lot of dumb citizens to allow that sort of crap to go ON and ON and ON and ON.........

we are the victims also of all this crap

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. I think our school system reinforces this

When I went through school, we got ONE YEAR of geography in eighth grade, and my teacher was actually a science teacher who had been dragooned into teaching it, so he knew nothing that wasn't in a our pitifully inadequate textbook.

I'm lucky in that my parents were interested in foreign countries and bought lots of books about world history and travel, but my classmates probably ended up pretty ignorant.

Of course, schools vary tremendously from town to town, but I found that when I was teaching Japanese, the first order of business was to make sure that the students knew where Japan is.

[mr blur]

6. Which might help explain...

some reactions to The UK Guardian's recent (whether misguided or not) "Write to an American Voter" campaign. The very fact that a national newspaper here could get thousands of people to do this emphasises the fact that we are interested in what happens in the rest of the world. We are perfectly aware that what happens in the US next week will have repercussions for all of us. The "Fuck off Limey Assholes and mind your own business" reactions from some of the right wing morons in the US simply underlines this attitude of God's-America-Against-The-World. I was emailing a friend in New York about this and he said, "You have to remember that these itiots probably have no idea where Europe is, nor do they care. As far as they're concerned, you don't even really speak English."

Reminds me of Homer Simpson's remark, "English! Why do I have to learn English, I'm never gonna go to England!?"

[KlatooBNikto]

9. Remember we are a country where one of our senators remarked

once ( during the Nixon era) that "mediocrities need representation too in the Supreme Court".

[annabanana]

8. I understand that during the heyday of the British Empire.......

the English were also considered grossly dull witted about the people they "ruled" over. I think that preeminence is PART of the equation, and a willfully inadequate public education system is the other part.

[KlatooBNikto]

11. Note how Bush says poor people must be lazy otherwise they wouldn't

be poor;this from a guy who would starve to death if he had to earn a living.

[mr blur]

17. Indeed - the British Empire

And I'm sure it was true - a combination of arrogance and, I'm afraid, the certainty that they were doing "God's work", bringing their God to people they considered needed it. We (Brits) forced the idea of Christianity onto native peoples all over the world - witness Australia where people who had been living there for 40,000 years were "civilised" for their own good. Their population was decimated because "we" thought we knew far more than they did what was "good for them". I'm afraid I see Bush and his cronies leading your country in that direction.

[billyskank]

20. Oh, America was doing that before Bush

When Britain lost its empire, America just took up the same role. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...

[annabanana]

21. We are knocking ourselves out to reverse the trend.

I believe that the world has finally gotten too small for this kind of arrogance to run unchecked.

[Cleita]

10. Americans don't get taught about other countries and cultures

in school like other children do in foreign countries. Most kids in foreign countries are taught geography and foreign languages starting at the grammar school level. There was a time when the ultra rich of southern California were importing domestics from Scandanavian countries. These were teenagers who saw it as way to travel around the world.

I was impressed at how fluently they spoke English and other European languages. It was required for them to learn languages in school and not just the wimpy translating paragraphs that college age kids get here, but actual conversational and written fluency.

I think we Americans could cut back on the emphasis on social activities somewhat and insist on more academic drilling in that time instead.

[KlatooBNikto]

13. Less emphasis on social activities, you say? Clean your mouth!

There is no way on God's green earth that is going to happen.This is especially true of our girls who insist on talking about everything except their academic work.If Dad or Mom say you got to turn off your Instant messenger or telephone or TV, it is instantly broadcast for all their friends about how dumb their parents are.

I won't hold out for miracles any time soon.

[Cleita]

14. If it takes a miracle, then no wonder our kids

are raised in ignorance. Too bad because that's how a half-wit gets to be President I guess.

[Heddi]

15. lack of foreign education, imo, plays a large part too

I graduated HS in 1994...not much has changed in the *gasp* 10 years that I've been out of public schools.

I was an honours student, etc, and didn't get the opportunity to learn a foreign language until 8th grade---and the only choice there was Spanish, and I wanted to take French, which wasn't available until 9th grade.

Of course, by the time you're 15 or 16 years old, pretty much every language center in the brain has been shut off compared to how it is at ages 2-7 (when you're more able to learn and grasp language).

I'm so jealous of the few friends I had that grew up overseas (parents in the USAF). They learned English, French and/or Spanish and then usually something else sprinkled in.

Recently, I worked with a woman from Romania. She spoke Romanian fluently (obviously) as well as English (she spoke it better than I did), as well as French, SPanish, Italian and a bit of Russian.

When I finally did take french, in addition to learning about the langauge, we learned about the culture, the country, the politics, etc. We learned a hell of alot more about France than we learned in 2 years worth of world geography as well.

The happiest day in my life was when the French CLass decided to have a field trip to France one summer. My mom took out a loan and basically begged, borrowed, and stole the $2500 it would take for me to go to France for 2 months.

But the trip fell through. I've still not been to France (Although I have been to the UK & Holland). I think it would have been tremendously beneficial for me, as well as the other 16-18 year olds that would have gone, to have been exposed to a different EVERYTHING early in life.

I got to go to Europe. Most of the people I went to school with never moved out of the neighborhood they were born in. I moved 3,000 miles away. they remained closed-minded and small-town. Not me. Fuck that.

[eissa]

12. I traveled through Italy

as part of a high school education trip (about 15 years ago), one of my classmates complained bitterly about having to pay a minuscule tip to the bathroom attendants. In a country as rich in culture and history as Italy is, she could do little but whine about the weather and the fact that people didn't speak "proper English."

I also agree that the lack of emphasis in fields such as geography leads many young Americans to simply assume that the world is not worth learning about.

[Heddi]

16. My Geography teacher in HS

had backpacked through Europe and throughout the rest of the world when he was a teenager in the mid-late 70's and early 80's. He frequently went as an adult as well with his wife and children.

When he taught us Geography, he didn't just teach "Here is Europe. Here is Africa". He showed us his own personal pictures of the country. He talked about political issues in those countries, what the culture was like, what the people were like.

Sadly, he only taught AP-level Geography. All the poor souls who were in general high school or basic-level classes got the same old ho-hum boring stuff about Geography.

Even kids in my class would often bemoan his slide-shows of photographs showing him and natives of the country, etc. He spent alot of time in the Nordic countries and had tons of pictures of him staying in private houses with people he met and asked if he could stay at their house for a few days.

He always said that you can never become a true American unless you understand the way the rest of the world operates, and that includes having a basic knowledge of the regions of the world, the countries of the world, and the people who inhabit those countries. You can never truly understand American culture until you understand cultures outside of our own. He constantly stressed that the most important thing that we, as citizens of the earth, can do, is to travel the world and experience things outside of our own comfort zone.

One story I remember---he went to Greece one year and went to a Spa. He was the only person there wearing clothes, and said that he felt very ackward sitting there in his shorts and everyone else was buck naked.

So a year later, he went back to Greece. Went to the same spa. This time, he remembered "when in Rome..er...greece, do as the greeks do" so he came out of the changing room wearing nothing--buck naked. Only this time, HE was the only person who was naked, and apparently nudity is okay during certain times of the day at this spa, and not at others. But he didn't know, and only found out once he was put into that situation.

I thank him for planting in me the seed of wanting to travel. The first time i went to Europe (when I was 22) was the absolute best time of my life. I went again a few years ago, and plan to go again in the next year, and hopefully more frequently than that once I get out of school.

The world is full of beautiful, interesting, and exciting people, places, and things. I don't see how anyone could be content just watching them on TV, instead of taking a few days and experiencing it yourself.

[eissa]

26. That last sentiment is so true

It's one thing to see these beautiful places in magazines or tv, and it's quite another to actually be there. My short trip to Europe was also one of the best experiences of my life and one I wish I could repeat. To take in all that wonderful history, meet so many interesting people, taste the foods and experience the culture is both exciting and humbling. Yet while taking in all these differences, we always came away with the basic similarities we all share no matter what country we live in: the simple desire to freely work, socialize, eat and live peacefully.

[mr blur]

19. I saw a post the other day

somewhere or other where some guy in Texas who proudly said that he had never been out of Texas (and didn't want to be) was sneering at England for our "non-existent health care" and "lousy cuisine". Considering that every high street here now has McDonalds and all the other fast-food crap that the US has exported around the world, this was almost too dumb to take offence at. Presumably "fine cuisine" consists of some slab of barely-dead cow accompanied by enough starch and carbohydrates to keep your average non-US family going for a week.

When I was on vacation in Florida a few years ago we took our son to what passed for a restaurant and a guy (preumably noticing that we "talked funny") asked me where we were from. I said "London" but I might as well have said "Venus". He looked stunned and asked, "But...but.. how did you get here?!" Er... on a plane. Anyone can do it - you get on in London and get off it in the US. People do it all the time. You should try it sometime.

[KlatooBNikto]

22. Did he follow up by asking do they have days and nights like we do?

[eissa]

24. Texans are weird

No offense to my fellow DUers who live there (and have my deepest sympathies), but they believe the world revolves around them (more so than the average American). I'm not surprised at the pride taken by the Texan for never leaving the state; one of my repuke co-workers has a father-in-law who lives in Texas who adamantly refuses to come visit his daughter and family here in California. Sad.

This is one of the main things that has always bothered me about our current "president." Being the child of privilege who had every opportunity to travel the world and learn so much, yet never had the inclination. His lack of curiosity about the world we live in has resulted in the isolated and maligned status our country is in today.

[mr blur]

28. I have heard...

that Bush had never been out of the country (had a passport) before he was President. Can this be true?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Not quite:

he went to China one summer when Poppy was ambassador. The word is, however, that he was mighty disappointed, because he was really looking forward to bedding Chinese women (sort of like his brother, who just had Asian prostitutes "show up" in his hotel room), only the Gang of Four was still in charge, and no Chinese women would talk to a foreigner except on official business. :eyes:

[lastliberalintexas]

23. "We're the greatest country in the world"

Or the "best" place to live or the "best" whatever. Someone growing up in the US hears these kinds of sayings all the time, regardless of whether the parents feel this way or not. The media, the churches, the schools, and our elected officials mouth these platitudes constantly, and people are indoctrinated whether they realize it or not.

It's only when someone is presented with information about the rest of the industrialized world- the universal healthcare coverage, the *real* pension/retirement systems, the worker training/protections- that one begins to wonder if the US really is the "best" anything (of the industrialized nations, anyway). But who is going to present Joe and Jane Sixpack with that information?


And I really don't think these problems are unique to the US. If we'd been around during the reign of the Roman or British Empires or any of the various Dynasties of the world, we probably would be able to find much of these same problems in those countries. "Absolute" power not only corrupts, it also breeds ignorance and arrogance.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. One of my former teaching colleagues took a semester off

to backpack around the world with his wife.

When he came back, he reported that wherever they went, they met Europeans, Australians and New Zealanders, even Israelis, but almost no other Americans. He found out that in many countries, there is the tradition of a "gap year," a year of travel after graduating from the university or between secondary school and university.

When he mentioned this to his students upon returning, they looked at him as if he was crazy.

And in trying to recruit students for study abroad in Japan (a very affordable program), I found that it was hard to get students interested, even if they came from families so affluent that they didn't need financial aid to attend a private school. They had excuses like, "My boyfriend/girlfriend won't let me" or "I don't want to miss football season."