Whatever you think of Eminem, on race and class issues, he's good.

[AP]

And he's worked really hard WITH other really hard-working black men to get where he is...

[UpsideDownFlag]

1. He's also a mysogonistic homophobe.

and that fact really, really can't be disputed. yes, he's made an awesome video in Mosh. but that doesn't mean he's JFK or something, people.

think back to his other videos, if you will. talking about how fucked up it is that a 'man and a man can elope'.

[meegbear]

3. My feelings exactly ...

EOM

[UpsideDownFlag]

4. thanks. it's been mildly annoying to see a group of Progressives like DU

gush over a guy like him.

[Robroy]

8. ChavezSpeaks might disagree..

n/t

[UpsideDownFlag]

10. indeed. he might. nt

[AP]

5. So are many people who are good on the issues of race and class.

It's sad. But it's true.

[K-W]

11. So are alot of working class Americans

or are only perfect people allowed to be democrats now?

[UpsideDownFlag]

17. "so are a lot of working class americans"

does that make it right? a whole helluva lotta dems used to be into segregation, too. times change.

[K-W]

19. Did I say it was right?

No, I didnt.

If you want to be in a party that doesnt have a place for people with with flawed attitudes, find a new party please, I'm not interested in your moral elitism. I hate homophobia and mysogony with a burning passion. It doesnt mean I write off all people who have those attitudes.

[UpsideDownFlag]

22. it's not moral elitism. i was just pointing out the truth.

many people here seem to have forgotton, conveniently, the outrage that he caused amongst progressives over the past few years. try talking to GLAAD about eminem, and see what they think.

[K-W]

25. Nobody forgot anything.

Most of us are just rational enough to understand that well intentioned people can have flaws. Nobody is ignoring the flaws, there is just no good reason to sit around debating eminem's homophobia right now because there is no reason in the world to be discussing it, his homophobia is not currently an issue of any strong contention. He has expressed homophobic attitudes, he has been roundly critisized for it.

Move on.

[jdj]

32. or that immature idiots can grow up.

If he turns around and makes another mother-raping wife killing album, I'll be surprised.

I'm not paying for his work, so I'm not voting for it.

I love Mosh, because someone needs to reach these kids, and he and Puffy are working really hard to do it, but Puffy has a production company and clothing line, he's gonna clean up no matter what. What Marshall Mathers is doing right now could lose him about half of his fan base.

I'm lukewarm on whether his attitudes toward women and gays have changed. Time will tell. I think he was working through child abuse issues in an innappropriate way that touched alot of nerves, mine included. But if he abandons the misogyny and homophobia, there go alot of his fans, you can tell my reading the comments on the MTV "you tell us" section that alot of those kids are P.I.S.S.E.D. about mosh, they thought M.M. was in their corner, and now they are abandoning him. One said he "doesn't have anything left to say." Pathetic really, when it may be that he is just beginning to speak.

WHAT he says is beside the fact when it comes to his talent as a wordsmith, and in that way he is near unmatched. It's awful as a poetry fanatic to hate someone's message yet be awestruck by their artistry, which is where I have been with him since I first heard some of his work. I think it is such a blessing he's using his God given gift for good, and drawing more people to listen to rap, where there is just unbelievable creativity going on right now, I mean where else are people trying to do 4 syllable rhymes like preposterous/rhinocerous (from Biggie Smalls) and climbing over each other to have the tightest and cleanest rhymes...it gave me hope again that humanity really continues to have an innate hunger for art. So much Eminem's work is like a beautiful painting to the ears, if you just listen to the sounds and don't define the words. If he keeps this up, I may actually allow myself to buy a CD of his one day.

[Soth]

36. Exactly!

I really hate misogyny and homophobia, but it seems to me that Eminem is changing. As I've mentioned, despite what he's rapped he has acted in ways that differ drastically (his defense of a gay man in 8 Mile, his hugging of Elton John, etc.).

I think Eminem may really be coming into his own as a rapper with a reason. He's been working out personal issues in his last few albums, but I think that he won't stick to that, because he understands (or I hope he understands) that artists must evolve.

In the end, only time will tell.

[jdj]

43. I hope that someday he will clarify his message about women

and about his abuse issues, if there was some sexual abuse there, cause that homophobia usually comes from repressed homosexuality or abuse at the hands of the same gender.

There is a time when a woman/mother is great big, and a child is tiny and women do brutalize and neglect children. I hope he can get to a point where he can give art to this in a non-retaliatory fashion, because it is worth talking about and helpful to children who are going through it if they have artistic empathy from a public figure, and that may be why he has so many die-hard fans, aside from his artistic talent, if he expressed rage they couldn't articulate. But that hatred is something you don't want to justify to carry forward into future relationships and let it ruin one's life, that isn't a solution.

[AP]

48. There's another issue too. It used to be, up until the early '70s, that...

...all the separate left movements -- race, class, gender, labor, sexuality, environment, etc. -- realized that even when they were focussing on different things, they all wanted the same thing: the downward and outward flow of cultural, economic, and political power (and not it's concentration in a few hands at the very top). White lesbians and black panthers knew they'd be better off if both won their battles, and there wasn't much cross fighting.

One of the great accomplishments of the right after the early '70s was figuring out ways to drive wedges through all the left movements. They pitted labor agains environmentalists, and even today try to turn environmentalists into anti-immigration racists. They pit gays against blacks (with religion).

So, when people here say they can't respect Mosh, there are RW'ers who are licking their lips, because that's exactly what they want to happen. Pre-early '70s, people on the left would have thought it was crazy to assume Eminem wasn't an important part of the left movement. How far we've come!

(And if you don't believe me, read the Twilight of Equality--http://www.beacon.org/catalogs/f03/duggan.html.)

[Dorian Gray]

91. I haven't weighed into this Eminem argument before now

But I would like to add what I think, which is really quite simple. I've always enjoyed Eminem's rapping ability. But, I like Rap music in general. I look at it as Urban Poetry, and I think that there are some really skilled artists out there.

Sadly, many of the rappers tend to be misogynistic and racist in their own right. But, I think that many of the lyrics that shocks so many people is written artistically. There have always been artists whose primary goal was to shock people. The shock, actually, may be to open up discourse and dialogue amongst people.

But, really, having said that, I don't think that it's necessarily a right wing technique to divide and conquer all the left movements. With each movement, the primary goal may, in fact, vary in the extreme from the goals of another. And prejudices exist within every society. Perhaps we see it manifested more in right wing organizations and households, but it is not exclusive to those households, either. Sadly, after 9-11, groups that were constantly racially profiled in crimes were also willing to racially profile Muslims when it came to flying on airplanes. And it is true that many minorities, even those with many similarities (for instance within the Hispanic groups: Dominicans and Puerto Ricans), often do not get along and espouse much hatred for each other.

What causes this? Why?

I can understand why people don't want to listen to Eminem. He's had some VERY violent and hate filled raps on his previous albumns. If people do not like him, I don't consider that a win for the Republicans. (Or Conservatives.) Rather, I think it's important to remember that we all have different tastes, and what may not offend one person may really offend another. I appreciate MM's political statement now, and I am happy that I his music is evolving. It's amazing for me to watch. But, if other people don't want to embrace him, I don't understand why that is a problem! Let them dislike him and some of the statements/actions he's presented to the public in the past! It is their right.

That doesn't mean, however, that he should be persecuted and reviled by all in the Democratic Party, either. Just as I understand why some do not appreciate MM, I hope that those can appreciate why I and others do. In his genre, we believe that he's actually quite talented, and I hope that he's experienced personal growth to go along with his musical growth.

[bpilgrim]

12. kids change

as they grow up... he's certainly heading in the right direction ;->

peace

[frank frankly]

18. bingo, billyp.

i don't know much about this guy, but that video was tremendous. it will help, i think.

if he is anti-gay, well, i can only hope he evolves.

[nodehopper]

24. he has three performative identities

Eminem, Slim Shady and Marshall Mathers

Slim Shady is like a souped-up aggro version of American Male tropes, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the homophobia and misogyny performed by that alter ego is critical, but it's definitely more complex and interested than just "oh, he's a misogynyst homophobe."

He is a very clever performer, and I find the difference between his narratives and his alter egos interesting, rather than falling into the trap of letting the most purposefully inflammatory one definte his entire ouvre for me.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

31. thank you for pointing that out

i find sometimes his approach is similar to mark mark knopfler of dire straits a good example is that "money for nothing" song.

"See the little faggot with the earring and the makeup
Yeah buddy that's his own hair
That little faggot got his own jet airplane
That little faggot he's a millionaire"

knopfler is portraying someone else in this song as he often does, writing lyrics through the lens of someone elses eyes.

[jdj]

34. that song came from a actual conversation knopler overheard

in an appliance store.

Those are quotes.

And everyone knew it at the time.

Bad comparison.

edit: also the "little faggot" being referred to in the song is Knopler himself, he is the guitar player, the one that has his own jet airplane and is a millionaire by this appliance store guy's standards. Knopler was quoting a man who was putting Knopler himself down, that is why it is funny, it is his own profession as a musician that is being criticized. All the people or groups that have fallen victims to M.M.'s poion pen are social "other-figures" there is no self-satire involved. I really don't think it's worth arguing about since M.M. seems to be moving beyond this.

[sandnsea]

37. Perfect comparison

Eminem does exactly that, most of the time. That and express the rage in the darkest places of the human mind.

And truth be told, most straight people don't like being hit on by gays and if there were a little more honesty and respect of varying feelings, we'd get alot further in this country. I'm a "crack it open" kind of person, maybe that's why I've never been bothered by Eminem.

[jdj]

47. I'm a queer, so please tell all your straight friends not to hit on me!

No, it is not a good comparison, once again Knopler himself was being called a "little faggot" this is tongue in cheek repetition of comments about his own profession, when MTV first came on air.

When M.M. said "little faggot" he meant little faggot, that one, over there, not himself. I want M.M. to tap into his rage and articulate the why of it, not just repeat tracks of women being brutalized over and over without any articulation as to why the artist feels the way he does. M.M. is smarter than that.

Back to my subject line, your snipe about gay people hitting on you is fucking offensive. Do what I have done ALL MY LIFE, deal with it. I suppose it doesn't bother you when straights hit on you?

[DrWeird]

54. No, I think its a valid comparison.

Because, again, Eminem is rapping from the perspective of an alter (villianous) ego, and seems clear to me that people who actually listen to it are just as aware of it as with the Dire Straits, or when Jimi Hendrix sang about shooting his wife, or Jim Morrison singing about how he wanted to kill his father and rape his mother.

[sandnsea]

63. Here's the deal

I don't like to be "hit on" by anybody, and those who do it need to STOP. See there? That's the whole point. Until somebody stands up and says STOP, there's going to be problems. I don't understand why gays can't hear that, just like I don't understand why some straight males can't hear it either. It's not tough to know when you're being given the cold shoulder, or when somebody never showed any interest in the first place.

And, as a white person who has heard this shit all my life, behind closed doors; I'm glad another white person is finally telling America exactly the way white people are. I'm sick of the phony face of "tolerance" when it's the furthest thing from the truth. A combination of saying the ugly things white people really say, AND acknowledging some of it is honest emotion, AND expressing everybody's deepest thoughts that they deny; put it all together and that is more MM than the simplistic "homophobe, misogynist" that totally elminates any possibility of discussion at all.

[DrWeird]

75. Alright, I myself am still not getting it.

Where is this "gay people hitting on us poor innocent straight people" thing coming from? I mean it's like having a discussion on race relations and out of the blue somebody starts talking about all these black men going around raping all the white women.

[sandnsea]

85. Let's not tell the truth

Okay, I'll stop. I've not heard every single straight person I have ever known say they don't like being hit on by gay people. Door is closed, we just won't tell the truth about what people say behind other people's backs. Put on a happy face. :)

[secular_warrior]

94. Well then you should love the conservatives

The conservatives don't mince words about their true feelings. They'll say they hate you straight to your face. In a way that is better than the hypocrisy of white liberals who claim to believe deeply in and ideology where all are equal and bigotry isn't tolerated, but who in reality make exceptions for one of their own. You guys like him, so he is ok with you. There is a glaring double standard.

Mathers' hatred goes far beyond what he says in his art. That is yet another excuse white libs use to defend him. Many artists take on characters and paint disturbing pictures. That is not the issue. Outside of his music, Mathers has displayed that he really does dislikes gays, women and minorities - and dislikes any criticism whatsoever of those hateful views. In fact, he delights in profiting off of his hatred.

His anti-Bush statement is good if it brings in more voters than it alienates - but Mathers is still not on my side or doesn't speak for me, and neither do most whites - liberal or conservative.

[Runcible Spoon]

76. WTF???

Well I'm an *ahem* "endowed" woman and I don't appreciate beer swilling heteros hitting on me all the time. Truth be told, lesbians hitting on me are much more polite and flattering. You don't speak for everyone.

[sandnsea]

87. Please see #63

Where I said exactly that. And yes, women don't tend to be as big of pigs as men, regardless of their sexual orientation.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

73. ok

but what i was getting at as previous posters have mentioned is that many times an artist's lyrics are based on a character that they are portraying through the lyrics.

as for the dire straits song are you positive that these comments mark was using were exlcusively about him? he doesn't seem like he quite fits the description of wearing and ear ring and make up, sound more like they were talking about more flamebouyant performers.

edit: "Dire Straits frontman Mark Knopfler was once asked about the origin of the line "Get your money for nothing and your chicks for free" from the band's classic song "Money for Nothing."

"That came from a big meathead working in an electrical appliance store in New York," Knopfler recalled. "He was watching MTV while moving boxes. I spied on him through a little gap in the microwave section, and the lines he was coming out with were so classic that I had to write them down as fast as possible! He actually said things like, 'What's that? Hawaiian noises?' and 'Maybe get a blister on your little finger.' And then he said, 'That ain't workin'' - little did he know!"

http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=17007

[MsTryska]

81. You honestly don't think there's any self-satire in

eminem's work?

have oyu actually listened to any of it?



The bit about him and the record exec is classic self-satire.


the entire song Stan is a sad bit of self-satire.


most of his work is rife with self-irony.

[secular_warrior]

98. Satire is the excuse he uses to spew hate and not face the consequences

just like many of the radio shock jocks do. They spew hate then say "Oh, we were just joking. It's entertaiment."

There are indeed many artists of all genres who take on characters and tell ugly stories as part of their art. That isn't the issue. Mathers has confirmed by his own personal words and behavior to really feel that way, and to be using the "satire" excuse as a way to innoculate himself against charges of bigotry.

[MsTryska]

106. I categorically disagree.

but then again i've been following his career for a while.



What i don't get is this - people protested his lyrics and his alleged homophobia and misogyny from his very start. he's since changed and is actually pouring his energy in a more positive direction. yet people aren't satisfied.

so are y'all really working for change, or is the status quo more comfortable because it allows you to bitch about the status quo?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

30. i don't think that is really what he is saying

Of course they gonna know what intercourse is
By the time they hit fourth grade
They got the Discovery Channel don't they?
"We ain't nothing but mammals.." Well, some of us cannibals
who cut other people open like cantaloupes
But if we can hump dead animals and antelopes
then there's no reason that a man and another man can't elope

can you explain how he is saying that it is fucked up it is that a "man and a man can elope".

i am not trying to be confrontational i just see it differently. it appears to me that he is saying that he sees no reason that a man and another man can't elope.

[jdj]

51. antelope/cantaloupe...mammals/animals/cannibals

I love this, I can't beleive people can read stuff like this and say he has no talent. If this feminazi can appreciate that, then people should at least give him props for his talent.

seems to me he's saying that if war is okay why isn't homosexuality? I may have it wrong, got to go to work...

[American Tragedy]

80. You mean his skill with a rhyming dictionary?

Sorry, this just isn't my kind of thing at all, I guess I have little basis in commenting. I've tried to like it before, but I just don't get it.

[mark414]

92. yeah...that's kind of obvious

cause if you did get it, you would know that em doesn't use a um...rhyming dictionary

hip hop is so much more intricate intelligent and balls out amazing than way too many people will credit it for

[IA_Seth]

96. Try to do it, then you'll get it ....n/t

[MsTryska]

82. actually what he's saying...

and sorta poking fun at the right wing with this is:

We ain't nothing but mammals.." Well, some of us cannibals
who cut other people open like cantaloupes
But if we can hump dead animals and antelopes
then there's no reason that a man and another man can't elope


we're all human beings, some of us like eating dead people, others like bestiality, and you're tripping over two men getting married?


a little bit deeper than "using a rhyming dictionary"

[cheezus]

45. yep, if bad people do good things, fuck 'em

oh yeah, and people never change either, so don't bother giving any second chances.

[DrWeird]

46. Well, sure, if you take things out of context.

:eyes:

[Hutzpa]

88. I sensed a Personal dislike for Em........Why?

[mark414]

90. he doesn't say that

he says:

"Yeah, I probably got a couple of screws up in my head loose
But no worse, than what's goin on in your parents' bedrooms
Sometimes, I wanna get on TV and just let loose, but can't
but it's cool for Tom Green to hump a dead moose
"My bum is on your lips, my bum is on your lips"
And if I'm lucky, you might just give it a little kiss
And that's the message that we deliver to little kids
And expect them not to know what a woman's clitoris is
Of course they gonna know what intercourse is
By the time they hit fourth grade
They got the Discovery Channel don't they?
"We ain't nothing but mammals.." Well, some of us cannibals
who cut other people open like cantaloupes
But if we can hump dead animals and antelopes
then there's no reason that a man and another man can't elope"

it's really easy to take his lyrics out of context. you can take anything out of context and make it look really bad. bill o'reilly did the same thing when he tried orchestrating that pepsi/ludacris boycott.

[RandomKoolzip]

2. I'm sticking with Boots Riley.

If I NEED to hear a white rapper, I'll go to El-P or the AntiCon guys.

Eminem is just pure corporate hype. There's a term for this: "cool hunting."

[peekaloo]

14. Boots Riley!!!!!

:thumbsup:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. just because i agree with him on the one issue

he is no friend of my cause in general!

[UpsideDownFlag]

7. i'm having throwbacks to Pat Buchanan threads...."He was against the War"

yay, he's our friend, right?

[AP]

9. He has ALWAYS been good on race & class issues. And the video is about

race and class.

The problem is that DU'ers didn't understand his argument about race and class until they saw it in the context of being against the war.

That's on DU and not on Eminem.

[K-W]

13. Did you just compare Eminem to Pat Buchanan?

One man is a rapper who while clearly very liberal hangs on to the mysogeny and homophobia that was par for the course when he was growing up. The other is a politician who has worked for years to try and destroy our government and way of life.

It is not an apt comparison, more of an absurd comparison.

[UpsideDownFlag]

16. no, i'm comparing the comments regarding them to one another

[K-W]

20. So you are comparing statements about two people who arent like each other

what a valuable comparison you got there.

[UpsideDownFlag]

23. yes.

both positions are, in my humble opinion, foolish. I'll applaud his Mosh video, but that doesn't mean i have to approve of the majority of his other music/attitudes.

[K-W]

26. If you dont want to stand by your post, fine.

But stop pretending you didnt just start a new thread to compare Eminem to Pat Buchanan.

And honestly if you think we need a seperate thread to hear about how you dont approve of everything Eminem has ever done, I wonder if you dont have unrealistic ideas of how important your opinions are.

[UpsideDownFlag]

27. i started the thread, not to compare the two men. i've said this before.

i thought it was interesting how the two had been similarly compared in "are they our friends, now" threads en perpetuity.

[K-W]

28. You did compare them whether you intended to or not.

And if that was not your intention please edit your post to remove the obvious implied comparison.

And it isnt particularly interesting at all unless of course you think there is some comparison between the two men. But you are claiming now that you arent comparing the two men, making the entire issue decidedly uninteresting.

[Bridget Burke]

58. He backed off on the Robertson/Eminem comparison.

Deleted the opening statement, so the moderator locked the thread.

He made a mistake & wants to be forgiven. But Eminem must always be disdained because of his past.

[AP]

61. Bridget, you're a smarty pants.

Good point.

[Bridget Burke]

72. Thank you.

I do what I can.

[puddycat]

15. at least for the moment, I will accept him as my brother

to paraphrase Shakespeare's Henry V: anyone who sheds his blood with me to defeat our common enemy is my brother.

[nodehopper]

21. word.

[w4rma]

29. I am in full agreement. (nt)

[hiphopnation]

33. What's the point of disputing personal taste?

None, IMHO.

You like him? Great!! :thumbsup:

You don't? I understand.

Move along...nothing to see here...

[jdj]

35. I think it is more that people are alarmed by hate speech.

and that M.M. seems to be developing a broader social understanding.

Or not. I don't know.

[hiphopnation]

40. "On race class issues, he's good"

Just seems highly debatable and, more importantly, an issue that few people can come to a consensus on. It's so subjective.

I wouldn't say that with the release of "Mosh" he's displaying a broader social understanding in the least bit. Many would take issue with that and, unfortunately, there's no way of proving one side or the other so the argument becomes somewhat moot.

Eventually it seems the Em threads dissolve into the guys music and his lightening-rod of a career. Some dig it. Others don't. To each their own.

[AP]

41. "no good way of proving"? You can make an argument.

What's your argument?

[The Great Deceiver]

44. I'm not making one.

You're baiting. I'm not biting.

[AP]

50. I'm not baiting. I'm pointing out that there isn't an argument.

And if you're posting under two different names, I'm pointing out that you don't have an argument.

[AP]

42. The point is that he represents somethign much bigger than personal taste.

And it's important to understand what's going on with him.

If you can't see that Eminem is making an argument about how the world works (and doesn't work) than you're missing out on one of the best things about being alive in the 21st century.

[hiphopnation]

49. What is it that he "represents", pray tell?

Since you're so close to the man and the subject, please enlighten me since I'm woefully "missing out on one of the best things about being alive in the 21st Century." Yikes!! Strong statement from someone who knows me only from an internet discussion board.

[AP]

52. In Detroit, there are three huge corporations.

One was the biggest corporation in America for years until WalMart took the mantle. Those three corporations have a fascinating history of creating wealth and taking wealth in Detroit, in Michigan, and in the world.

In Michigan, there are fascinating problems of race, urban decay (read ANY Jeffrey Eugenides book if hip hop really isn't your thing, hiphopnation), class, opportunity, etc.

Eminem sings about ALL those things. He puts a mirror up to the world he grew up in and tries to reflect it back to his audience. He's telling a story about how the world works. I think what he says is really interesting. You don't have to like the music to get something from it.

This is so much more than personal taste. And I'm glad I live in a time when books, movies, TV and music (cultural representation, generally) is so available to so many people. It makes life a lot more interesting on so many more levels than just 'taste.' And I think making arguments and trying to understand on a deep level what's going on with cultural representations makes life and the movies, books, TV and music much more rewarding.

If you just want it to be about taste, go for it. But you're missing out on the best parts of it.

[hiphopnation]

57. You're preaching to the choir

here. I happen to think most of the stuff he's put out is highly profound and stinging. As an artist and performer myself, however, I'm always highly suspect of anything that is scooped up by the great corporate machine and redistributed out to the masses, no matter what I think of the product personally. Mass-marketed products tend to loose a feeling of authenticity for me.

That being said I think Em has used his spotlight very wisely and put out some amazing music in the process. I'm a fan.

But politically speaking, issues of race and class I think it's debatable what he's done to advance these issues in the national public discourse. At least some folks would take issue with the sentiment, as evidenced in this thread. Again, as a product is mass-marketed it tends to bet "defanged" in a way that it looses it's potency. Only time will tell in this case if Em really has done his part to advance the causes that you think he does. It's not something we'll be able to tell in a few years; more live a few decades.

But it struck me as a highly debatable and subjective statement to say "on issues of race and class, he's good." You didn't seem to make your point very strongly in the OP.

Nice swipe but I love hiphop of all types though I am far from an authority on the subject and don't claim to be so.

[sangh0]

59. hhn23 makes a good point AP

But it struck me as a highly debatable and subjective statement to say "on issues of race and class, he's good." You didn't seem to make your point very strongly in the OP.

I'm not a big fan of hiphop (though that's been changing lately) and I know practically nothing about Eminem, so I can't comment on the accuracy of your conclusions regarding him and his message. However, I would like to hear more about your take on what Em's message is, how he his art puts the message forward, and why it's "good". Your OP doesn't really go into that, and I think it would help the discussion if we understood more about Em's message.

[AP]

62. Check the archives for more that I've written about Eminem.

I think I wrote a lot about 9 Mile when it came out and I've written about Eminem in the past.

I also wrote a little in the post below which starts "In Detroit..."

My mind's focussed on Mosh now. If anyone wants to talk about Mosh, I'm up for that.

I got about 20 minutes more before I have to get back to work. So let's go:

Mosh is incredible. It makes an argument about criminality that reverses the stereotype. The people on the streets aren't the criminals. The people in the uniforms and in the WH are.

[hiphopnation]

67. 9 Mile???

Oh yeah, hiphop is really "your thing".

[AP]

68. Oops. 8 mile.

[sangh0]

69. Haven't seen Mosh yet

but your brief description matches what I've heard from those who support Em. Their argument is that Em reverses roles a lot and that the offending statements are coming from the characters in his story, and are not an expression of his own beliefs, but expressions of the things he opposes.

But I'll look for you comments in the Archives. Thanks

[SidDithers]

102. sangh0, find the video and watch it..

I've found myself agreeing much of what you've posted over the years, so I'm interested in what you'll think of the Mosh video. Whatever Eminem's past, I found the video a powerful statement for the people to take back a government and a process that is rightfully theirs.

Sid

Edit to add link: http://www.gnn.tv/content/eminem_mosh.html

[AP]

60. I don't think it's good to measure Eminem by whether he advances the issue

He's done his part by REPRESENTING the issues. If people want to follow, it's up to them.

I guess that's the philosophical other side of the coin which has commercial success as its heads.

The Clash were great even if they didn't bring an immediate end to Thatcherism, and I'm not blaming the Clash for George Bush's election.

Furthermore, if you're suspect of anything that gets commercial success, why are you measuring eminem by whether society follows him and moves to the left on race and class issues? Isn't it enough just to do your thing as an artist and send it out there for people to ponder?

[hiphopnation]

64. You're putting words in my mouth.

why are you measuring eminem by whether society follows him and moves to the left on race and class issues? Isn't it enough just to do your thing as an artist and send it out there for people to ponder?

If it's not clear to you from my last post that I fully support an artist putting out whatever the heck they want and leaving their listeners to figure it out, then I'm not sure what else to say. Furthermore YOU are the one who's measuring Em by whether he advances issues, not me. Let me remind you of your OP: "On issues of race and class, he's good." You still haven't defined what you mean by "good" but, seeing as this is DU, I assume you meant "a champion for a lefty cause". Was I wrong?

You're obvioulsy not interested in fleshing out your original point or in engaging in a meaningful discussion.

[AP]

70. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you say (1) you suspicious of anything that

is commercial, and (2) you'll judge Eminem by whether he advances the issues -- ie, whether people folow him.

I'm just saying its interesting to think about Eminem on many more levels than "taste." Whether he changes society isn't necessarily the most important level.

I'm willing to talk about Mosh. My last post said one of the many things I think about Mosh. You want to take it from there or do you want me to write an essay?

[hiphopnation]

71. No.

See the last sentence of my last post.

[AP]

93. I'm very interested.

Let's do it.

[secular_warrior]

38. Eminem used black folks to get to where he is.

Eminem is only where he is because the corporations needed a rap/hip-hop version of Elvis.

The white upper-middle class controls everything in this country, and Eminem was supply to their demand. It is much easier to sell a white rapper to the security moms and their kids than it is to sell a black rapper. Now he is touted as the most revolutionary hip hop artist ever by many white liberals who are blind to their own arrogance.

Eminem espouses bigotry and violence, but white liberals defend and make excuses, because after all he's one of you. It's an attitude that can only be explained by the rationalization "He's a good boy. He doesn't really mean those nasty things he says." You defend him because he is one of you, just as the conservatives defend their Ashcrofts and their Lotts.

As a member of the non-white underclass, for me the enemy isn't conservative or liberal - it's white hypocrisy.

[AP]

39. He works with black people. He didn't use them. Dr Dre isn't white.

[Bridget Burke]

56. But only the elite have access to PC's

You're here, so you must be one of the elite.

[rockydem]

66. funny thing how he's accepted by the black hip-hop community

eh?

The same community that scorned that poser Vanilla Ice.

They know REAL TALENT when they see it.

And they also know him as someone WHO PAID HIS DUES and WOULDN'T GIVE UP out of love for the artform.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

74. that is bunk and totally not true.

i am waiting for your mc veterans for truth add to come out......

[mark414]

77. hm, that's funny

cause last night, watching a couple of the new eminem videos, my black roommate said pretty much exactly the opposite of what you said

you're dead wrong about eminem, plain and simple

[MsTryska]

86. D-12 ain't white either. nt

nt

[m berst]

95. that's it

Well said and accurate. There needn't be any controversy over this statement and no call for anyone to defend the artist. Sure it is the Elvis phenonmenon repeated. No news there, and no cause for anger, it is just the way it is.

Thanks, it needed to be said.

[IA_Seth]

97. WTF

Man, you are so far off it almost aint worth responding to...

almost

What do you know about em's life? He never USED any african-american anybody, he was in the game (like everyone else) since day 1, and if anything white folks have a harder time gettin into the rap industry than anyone else.

Ignorant mo fo's with their ignorant ideas on why someone is popular with a segment of culture they know NOTHING about is repuke territory. Try to come up with artful rhymes the way em does, then maybe you will realize he IS talented.

[m berst]

99. not about the artist

"The white upper-middle class controls everything in this country, and Eminem was supply to their demand. It is much easier to sell a white rapper to the security moms and their kids than it is to sell a black rapper. Now he is touted as the most revolutionary hip hop artist ever by many white liberals who are blind to their own arrogance."

Elvis was a talented man. Which artists are promoted and which are not has nothing to do directly with talent, however. The post IMHO was about the culture and how the corporations reinforce regressive social attitudes. We have a long history of the recording industry searching for and then promoting white artists to captalize on music that originated in the African American community. To say that is not a slam on any particular artist.

Racism as discussed here is an institutional and social issue, not one of individual good guys and bad guys.

On edit - the original post said "race and class issues" so that is what people are discussing.

[secular_warrior]

103. Being talented isn't the issue.

There are many talented hip hop artists out there, and Eminem is certainly not the best or even revolutionary. He is Elvis of this generation - a white boy who sang the black music, who was far more easy to sell than a black boy singing the black music.

Maybe he should be top selling rapper. But he is definitely not the messiah of hip hop or black music that the corporations and the suburban elite have built him into.

It's funny being lectured about "a segment of culture you know nothing about" by a bunch of mostly white, suburban liberals.

The reason why I scare you people is because I'm a minority who knows both sides of the game, and who can see the hypocrisy and how the white suburban elite -both conservative and liberal- are responsible for the permanent non-white underclass.

[flvegan]

100. Guess what

Damn near every rapper espouses bigotry and/or violence. You can read it in the liner notes.

It's sad that you hate him because he's white. He's not "one of you" thank you very much, he's one of us. I disagree with lots of things that lots of my colleagues believe, but in this fight, this one against Bush and his bullshit regime, we're all family.

Deal with it, and don't let your own hatred blind you. There's way too much of that around anyway.

Hey, BTW, I'm sure that folks like Dre and Aftermath haven't made a dime off MM, right? I don't know the last rapper that gave props out like Eminem does to Dre. But sure, he "used" them...

[m berst]

101. no hatred

Not that I can see in the post you are replying to. What are you seeing?

[info being]

53. His mis-placed anger is now placed where it should be

The kid grew up.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. Anybody with a name like M&M displays who is audience is.

And, I'm about 40-50 years past it.

[myahquote]

65. He got a good message on Corporate owned MTV

As to the Gay issue I thought he had addressed some of the incorrect wording he has used, via his movie and some statements. But true in order to shock and get a laugh he will say things that shouldn't be said.

But overall he's been saying a positive message about things that aren't discussed. The White mainstream media and pundits have a harder time executing their destructive practice of discounting these views as as merely someone who blames others, because he is white and pointing out the disparities in race and between rich and poor.

The gnn website has the below story about eminem's video at:
http://www.gnn.tv/articles/article.php?id=752


By Anthony Lappé
Eminem calls for regime change in a controversial new video directed by GNN's Ian Inaba


Now on the eve of the most contentious American presidential election in recent history, Eminem is making another bold statement with his song “Mosh,” and its sure to be controversial new music video produced and directed by GNN’s own, Ian Inaba. The video is premiering today here on GNN.tv .

This is not Eminem’s first political statement. In 2002, GNN’s Stephen Marshall directed the music video for “White America.” the rapper dealt with race, violence and a corrupt president in his typically provocative manner. The animated GNN video featured, among other images, Eminem urinating on the White House lawn in full view of a puppet president dancing on oil drums, and bloodied teenagers unzipping themselves out of bodybags .

Eminem, in his typically egotistical way, is calling for regime change.

Some Lyrics from the song:

Come along, follow me, as I lead through the darkness.
As I provide just enough spark that we need, to proceed.
Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me, and I won’t, steer you wrong.
Give your faith and your trust, as I guide us through the fog, to the light at the end of the tunnel.

Let us set aside our differences and assemble our own army to disarm this weapon of mass destruction that we call our president for the present, and march for the future of our next generation to speak and be heard.

[PyschoSteve85]

78. I was losing respect

But then he just disses Bush now so hes good. I just dont like he constantly bashes gays. But Bashing Bush is good we need more any-bush rap songs and rock songs.

[MsTryska]

79. You know....i find it interesting so many people think of

eminem as a mygonistic homophobe.


i accidentally fell into hip-hop culture when it was at it's New York heights. I was hanging out with soem cutting edge djs, worked on an underground radio show, got to interview Chuck D, and basically was knee deep in it.


One thing everyone has to remember is that hip hop culture is fueled by young angry disenfranchised men. it's rife with ego and macho, and being as "hard" as you can. If that means you have to call soemone a faggot, and say you'll kill your mom to be the baddest mofo out there, you prolly will. Double that if you're a whiteboy.


i listen to eminems stuff and have listened from long before anyone else heard him.


i thought he had immense talent, and his rhymes were thought-provoking in an "in your face, yeah i said it" sort of way. I doubt for one second that he would actually do or say any of the things he rhymes about. I also believe most of it is said precisely to set people on edge and rattle people's cages.

and judging by the overwhelming seriousness and affront "the establishment" takes to his words, he's a genius.

[mark414]

83. in his own words

I don't do black music, I don't do white music
I make fight music, for high school kids
I put lives at risk when I drive like this {*tires screech*}
I put wives at risk with a knife like this (AHHH!!)
Shit, you probably think I'm in your tape deck now
I'm in the back seat of your truck, with duct tape stretched out
Ducked the fuck way down, waitin to straight jump out
put it over your mouth, and grab you by the face, what now?
Oh - you want me to watch my mouth, how?
Take my fuckin eyeballs out, and turn em around?
Look - I'll burn your fuckin house down, circle around
and hit the hydrant, so you can't put your burning furniture out
(Oh my God! Oh my God!) I'm sorry, there must be a mix-up
You want me to fix up lyrics while the President gets his dick sucked?
<*ewwww*> Fuck that, take drugs, rape sluts
Make fun of gay clubs, men who wear make-up
Get aware, wake up, get a sense of humor
Quit tryin to censor music, this is for your kid's amusement
(The kids!) But don't blame me when lil' Eric jumps off of the terrace
You shoulda been watchin him - apparently you ain't parents



Cause I never knew I, knew I would get this big
I never knew I, knew I'd effect this kid
I never knew I'd, get him to slit his wrist
I never knew I'd, get him to hit this bitch
I never knew I, knew I would get this big
I never knew I, knew I'd effect this kid
I never knew I'd, get him to slit his wrist
I never knew I'd, get him to hit this bitch


So who's bringin the guns in this country? (Hmm?)
I couldn't sneak a plastic pellet gun through customs over in London
And last week, I seen a Schwarzaneggar movie
where he's shootin all sorts of these motherfuckers with a uzi
I sees three little kids, up in the front row,
screamin "Go," with their 17-year-old Uncle
I'm like, "Guidance - ain't they got the same moms and dads
who got mad when I asked if they liked violence?"
And told me that my tape taught 'em to swear
What about the make-up you allow your 12-year-old daughter to wear?
(Hmm?) So tell me that your son doesn't know any cuss words
when his bus driver's screamin at him, fuckin him up worse
("Go sit the fuck down, you little fuckin prick!")
And fuck was the first word I ever learned
up in the third grade, flippin the gym teacher the bird (Look!)
So read up, about how I used to get beat up
peed on, be on free lunch, and change school every 3 months
My life's like kinda what my wife's like (what?)
Fucked up after I beat her fuckin ass every night, Ike
So how much easier would life be
if 19 million motherfuckers grew to be just like me?




I never knew I.. knew I'd..
have a new house or a new car
A couple years ago I was more poorer than you are
I don't got that bad of a mouth, do I?
Fuck shit ass bitch cunt, shooby-de-doo-wop (what?)
Skibbedy-be-bop, a-Christopher Reeves
Sonny Bono, skis horses and hittin some trees (HEY!)
How many retards'll listen to me
and run up in the school shootin when they're pissed at a
teach-er, her, him, is it you is it them?
"Wasn't me, Slim Shady said to do it again!"
Damn! How much damage can you do with a pen?
Man I'm just as fucked up as you woulda been
if you woulda been, in my shoes, who woulda thought
Slim Shady would be somethin that you woulda bought
that woulda made you get a gun and shoot at a cop
I just said it - I ain't know if you'd do it or not




How the fuck was I supposed to know?

[mark414]

84. and some more

And I am, whatever you say I am
If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?
In the paper, the news everyday I am
Radio won't even play my jam
Cause I am, whatever you say I am
If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?
In the paper, the news everyday I am
I don't know it's just the way I am

Sometimes I just feel like my father, I hate to be bothered
with all of this nonsense it's constant
And, "Oh, it's his lyrical content -
- the song 'Guilty Conscience' has gotten such rotten responses"
And all of this controversy circles me
and it seems like the media immediately
points a finger at me (finger at me)..
So I point one back at 'em, but not the index or pinkie
or the ring or the thumb, it's the one you put up
when you don't give a fuck, when you won't just put up
with the bullshit they pull, cause they full of shit too
When a dude's gettin bullied and shoots up his school
and they blame it on Marilyn (on Marilyn).. and the heroin
Where were the parents at? And look where it's at
Middle America, now it's a tragedy
Now it's so sad to see, an upper class ci-ty
havin this happenin (this happenin)..
then attack Eminem cause I rap this way (rap this way)..
But I'm glad cause they feed me the fuel that I need for the fire
to burn and it's burnin and I have returned

And I just do not got the patience (got the patience)..
to deal with these cocky caucasians who think
I'm some wigger who just tries to be black cause I talk
with an accent, and grab on my balls, so they always keep askin
the same fuckin questions (fuckin questions)..
What school did I go to, what hood I grew up in
The why, the who what when, the where, and the how
'til I'm grabbin my hair and I'm tearin it out

[hiphopnation]

89. Undeniably brilliant.

I don't know that I've ever looked at it on paper before. Equally effective as the music. Thanks for posting. :thumbsup:

[america2002]

104. Eminem

I wouldn't get to enthralled with ol' eminem. He is not a thinker. He will no doubt sing the other side when the political climate is right. He is the type of person who is just angry and he places it on who he thinks will sell.

[mark414]

105. wrong

you don't know much about eminem obviously, because if you listen to any of his past albums, his most recent specifically rails against bush in more than one song (back when bush was still popular at that) and he talks about a lot of things that progressives would agree with

[SheepyMcSheepster]

107. you have no idea who or what you are talking about.

maybe you should become more familiar with the subject.