"When you have a Family, you'll understand"

[Jack_Dawson]

That is the foundation of my old college buddy's argument in favor of Bush. Can people get any more sanctimonious and condescending?

My reply: (names eliminated to protect the should-know-betters)

You gotta understand something...who isn't against terrorists? Why do you think Bush had a 90% approval rating in the months following 9/11? Because the country rallied around him, and he was doing the right things, namely going after Osama bin Laden. Well here we are, three years later - and no OBL. Instead, we attacked an unarmed country in an elective war based on a false premise. There were no WMDs. There were no ties to 9/11.

But there are thousands of dead Americans, 100,000 dead Iraqis - and one pissed off Middle East. What's worse, normally moderate Muslims with dead or injured relatives are turning radical and joining the ranks of Zarqawi and Al-Qaida. We have stirred up the Mother of all Hornet's Nests. Does that really make you feel safer?

Your side always says "but we haven't been attacked since 9/11." I agree, and that's a good thing.

But in Dick Cheney's own words "It's not a matter of 'if', it's a matter of "when". The fact remains the worst terrorist attack on U.S. soil happened on Bush's watch. What's worse, he was warned about it and did nothing.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=44925

In the days following 9/11, the very well-respected National Terrorism Czar Richard Clarke, who had served with distinction for both republican and democratic administrations, recounted how Bush pulled him into a room and said "find something on Iraq", even though no such evidence existed. Even though everyone knew the attack originated from Afghanistan.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/19/60minutes/main607356.shtml

So Mr. _____ you like to talk about facts. These, my friend, are irrefutable facts. The truth is I would feel much safer under a President Kerry than I have under a president who has made many more enemies than friends. My $.02.

Peace Brother,

JD

[JuniorPlankton]

1. I have a family

That's the main reason to kick the * bastard OUT!

(for example, I wouldn't want my sons, 5 and 2 now, to fight any of the made-up wars for Halliburton)

:kick:

[XNASA]

2. I have a family. Including a 17 year old son.

Tell you college buddy that I said he's an idiot.

[ProfessorGAC]

27. What He Said!

And i don't have any kids. But, your college buddy is a buffoon, and a coward.
The Professor

[skygazer]

28. I have a 17 year old son too

I have two daughters and three small grandchildren. I hate that condescending argument. Tell your "friend" (this to the OP) that I said, "Fuck you. Speak for yourself."

[onehandle]

3. I know a lot of people who have families who understand...

....Bush is dangerous. They also understand that their families' finances are suffering to prop up the rich.

[Hello_Kitty]

4. Very good response and you could also add something:

"How many members of your family would you be willing to have come home in a box?" I'm guessing this guy doesn't have any kids fighting over there. Yet, anyway.

[Liberal Veteran]

5. It IS condescending and I abhor when people use their breeder status....

...as a shield against intelligent discussion.

Sorry to put it into such crude terms, but the notion that because I am childless means I have no compelling interest is insulting.

[phylny]

17. I abhor when people use the word "breeder" n/t

[Liberal Veteran]

23. I am sure no matter what word I used, some would find offense....

...I chose the word that fits the situation.

[phylny]

35. Hmm, or...parents. That's a word that fits the situation.

[Kipepeo]

66. Except the dude said "when you have a family"

but he didn't mean family, he meant "when you have kids." It's sanctimonious.

I have a family but I don't have kids. :)

[Hello_Kitty]

31. Now you know how the childless feel when routinely called "selfish" n/t

[PittLib]

32. or when pitied for their status ... n/t

[phylny]

37. Never pitied a childless person or persons.

Next?

[PittLib]

46. Was I referring to you? Do you call childless people "selfish"?

I find that I hold little value to certain people I know because I am not married and do not feel a particular need to have children at this point in my life (I'm 29). Those people will define their greatest accomplishment in life as having children. This does not denigrate proud "parents" ... just their condescension if they choose to treat those who have different priorities with contempt or pity. I find that when I am offended, it's because I see some truth in what is being said, otherwise it would mean nothing.

[phylny]

50. No, of course I don't call anyone selfish for choosing to live their

lives the way they want to. Nor will I sit by and NOT comment when people use a word that I think isn't meant as a term of endearment, and is meant to denigrate others.

I don't call African-American people niggers.

I don't call lesbians dykes.

I don't call Hispanic people spics.

I don't call people who live in the country Rednecks.

I don't like words that are meant to hurt, demean, or insult.

You and others certainly may continue to try to spin the use of the word, or say that you weren't talking ABOUT me, or that I don't understand the word and its usage. I will continue to speak out against a word that I find offensive. Others don't? Great. I do.

[PittLib]

59. I've never heard the terms you've chosen for your rebuttal ...

used to describe a specific part of a sub group - as in "P. Diddy is a nigger but Denzel is not" or "Rosie: dyke - Ellen: lesbian". They are in their creation derogatory (are they ever used with positive or even neutral intent? - No.) Is "breeder" a word created for the sole purpose of denigration? Last I checked it had other meanings. There are people in our society who justify their existence by having children, it gives them purpose in their own minds. There are also people who have children as an extension of themselves, for reasons of ego. Do I find the motivation questionable? Perhaps. Do I think that it explicitly implies that they are bad parents? No, I do not. And I don't feel that everyone falls into these subcategories either. If it is such an offensive term as you suggest ... where is the power shift? Will it incite riots? Are the childless going to rise up and start institutionalizing discrimination against those with children? I don't think so. It is about as harmful as "hippie" or "yuppie". If you take offense, it is obviously your right to do so (I respect the 1st amendment) but perhaps you should reassess your role as a parent in your own mind, if this word undermines your place as a human being. I think you are making the choice to read this as offensive, and I'm just trying spare you the unnecessary indignation.

[phylny]

63. You are correct

in that the word "breeder" has other meanings, such as the nice lady who bred her dog and bitch to make my sweet bitch. However, in the context of the message that I originally responded to, it didn't mean that. It was used in a derogatory manner. I'm sure I'm not reading into the meaning, or making a choice to read it as offensive, only because the poster apologized for using it when he/she said, "sorry to put it in such crude terms...." If he/she wasn't talking about the term "breeder," then I can't imagine what other crude term(s) he/she meant.

So, I don't really think I'm misreading the situation.

As for your other assertions, while I can't prove you're wrong and I'm right, the ideas you put forth aren't really an accurate portrayal of my life. I have children that I love, but they do not define who I am. The word doesn't undermine me, just as the word "nigger" doesn't undermine me. I'm not Black, I'm white. I still find the word to be offensive and will comment on it as such.

[PittLib]

64. Okay.

I just hope everyone here doesn't become so PC that I am not able to use a single noun without offending someone or being admonished. This is not to imply that you have (become PC)... I might just have caught you on a particular word that you abhor. I understand your point, though I don't agree that it such an obviously insulting word. And I respect your constancy in your belief. We are arguing totally different points ... and if I thought it were actually necessary ... I'd call a truce. :)

[phylny]

36. But I don't use that word, and would be similarly offended by

the thoughtlessness of the word.

Next excuse?

[lastliberalintexas]

39. It's not an excuse

I'm a parent, not a breeder. This guy sounds like he's a breeder. Sorry if you can't comprehend the difference.


Just like there are repubs, and then there are neocons...

[phylny]

42. My comprehension of the word and the context is just fine.

I found the use of the word offensive in the post, and I continue to do so. I think its use, and the basis of it, is condescending and nasty to people who have children, just as I find other hateful words equally as offensive.

[PittLib]

45. maybe we should all just shut up lest we offend... hmmm? nt

[phylny]

48. Nope, let's just be respectful and try not to use offensive words

hmmm?

[PittLib]

49. since you seem to be the only one offended by this ...

perhaps you should set the parameters and get back to us. thanks.

[phylny]

51. Read my reply on this thread.

[FizzFuzz]

52. I abhor breeders who protest the childfree's right to speak

We live in a pronatalist world, and the breeder point of view gets all the press, always. The childfree are expected to share your burden: ever heard of school taxes? Tax breaks per child? Extra work expected of non-breeders so parents can have maternity leave, extra sick days, leave early to drive offspring to soccer practice? Quit complaining.

Ever heard of overpopulation?

But SmirkCo is doing its best to help reduce the numbers; kudos to him on that. (big sarcasm, in case anyone misses it)

[phylny]

53. You have a great point.

I happen to agree with most of the points you make in your post. Too bad it's so incredibly hate-filled. I think everyone has the right to speak. I just don't like derogatory words. But I'm sure your use of the term "breeders" isn't hateful. Yarite.

[FizzFuzz]

54. and too bad every word from you sounds like those holier than thou

"Jesus Loves You" that some people toss out with a puckering grin to those who voice disagreement. That's just phony niceness, hiding a big "fuck you", which is how you have sounded in your posts....or to quote you:

.....hmmmm?

and btw, what do you mean "I'm sure your use of the term "breeders" isn't hateful.." jesuschrist on a bicycle, I said quite clearly and with no phony nicey nice, "I hate breeders!", right there in the heading! Stop intimating I may be unhateful!

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FizzFuzz]

56. if you weren't speaking with a supercilious tone, there wouldn't have been

numerous other people reacting negatively to you.

I just like to be right out front with my anger, not hide it behind snarky little "yarite"s.

Actually, the breeders I hate most are the "ooh look how many buns I popped out, give me a medal. And I get to jump down the throat of anyone who disparages my productive gonads!!!! Nyah!!!!"

About the cursing, I was just giving voice to the Attitude you're shooting at people, though you're hiding it behind pseudo-dialogue.

If you were truly engaging in dialogue, as you claim, your responses to people's offense at you would be something more open and honest sounding, like "oh, sorry, didn't mean to sound that way. What I meant was...."

[phylny]

57. I don't think I could have been any plainer in my language and I

don't think I understand what "pseudo-dialogue" I'm using. If you've read my threads, Fizz, I've said that I find the use of the word "breeder" to be offensive. That's in in a nutshell. I've been pretty consistent about it, and I've given examples of why I don't like the word. It's never meant in a nice way. Never, unless you're talking about people who breed animals.

In response to the original post, and in response to some others who somehow need to prove that I should not MIND the tone because of childless people, special treatment, etc., I'll be plainspoken: I think people who have children and feel that they're entitled to some special status, such as "I'm more important because ___________" are ridiculous and wrong.

But to be hated because of my choice to have kids, as you state you do, or to be ridiculed because I stated my belief that the word is offensive boggles my mind.

I generally try not to be snarky. In fact, 99% of my posts here and on usenet aren't. However, when people respond to me in the manner in which I was responded to on this thread, then unfortunately, I'll respond in kind. I'm a nice person, but I'm not that nice.

Note, however, that I didn't say I hate you. That I don't do in kind.

Enjoy your evening, Fizz.

[FizzFuzz]

60. OK let's just shake and forget it then

really I have nothing more to say.

I'll just explain my ballistic attitude a bit, so you don't think its coming out of nowhere: Destruction of planetary biodiversity. Rampant ecological devastation.

Human beings are an exterminator species (I didn't coin that term. I found it under National Geographic and some other sites when googling on overpopulation.) There are over 6 billion of us and no real talk yet of slowing down production. Sentiment tops all discussion of human effects on the planet.

I am very upset by the cultural kudos given to parents, the "god-given right" people-- no matter how good or bad their parenting skills-- supposedly have to procreate, the unalloyed applause given to multiparous households (um, as long as they're white and two-parented), the insistence that we avoid thinking about the consequences of having more than one child, the massive willful blinders concerning the millions of unwanted kids needing adoption. But no, everyone feels they need to pass on their genes.

So again, that is, at least in part, where my excessive anger comes from.

You too, have yourself a good evening.

[loudestchick]

58. I am also VERY offended by the term "breeder"...

None of the decent, caring people I know would use that word in anything but jest...I'm sorry that you find my reproduction so offensive...I believe in personal choice, I CHOSE to have my children but it's in everyone's best interest that they be healthy, educated and well cared for.

[ReadTomPaine]

62. Agreed, "breeder" is an offensive term.

[FizzFuzz]

69. I know its offensive. Its meant to be. It draws attention to this:

OVERPOPULATION

"Destruction of planetary biodiversity. Rampant ecological devastation.

Human beings are an exterminator species (I didn't coin that term. I found it under National Geographic and some other sites when googling on overpopulation.) There are over 6 billion of us and no real talk yet of slowing down production. Sentiment tops all discussion of human effects on the planet.

I am very upset by the cultural kudos given to parents, the "god-given right" people-- no matter how good or bad their parenting skills-- supposedly have to procreate, the unalloyed applause given to multiparous households (um, as long as they're white and two-parented), the insistence that we avoid thinking about the consequences of having more than one child, the massive willful blinders concerning the millions of unwanted kids needing adoption. But no, everyone feels they need to pass on their genes."

I'm quoting myself from a post earlier in this thread. But if anyone doesn't get that producing children should be discouraged in our present situation, then I'm willing to be offensive as hell to try and draw some attention.

[susanna]

68. self-deleted.

[Liberal Veteran]

70. Sorry if the word was found offensive....It just irks me to no end when...

...people think they can blantantly disregard your opinion because they have children and you can't possibly understand where they are coming from (as well as the notion subtle hint that their PRIVILEGED perspective makes them more wise and worldly than those who haven't got children which is ALWAYS implied in the "wait until you have children and your opinion will change" line).

[geniph]

6. Does your friend have draft-age sons?

Because my husband does, two of them - and I think your friend would be singing a very different tune if his family were endangered by this trumped-up Wag the Dog war.

[MsUnderstood]

7. I have a family

And I don't understand. Bush has set us up to require the draft to solve the problems in the middle east.

The DOD is talking about including women and uping the draft age to 34 (along with drafting special skills people first, then looking at age).

Americans are no longer united, my daughter is teased for having democratic beliefs at school.

"Family Values" of the bush administration include excluding Gays and Lesbians to fuel the hatred of the religious right.

Middle class FAMILIES are being squeezed. The healthcare costs are driven up because Medicaid and medicare pay less than what is billed, tax cuts benefit the rich MORE than the poor, and corporations pocket their tax cuts but continue to raise prices.

These are not family values.

*edited to change 3 to 34*

[Jack_Dawson]

9. Draft age to 3?

Huh?

[MsUnderstood]

18. sorry I fixed the 3 to 34

In my defense my pinky isn't working today--I have a boo boo.

[AlCzervik]

8. i've been married for 14 years and have a 10 year old

and thats exactly why i'm voting for Kerry. I cannot allow my daughter to grow up in Bushworld.

[SammyWinstonJack]

10. I have a family

Including two sons ages 27 and 32, who might be drafted if the chimp is re-sElected. I also have a 12 y/0 granddaughter, whose future will be in jeopardy if it isn't already, under another chimp term :-(

[Cat Atomic]

11. Understand what? Hysteria?

You're right- it's an incredibly condescending thing to say. It's also an admission that their argument is irrational. A person who says this is essentially saying that they're acting on emotion rather than reason.

Tell him that if he were still single, he'd be able to see things rationally.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

12. I have a family which includes a 6 and 4 yr old, plus a 19 yr old...

...daughter from a previous marriage. Thanks to the policies of the NeoCons for the past four years, we are on the brink of financial ruin and may have to drop our medical insurance.

But I subscribe to a more radical line of thought as to how 911 came to pass. I firmly believe that, at the very least, the NeoCons ALLOWED the attacks to take place so that they could kick-start their oil-driven agenda in the Middle East. I also firmly believe that these unelected treasonous bastards should be brought to trial as soon as possible.

I am DEFINITELY voting for Kerry in hopes that my oldest daughter will never be drafted to fight in a war for which there is absolutely no reason that I can ascertain, and in hopes that Kerry can get us back on the path to a brighter future for my youngest kids.

Sorry to say, but your old college buddy is whacked out of his skull.

[JHB]

13. I have a pet theory...

...that many parents suffer a form of brain damage from sleep deprivation due to night feedings, colic, and any other reason infants keep you up.

Generally, this merely causes parents to forget how things were when THEY were kids, but I'm sure accute cases spawn this sort of haughty sanctimony as well.

[China_cat]

14. Here's a place you can send your buddy

if you think he might really want to hear what people with families really think.


http://3harpiesltd.net/ocb/archives/00000007.htm

[Jack_Dawson]

19. I couldn't navigate it...

maybe it's my browser. Is there more to it than the front page?

[China_cat]

47. That's the archived entry.

[JHB]

15. Tell him to look at his kids, and look what's happening in Iraq right now

Because if Bush is installed for a second term, what's happening in iraq will still be going on, and in more places, when his kids are old enough to be drafted to "stay the course".

[Nordic]

16. I have a family -- all the more reason to despise *

If I didn't have a family I'd care a LOT less

[Ilsa]

20. I have two replacement units.

I hate Bush even more because he is making the world less safe for my kids.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

21. There is only one response to this

"When you have a brain, you'll understand."

[PittLib]

33. send him off to the wizard ...

(sorry, just saw Wicked on Broadway ... couldn't resist the reference)

[catzies]

22. Jack, using logical arguments to battle "feeling" arguments is futile.

I've found you just can't win with people when you're using facts to back up your position and they don't care, because it's all about their feelings.

The partisan polarization we've been living with is the thinkers vs. the feelers. "Safety Moms," "NASCAR Dads," whatever.

It's like the illogic used to sell SUVs. They're not actually safer because they're bigger (they can't maneuever away from a crash but are designed merely to take it full-on and absorb the shock) - but they are safer merely because people feel they are and want to believe it.

Facts are wrong, but feelings aren't. That's why you can't win that argument.

[sandnsea]

24. authoritarian vs. nurturing

There was a good article on this posted yesterday. It depends on what you think a family is supposed to be. The right promotes an authoritarian family and uses authoritarian words to translate it to politics, "permission slip" was an example used. That's one of the things we have to fight and take away because authoritarian families and politics are not good for anybody.

[UdoKier]

25. I became much more liberal after having kids.

I was a center-right type before.

Having kids teaches you a lot about empathy and how difficult it is to raise kids as a working person, and imagine what it must be like for the truly poor.

I guess people who have maids and nannies don't have a chance to learn that kind of empathy, or even understand what kind of advantage it affords them in the workplace over those of us whose every waking hour is spent working or shuttling kids around, or tutoring them, or doing housework, etc.

[mmonk]

26. I have a family

or is it just some illusion?

[Gyre]

29. I have a family, and for me 9/11

didn't translate into checking my brain at the front door, or foresaking my country. Your ole college buddy's problem is that he is a chickenshit, no patriot and is too thick to see that he's hurting his kid's future by his unblinking support for the chimp.

Gyre

[BiggJawn]

30. I told a guy who told me that "I *HAVE* a family!"

They said the same damn thing back in the Ray-Gun and Poppy era.

They were right, in a way....I understand that the GOP wants me to STFU and keep buying shit to prop-up their bogus "economy". And they wanted me to have had a few more kids, sons, preferably, to feed their war machine, but a daughter's OK, since they could make a "Handmaiden" out of her....

Yeah, I guess they were right, I *DO* understand.....

[LibertyLover]

34. Tell your friend

Ihave a family - a 2 year old daughter, a 21 year old stepson and a 24 year old stepdaughter. They are the reasons I'm voting for Kerry.

[lastliberalintexas]

38. Has your friend enlisted?

Surely he wants to join in the effort which he feels is making his family safer...

[leesa]

40. Carpet bombing a country for 10 months to catch a handful of ALLEGED

terrorists IS NOT the right thing to do.

[hiphopnation]

41. I have a family.

EOM

[Sinnerman]

43. Life as we know it ........ is on the ballot Next Tuesday

[union_maid]

44. I"m married, I have a family

My son is probably still vulnerable to the draft, although it's not clear. He's going to be 26 in February. I have a granddaughter, too. I have a family and that's one of the reasons it means so much to me that their future isn't blighted by the policies of this administration.

[ReadTomPaine]

61. My response - "And when you learn to *care* for your family, so will you"

[indie_voter]

65. Point him to this thread. I have a family

Two children and a husband. * is dangerous.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

67. Your friend must realize that not every parent in this

country is voting for Bush (it's maybe half). That's an absolutely illogical thought. It doesn't make any sense to say that you'll understand when you have a kid, when so many people who already have kids do not agree with the Bush agenda.

BTW, I have a two year old son.