Abortion is a symptom of an anti-Life culture.

[patrice]

We should be addressing what is anti-Life in our culture, e.g. "It's your money and you don't owe the system anything." OR Spending what taxes we do collect on weapons and war.

Trying to prevent abortion by legislating against it is like trying to treat skin cancer with make-up.

[ulysses]

1. no it isn't.

I'll agree that our society is violent, greedy and stupid in large part, but I don't see how abortion fits into that. You're reaching.

[DerekG]

4. I disagree, ulysses

Although I'm reluctantly pro-choice, I am a radical Christian, and consider abortion to be a part of the same "culture of death" as war, economic exploitation, and capital punishment. My sole reason for supporting Roe v. Wade is to prevent the injuries and deaths that would arise from amateur procedures (I've read the literature, rife with horror stories).

I support the adoption of democratic socialism, for a stronger safety net would ensure that the number of abortions dropped.

[ulysses]

5. an admirable position

but I still think you're wrong on the "culture of death" thing. :) I've escorted at several clinics in downtown Atlanta, and I wouldn't describe any of the women I saw entering them as part of such a culture, at least on that basis.

[DerekG]

10. I didn't mean to imply that

My apprehension is not directed towards women; rather, it's aimed at the idea, the practice itself (my apologies if this sounds nebulous). Unfortunately, the Religious Right resorts to hateful platitudes--levying such charges as "baby-killers" and "murderers", which sullies the debate for progressives such as myself who seek a discourse tempered by reason.

We both support Roe v. Wade, the difference lies with the trepidation.

[MadHound]

16. Then you will have to concede that all cultures throughout history

Are "cultures of death" being as that abortion and infanticide have been practiced in all lands throughout all times.

Women, and societies in general have always found the need for terminating unwanted pregnacies, or for killing unwanted children. This isn't unique to America in the twentieth century. Be if for reasons of sexual selection(preference of boys over girls in many Asian cultures), a distaste for children with birth defects(ancient Rome and Greece), to protect the illusion of virginity(Middle Age Europe), or simply because they couldn't afford another mouth to feed(universal), cultures throughout the ages have practiced both procedures. And usually in as great a number as the US is today. Just recently I read an article of an ancient Greek city that is being unearthed, and they found well over ten thousand infants that had been killed due to birth defects, etc. Throughout the Middle Ages, while abortion was officially a crime, it was quite common for midwives to dispense herbal concoctions that would result in a miscarriage.

It isn't a practice that is unique to our culture and time, it is a practice that has spanned the centuries and the globe. If it is a "culture of death", then mankind throughout the ages, including the biblical ones, are all guilty of bringing it about.

[DerekG]

17. Yes, I'll concede that all societies have an element of this death culture

Of course, ours is a greater offender than most, since our country has essentially been the leading terrorist state since 1945 (our foreign policy has claimed the lives of millions).

Abortion is indeed omnipresent, and does exist, more often than not, out of financial necessity. But as a Christian, I will never concede that what is practical is necessarily right. My political ethos revolves around the desire for mankind's upliftment. I do not romantize the past; history is a slaughterhouse. But I feel we have to transverse this, and forge a society that is rooted in humanism.

On edit: Added the first paragraph

[H2O Man]

20. simply not true

While I in no way support the outlawing of abortion, you are simply wrong in your historic perspective. The Haudenosaunee, or Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy, which people such as Franklin, Adams, and Jefferson used as a model for the USA, and which was a matriarchal culture, outlawed abortion. It's not true that all societies at all times had the practice of abortion in a widespread manner.

[MadHound]

24. Let's see here friend

Ancient Rome, Sioux, ancient Greek, China, both modern and ancient, various African tribal societies, Middle Age European, the list is quite long. And while yes, many cultures made abortion illegal, it still occured, much as it occured in America forty years ago, in stealth and subterfuge. Even amongst your Iroquois'.

Go read your history friend, read your archaeological studies that document both the practice of abortion and infanticide. Read the old documents that contain old herbal concoctions, to be used either orally or as a douche in order to terminate pregnancies. Read of the ingreidients, nightshade and mercury.

Read all of this, then try and tell me with a straight face how wrong I am. I'll be waiting friend.

[Warpy]

6. Good position.

The only sane position should be to ensure that as few women feel the need to choose abortion as possible. We know the "prolife" GOP creates the conditions that cause more and more women to choose to abort.

Nobody likes abortion. It's expensive, humiliating and very painful. However, some women will continue to choose it for a variety of reasons. Making it illegal only stops the safe abortions.

[Iris]

23. but people have needed abortions for one reason or another

since the beginning of time.

(Mostly women people, but you know what I mean!)

[eridani]

32. I wish all people against abortion felt like you do.

Too bad it ain't so, and most prefer Bush, under whose administration there have been far more abortions for just the reasons you gave.

[DemBones DemBones]

40. I agree with you, and all the posts about other cultures practicing

abortion are really meaningless since many of the cultures being listed also condoned public torture and executions.

I support abortion being kept legal and safe but until abortion is rare, our culture is part of the culture of death.

[camero]

2. Correct

That's why abortions rise when republicans are in office. Because they are anti-life.

[rusty charly]

3. charles rangel (d-ny):

In directing Catholics on how to judge candidates, the bishops have been silent on most traditional Catholic issues, including opposition to the death penalty. We’ve heard nothing from them about the 1,000 Americans killed and 7,500 wounded in Iraq. Nor have they expressed any concern for the 10,000 innocent civilians slaughtered in Mr. Bush’s war of choice. Though not Christians, these Iraqis deserve the same compassion as any innocent victims of war.



http://www.observer.com/pages/wiseguys.asp

[DemBones DemBones]

44. I just want to add that

that should read SOME Catholic bishops. Very few bishops have made comments suggesting that Catholics shouldn't vote for a pro-choice candidate. Besides that, the Bishop of Rome has offered the opposite opinion, and he outranks all the other bishops. (The Bishop of Rome is Pope John Paul II.)

[VelmaD]

7. Nice right-wing talking point

*sigh*

[dr.strangelove]

9. Is it right wing to be pro-choice but hate abortions

I'm not being sarcastic, but really asking for an opinion.

I am pro-choice, but I would rather if abortions were rarely chosen. I believe most abortions are the result of unwanted pregnancies. If we can advance birth control education and the availability of birth control, it would be far cheaper and safer for the population to use birth control to prevent a pregnancy than undergo expensive and risky medical procedures after the fact.

Is this a right-wing position I hold? I don't think so, but I'd like to hear if you think it is.

[DrWeird]

14. No, but it's right wing to use right wing talking points.

Particularly this "anti-life culture" crap.

[dr.strangelove]

18. I've never heard that anti-life culture crap, as you put it

What is so right-wing about it?

[DrWeird]

21. Really? I here it all the time. That, and "a culture of death."

Why is it right wing? Well, the right wing uses it all the time. And it implies there are people who are "anti-life" and that people who are pro-choice are "pro-abortion." Which is also right wing bullshit.

[belle]

37. It's a standard phrase used in conservative Catholic circles, I believe

and particularly "open to life" versus "closed to life." They use it wrt birth control and homsexuality and basically anything that isn't married het sex with the intent of spawning, or at least the willingness to risk it.

[VelmaD]

28. Oh please...the fundies use that phrase all the time...

it's another bullshit code for anti-choice.

[dr.strangelove]

29. Never heard it before

[Swamp Rat]

34. Not only have I heard it on FOX, 700 Club, et al, but ...

... I've come accross it in literature, and people I know that use the phrase. I'll bet you can find it in anthro and sociology journals in French, German, English, Portuguese, Spanish and Italian, and more.

[dr.strangelove]

35. I don't ever see those sources

I never watch fox or 700 club. I wish I read more sociology and language texts, but I don't. Sorry to surprise you, but I just never heard th eterm before.

[Swamp Rat]

36. It doesn't "surprise" me.

I helped my brother turn his TV into a shark aquarium by pasting magazine cutouts from National Geographic all over it. I, on the otherhand, suppliment hours of reading with a little TV in order to watch the "enemy" so to speak. There's also BookTV on CSPAN, where I saw Chomsky and Amy Goodman the other night.

[DemBones DemBones]

41. If the fundies use the phrase "culture of life," they stole it from us

Catholics. And it's not code for opposition to abortion to us; it means opposition to war, capital punishment, euthanasia, and abortion, and to poverty.

[Peanut Gallery]

33. I see it as your personal viewpoint

and not a talking point. I respect your position.

What you've stated is a far cry from the religious bigotry, misogyny and paternalism that characterize the anti-choice crowd, imho.

Legislating morality doesn't work as you mentioned, however, I'm not sure there are any definitive answers or solutions. The circumstances surrounding unplanned pregnancy vary widely, and for that reason it has to remain a private, individual matter.

[dr.strangelove]

8. I with you, but not really

While I don't agree with your "anti-life" theory, I get to the same result.

Abortions come in a variety of forms. The most popular are invasive medical procedures with significant risks and discomfort associated for the woman.
The reason for the vast majority of abortions are unplanned pregnancies, though a small percentage were likely planned and then aborted due to various circumstances.

I would rather eliminate most of the unplanned pregnancies through education and effective birth control than have abortions. I think any sane person would agree that not becoming pregnant in the first place is better than aborting an unplanned pregnancy.

I believe it is in a woman's best interests to avoid an unnecessary medical procedure. I think the way to avoid placing the choice on a woman is to be sure young people are educated about reproduction and proper use of birth control and to ensure effective birth control is available. This is why my wife and I support planned parenthood.

If you a woman is pregnant and are considering an abortion, if I spoke to her I would encourage her to consider adoption or keeping the child. I believe the choice is clearly the woman's.

Anyway, I don;t understand the anti-life theory, but you are on the right track with your hopes.

[Cyrix]

30. Bull shit

"The most popular are invasive medical procedures with significant risks and discomfort associated for the woman. "

They are safer than actually giving birth.

[SoCalDem]

11. Abortions have been around since sharp sticks were "invented"

We need to BUTT OUT.. It's a medical issue between a doctor and a patient..and it's a religious issue between a woman and her "god"..

The REST of us need to STFU..and STAY OUT OF IT ..

It's time that ALL the churchified do-gooders get their noses out of the crotches of women they do not even know.

[bleedingheart]

12. No, it's about two people having sex without protection and a plan

sorry but abortions are unfortunate alternative to poor planning on the part of two individuals who thought interrupting a moment of passion to put a condom on was somehow a "downer". It's also a problem for women who are taking the pill but forget that the antibiotic they are taking will nullify the protection...or it's the unfortunate case of a mother finding out that the fetus is plagued by some horrible condition.

Abortion is a private issue.

[Iris]

25. That's a bit simplistic for such a complicated issue. n/t

[SemiCharmedQuark]

38. There is no contraceptive method that is 100% accurate

What about couples that use birth control but still get pregnant? The hell with them?

[DemBones DemBones]

42. But most "accidental" pregnancies result from user error, not method

failure. User errors include not using contraceptives each time, forgetting to take birth control pills, not using condoms properly, etc. Those could be prevented if people were better educated and better motivated. When people have a strong incentive to avoid pregnancy, they do a better job of using contraceptives.

If abortions were only sought for pregnancies that result from actual contraceptive failure, the abortion rate would be drastically reduced. It wouldn't be difficult to reach that goal and it wouldn't require great sacrifice of anyone.

[Beacho]

13. Poor protection and without a plan

And still none of your damn business, or anyone else's for that matter

[sandnsea]

15. Abortion is a wedge issue

Pregnancy prevention, parenting education, good economy, medical assistance, maternity education; that is a pro-life plan that will reduce abortion.

We probably also need a huge campapign about pre-natal care and things that can go wrong in pregnancies, to help prevent it but also to remind people why there are late-term medical abortions in the first place. Get some common sense back in the debate.

[Pump Man]

31. Yea you right! poverty causes abortions more than anything besides sex

vote---http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6092749

[nodehopper]

19. are you comparing abortion to skin cancer?

way to pass a moral judgement.

[baldguy]

22. So is support of the death penalty.

So is allowing social & economic injustice to continue. So is locking people up in prison simply because they belong to a particular social or ethnic group. So is supporting an unjust war.

So is voting for George Bush.

[DerekG]

26. I suspect the original poster would agree with you

It isn't always either/or; one can be a leftist *and* have reservations about abortion.

[arbusto_baboso]

27. 1100+ dead troops and 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians are a sign of

an anti-life culture.

What's your point?

[REP]

39. Bullshit

Life isn't that simple or simplistic.

[The Flaming Red Head]

43. I'm surprised anyone would choose to have children in this society

It's too damn easy right now for the state to step in and take your children.

I know horror story after horror story (ongoing) and more than one or two, a bunch and it isn't always in the child's best interest.

[enki23]

45. abortions, miscarriages, failed implantations...

most fertilized ova don't make it very far. get rid of all the mysticism, and abortion is no more scandalous than having a mole removed. i'm interested in bettering human life, not restricting it in favor of unaware tissue masses.

in other words: bullshit.