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After reading up on the My Lai massacre, can someone help understand?

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Tim4319 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:16 PM
Original message
After reading up on the My Lai massacre, can someone help understand?
Now, all of these "Vets for Truth" people are attacking Kerry saying there were no atrocities in Vietnam, how could this have been forgotten?
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. This kind of stuff doesn't normally make it into the textbooks
So "we the people" have to keep educating and re-educating each generation.

Pass it on.

:hippie:

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idiosyncratic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. What doesn't make it into the text books frames what a person
believes. I remember the first time I learned, as an adult, about the World War II Japanese Internment camps. My first reaction was to say, "That isn't true."

That is what I thought simply because in all my years of school, including four years of college, I had never learned that.

It had conveniently been left out of the text books of that era.


. . . Is it in today's textbooks?

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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I don't know if it's in today's textbooks - maybe it's time to
start investigating.


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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. You are correct. I remember seeing the My Lai photos in Life magazine
when I was a young teen. They are seared into my memory. So are the first-person accounts of others who witnessed similar atrocities.

War is all hell, as somebody said.

Did you note the officer who played a key role in covering up My Lai? It was Colin Powell.
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Tim4319 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I did not know that!!!!!!!!
"What a tangle web we weave...."
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. But few know that Colin Powell was involved in the My Lai coverup
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teach1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's not forgotten. It's lies.
Revisionism.

I can't tell you how many righties tell me that they believe that we were pristine in Vietnam and would have won if only we could have used our military might...acutally, some tell me the U.S. did win.

Links to accounts of the attrocities are ignored.

The fanatical right is determined that we forget the valuable lessons we should have learned in Vietnam.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Only republicans have conveniently "forgotten"
Edited on Sat Oct-30-04 05:20 PM by Postman
they're all a bunch of liars hired by the Bush campaign to spread their propaganda hoping dis-interested "un-decideds" take the bait.

They are shameless.
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. it's a bit like US history re the slain SAVAGE insurgents
many vets need to live in denial of what happened in vietnam
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:22 PM
Original message
Wow! I've just been reading about My Lai also!
For my 1960s class.

What is really striking to me is all the parallels that are going on right now with all of that and the situation in Iraq.

It's almost as if there is vast amnesia or something. Why aren't people going nuts?
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teach1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. The parallels are real...
...and that's why the right wants us to forget.
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Senior citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. We ARE going nuts!

Highest new voter registration, greatest number of mail-in ballots--this election is making history before it even happens.
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
27. There's no amnesia
The kool-aid drinkers see Iraq as Vietnam and think "Stay the course! Don't let the hippie commie peacenik traitors get in the way of American victory!" The saner among us see Iraq as another Vietnam and think "Unwinnable mistake, atrocities, pointless slaughter -- mobilize to end this war".

A majority of the public has caught on that Iraq is a disaster in little over a year. It took years before there was a meaningful antiwar movement in Vietnam, and a majority of Americans recognized that Vietnam was a mistake only after the war was over.

In '72, I was one of the very very few Republicans for McGovern. I campaigned for the Senator in the middle of a staunchly conservative, pro-war, Republican and conservative blue collar Democrat area. To say that working at the local McGovern office was "lonely" doesn't even begin to describe it. In 2004, I'm reading report after report that similarly located Kerry offices are flooded with volunteers, and the surrounding neighborhoods are chock full of Kerry signs and bumper stickers.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
29. I am going nuts! I'm going raving bonkers!
I knew exactly what would happen if we invaded Iraq. I knew that atrocities would occur. I knew that it would a long, miserable fight involving tens of thousands of civilian and American casualties. I knew all this not because I'm some expert. I knew it because I was alive and awake and paying attention in the 1960s and 1970s and 1980s and 1990s.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. They bullshit rationalize
They'll tell you straight up that things such as My Lai are aberrations, not the tip of the iceburg. They'll stick to that all day long. Many vets know better. I know better. They either simply don't want to dig up the facts, or they do know the facts, yet they choose to erase them in their minds. It's as if the facts never existed. They have built an illusion in their minds, and to them it is reality.
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. war is always a poor option
My Lai is an inevitable result of war, as was throwing captured soldiers out of helicopters at a thousand feet or so to loosen the tongues of the other prisoners, that happened also!

Abu Graib tortures happened as well and is also the inevitable result of war. Remember that Powell attempted to whitewash the evidence of My Lai when serving as an aide to the Joint Chiefs, despite assuring General Westmoreland that he would investigate fully.
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r_u_stuck2 Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. Read "People of the lie"
Edited on Sat Oct-30-04 05:40 PM by r_u_stuck2
"People of the lie" by M. Scott Peck, in the last section of the book he does an indepth analysis of the group psychology of how this happens and also gives tremendous insight into the cover-up. This analysis gives an understanding of how cover-ups propogate themselves.

He specifically addresses the my lai massacre.

This is a real eye opener. You should be able to find this book really cheap on e-bay or amazon, it was published years ago.

A small quote from the book:

Twenty years from now, when Vietnam has been largely forgotten, how easy it will be, with volunteers, to once again become involved in little foreign adventures. Such adventures will keep our military on its toes, provide it with real-life war games to test its prowess, and need not hurt or involve the average American citizen at all until it is too late...
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. I think Peck is right and throughout history there are many examples...
Arguably, the German people who "denied knowing what their government was up to"--despite all indications to the contrary-- manifest this as well. It is more than denial--but a really ingrained coping mechanism for those unable to square their imagined view of who they are as a people or as an individual with the most dramatic contradiction--whether or not they actively took part in the attocities or not.

I will never--to the day I die-- forget the image of the Vietnamese girl running naked through the streets to after being napalmed, nor the dead of My Lai. I will also never loose my shame that Americans rallied behind Lt. William L. Calley--just as they have those who are ultimately responsible for Abu Ghraib. You "younger DUers" should realize that Calley, responsbile for the brutal senseless murder of 300-500 Vietnamese served virtually no time at all, despite a life sentense. Here is the story in a nutshell:

During his trial, Calley got so much mail from the public that he spent $35 on an automatic letter opener. When court was not in session, he spent his time with John Sack who conducted long tape recorded interviews with Calley for a book to be written in Calley’s name. To protect Calley from too many media questions, Sack would fill the five court room chairs that had been allocated the defendant with “pretty young women” who were often invited back to his apartment for coffee. During the trial Calley underwent numerous psychological exams which all revealed that he was “normal” and did not suffer from and psychological disease that would account for his behavior. Although not revealed under oath, some of his doctors claimed that he told them that he thought of killing the Vietnamese people in the same way he thought of killing animals.

After deliberating for 79 hours and 57 minutes, the jury returned a verdict. They had found Calley guilty of premeditated murder of 22 of the villagers of My Lai. One juror claimed that they “had labored long and hard to find some way, some evidence, or some flaw in the testimony so we could find Lt. Calley innocent.” Before the jury reconvened to decide his punishment, Calley was allowed to address the jury and said, “Yesterday you stripped me of all my honor, please by your actions that you take here today, don’t strip future soldiers of their honor-I beg you.” The prosecution responded that Calley had stripped himself of his honor by murdering women and children.

After seven hours the jury sentenced Calley to life of hard labor. In the end, he only served only days in Fort Leavenworth, before being transferred back to Fort Benning, where he was placed under house arrest. His sentence was repeatedly reduced. Finally, he was pardoned by President Nixon. He was paroled in November, 1974.


more: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/myl_bcalleyhtml.htm
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. That is one of the best books I have ever read
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. Here's one perspective....... it was never honestly dealt with.
Just like here on DU, when there is a disagreement, such as the use of sexist terms, it hardly ever gets actually dealth with. Threads are locked, the subject is closed, and swept under the rug, and the animosity festers. Nothing gets resolved, people aren't heard, so it builds up until it erupts again later.

This is much like what happened with the atrocities of Vietnam. Part of the population wanted to talk about it, to bring it to light, and search for answers and resolution. Another part of the population considered it a slam on the troops, and "disloyal and "unpatriotic", so it was all hushed up, swept under the rug, and has been festering for over 30 years.

Now that the Vietnam generation is of age to start reaching levels of public leadership, it's erupting into the opn again. It was completely predictable.

Until we learn to deal with conflicts as adults, and work out disagreements rather than closing them off and pretending it doesn't exist, we'll keep having these eruptions from the past.

Pretty clear choice.

Kanary

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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. It wasn't just My Lai.......................
these atrocities were rampant in Viet Nam. There was a Repuke I used to work with that brought in pictures that he took in Nam. Dead Viet Cong that they'd pose with cigarettes in their mouths, putting there (ahem) schmeckle in their mouths, he even had a necklace made of human ears from the Viet Cong he'd killed. I've seen these picture, and this Jackass was PROUD of this. So much of this went on and "The Swifties" are nothing but lying pigs. Maybe they didn't see this stuff happen where they were, I don't know. But it DID HAPPEN! This much cannot be denied.
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Tim4319 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. That's ashame!
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Johnny 99 Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. No, My Lai is not an isolated incident
This was just one where they got caught.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. It's not forgotten really. For some people the brain is an organ of
convenience. The see what they want to see, they hear what they want to hear, and they remember things as they wish they were.

The expose on Tiger Force only came out in the past couple of years.

And for all of us old enough to remember Viet Nam, we say those pictures that were posted here today. We saw a lot of other pictures showing the death and devastation that was the direct result of that war. The girl running down the road naked after she was napalmed, the execution of the Vietcong fighter (an execution caught on camera of a young man being shot in the head by a Viet Namese soldier), the bodies all over My Lai. I've never forgotten those pictures or those stories, anymore than I will the pictures and stories from this horrible war of conquest and occupation. We lost in Viet Nam, we're going to lose here. And all the wasted lives, what about that? Will someone give them a wall in Washington as well?
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. and what would they name that wall?
would the paragraphs before entering tell us how they served our country in time of peril? Will they say they prevented the spread of terrorism against the people of America? Will the wall stretch from the mall to the beltway, as the war on terror is to be unending? It took a lot of dead sons/fathers/ mothers before the Vietnam war ended, with the advent of du and gulf war syndrome, the deaths will go on and on and on.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. That is a beautiful and powerful post.
I used to think that Vietnam was an abberation for the United States. Now, since we invaded Iraq, I realize that this kind of behavior is part of life. I no longer wonder why the German people went along with the Nazis, because I see and hear the same behavior from my countrymen today.

The truth is that a lot of people are really evil.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. thinking back
Edited on Sat Oct-30-04 06:25 PM by m berst
It was accepting that the policy had failed in Viet Nam that the right wingers had a difficult time doing more than anything. That "we" had "lost" - as though the country were their favorite football team - was a bitter pill to swallow, and they needed scapegoats. I really thought that the bitterness and anger would fade, but Reagan and Bush and their allies keep fanning the flames for partisan gain. They have kept the divisions that arose over the Viet Nam war in place and have been trying to stamp out anything and anybody that reminds them of it. Lies that wouldn't fly at all back then are getting new life now among people who weren't even born when the war was going on.

This is a lot like the way the Nazis used the "stabbed in the back" propaganda and Versailles treaty as justifications for driving Germany into fascism and war. An entire generation in Germany grew up with the idea that "they" - Jews and communists - had betrayed the country in 1918 and were responsible for everything that was worng in their lives. Now we have a whole generation here that has grown up convinced that "they" - ulp! us! - liberals, betrayed our country and are responsible for everything that is wrong now.

On edit - I highly recommend "The End of the Line: The Seige of Khe Sanh" by Robert Pisor.

<snip>

A war correspondent's searching account of a crucial battle in the Vietnam War.

It was the most spectacular battle of the entire war. For 6,000 trapped marines, it was a nightmare; for President Lyndon Johnson, an obsession. For General Westmoreland, it was to be the final vindication of technological weaponry; and for General Giap, the architect of the French defeat at Dien Bien Phu, it was a spectacular ruse masking troops moving south for the Tet offensive.

In a compelling narrative, Robert Pisor sets forth the history, the politics, the strategies, and, above all, the desperate reality of the battle that became the turning point of the United States's involvement in Vietnam.

<snip>

http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/fall01/032269.htm
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. For the same reason that there are still WWII veterans in Japan
who insist that the Japanese army committed no atrocities and who send death threats to any vet who appears in the media admitting that he personally committed or witnessed atrocities.

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. Did the U.S. Commit War Crimes in Vietnam?
a few very good articles..

http://www.villagevoice.com/print/issues/0438/turse.php

From the National Archives: New proof of Vietnam War atrocities
Swift Boat Swill

by Nicholas Turse
September 21st, 2004 11:40 AM

John Kerry is being pilloried for his shocking Senate testimony 34 years ago that many U.S. soldiers—not just a few "rogues"—were committing atrocities against the Vietnamese. U.S. military records that were classified for decades but are now available in the National Archives back Kerry up and put the lie to his critics. Contrary to what those critics, including the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, have implied, Kerry was speaking on behalf of many soldiers when he testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971, and said this:


They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam, in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

The archives have hundreds of files of official U.S. military investigations of such atrocities committed by American soldiers. I've pored over those records—which were classified for decades—for my Columbia University dissertation and, now, this Voice article. The exact number of investigated allegations of atrocities is unknown, as is the number of such barbaric incidents that occurred but weren't investigated. Some war crimes, like the Tiger Force atrocities exposed last year by The Toledo Blade, have only come to light decades later. Others never will. But there are plentiful records to back up Kerry's 1971 testimony point by point. Following (with the names removed or abbreviated) are examples, directly from the archives:

..more..

-----------------

http://www.accuracy.org/press_releases/PR082404.htm

Did the U.S. Commit War Crimes in Vietnam?

DAVID MacMICHAEL, dmacm@adelphia.net

A disabled veteran of ten years active Marine Corps service in Korea, MacMichael was a Defense Department consultant from 1965 to 1969 in Southeast Asia. During most of that period he was attached to the office of the Special Assistant for Counter-Insurgency at the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok. In that capacity he reviewed classified reports from the U.S. mission in Vietnam. MacMichael said today: "Some Vietnam veterans are outraged that presidential candidate Kerry in his 1971 Senate testimony spoke of atrocities reportedly committed by U.S. military forces in Vietnam. There is more than a little substance to the charge. The Toledo Blade won the 2004 Pulitzer Prize by revealing that in 1967 the 101st Airborne Division created a 'Tiger Force' ordered to kill all Vietnamese males in Quang Ngi Province. According to official U.S. Army records unearthed by the Blade reporters, Tiger Force killed many hundreds of Vietnamese and, yes, soldiers of that force did proudly ware necklaces of the ears they cut from their victims. The Army did investigate and identified the perpetrators of the crimes but chose not to prosecute them." www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTI... >

MacMichael added: "In 1968, Colonel George S. Patton III -- son of the World War II general -- then commanding a brigade in Vietnam, sent out Christmas cards showing dead Vietnamese stacked up Abu Ghraib-fashion with the message 'Peace on Earth' and signed by him and his wife.... And then, of course, there was My Lai. There, C Company of the 11th Brigade of the Americal Division in 1967 entered that village and methodically executed between 347 and 504 of its unarmed inhabitants, men, women and children. At least 100 of them were lined up in an irrigation ditch by Lt. William Calley and shot to death by his GIs. The slaughter only ended when the shocked crew of an Army helicopter gunship landed and forced C Company at gunpoint to cease and desist. My Lai was far from an exceptional case. In fact, it might never have come to light had not a troubled Americal Division mortarman, Tom Glen, who had not been present, heard about it and, after rotating out of Vietnam to the U.S., wrote to the U.S. commander in Vietnam, General Westmoreland. His letter only mentioned My Lai as 'part of the abusive pattern that had become routine in the Americal Division.'"


DAVID CLINE, daoudc@aol.com, www.veteransforpeace.org, www.vvaw.org, www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html
Currently national president of Veterans for Peace and a longtime coordinator of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Cline is a disabled combat veteran. He said today: "After 30 years, some people are trying to whitewash what happened in Vietnam."


S. BRIAN WILLSON, bw@brianwillson.com, www.brianwillson.com
Willson is a former Air Force captain who served in Vietnam. He said today: "As head of a 40-man USAF combat security unit in Vietnam, I was separately tasked to assess 'success' of targeted bombings. I discovered egregious war crimes -- daylight terror bombings of undefended fishing and rice farming villages resulting in mass murders and maimings of hundreds of residents. Subsequently, in conversations with members of the 9th Infantry Division, I heard bravado about slaughter of 11,000 'enemy' from ground operations, though the vast majority proved to be unarmed civilians."

....more....


------------------------------------------------------

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Tiger_force_120803.htm

Tiger Force (Vietnam) Uncovered and Exposed

Witness to Vietnam atrocities never knew about investigation

THE NEW YORKER, NOVEMBER 10, 2003
Talk of the Town, p.41

<snip>
At the height of the rampage, the Tiger Force platoon was operating a few dozen miles from a Quang Ngai hamlet that the Army called My Lai 4, and where, in March, 1968, more than five hundred Vietnamese civilians were massacred by a task force whose platoon leaders included William L. Calley, Jr. The Blade quoted a law professor as stating that My Lai might have been avoided if the senior officer corps had acted on complaints of military brutality in Quang Ngai that had been filed by at least two soldiers. The Blade further reported that in the early nineteen-seventies, after Calley's conviction for the murder of twenty-two Vietnamese civilians, in March, 1971, and while the Army was publicly insisting that My Lai was an isolated incident, senior officials in the White House and the Pentagon were provided with periodic reports on the Tiger Force inquiry.

In fact, while the Army was conducting its internal investigation of My Lai, it discovered that a second large massacre had taken place on the same day in the same area, in a hamlet known as My Khe 4, but Lieutenant General William R. Peers, who had served for more than two years in Vietnam and who led the investigation, publicly denied that there were any other incidents. "It was not brought out to me in the evidence," Peers told reporters at the close of the inquiry, and he was not challenged on that assertion, even though two Army officers who had been present at My Khe had already been charged with war crimes. Twenty years later, the Army declassified an April, 1970, memorandum to the General responding to an article I had written about My Lai. It noted that I did not appear to "possess any substantive information concerning the suppression or cover-up aspects of the incident," but that I was being aided in my reporting by someone with access to the official records. It concluded, "The need to terminate such assistance to Mr. Hersh becomes increasingly important when consideration is given to the use Mr. Hersh would make of any information he obtained concerning command reaction and efforts of suppression."

John Dean, the former White House counsel to President Nixon, acknowledged that he had received a series of reports from the Army on the status of pending war-crimes investigations, including My Lai, but that they gave no hint of the extent of the crimes. "It doesn't get to the top unless there's a problem," he told me last month. "I had no knowledge of My Lai"-that is, its full horror--"until it hit the press."

In war-crimes investigations, the disparity between the facts and the military's official versions of them has repeatedly been exposed, often with bruising consequences, by an independent press. The Blade's extraordinary investigation of Tiger Force, however, remains all but invisible. None of the four major television networks have picked it up (although CBS and NBC have been in touch with the Blade), and most major newspapers have either ignored the story or limited themselves to publishing an Associated Press summary. In a column published on the first day of the series, Ron Royhab, the Blade's executive editor, pointedly wrote that the decision to run the Vietnam stories now had "nothing to do" with the current military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. As he told me, "We can't have this kind of information and sit on it, because then we'd be a party to a coverup." There is, of course, a hesitancy in time of war--and, in particular, during an increasingly unpopular war against an entrenched guerrilla enemy, to publish stories that could be interpreted as undermining military morale. And news organizations instinctively debunk scoops nom their competitors, especially those in smaller markets. It may be that others in the media are planning to do their own Tiger Force investigations. Let's hope so. Terrible things always happen in war, and the responsibility of the press is to do exactly what the Blade has done-to find, verify, and publish the truth.

-Seymour M Hersh

----------------------------

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=51&ItemID=6217

From Vietnam to Fallujah

. by Fran Schor September 13, 2004

The recent controversy surrounding the "Swift Boat Veterans" ad challenging John Kerry's Vietnam record and his later statements as a leader of Vietnam Veterans against the War (VVAW) have fallen into predictable partisan perspectives. Republicans and their media attack machine still insist that Kerry's medals are suspect and his VVAW activities were treasonous. Kerry and the Democrats, in turn, have found further documentary evidence and eye-witness accounts to support his version of the Vietnam incidents. As far as Kerry's 1971 testimony about US atrocities in Vietnam, Kerry has reiterated that he was just recounting reports from the Winter Soldier Investigations. In addition, he tried earlier to deflect criticism of his VVAW positions by claiming that some of his statements were overzealous and part of the heated rhetoric of the times. In effect, the Bush Administration and Republicans have tried to deny that atrocities took place while Kerry and the Democrats have tried to minimize or marginalize them.

For those who have studied the historical record of the US prosecution of the war in Southeast Asia, neither the Republicans nor Democrats have confronted the full measure of those atrocities and what their legacy is especially in the war on Iraq. While most studies of the war in Southeast Asia acknowledge that 4 times the tonnage of bombs was dropped on Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos than that used by the US in all theaters of operation during World War II, only a few, such as James William Gibson's The Perfect War: Technowar in Vietnam, analyze the full extent of such bombing. Not only were thousands of villages in Vietnam totally destroyed, but massive civilian deaths, numbering close to 3 million, resulted in large part from such indiscriminate bombing. Integral to the bombing strategy was the use of weapons that violated international law, such as napalm and anti-personnel fragmentation bombs. As a result of establishing free-fire zones where anything and everything could be attacked, including hospitals, US military operations led to the deliberate murder of mostly civilians.

While Rumsfeld and the Pentagon have touted the "clean" weapons used in Iraq, the fact is that aerial cluster bombs and free-fire zones have continued to be part of present day military operations. Villages throughout Iraq, from Hilla to Fallujah, have borne and are bearing US attacks that take a heavy civilian toll. Occasionally, criticisms of the type of ordnance used in Iraq found its way into the mainstream press, especially when left-over cluster bomblets looking like yellow food packages blow up in children's hands or depleted uranium weapons are dropped inadvertently on British soldiers. However, questions about the immorality of "shock and awe" bombing strategy have been buried deeper than any of the cluster bomblets.

In Vietnam, a primary ground war tactic was the "search and destroy" mission with its over-inflated body counts. As Christian Appy forcefully demonstrated in Working Class War: American Combat Soldiers and Vietnam, such tactics were guaranteed to produce atrocities. Any revealing personal account of the war in Vietnam, such as Ron Kovic's Born on the Fourth of July, underscores how those atrocities took their toll on civilians and US soldiers, like Kovic. Of course, certain high-profile atrocities, such as My Lai, achieved prominent media coverage (almost, however, a year after the incident.) Nonetheless, My Lai was seen either as an aberration and not part of murderous campaigns such as the Phoenix program with its thousands of assassinations or a result of a few bad apples, like a Lt. Calley, who nonetheless received minor punishment for his command of the massacre of hundreds of women and children. Moreover, as reported in Tom Engelhardt's The End of Victory Culture, "65% of Americans claimed not to be upset by the massacre" (224). Is it, therefore, not surprising that Noam Chomsky asserted during this period that the US had to undergo some sort of de- nazification in order to regain some moral sensitivity to what US war policy had produced in Vietnam


..more..
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
23. My Lai has not been forgotten
there's a whole couple of generations who don't know anything about it. I remember seeing and hearing it reported in the news as the trial went on. I also knew vets years later that talked of all they had seen in Nam. They had horrible stories to tell and some of them weren't right in the head after that. War never goes away for these people because they can never escape the visions that reappear of all they have witnessed.

An additional reading assignment should also concern Operation Phoenix.
http://www.serendipity.li/cia/operation_phoenix.htm

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
24. My Lai was only the tiniest tip of the iceberg.
The B-52's committed far more atrocities..unless one thinks that blowing people to smithereens at a distance is somehow less an atrocity than doing it at close range.

Just watched a film last night from the Discovery Times channel - 500,000 people are currently suffering from the effects of the dioxin in Agent Orange. There are large areas of Vietnam that will be habitable again in only..700 years. But, of course, we noble fighters for freedom would never, ever, use chemical weapons.

Not to mention the results of "Free Fire Zones", assasinations, and other "regrettable mistakes" made by our glorious military.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I wish Kerry was the same Kerry he was in '71. It's time to DEAL with all
this, and work it through, and finally grow up as a nation.

Then *maybe* there could be some growth forward, and less chance of going to war again.

It's time to face our own sins, and own them.

From that program...... are those 500,000 people Vietnamese, or American military?

Regrettable mistakes, indeed.......

Pah.

Kanary
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. In answer to your question.
It was 500,000 Vietnamese, many children who are suffering with birth defects, cancer, etc., from the effects of Agent Orange. As was pointed out in the program, it is usual for those poluting an area to clean up. The U.S. government has recognized the claims of our vets about the devastating effect of the dioxin and is recompensing them. But, of course, Vietnamese claims are still being "studied".

It is a great video, Canadian made, that also covers the destruction and casualties caused by unexploded WWI (ONE!) munitions in the area around Verdun. Also, mines in Bosnia that will take decades to remove, and the unbelievable cost of Stalingrad in lives and a guy who digs up German remains and notifies the kin.

I think it's called "The Remnants of War". Have the Kleenex at hand if you see it, especially the Vietnamese segment.
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prairie populist Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
26. I think the swifties' anger
over Kerry publicly discussing those things many long years ago has seethed and fed on itself for decades. Some of those guys wanted to be the kinda WWII heroes the media myth makers had portrayed after that war. Someone has to be to blame when our plans miss the mark.

All of us who had loved ones over there recognize the hellhole Vietnam was.

My uncle left for Vietnam in 1969 as a small-town Nebraska farm kid and came back addicted to heroin. He couldn't talk about the stuff he saw there for over 20 years, and when he finally was able, only when he was drinking.
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. In tribute to my fellow Viet Nam vets
We must remember our heroes
Hugh Thompson, Lawrence Coburn, Glen Androtta


On March 16,1968 these three landed a helicopter between Vietnam villagers and American troops led by Lt. Calley in a village called My Lai. They trained their weapons on the soldiers thus ending the massacre. It was the ability to do the right thing, even at the risk of personal safety, that guided them to do what they did. May they be remembered long after those who led us to evil are forgotten.
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prairie populist Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. If I remember right
at the time, or maybe in the follow-up investigation, their patriotism and loyalty was also wrongly called into question by Nixon's henchmen, just the same as O'Neill and the Nixon White House jumped all over Kerry.

Am I recalling things correctly?
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
34. It's called rewriting history
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StupidFOX Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
36. I never knew what goes on in "Free-Fire Zones" until Kerry mentioned it
"Shoot anything that moves?!" That's FREAKING NUTS.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Not quite.
A "free-fire zone" was (technically) an area where there were NO OTHER FRIENDLY troops. No ARVN. No USARV. It meant that you could not expect help, but you could expect hostile forces.

Now, when you take that literal meaning and combine it with the FACT that 'war is a very scary activity' and going on patrol is one of the scariest pastimes in a war zone, you can imagine how the troops reacted. This became the part of the culture of Vietnam.
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Wilber_Stool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
39. I bet you never heard of this one
Edited on Sun Oct-31-04 03:18 PM by Wilber_Stool
Tiger Force.

This broke in late 2003. I just happened on it a few mounths ago. A good read.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE

Oops. I guess this has been posted. Missed it on the first read through.
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upsidedown Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
40. I came across someone's blog the other day . . .
at Livejournal and I was at first repelled by her loving Dubya icon, but then by this entry she'd written:

"And so my day is complete: FUCK YOU JOHN KERRY.
I hate that son of a bitch. I really, really do. I fucking hate that son of a bitch. I hate him more than anyone I can think of, actually. I hate him more than Scott Peterson. Mhm. I hate him more than Saddam Hussein, even, I think. Because I mean, we saw Saddam for the scuzzbucket he was. Kerry's still lying to half the country and getting away with his bullshit. I hate him. Fuck that son of a bitch."

I was completely blown away by her anger. Then I scrolled down a bit and she says that her dad is a Vietnam vet and that Kerry spread lies about her dad and other honorable vets and that he deserves to be tortured like the Vietnam POWs were.

I couldn't believe her outright hatred for John Kerry. It really just threw me for a loop that people can't or won't accept the fact that there were many atrocities during that war . . . and that Kerry was a very brave man for speaking out against them.
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