80% of the U.S. Constitution is derived from the Bible

[prolesunited]

Ran across this comment from a preacher on why he was supporting that great "Christian" leader Bush. Anybody ever heard this before? What support is there for this statement and how can it be debunked?

[RoyGBiv]

1. Debunking it?

Oh, I dunno, maybe by READING IT.

Sheesh.

I've heard of some stupid things coming from preachers' mouths, but that has to take the cake.

[Birthmark]

2. Is that by weight or volume?

Fun fact: There were no active clergymen at the Constitutional Convention. Zero. Think about that.

[jdj]

19. probably about 80% of the bible is derivative of some earlier

cult.

The other 20% was put in there by the monks when they transcribed it.

[GreenPoet64]

35. True . .. read the Leiden Hymns by the Egyptians . . .

you will recognize many "biblical" passages there written thousands of years before the old testament. Even the sacred "I am" name for god is written there.

[goddess40]

3. every religion share the basic stories and rules

There rules and stories that help people live together.

[aquart]

12. Uh, sure. But the constitution is rooted in English common law.

Its purest root is probably to the Magna Carta, the guarantee of rights forced out of King John by a bunch of noblemen.

For the rest, our founding fathers were very big members of the Enlightenment, which was full of guys called Deists, not Christians, or, god forbid, Jews.

And every one of them hated like poison the English laws forcing attendance at Church of England services. That's why we're not allowed to make anybody go to church or pray or even close. They HATED those laws.

Just thought I'd mention it.

[juajen]

39. According to my historical expert, Mr. juajen

The Consitution was taken largely from Iraquois, and the Declaration of Independence taken largely from Magna Carta. Of course, there were other influences, but he says, in the main, that this is so. So speaketh he, my lord and master historian.

[Bucky]

45. Sadly, Mr Juajen is wrong. The Iroquois connection is urban legend

The transcripts of the Constitutional Convention taken by Madison, and a few other less prolific recorders, never mention the Iroquois Confederation once. Of all the Founders at the Philadelphia Convention, only Ben Franklin had any familiarity with the Iroquois's constitution (which is an odd power-sharing document that permanently assigns particular roles to each of the five founding nations for when they hold their all-nations meeting). But Franklin was not terribly influential at the Convention of 1787. He was there to add glamour to the final outcome, but seems to have dozed off thru several of the meetings.

The models for the Constitution were primarily the state constitutions, English common law, the Swiss Confederation, the alliances tried out by several Lowland states, and the Framers' readings on classical republics in Greece. Some northern Italian states' experiences with republicanism were referred to also, but mostly as cautionary tales about how a republic can become corrupt.

[HarrietBrown]

57. You can read Madison's notes on the debates at this site

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/debates/debcont.htm

It is a great read--the discussions concerning slavery are particularly interesting. Although sometimes boring, the notes really are a must-read for anyone interested in the constitution.

Another good site on the Constitution is http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/constitution.html.

[susanna]

58. Based on that, It sounds to me like Franklin

might have brought forward the Iroquois model as a conceptual basis for our separation of powers/checks and balances. Do those concepts exist in English Common Law, etc.? Forgive my lack of knowledge, but I had never heard of the Iroquois document before today. It is very intriguing, considering what you mention it contained (the power-sharing concepts).

[juajen]

40. According to my historical expert, Mr. juajen

The Consitution was taken largely from Iraquois, and the Declaration of Independence taken largely from Magna Carta. Of course, there were other influences, but he says, in the main, that this is so. So speaketh he, my lord and master historian.

[lawladyprof]

53. Perhaps Bush is our King John--eom

[trotsky]

4. Ha!

Yeah, because the bible is so full of stories about representative democracies and freedom of religion and civil rights.

Who the hell knows what he's getting that number from - I know it ain't real, that's for sure.

[elehhhhna]

56. Does the Magna Charta ring a bell? Anybody?

[MADem]

5. 80 percent of the Bible

...is derived from Jewish and pagan tales!!!

[brainshrub]

7. Wouldn't that be 100%

[trotsky]

21. Naw, the earliest Christians

made up the rest of it to make sure their Messiah met all the proper qualifications.

[teamster633]

42. Is this kinda like how we've caught 75% of the Al Qaeda leadership?

[Maddy McCall]

6. What a fucking idiot. But let's say he really does believe that...

then how does he reconcile contitutionality with the Patriot Act?

[ScrewyRabbit]

8. Yeah, all those things Jesus said about the right to bear arms

He was a regular gun-toting NRA member, that Jesus...

[Seabiscuit]

26. Right, and Jesus justified throwing the money changers out of the

temple by citing the "commerce clause" and "separation of church and state" clause. Jesus was very prophetic, 'ya know. :)

[katusha]

9. and yeah verily the lord decreed that thou

shalt have a bicameral congress. - 2nd book of dumbass third verse.

[gumby]

10. Where ya bin?

You gave a great example of why almost half of this country supports Bush. It's a "Christian Nation," doncha know?

Ever heard of Wall Builders? http://www.wallbuilders.com/

Then you can read the "other side" http://yuricareport.com/

be sure to google reconstructionism.

Welcome to Bush's 'Murika.

[flyingfysh]

11. there is no support for this at all

There are many long scholarly books about the origins of the Constitution, and the Bible appears nowhere as a source.

Religion is mentioned only in a negative fashion: that there can be no religious test for Federal office. In the amendments, the Bill of Rights specified that Congress was not allowed to pass any law respecting an establishment of religion. How is any of this derived from the Bible?

If you really want to know what people were thinking about while debating the constitution, see the 2-volume set "The Debate on the Constitution", available from the Library of America, www.loa.org. This has extensive quotations from original sources, including letters from citizens to newspapers about all this.

[DuctapeFatwa]

13. Actually, it was stolen from the Great Law of the Iroquois

When Eurocolonialists decide to steal a continent, they are nothing if not thorough.

Of course, what goes around comes around, and the continent is now being reclaimed, if not by the Iroquois, by millions and millions of rejectionist dead-ender remnant descendants of southernmore tribes, who are working hard to make sure your house gets built cheap, your lunch gets there fast, and your cute beige grandchildren will make you feel much better about it when they sit on your lap and teach you Spanish. Reconquista. :evilgrin:

[Bucky]

46. Um, wrong. Passionately written, but wrong.

silly boy

[JNelson6563]

50. It's true

much of our constitution was lifted from that of the Native Americans.

Julie

[DuctapeFatwa]

51. LOL you don't like to admit it? Why is that?

http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/

http://www.kahonwes.com/iroquois/document1.html

http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20040927-32.html

[Bucky]

61. OK, taking your citations one by one...

The first site ( http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu ) argues that there are parallels between the Iroquois' Great Law of Peace and the US Constitution. It boils down its arguments to these discussion points:

* If a new group moves into an area already successfully occupied by an existing group, does the first group have any influence on the new group?
* Understanding the relationship between the environment and cultural development helps students recognize the historical context within which the Iroquois Confederacy influenced the Founding Fathers.

Then it concludes with a compare and contrast assignment:

Working as historians, students will examine the Great Law of Peace and the US Constitution. During this lesson, students will compare and contrast these two documents and form their own conclusions about the influence of the Iroquois on the Founding Father's ideas about democracy.

But at no time does this site state there was a connection between the Great Law and the 1787 Constitution. what they argue is that because the two documents arose under similar circumstances they have some similar features. But they also have some radically different features. Principally, the Great Law is a treaty between sovereign nations--more akin to the UN Charter than the USA.

But more importantly, the Framers of the Constitution talked at length and in great depth about the sources of their ideas and understanding of how to make a confederation of republics work. They recorded their thoughts and citations with great care. There is not a mention even once in the entire extensive records of the Constitutional Convention at Philadelphia that mentions the Iroquois confederation--not one. They cite every source they refer to--English precedents like Cromwell and the Glorious Revolution, the Swiss conferation, the sundry arrangments under the German states, the elected monarchs of Poland, the merchant republics of northern Italy, and of course the experiences of ancient Greece and Rome in running kingless nations.

Yet they never mention the Iroquois once. You can call that an Iroquois influence if you want to, but


The second site ( http://www.kahonwes.com/iroquois/document1.html ) is a story about how politicians, not scholars, gave recognition to the Iroquois confederation as the "first democracy" in North America. Of course most Indian nations were democracies, the Great Law was simply the first formalized and recorded document of how to operate a confederation of five democracies. But the source is factually wrong when it states:

It is no coincidence that the U.S. Constitution strikingly resembles, in both principle and form, the Great Law of Peace of the Six Nations Confederacy of the Iroquois League. When the Founding Fathers looked for examples of effective government and human liberty upon which to model a Constitution to unite the thirteen colonies, they found it in this New World society -- not in Europe, usually considered the cradle of modern civilization.

But again, if they "found it" here in America, how come they never mentioned it. They mentioned everything else they studied and learned from; why would they NOT mention the Iroquois? They certainly had a formal democracy 300 years before we even had a republic. But there's still no facts on the pages you cite that support your claims.

I have a lot of respect for Dan Inouye, but he's not a constitutional historian. His committee made some wonderful pronouncements honoring the traditions of some overlooked Americans. But the Iroquois were overlooked by the Founding Fathers as much as they were by everyone up until Inouye's committee.



The third source ( http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20040927-32.html ) points out that Ben Franklin, who was at the 1787 Convention, was familiar with the Iroquois confederacy. But what it doesn't point out was that Franklin talked about the Iroquois in the 1750s, more than 30 years before the Constitution. At the Convention itself, Franklin did very little speaking. He was past his prime, snoozed thru some sessions according to Madison, and showed occasional glimpses of cluelessness. His proposals to the final document (such as having a three-person presidency) generally didn't much consideration. If he ever did mention the Iroquois Great Law off the Convention floor, the people he spoke to never made note of it or brought up his points in later debate.


Now none of this is intended to say that there's no point in studying the Great Law of Peace. It's a valuable part of American history and letters. You can't understand many key principles of how democracy in American culture works without an examination of how the Great Law shaped the input and "buy-in" of sundry power groups within their confederation. It's good and informative history.

But that's it. It's not part of our legal history. Claims that the Great Law impacted in any way the work of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 are spurious. It's a nice inclusive, multicultural nod to our country's foundations. But that's it. It shows us how people on these lands functioned and cooperated 600 years ago. But in the end it is only a treaty, not a document of union, and it is not in any direct way connected to our current government.

[rusty charly]

14. "The government is not, in any sense, founded...

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." - John Adams, under the Washington Administration.


An ancient and unnecessarily contentious issue was brought into the public eye yet again in a recent controversy in Montgomery, Ala., The object of dispute was a monument on the grounds of a Montgomery courthouse sporting the Ten Commandments; the monument was challenged as an obvious endorsement of the Christian religion in a place where the Constitution, not the Bible, should be the single and ultimate judge of conduct. The case was taken to the Supreme Court, who ordered the monument to be removed, and, rightfully, so it was.



http://atheism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.collegian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/10/08/3f83a2c8ecc5b

[Kanary]

15. This'll drive 'em nutz.... the Iroquois had much more influence

One link, maybe not the best, but one that I grabbed quickly:
http://tuscaroras.com/pages/aboconEX.html

It's something I've been wanting to read up on for quite a while now...

Too bad we were taught better in school about our own history, eh? This is something we should know right off the tops of our little heads.....

Kanary

[starroute]

24. Francis Jennings was the expert on this

I don't know whether his books are still available, but they're the original source for everything else that's been written on the Iroquois and democracy.

[Kanary]

27. Thanks for the name! Found some on the 'net.

Some good reading:
http://discussions.seniornet.org/cgi-bin/WebX?[e-mail].534543@.596ba6e2

I've been wanting to find info on this, as I have an elderly friend who immigrated here, and was interested when I mentioned the Iroquois link to the Constitution. Maybe I can print out some of it.

I would really like to find a book on this on tape, as he is legally blind, and listens to books on tape.

But, with this author's name, maybe I can find something for him through Books For The Blind.

I appreciate the input!

Kanary

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. Sorry, but this is a myth...

there's no evidence to support any Iroquois influence on the Constitution (most of the members of the Constitutional Convention were rather ignorant of Native Americans in general), except perhaps that Benjamin Franklin may have gotten the idea of the separation of powers from the Iroquois Confederacy. That's about the only grain of truth in this particular fable, I'm afraid.

[Kanary]

28. Curious.......

OUt of the three people who posted about this, why did you choose me to put down?

I'm just lucky?

I look more like a target?

What?

Actually, there is quite a bit of evidence, if you will also look at the other posts on it, and we all do what we can do.

So long.....

Kanary

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. Yours happened to be the one I saw...

and Madison (who wrote most of the Constitution) practically quotes Locke and Rousseau verbatim. The influence of the centuries of English common law since Magna Charta is also quite clear, as are the influence of the English Parliamentary system (an upper house, appointed, and a lower, elected, analogous to Lords and Commons), and much more besides. There is, however, no evidence of the influence of the so-called Iroquois constitution. I'm something of a student of history, and this idea caught my interest some time ago, but after all I've read on the subject I am quite convinced that it has no basis in actual reality.

[Kanary]

32. You're entitled to your opinon.

Others are entitled to theirs.

So long now..

Kanary

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. Bollocks.

The US Constitution derives from the principles of the British common law and the political ideas of Locke and Rousseau for the most part, along with the contributions of men like Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, and Thomas Paine. The Bible has less than nothing to do with it (and most of the architects of the Constitution were Deists and freethinkers anyway).

[markdd]

17. Was it the Sermon on the Mount

Where Jesus pointed out that slaves were only 3/5 of a white citizen? Or is the the other 20% of the sourcing?

[LiberalFighter]

18. Is god mentioned?

Does it have the 10 commandments?
Does it require any elected officials to belong to a church?
Does it mention the bible? OT or NT?
Does it mention Jesus?
Does it require legislation to meet biblical requirements?

Why are legislative powers granted to Congress instead of the churches or god?

Does the bible mention anything about Presidents? Vice-Presidents? Senators? Representatives? Supreme Court?

Does the bible mention anything about electing their god?

Does the bible promote the progress of science and useful arts? Establishing Post Offices?

Where in the oath "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." does it include god or any religious requirement?

[H2O Man]

20. The US Constitution

like the Articles of Confederation before it, were in large part the result of the influence of two things: the Haudenosaunee, or Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy, who met with and influenced in particulat Franklin, Jefferson, and Adams; and also progressive French social theorists. From the Iroquois came the ideas such as a confederate state, with separation of powers, and the federal-state relationship, and freedoms of speech and religion. The French in particular had a romantic, not entirely accurate view of Indians as existing in a garden of eden, and had fascinating thoughts on "the rights of men."

The bible had remarkably little to do with the formation of the US Constitution. It did play a role in the lives of some of the important figures in that era, but had no more direct role.

[burrowowl]

37. Montaignes' Esprit des Lois

was a great influence, especially through Jefferson and Ben Franklin.
I would say that the stoic Marcus Aureleus had a great influence, without libre aritre how could there be a democracy for all, not just landowners as in Anthens and early US.
Long live humanism!

[kodi]

59. a third would be aristotle's "politics" & wasn't he a christian in 350bc?

good show, few know how influential the the iroquois confederacy was on both the albany plan of 1754 and the US Constitution.

we can thank ben franklin for that.

any dunderhead can read aristotle's "politics" and see the US government staring back at you from the pages.

and we can thank james madison for the Constitution itself.

[NightTrain]

22. I've always heard that it was based on the Magna Carta.

[Seabiscuit]

29. Yes, it was, and the Magna Carta

was based on the common law system introduced in England in 1066 by William the Conqueror, leader of the Norman conquest. So it really comes from the Normans, who are French. IOW, we owe not only our Statue of Liberty, our notions of liberty, equality, fraternity, but also our very own Constitution to the French.

So Wolfowitz can go choke on his "Freedom fries".

[starroute]

33. That's not what I've heard

The Magna Carta got dug out and turned into a big deal in the 19th century, but it had pretty well been forgotten until then. And it never had much to do with democracy in the first place.

The Magna Carta represented an attempt by the most powerful of the English feudal lords to prevent King John from centralizing power in his own hands. As such, it included a few phrases that the 19th century could identify with their own ideas about resistance to tyranny, but its framers never intended it to apply to ordinary people. In fact, the common folk mostly preferred King John's rule to their of their local barons.

England around 1200 AD was undergoing a transition from rule by the whim of the powerful to the rule of law. John's father, Henry II, had done a lot to establish a regular system of courts, and John was continuing that trend. This idea of a government of impartial laws is what really lies at the root of our Constitution, and the feudal lords who were opposed to it were the corporate CEO's of their era, hoping to remain unaccountable to anyone.

So screw the Magna Carta, and let's all hear it for King John.

[burrowowl]

38. Magna Carta for the

Bill of Rights part.

[H2O Man]

49. Certainly the Magna Carta was a huge part ....

It was the foundation, so to speak. But the Founding Fathers, for all their faults, built something beautiful upon that foundation. The French were clearly a significant part. But it is equally important to look at what people influenced the French .... the Native Americans, and in particular the Iroquois, were the model for "the natural man."

Also, think of the Iroquois Confederacy: there were six nations (or "tribes") that covered a large section of the northeast. The six nations each had their own council of chiefs. And the elders, (or "Wisdom Keepers") sat on the Grand Council of Chiefs. This would be the idea behind the 13 colonies becoming the 13 states, with a federal government uniting them. Some of Franklin's writings are clear on the borrowing of the Iroquois' ideas. Further, the top thinkers, (Franklin, Jefferson, and Adams) all met with the chiefs in Albany and Philly.

Friend Harvey Arden wrote a great article on this in the 9-87 National Geographic. He also wrote a fantastic book, "The Wisdom Keepers," with conversations with top traditional Indian leaders across North America.

[prolesunited]

23. Thanks all!

You gave me so much ammunition that perhaps I could write him a letter to set him straight. :-)

[NinetySix]

30. When someone tries to link the Constitution with the Ten Commandments

point out to them that only three of the Ten Commandments are US law.

Thou shalt not steal. Theft is illegal.
Thou shalt not kill. Murder is also illegal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness. The law calls this perjury.

The law says nothing about idolatry, covetousness, adultery, disrespect for one's parents, or graven images. In some areas there are "blue laws" regarding working or shopping on Sundays, but these are entirely local issues.

The Bible is only law to Orthodox Jews, and then only parts of what Christians call the Bible (and some of the most obscure parts, at that).



on edit - have a look at this:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.pdf

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. You mean the apportionment of Reps and Senators to states is

in the Bible? :crazy:

[Zero Gravitas]

36. Fundies don't read the Constitution

Tell them that it does not mention God or Jesus once and they get all pissy. Tell them that the only mention of religion is that there shall be no religious trust for a position of trust under of the US Government (and of course the 1st Amendment) and they get really upset.

They need to make their peace with reality.

[porphyrian]

41. It's true, 80% of the words appear in the bible...

...just not consecutively.

[Cat Atomic]

43. Did you know that 98% of all preachers suffer from mental disorders?

I have as much evidence for that claim as your preacherman has for his own.

People like that are very odd. For them, fact is meaningless. Belief is all that matters. You don't need objective evidence to back up your claims, you just have to state them forcefully and 'decide' they're true.

[prolesunited]

60. Well, I guess that's what "faith" is all about,

isn't it?

[doubleplusgood]

44. We have a Senate, NOT a Sanhedrin

Oh, please ! The concept of the Senate came from pagan Rome. The concept of democracy, and the word itself, came from pagan Greece. Nowhere in the Bible can you find any mention of voting, representative government or anything else remotely related to the democratic process.

[Bucky]

47. Billl of Rights' "separation" principle is from Jesus's "render" quote

Jesus said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's." Madison said "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Such smart dudes they were.

[BMJ]

48. 85% of all statistics are made up...

... 40% of all people know that! :silly:

[NoPasaran]

52. The Bible clearly reserves Congress' right

The Bible clearly reserves Congress' right to issue letters of marque and reprisal. It's right there in the Book of Armaments.

[tom_paine]

54. Nothing to debunk, the usual Bushevik Lie

The men who wrote the Constitution were at the tail end of the 200 years of witch/heresy trial and burnings (which, if you think about it was just the same bunch of evangelicals killing the same bunch of liberals all those years ago).

Many of them, like Tom Paine, were Deists and most of them were terrified of Church and State merging...as it is now in Imperial Amerika.

[pippin]

55. Absolute Rot!

[Morning Dew]

62. Oh, absolutely true. The constitution was lifted from the good book

Article II
Section I

The executive power shall rest in a God. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four years, and, together with the Holy Spirit, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows: . . .

from Section 3

... He shall from time to time give Moses Information of the State of the Tribes Of Israel . . .

Section 4

The God, Holy Spirit and all civil officers of the Tribes of Israel, shall be removed from office on impeachment for and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors


Amendment 1

The Bible shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; . . .

[NEDem]

63. Saw a great bumper sticker today:

"Christianity has Pagan DNA"

My wife and I laughed our asses off at that one.

[Nicky Scarfo]

64. Um, both Franklin and Jefferson were deists and rejected

Christianity, but it would be nice if we didn't live in a society where we felt like we NEEDED to reject this religious bullshit.