Just had a huge fight with my dad over *

[smbolisnch]

I was just talking to him and I teasingly reminded him not to forget to vote on Wednesday. Well, it went from a joke to a huge fight. He is so adamant about his vote for *, and i just don't understand it! Over the last 4 years, I have given him every piece of literature, books etc., and nothing will sway him, not at all. All he says is "Kerry is the most liberal (gasp) man in the senate, blah blah blah. Worse than Ted Kennedy blah blah blah. He will not listen to anything I have to say. I have given up. My trying to change his mind is as ridiculous as him trying to change mine.

My dad is a good man. He has worked hard his entire life, raised 3 daughters and lost 1. He enlisted in the marines at 18 and came home a few years before Vietnam and finished his college degree. He is an amazing dad and I love him dearly. I have always been "daddy's little girl." However, the last 4 years have pushed a wedge between us. His vote tomorrow will go to *. It isn't an obvious, can't stand to be around each other thing, but it is one of those things you just feel.

Bottom line is, although I feel in my heart KE is going to win tomorrow, I just feel like I could sob at any moment over the horrible arguments that my dad and I have had over the last few years. It is like our relationship will always be changed b/c of this. Do any of you guys have similar situations?? How do you deal with it?

Thanks for letting me vent.............

:cry:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Lots of us here have similar situations.

A lot of us have simply come here to vent. We're a sort of support group in that sense.

[KingChicken]

2. The same wedge is dividing America

There are those who choose to adapt to the changing situation we find ourselves in the world, other feel security in the old methods. He will never change but you as the next generation have a duty to make progress...

[Sparkle]

3. Thanks for trying. People are just stubborn that way.

[progressiveBadger]

4. I do.

I try to avoid the topic altogether. We talk and bond over other things, like football and beer. We stay away from politics, and when it does go that direction, I nod and smile. I know I won't change his mind, just as he won't change mine. So I figure talking about it only makes us angry.

[Rhoderick]

5. Sorry to hear that

I've been in similar situations. Most of my family are Bush-supporters. They don't know anything about politics or the world situation, but they see him standing in front of hay bales and it's all over for them. They think he speaks for them.

Just use my golden rule: never talk about politics with your family. Don't let differing opinions get in the way of your relationship because 10 or 15 years from now this election will be a distant memory and you'll still be his daughter and he, your father.

Best of luck.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vickers]

8. That's not fair.

You don't know shit about her dad, so back the fuck up.

[g-money]

13. He's voting for Bush, what more do I need to know?

What more do you need to know?

[Vickers]

15. You need to know she has done her best

So what? Another vote for dimson...won't be enough.

[m berst]

28. begging your pardon?

There is a lot more to a person than how they vote. Even if that were not true, you are talking about the poster's father here, neither of whom you know. Your posts are extremely inconsiderate and offensive.

[Lavender Brown]

16. If only it were that simple

There are lots of people I love dearly but our politics are so different. You can't just walk away.

[smbolisnch]

19. That is not cool.

And you have no place to say it. That is no better than me suggesting that your parents are bad people because they raised a child that would say such a thing. Now is it?? :wtf:

[indigobusiness]

29. I agree. Those supporting Bush are complicit

and have the blood of innocents on their hands.

[manic expression]

45. I do agree that

those who support Bush have the blood (and suffering) of countless innocents on their hands, this does not make them "bad". Yes, they do support horrible things, but mostly out of ignorance. The quandary is if this makes them a "bad" person. I think their beliefs are wrong and terrible (even if they are not really genuine), and that does reflect upon them a great deal. However, it is important to realize that if they are good people (in other aspects of life), and mean well, then that reflects upon them a great deal as well.
In the end, if a person supports horrible things but in practice is a good individual, then everything will balance out. That is just my opinion.

[indigobusiness]

48. I passed no judgment...

just asserted the shared responsibility.

Thanks for clearing that up. Judgment, like killing, isn't man's work...or shouldn't be.

[manic expression]

50. That is passing judgment

in a way.
EDIT: and I did the same thing

[indigobusiness]

56. Not at all. Judgment is like pregnant...can't be just a little.

I made no judgement as to whether he was a good or bad person. But his actions are culpable, like the driver of a getaway car....no judgment there.

Seriously, It's like a soldier in war that follows a commanders orders to commit an atrocity. Even if he just stands by and watches, he is culpable unless he actively opposes it.

Hate the sin, not the sinner... as the Christians say (I think).

[manic expression]

58. But...

Isn't the "sinner" the culprit of the "sin" (I HATE using that terminology)? Don't actions (and beliefs) mirror the person to a certain extent?
And the final quesiton...what do you think of that soldier?

[indigobusiness]

61. The soldier faced a true test of character...pass/fail.

It isn't whether the sinner (I hate the baggage of that terminology too, but - crime against Nature and all that matters in the Universe - is too verbose) is the culprit...it is whether or not you JUDGE it.

Everybody carries the same weight, some struggle harder than others in doing it honorably. Grading that struggle is judgment.

[manic expression]

65. Judgment is universal

No matter how someone judges something, it is still the same in the big picture. The soldiers would have thought that gang-raping was good, but that does nothing to change the fact that it is horrible, disgusting and wrong. If not one human being judged them as that, it would not make a difference. Now here it comes: are those soldiers now disgusting in every way, do they deserve no sympathy or compassion? Or are they almost victims of the situation they are in? Or is it that there is the beautiful potential (as in all of us) to find truth in our existence? How should those soldiers be viewed? Should we view people based on how they act and what they believe?
I believe that what you do (and believe) in your life ultimately reflects upon you as an individual. Everyone has an obligation to do what is right, no matter what the consequences.

[indigobusiness]

68. That is all beside the point. You don't grasp the distinction.

Seeing deeds and acts as right and wrong is different than judging people.

The point is in how the act of judging or not judging resonates within an individual, and subsequently how it manifests, subtly and otherwise, in the real world.

This, on a collective scale, is fundamental to a culture rising or, ultimately, self-destructing.

[manic expression]

69. I think that deeds

greatly resonate within an individual, and therefore the personal judgment must look at more than just actions.
Also, I'd like to hear your comments on the soldiers who commited horrible acts and the soldier who stood by and let them happen.

[indigobusiness]

71. I was just trying to clarify what judging

others means and why it is warned against.

It goes to forgiveness. It doesn't matter to someone whose acts you despise that you forgive them It matters in the effect that forgiveness has on you. It tranforms YOU. You are not at all the same person had you not cultivated that forgiveness within yourself.
That is very powerful stuff, no matter what churches you avoid.

Re: I view the soldier that stood by and watched in horror as the others committed the atrocity as complicit in the act. Even though he internally opposed it. There is a duty to act.

I view all the soldiers as human and realize that anyone can be caught up in a moment and do something despicable.

I don't judge any of the soldiers as good or bad people.

Individually, I might see one or another as more trustworthy, etc.

edit to add - When everyone understands this...atrocity will become a dying breed.

[manic expression]

72. hmm...

Now I get what you were saying. I have a hard time finding forgiveness and sympathy to some people. I hate myself for it but that is the way I am right now. That is something which I must work on. I guess it is best to forgive but never forget.
I definitely agree with your opinion on the bystander soldier. There is a higher duty to do what is right, no matter what the consequences may be (death, pain or anything else does not matter). The problem with me is that I see no reason to in any way pardon the actions of the soldiers until they realize that they did horrible things. I think if someone commits bad things, then they themselves become that to a certain extent until the individual makes up for what they did (doing good, stopping further crimes, feeling true sadness for the action, etc...). Part of everything will never be truly bad, but some temporary things in an individual is changed by their actions.

[indigobusiness]

74. It is a tough nut to crack.

It helps me to simplify things conceptually. The good/bad thing is just an aspect of our dualistic world. Without the friction there would be none of the heat, and that's no fun...where would we be then?

Once I began to understand quantum entanglement and got a glimpse of the interconnectedness of things, I began to deal with concepts of compassion etc more fully. No point in choosing anymore. I try to learn from it all now. Even as the anger wells up in me and I'm ready to fight, I can't help seeing myself in my adversary...that's a weird detail in this.

The other day I was all over the Schilling threads, saying vile things about him. But on a deeper level, I realize he just has a lot of growing to do, as does Bush. I'm up in arms against their bad influence, but I know, deep down, they're just bozos.

Cheers! Nice talking to you.

[mitchum]

76. Good dad, bad person...

If he is still supporting bush, he does have blood on his hands

[kayell]

34. Nice start at DU.

that was heavy sarcasm if you couldn't tell.

[OneTwentyoNine]

39. Ridiculous statement,but thanks for trying....

[kwyjibo]

55. You need to quit giving people advice.

First of all, Bush did not murder 100,000 Iraqi citizens. If you read the article with that number, you'd know that. Also, you have to allow for people to not know everything. My dad's voting for Bush too, but I think he's in denial about a lot of things. He doesn't trust the media and people like you, so when someone tells him that Bush is responsible for murdering 100,000 Iraqi citizens, he's skeptical. And he should be, because you're totally wrong.

Another thing.. I refuse to just hate everybody that voted for Bush. They have their reasons. All people are different. Some of them are probably assholes (just like some of the people voting for Kerry), but a lot of them ARE good people, no matter what you say. My dad might be politically misguided, but he is a good person. Anyone who says otherwise can kiss my ass.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

7. Better to just avoid the subject

It sounds as if, however much you love your dad, he has thoroughly drunk his cook-aid and will not be swayed at this point. Bringing the subject up, even in a joking way, is only going to cause more arguments.

BTW, I love this: "don't forget to vote on Wednesday." Made me laugh out loud.

[trotsky]

9. He's not unlike most * voters.

They desperately want to believe that Bush is the man to lead us, and they're scared to death to think that their vote for him in 2000 was a mistake.

Hopefully if Kerry wins, he can begin healing this rift in the nation's psyche and that might just trickle down to the family level. (Look at me - a liberal hoping for trickle-down. hehe)

[LibertyorDeath]

10. Sounds like he should ease off on the Kool aid

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2570154&mesg_id=2570154&page=

[Worst Username Ever]

11. Hang in there, it's almost over n/t

[blueknight]

20. dont let this drive a wedge

between you and your dad. its not worth it. your dad will vote for whomever he wants,as will you. there will be many more elections in your lifetime. you only have one mom and dad.

[MsFlorida]

12. Lost a whole group of friends because of *

I questioned their intelligence because they believed Iraq attacked us on 9/11. In retrospect, I'm better off not having stupid friends

[indigobusiness]

24. Yep

sadly

[dave502d]

14. You just said it,My dad is a good man.

Don't fight with your dad over *",Your dad will be their for you when
*. is gone.

[glitch]

17. there are people I don't want to know because of * very sad about it

but there are also people I am thrilled to know because they see * for what he/it/they is/are. So - I try to feel compassion for the former and associate with and emulate the latter.
And I look at * as someone who made the distinctions much clearer, and I am grateful for that.
Sorry about your Dad, but maybe just maybe he'll see the light someday. Try to be patient with him and be thankful for whatever your parents gave you that enabled you to choose reality.
Keep your chin up!

edit my spelling is crap today!

[Free2BMe]

18. Bottom line..he's your Dad...your his kid...when there is sickness,

birth, death and all the celebratory things in between...you will be fine...I cannot see for the life of me how anyone in the correct mind could vote for Bush and support an "anti-people" pro control line that these right wingers do...I have 4 kids...two liberal...two conservative (not to the point of right wing..but will probably vote * Just had a great talk with my progressive DIL and she "gets" it! Good luck...

[indigobusiness]

21. I feel for those in your shoes

and there are many.

This is a torn country that needs to heal.

When light is shone into the dark corners, and the cockroaches scatter to reveal the ugly truth...I hope this country has the character to accept and admit it.

Then we can move on.

[jrthin]

22. We've all had similar stories.

Keep in mind that if you allow time to heal this madness, you and he will see that blood can indeed be stronger than politics.

[camero]

23. I had the same arguments with my mom over Jeb

She's finally come to my POV. She's voting for Kerry over the draft issue but she also finally sees the robbing of the middle class and poor under the Bushes. Her county in FL cut summer school because of budget cuts and vouchers and my brother might need summer school in order to graduate.

Funny how events change your POV eh?

[Spinzonner]

25. This isn't worth anger and alienation over

Call him and say you're sorry that the two of you argued. Take responsibility for your part of it. You don't have to apologize for disagreeing but arguing almost never changes peoples minds.

He is entitled to his opinions, even if he is wrong (in your eyes).

Perhaps when you were younger there were times he thought you were making a mistake and even doing things not totally for your own good but he withheld criticism because he loved and respected you ?

If you love and respect him, cherish his ability to make choices, even ones you disagree with. There may come a time when he can no longer do that and you will yearn for the days when he could.

And maybe stay away from the subject of politics with him - at least for a while. And don't gloat or celebrate a Kerry win around him. He will likely feel the same as you would if the situation were reversed.

[smbolisnch]

33. I just called him

I feel so much better. He laughed and said that we are going to have to just agree to disagree. I can't help but think that he is not going to be around for ever. I would never forgive myself if my last conversation with my father were a fight about *.

Thanks for everybody's words of wisdom.....most everybody, anyway.

[Dorian Gray]

36. I'm glad

that you and your father came to an agreement, even if that agreement means to not talk about politics. The people who said that family is too important to split up with over this election are right. And, like many of you, I have a similar situation. Political arguments get heated, and it sucks to feel that type of distance from your family.

[smbolisnch]

42. Right...

I will NEVER let * disrupt my family. To hell with that.
Thanks for all of the support guys......it really means a lot!

[bpilgrim]

41. good to hear

it's exactly what the neoCONs want, to DIVIDE us. and they are masters at it but it certainly ain't worth giving up our own families over it.

faux news and the rest are the ones i truely seeth at. they are doing this to many americans tragiclly.

help is on the way!


peace

[dave123williams]

26. I don't think your Dad is voting for Bush so much as...

...he's voting for, well, his beliefs. I'd be preaching to the choir to say that Bush, while qualifiedly a total moron, has been well positioned by his handlers to be the SYMBOL of Conservative beliefs and values.

So, I think that anybody who takes more than a passing glance at his actual record is going to be mortified, and those who don't are going to vote for ol' Glory without much critical thought. I would imagine your dad falls in to the latter camp.

My unsolicited advice for mending fences; tell your dad that you respect and love him, and his beliefs.

It's probably a bit too late in the day to make the argument that Bush is actually a wolf in sheep's clothing, that he's been very busy betraying conservative values, like the balanced budget and the Bill of Rights. However, you could implore him (your dad) to read this, from the American Conservative magazine:

http://www.amconmag.com/2004_11_08/cover1.html

It's by people who have no love for Kerry, but see Bush for what he is...and it worked on MY Dad.

Best of luck with this....

[YDogg]

27. Welcome to the ...

... Cold Civil War.

[ktowntennesseedem]

30. Similar phone call from my mom last night

Couldn't believe that I was voting "wrong" and was "shocked" to see a Kerry/Edwards sign in my yard a few weeks ago. Didn't say anything till yesterday; probably was urged to make a final push for the Chimp at her Fundamentalist Baptist Church. Like talking to a brick wall, and since all of her issus are black & white (either for it or against it mentality), it was useless to explain my views and opinions, most of which are quite complex since I arrived at them only after years of searching and thinking them thru. I've already vented at this site a couple of times, and it does help to know so many others are experiencing the same thing.

(My biggest surprise is that she was "shocked," when she knows I've been voting democrat for 24 years, since I was old enough to vote!)

[Gman]

31. I once had a fist fight with my dad over Richard Nixon

and the "Impeach Nixon" bumper sticker on my truck. He kept taking them off, I kept replacing them until we finally came to blows when I caught him doing it. This was in 1973. History proved I was right.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PatriotGames]

35. I wouldn't worry too much about it. He is set in his ways, but he is still

your dad.

[kayell]

37. I'm sorry to hear that. It sounds like it is best to avoid politics

with him to hang on to the kind of relationship you want with him. One of my grandfathers, who I loved dearly, had some horrible blind spots, and he and I both eventually learned to avoid them so we could maintain the rest that was good.

You did your best. I think that there are a lot of people, otherwise good, who simply can't face the truth about *, because it would damage their self concept too much to face how very badly they were fooled.

Ignore the people who are nasty, they definitely are in the minority. Dems as a whole are not big on black & white thinking, but this close to the election, the worst is coming out in many of us.

[glaeken777]

38. make a wager!

My dad is pretty much the same. We argue vehemently over politics. What I did to disarm the situation is make him a $5 friendly wager on who will win tomorrow. Now, the worst he acts is to give me a grin and some line about how he hopes I have my $5 ready to hand over tomorrow. Makes it much easier to put some humor into the whole matter. That, and tomorrow he'll make me $5 richer :)

[smbolisnch]

40. Good idea!

Dad does laugh about it like that. Usually it irritates me to no end, but if there's a fiver riding on it, I'm in! What can I say, I am a poor college student!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Skittles]

43. let it go, smbolisnch, and be happy you have a dad you love

and who loves you. You are luckier than many, many people.

[smbolisnch]

44. You are so right......

I am so glad to have him. I am just sorry we have wasted countless conversations arguing about it already. I am done talking politcs with family, period.

[Skittles]

46. you can't pick your family but you can chose what to talk about

it's a good idea for y'all to drop politics.

[lawladyprof]

47. Like the Civil War

Brings to mind accounts of the bitter divide in families the last time the South rose.

[Bandit]

49. You only have one dad...don't let politics destroy your relationship

Just don't talk politics with him. He believes strongly and will not be swayed. Love him for who he is and forgive him for he knows not what he does. He would never do anything deliberately to hurt you so you don't either. Love Him. Judge not just love.

[pdmike]

60. I couldn't agree more.

My dad has been gone since 1986 but if he were alive, we would probably be fighting over this election. I don't know what kind of relationship you have with your Dad. It sounds like a basically good one. There is nothing wrong with discussing politics. Fighting over politics is another matter.

My wife is a * ite and will vote for him. We simply don't discuss politics and it works out just fine.

Me? I'm a K-man, of course. The fun part is that here, in California, it doesn't matter whether my wife votes for * or not. Kerry's going to take the state!

[expatriate]

51. My father wasn't a particularly good or loving father

and though he was once quite liberal and a Democrat, over the years he became a raving right wing conservative - the whole thing except for the fundamentalism. He listened to Rush Limbaugh obsessively and taped his broadcasts so he could replay them, stocked up for Y2K like there was no tomorrow no matter how carefully and logically it was explained to him that it was going to be a non-event, carried a .45 derringer in his pocket because he was convinced non-white people were going to attack him, and more ugly stuff that I don't even want to remember now.

He didn't start out that way. I remember him voting for Humphrey and McGovern, and being irate when Nixon got in and then got in again. He was vehemently opposed to the Vietnam War. But over time, the rot set in, and he began to expound upon his theory that any country that gave the US trouble should have one city per day nuked until they acquiesced to whatever the US wanted - and similar disgusting ranting. One of his favorite phrases he used to his family was "you're either my friend or you're my enemy". I can't begin to tell you how sick I felt when I heard Shrub saying "you're either for me or against me" or words to that effect, because of the memories it summoned for me. It was terrible, seeing a bright, well-educated man descend into a Rush-loving loony, and all I can say is that the booze and his familial predisposition toward narcissism and paranoia had a lot to do with it.

My point is - if you have a good, loving father, and you can agree to disagree on politics, you should do that. Good dads are rare, politicians come and go. When Shrub is gone, you and your dad will probably have less to clash about, particularly when he begins to see that Kerry being in the Oval Office is not going to be the trigger for the end of life as we know it!

You don't know how long your dad will be around for you to love and interact with. Sometimes it's better to swallow pride a bit when you love someone whose beliefs you will never change. Better to let him observe how Kerry will perform in office and come to his own conclusions. He might just surprise you if he's allowed to watch and think on his own, without continually being on the defensive because he expects a confrontation with you.

Best of luck to you. Having a loving, good dad is a very precious thing. Enjoy.

[GreenPartyVoter]

52. Take politics and put it in a big box and bury it under a rock when

the two of you are together. Family comes first.

[Ladyhawk]

53. Similar situation, only few arguments.

Politics has become verboten. Yet I feel strongly that their strong right-wing stance says something about them as people. So, I'm slowly breaking off ties with family and certain right-wing fundamentalists.

It hurts like hell. :cry:

[smbolisnch]

54. Done.....

Thank you all so much for your replies. I am going to make a concious effort to never bring up politics with loved ones again, and if it is brought up, I will just leave the room until the fur quits flying. It's just not worth it. Thank you guys.....:grouphug:

[rexcat]

57. I am sorry that you had a blow out with your dad but...

your might try reading "Moral Politics : How Liberals and Conservatives Think" by George Lakoff. This book could give you some insight about your father.

I have an ultra-conservative father-in-law who has made my life miserable and the book gave me insight on the conservative mind set.

Good luck.

[Beaverhausen]

59. I had a fight with my Dad yesterday too

It is really hard- I know.

I had decided not to even talk politics with him but he started in on me.

My dad comes from a generation and a part of the country where a lot of people are racist and even though he has changed for the most part, deep down I think what he believes about terrorism is colored by whatever racism still exists in his psyche.

It's really the only explanation I can come up with.

Stay here among friends and talk to dad about sports or whatever else you have in common.

[Robbie67]

62. My dad voted for Bush

he hasn't supported a Dem since Kennedy. I don't know what led to his utter hatred of all Democrats, but it's ingrained.

We don't talk politics much, but he said today that he'll be glad when all this shit is over. I agreed with that.

[sendero]

63. I'm sorry to hear that..

... but not surprised. Lots of folks, especially older folks, are set in their beliefs and not willing to examine the foundations on which they are laid.

My own parents are probably voting for Bush*. I've give them some heated rhetoric about it, but the bottom line is they listen to Limbaugh and watch Fox and they really cannot get their minds around the idea that the airwaves are full of lies and propoganda.

I've resolved simply to not speak of politics, and hence just enjoy their company. I don't like it, but I don't think there is anything better I can do.

[Lord_Ingues]

64. Glad to hear you reconciled with your father smbolisnch,

your family is far more important than any stupid election could ever be. :)

On a funny side note, I hadn't seen my dad in 13 years until 3 weeks ago and we barely spoke in between that time to each other. I went and visited him for his 60th b-day and we turned out to be almost exactly alike in alot of ways - it was really cool. My mother is arch-conservative but I love her anyways and we always have a pleasant time together. Life is too short to build walls between yourself and your parents, enjoy the time you have together because you won't get another chance! :)

[smbolisnch]

66. That's great!!!

Wonderful that you and your dad are getting to know each other again!! Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Lord_Ingues]

77. Thanks nice crowd ya got here

:)

[drdtroit]

67. I feel for you ...

Unfortunately you can't show a painting to a blind man.

[ibegurpard]

70. Yup...same with my parents

If Bush wins, I'm not going to be able to be around them for a while.

[robertpaulsen]

73. If you can't make him vote Kerry, could he vote for someone other than *?

I have been going through arguments with my Dad very similar to what you've been going through. Up until last week, he was dead set on voting for Bush and I couldn't figure out how to convince him otherwise. He's very conservative and very religious: the number one issue for him is abortion, which the liberal pro-choice Kerry could never ban. I figured I had no chance to make him vote against Bush.

But I kept trying. I know he's disgusted by the war in Iraq, so I kept sending him info on the possibility of a draft, asking how could you vote for someone who has brought us this close to a draft with his back-door draft in Iraq. Do you want to take a chance on your children being sent? Now, he's changing his vote to Michael Peroutka of the Constitution Party. He's anti-abortion and against the war in Iraq. I suppose it's a pyrrhic victory not getting his vote for Kerry, but the way I see it, if a conservative like my Dad ISN'T voting for Bush, that works in Kerry's favor. Perhaps your Dad might like Peroutka or Badnarik of the Libertarian Party. It's worth a try!

[Seabiscuit]

75. One of my mother-in-law's sisters married a right wing Navy lifer

and raised 3 Republican brats who married 3 Republican a-holes. Luckily, we're not close to any of them, but do have to spend *some* social time with them every year. Since the Navy lifer Repuke got into an argument with me in March 2003 about Iraq and ended it with a drunken tirade: "Fuck Germany! Fuck France! And fuck the United Nations!" I first mocked him by saying as sweetly as possible, "Thank you for sharing" and have simply avoided the subject of politics with these Limbaugh dumbed down morons ever since - if it comes up in a group discussion I try to change the subject. If that doesn't work, I get up and leave the room.

They're not bad people - just uneducated, boring people who are very easy targets for the Freepazoid press brainwashing machine.