ok, im listening to dean and...

[veganwitch]

im not impressed at all. (this must be something from earlier and in new york or something--oh this is from the bryant park thing on tuesday).

is there some sort of cue card for the audience?? they are all cheering or booing practically on cue.

and he just said that the first way to create jobs is to balance the budget.

and internet broad band to the rural areas so that the sheeple can donate to my campaign (im sorta typing as i hear).

and i love his explaination to his iraq war stance. mostly about the lies but not about his support if the UN went along.

happy sunday all.

edit: the crowd was just chanting "we love dean" what a bunch of sychophants!!!

[Le Taz Hot]

1. Then, it's a good thing there are 8 other candidates

from which to choose. Cheers! :toast:

[alcuno]

2. Isn't it funny...

I listened to the same thing and found the fact that he was not reading from a script to be quite refreshing.

[quinnox]

3. I feel the same way

I have seen Dean a few times in debates now, and each time he fails to impress me. I really don't see the appeal, he is an ok candidate, but there are many other far stronger ones in the race.

[buff2]

37. Who?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[hedda_foil]

4. Since CSPAN didn't deign to air his speeches ....

It was impossible to hear anything he said beyond an opening sentence in one town or another, a few remarks to reporters and rope line stuff. It was inside baseball to campaign junkies but none of the subtance was included in the entire hour and a half. And there was a lot of substance. I was there in Chicago, watched New York and heard a couple of others in webcast.

And by the way, when he said that we had to have the UN, it was in October ... before the vote ... when everyone on DU, including those of us most in the know, were saying the same thing. The assumption was that if the weapons inspectors said after a sufficient amount of time that there were substantial WMD's there which Saddam was refusing to allow them to inspect, then there would be a UN resolution to disarm by force. Dean said, as did most of us at the time, that he would have backed Biden-Lugar, which would have REQUIRED * to go back to the Senate for any war authorization.

[cherryperry]

7. You're definitely for Dean, right?

Could you please give me your take on this 'create jobs by balancing the budget' quote...did he really say that? Do you believe that yourself?

Thanks!

[TLM]

66. Simple really...

a balanced budget means jobs. Because when the budget is balanced and the government solvent, there is a stable investment platform. Basicly banks are more willing to give loans to medium and small businesses.

22 million new jobs were created when clinton balanced the budget.

Does anybody think we shouldn't have a balanced budget?

[caledesi]

86. TLM - I just put you on my "buddy list"...I like your mind.

[GalleryGod]

10. Handsome Use of the word "Deign". I Luv A Wordsmith!

Seriously! As a writer and Pol Prof-that's why I like that Willy R. Ptt so much:hi:

[UnapologeticLiberal]

19. Did you take any pictures in chicago?

I am desparately looking for good pictures from the Chicago rally. Did you take any? If so please send the original sized photos to [e-mail]. If they are too big to send you can upload them at www.deanphotos.com. Use dean as the username and password.

[cherryperry]

5. uh oh

He actually said the first way to create jobs is to balance the budget?

This is definitely bad news. Please confirm! Thx.

[JohnKleeb]

6. I thought the first way to create jobs

was like maybe like rebuilding programs. BTW this is what FDR suggested 70 years ago to help rebuild our country, and you know Dennis K is suggesting this to. He combines a lot of ideas to distinguish himself.

[cherryperry]

11. Thanks, John!

I already was certain this anti-labor proposal would not be supported by Dennis! I'm just kinda shocked to hear this garbage from Dean ... didn't realize he was so anti-labor which would also translate into pro-corporate or at least pro-business, both of which are very DLC and repig positions!


:yourock: :pals:

[JohnKleeb]

18. I dont get it either

I think we should balance the budget but my gut tells me that shouldnt be our goal. I like Dennis's idea of cutting unneeded pentagon programs, he knows that they are wasteful and if we can get universal pre school education with that wow. Thats something Ive always wondered about, why cant that be true, same with college.

[sfecap]

24. Howard Dean is NOT anti labor...

Perhaps you may want to head on over to www.deanforamerica.com and read his position on the issues. ("on the issues", left side of the page...)In particular his ideas on labor, and the economy. It's all over there. If you need some links I can supply them....

[UnapologeticLiberal]

I am not sure if balanced budgets create jobs

but I do know that the bigger the deficit is, the more money in the long run will go to big corporate banks collecting interest on the debt that could be used to invest in social programs such as building schools and roads that do create jobs. The more money interest on the debt sucks up, the less there is for job creation programs and other social welfare programs.

The main direct link I can think of between balanced budgets and job creation is that I have heard that investors and business owners are more confident when our country's fiscal house is in order, and thus they are more likely to hire more people or to buy new equipment, which in turn creates the need for more workers to produce that equipment, or at least creates job orders that could prevent a factory from closing. But I do not really believe in trickle down economics, so I am not sure how much weight this theory holds.

To me, a balanced budget is just common sense. If I had a bunch of credit card debt, my solution would not be to increase my credit limit and run up more debt while simultaneously quitting my job so that I have less coming in with which to pay it off. But that is exactly what the government is doing right now, and it is sickening to watch.

Personally, I would like to see Dean use the common sense economics argument that I just laid out rather than the job creation argument in making his case for a balanced budget. But the other part of his case for balancing the budget - that it is needed in order to fund social justice - is very good, and in any case, I agree with him on the need for fiscal responsibility, even if I do not completely agree with the way he frames the case for it.

[TLM]

68. How do you pay for rebuilding programs?

By balancing the budget... which is exactly what Dean said his plans are. I note the guy asking the question left out the part where dean talked about transmission lines, developing alternative powers sources based on wind and solar, and investing in infrastructure... to not only create jobs but build resources that will help our kids, instead of saddling them with debt.

[mandyky]

8. Dean equates social justice with a balanced budget

but not that simply. If he repeals the tax cuts and doesn't balance the budget, we can't afford health care or jobs to rebuild the power grid, roads, etc. We also can't fund education with the tax cuts.

[madfloridian]

12. No, he did not say that.

C-Span hopped all over the place. Go to www.deanforamerica.com, and do a search for jobs for creating jobs.

It is all there. He has some good ideas on it. I will see what I can find.

There are many candidates, many views. When I find one not to my liking, I don't feel the need to say so as the first thread does. There is no need to do that.

[cherryperry]

25. I was so traumatized that I didn't think of looking up his

position myself. After visiting his website and viewing all of his statements and positions on labor and on unions, I am satisfied. You are correct, I doubt he said what was quoted by the originator of this thread.

Thank you for the suggestion. Please stop bothering with your search. It's cleared up for me.

:hi:

:kick:

[Cha]

29. I agree, madfloridian! There's no need for this kind of

thread starter! All we can do is just respond and hope to clear up matters for future readers.

[veganwitch]

33. somehow i think..

if this was anyone but dean--kerry, lieberman, kucinich?? the cries of "uncalled for" would not be pouring in.

but maybe thats just me.

[Cha]

46. Dean supporters will stand up for him! The other candidates

supporters would have to address that!

[JohnKleeb]

48. I respect standing up but I dont think vegan was bashing

We're not all thrilled by Dean, not saying I am or I aint. My point is vegan wasnt bashing, and I think some attacked her unfairly.

[Cha]

54. Calling Dean Supporters "sychophants"?

[JohnKleeb]

56. gotcha my bad didnt see that

my mistake.

[veganwitch]

57. i believe..

in calling a spade a spade.

[Cha]

61. your opinion

[JNelson6563]

95. actually it's namecalling

which is a strong indicator as to the tone you were setting for the entire dialogue.


I was unimpressed with your post. I am even less impressed with your defense of the post. Your style reminds me of another political forum I know of.......

*yawn* Oh look! Another counter-productive post that required no thought or effort! Gee and we Dems wonder why we are in the "political wilderness".........between the "loyal opposition" in Congress during the Bush regime and Republican style attacks on our own (thoughtfully demonstrated in thread's initial post).......how could we be anywhere else??

:eyes:

Julie

[caledesi]

89. Trying to start shit....that's all Zid.

[madfloridian]

49. Well, just visit the Politics and Campaigns.

And yes, it is uncalled for anyone to bash other candidates. Visit Politics forum, and you will see that the blame should be shared among all.

It is sickening.

If you do not like Dean, you could have said so in a nicer manner.

[caledesi]

88. Again, what is the purpose of your post, because I don't get it.

[veganwitch]

21. maybe i should clarify...

when he mentioned how to create jobs the next words out of his mouth was "balancing the budget," then later came stuff like infrastructure and the like.

and he mentioned balancing the budget again later.

he also said something like "whether im a liberal or not, thats for you to decide."


i get the idea that he is slipping his centrist ideas out here and there so its not like hed be completely lying when he turns out to be less then the liberal hope (hype?) his supporters thought he was if he gets elected.

does that make sense??

[cherryperry]

27. Yes, it does.

I do not see Dean as a liberal, however, I do see him as a real possibility for the nomination and so I wanted to make sure he wasn't quite as regressive as what you originally posted. He's not that either. Thanks for the clarification!

:pals:

[JohnKleeb]

30. that just flat out confuses me

I tell you this, DK doesnt go around telling people I am the liberal vote for me in the primaries, he tells us what hes about, and tells us to believe in our selves. That makes me feel good. :)

[Eloriel]

39. Yeah, it makes sense, but it's

wrong, IMO.

You know, Dean might not be your candidate. HOWEVER, if you're going to look at him and his campaign at all, please try to do it both unfiltered by the media (because I've seen virtually NO regular media coverage, or even alternative media coverage that gets it right -- at all!!), AND without assuming he's just another politician being crafty. Because he's not.

I really understand your cynicism, but it won't do you any good if you're trying to "figure Dean out" through that lens. He is what he is. He says what he thinks -- and sometimes that's going to get him in trouble, as in when he's not made up his mind on a subject completely (balanced budget amendment, as on MTP), or when he's in the process of growing or changing his mind about a policy (Cuba), or when he speaks openly about his thinking on the subject and some of it gets taken out of context (like your quote) and often quite purposely mischaracterized or twisted (like his comment that he might consider raising the SS retirement age under some circumsntaces, or the fact that he would not say he'd "never" engage in pre-emptive strikes).

He is a thoughtful, pragmatic man, who doesn't always speak in nice, neat, all-wrapped-up soundbytes. Sometimes he has more to say than that, and that means he's GOING to be misquoted -- accidentally, carelessly AND sometimes on purpose. He's also not afraid to say he hasn't totally decided (as with the balanced budget amendment), or to weigh various sides of the issue outloud. All of this is a major reason I and others recommend people get their views of him directly from original source material -- his appearances, speeches, policy papers on the website. I'll repeat: almost nothing I've seen in print has been correct about him and his camapaign. And Hedda_Foil was right on re the C-Span coverage. I found it quite disappointing.

Anyway, balancing the budget is very important to him. It is to me too at this point. He believes -- because he's been there -- that social justice depends on and requires fiscal sanity. It's also a requirement for good, solid job creation -- but that doesn't mean it would be his first or only policy for job creation.

He might not be your guy, but you owe yourself a realistic look at him before you make that decision, IMO.

Eloriel

[aquart]

41. Balancing the budget is important. Very important.

Investment capital has fled this country. We won't get it back until the books are in order.

Investment capital funds startups which means JOBS.

[veganwitch]

53. some how

i think that all the investment capitol is not going to stop nike from having its factories over seas where 15 year olds will make their shoes on the cheap.

as long as corporations get favours from the goverment, in terms of contracts, or tax breaks etc., they are going to look at their bottom line and not their workers.

smart spending (as in saying the pentagon shouldnt get money they cant account for), fair taxing (tax cuts for working families, not for wealthy), and getting rid of NAFTA and free trade which will stop the jobs from going overseas, will create jobs.

[salin]

62. I have heard him say (re: jobs)

that requiring trade/trading partners to have and enforce the same safety/environmental/labor regulations as US industries - is the way to save US jobs (making costs more similar) and to improve work conditions in other countries.

I found it to be an interesting approach.

[veganwitch]

65. that is an interesting approach

and i think that has more merit than simply saying "balance the budget."

[salin]

69. I heard him say it last night

specifically related to an industry (steel - but he applied it to stell and others) that are losing jobs. He also said without action these industries would be so set behind that it would take years for them to recover/be competitive unless action was taken soon. Btw,
he didn't mention "balancing the budget" as any part of the response.

[veganwitch]

73. i used to live in NW IN

the steel industry and its demise has really fucked (for lack of a better word) the local economy. of course the steel industry has been suffering for years, even before now.

im not sure the amount of steel that we import from other countries but we need to make something from that steel and a "new deal type" infrastructure project would create a demand for that local steel.

[salin]

76. The response

was to steel workers in NW Indiana, btw. (I am in southcentral Indiana). It has had a terrible impact on the region since the Reagan years. I am also afraid that a number of core industries are heading this way without some major policy changes. Sad thing is how many indies and repubs have bought the neocon economic fantasy that tax cuts and (corporate cronism) multilateral unfettered free trade is actually a healthy thing for our long term economic growth.

Thing about infrastructure projects - is they don't have to be massive in scale, they can be local/regional, and they can serve to benefit the greater public good (industry, and overall local and regional economy).

[Eloriel]

72. Well, as people have tried to point out to you,

he DOES and has said more -- much more -- than simply "balance the budget."

Some candidate are promising to get rid of NAFTA. That's NOT going to happen. It just won't. It's a truly wonderful idea, and I love it, but it's impractical as all get out.

So the next best thing -- the practical and pragmatic thing -- is to fix it. Dean has been very strong on this, even saying he would impose tariffs if trading partners didn't agree.

You impose trade/labor, environmental and human rights requirements on trading partners and that sucking sound we've all been hearing will slow down to a very low, slow hum. It will simple cease being quite so attractive financially to ship jobs overseas. AND it will bring up the standards of living in other countries, so they are able to develop a middle class. Dean says THAT is a defense issue: countries with a middle class don't start wars. Plus they have more money to spend on American and other goods. It's best for everyone.

This is some of Dean's position on jobs. I'd encourage you to check out his website for more. http://www.deanforamerica.com

Eloriel

[veganwitch]

75. but it seemed..

he was talking to a like-minded (one might say liberal) audience. this would have been a great opportunity to go into that subject but instead he choose to mention balancing the budget twice.

[salin]

78. I didn't see the speech to which you refer

and if in that speech he didn't speak to his policies related to job creation and job reclamation via his way of addressing Nafta, then it is a campaign (not necessarily candidate - in terms of policy issue). I would encourage you to send a note to his campaign (and to any candidate's campaign - as we need these campaigns to be strong and vigorous in order to continuing garnering press (free) and getting media coverage that is not 24/7 praising bush and neocon polcies). I would send a note highlighting what you have read elsewhere to be some of Dean's approaches (we, could be elsewhere), and you heard his speech - where he seemed to solely focus on balancing the budget. Express how disappointing the budget answer was - especially if there is a much stronger message to be heard. Encourage them to sell the bigger message.

By the way - I would do this for any campaign/candidate. Some will actually "hear" messages from the field re: how they are perceived, especially if it is legitimate and sincere.

[Eloriel]

79. Well, I don't think he can say quite everything in every speech

And it doesn't sound like you heard the whole speech anyway, did you?

We've suggested several times that you go to his website to get a much better picture of the whole thing. There are policy papers, and speeches -- you might check out some to labor.

Why don't you do that -- go check it out for yourself? You seem to be resisting it. Is there some reason? Original source material is going to be MUCH more complete and accurate than our interpretations of Dean.

Eloriel

[caledesi]

91. Thanks EL. I get so sick of people asking questions about a

candidate's position, when the answers are on their Web sites.

[caledesi]

90. Excuse me, but balancing the budget IS a liberal issue.

Ask Bill Clinton.

It's the red-ink repugs who talk about tax-and-spend liberals, but they are the ones with a real problem handling money. Just look at *.

[TLM]

77. And you should read a little more about Dean;s positions.

"i think that all the investment capitol is not going to stop Nike from having its factories over seas where 15 year olds will make their shoes on the cheap. "

No, but requiring Nike to meet the same standards of labor and safety and pollution in their factory in china, as one in America would be required to meet, will.

Which is what Dean wants to do.



"as long as corporations get favours from the goverment, in terms of contracts, or tax breaks etc., they are going to look at their bottom line and not their workers."


Something Dean understands, and his plan is to use their bottom line against them... to make it no more profitable to move a factory over seas than to keep it here. It takes no terfis, and no fucking with free trade, because the corporations are simply required to meet the same standards where ever they build the factory.


"smart spending (as in saying the pentagon shouldnt get money they cant account for), fair taxing (tax cuts for working families, not for wealthy), and getting rid of NAFTA and free trade which will stop the jobs from going overseas, will create jobs."

Have a look...

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_record_labor

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7365&news_iv_ctrl=1426

[dansolo]

98. No, it makes no sense

Dean's supporters are well aware that Dean is a centrist, not a liberal. If some liberals mistook Dean's objections to war as an indication that he was then automatically a liberal, then they are at fault for not looking past that one issue to all of his stated policies. I'd expect that the number of his supporters who by now still are under the mistaken impression that he is selling himself as a liberal is pretty small.

[caledesi]

87. Balancing the budge ala Clinton is bad news?

I would love to have the Clinton years back. Peace, prosperity, JOBS, and a balanced budget.

[Cha]

9. I heard the same speech and did not come away with any of

cynicism that you so freely throw around.

And these People who chant that they "love Dean" have found a candidate who they can support with passion. These People love their Country and have found a possible to get it back :kick:

I am impressed!

[XanaDUer]

13. Well, that's you.

veganwitch has a right to her opinion, too.

[madfloridian]

16. We all have a right to our views, but some say it more nicely than others.

:hi:

[Cha]

31. I didn't say she didn't..

[cherryperry]

14. zidzi, can you tell me

whether or not Dean believes the best way to create jobs is to balance the budget? Thanks.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

20. I'm not sure if he said that

but I can tell you he does prioritize balancing the budget, and is for public works programs as one method of creating jobs.

[Cha]

36. No, cherryperry, I didn't hear Dean say that...so I don't know

what all the fuss is about? I will wait and see what is supposedly meant by whatever is flying around these threads about what Dean did or didn't say!

Dean's website is amazing, though, for explaining his positions on the issues! :-)

[salin]

63. see my post above

heard him say this last night - specifically about the loss of jobs in the steel industry. Have heard him repeat the same theme elsewhere. A much more complex answer than simply "balancing the budget".

[GalleryGod]

15. Will Any of you Physically Suvive until the Boston Convention?

BTW-you better be NICE to Pitt-he's got cheap "floor space" in BeanTown!
Seriously- :donut: GRAB SOME DECAF, FANS!:hangover:

[Cha]

40. This is nothin'!

[veganwitch]

42. like your sig

la confidential is my favourite movie.

[usregimechange]

17. Please!!!!!!!

The Republicans in Cal. are going to lose beacuse their party is divided. Don't let that happen in 2004!

[cherryperry]

35. You don't want the repigs in CA to lose?

But, seriously, I bet you meant you don't want the dems to split and end up losing due to hard feelings and steadfast opinions causing us not to vote if our particular guy isn't nominated.

I really don't think that will happen. Some of us will indeed lick our wounds after the convention, however, we are all aware of the absolute need to get Bush out. Therefore, I am counting on the rest of us CA dems to completely support whomever is the eventual nominee and just get over it and come together! Considering what's at stake, I believe that will indeed happen.


:kick: :kick:


(oops, edited for grammar, not for content)

[prolesunited]

22. Well, your insightful comments have made me see the light

I'm NOT a sycophant, therefore I will not support Dean. :eyes:

I haven't committed to a candidate yet, but I am SOOO sick of these kinds of posts.

Oh my gosh! People are cheering a political rally.

I would rather have a balance budget than the deficits as far as the eye can see

Oh, and I'm sure rural Internet access is ALL about getting "sheeple" to donate to his campaign (How that would work afterward if he was elected, who knows.) and not so people who live in rural areas have equity in access to information.

So the whole point of this was to not only disparage a candidate but also to disparage all of his supporters.

CAN WE PLEASE RAISE THE LEVEL OF DEBATE AROUND HERE!?!?!

[caledesi]

92. Amen!

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[veganwitch]

26. excuse me??

was that directed at me?? you may need to clarify.

[veganwitch]

55. *checks watch*

still trying to figure out what you meant. i know you are still here. i saw you post farther down.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

28. I think they were shouting

we WANT Dean, not we love Dean. Interesting what people project, though.

[veganwitch]

32. thats what it sounded like

of course there were two "chanting sessions." the first time, mid-speech, thats what it sounded like. during the last one, at the end, it sounded like "want" instead of "love". of course this was a soundboard recording of the rally it was hard to hear the crowd in general.

[gully]

34. I've seen better bait on a hook...

:boring:

[veganwitch]

38. but you took it..

you are posting, even to say how much you arent.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sugargoose]

51. Don't consider it a tax raise

It's only paying what you were paying pre-Bush. Were you able to survive then?

[Jim Sagle]

52. Yeah, but Kerry looked like a corpse.

So who cares what he said?

[David Dunham]

59. Kerry Told the Truth

Kerry told the truth that Dean's tax cut repeals will really punish middle class and lower class families. That does matter to most Americans who vote.

[Eloriel]

58. SPAMMER!!!!!

Posted the identical paragraph on another thread. I'll just bet you have a whole file full of 'em, don'tcha?

Welcome to DU. Bah! Kerry plants. I'm so tired of DU allowing itself to be used this way.

Disingenous, too: You didn't get $2K in tax cuts unless you're making a pretty penny. My guess would be above $200K. Further, what Dean wants is Clinton-era taxes. It wasn't so bad then, was it? Clinton-era taxes, then people can have health insurance, fully funded education, etc., etc.

He has a record of balancing the budget, then cutting taxes, and instituting social programs that are phenomenally successful.

In Howard Dean's terms, he believe most people will be happy to give up their several hundred dollars' of rebates in order to have health coverage for all. I think he's right.

Eloriel

[David Dunham]

67. Tough luck for Dean

What I wrote about Dean's position that will dramatically raise middle class taxes is right. As Harry Truman would have said, if Deaniebobbers cannot take Kerry's heat on this issue, they should get out of the kitchen. Tax fairness is what Kerr's plan will bring. Elitism is what Dean will bring.

[madfloridian]

71. This is 6 times for your same paragraph.

If you to impress us with your view of your candidate there are better ways than spamming.

[dkf]

70. That tax cut is just a loan.

You still owe that and way more.

Don't you believe in paying your bills or do you rely on credit cards?

Well Howard Dean wants to pay the bills and the rest of the folk want to live on credit.

[TLM]

81. So you got 2 grand in tax cuts from W?

How much do you make? Most families got about 600 bucks.


ANd as Dean points out, most folks would be happy to pay the taxes they paid under Clinton if they could have the economy we had under clinton.


Also, would you pay that tax if it meant health coverage, fully funded schools for your kids, and pell grants/tax credits for when your kids go to college?

[caledesi]

85. TLM....that is such a powerful line by Dean..."Most folks

would be happy to pay the taxes they paid under Clinton if they could have the economy we had under Clinton." Puts the whole "tax cut" crap in perspective. Who gives a shit about $1000/year when your property taxes go up and tuition for school goes up.


Hey, all you Repugs:

Aren't you glad that the 8-year nightmare of peace and prosperity is over?

Hee..Hee..

[Upfront]

44. Saw the speech live

along with several others by Dean. C-Span only showed just a small part of the whole speach. The reason the people are going nuts is they heard the whole speech. You should try that and then I would be interested in your thoughts. Right now you sound uninformed to me.

[veganwitch]

47. sorry..

dont watch tv, let alone cable.

the speech didnt sound spliced at all to me. they explained the bat all the way through his "mr president" thing going to the south and getting the black and brown vote and the website/phone push and then saying "you have the power" eight times.

[paulsbc]

45. same here

were you watching the Falls Church speech on howarddean.tv?

He said he would offer specifics and not just bash Bush. He then spent the rest of the speech putting up absolutely 0 specifics on issues and spent a whole lot of time in rank generalities and Bush bashing.

I was hoping for more, but it was just another politician giving another ra-ra speech with no substance, IMO.

[TLM]

82. THat is such BS.... and I've seen this same talking point like 4 times

0 specifics, such as repealing bush tax cuts, fully funding special education, investing in transmassion lines and grid upgrades, development of more wind and solar power, expanding healthcare programs to cover everybody, and prison reform with programs like sucess by six.

[paulsbc]

93. lets take each one

repealing Bush tax cuts -> yes, specific, higher taxes, whippee.. nice way to screw the working class.

fully funding special education -> what does that mean? how much money is special education going to get, and how is it going to improve a problem that exists? what is wrong with the current outlay of money today (and what is that outlay), and how will increasing just money make things better? He outlined NONE of that.

tranmission lines -> what does "investing in transmission lines and grid upgrades" mean? before the blackouts, he didn't have anything on this issue, now he has the same answer that everyone else has, which is NOT an answer, but rather lip service. How much additional investment is needed, what is the scope of the problem, etc., etc.

development of more wind and solar power -> i about shouted at the stupid real player. WTF does this mean? solar and wind power is a non-issue and what amount of funding does he propose giving to this area and WHY. Another 0 specific answer.

expanding healthcare -> how? how much money? what type of insurance will we all have? how will he contain the main problem, which is huge medical costs? NO specifics, just "yeah, we want health coverage for everyone!". Remember Hillary Clinton's disaster in that area? I do.

Prison reform? He said very little on that, other than visiting mothers and potential criminals as babies? A very local approach that doesn't belong on the national stage. If he was really wanting prision reform, he'd talk about removing the STUPID laws the put people there that don't belong there, like drug use, three-strike laws, etc., etc.

Sorry, your "such BS" line is "pure BS". The man has very little specifics in his speech, and sounds just like a typical politician with a great grassroots following that just love anyone that is charismatic and isn't Bush.

I demand more from a candidate. Hopefully Dean will step up, or others in the party will.

[veganwitch]

94. about the prison reform...

i thought the comment he made about kindergarten teachers being able to tell you 4 or 5 students that were going to jail to be very... well considering the demographics of prison...racist, ignorant and pandering the fear of middle america.

one should fear about the future of child if they have a record, they are in a home of those with criminal records etc. but when you start profiling kindergarteners!!

[sugargoose]

50. I'm going to take issue with the Broadband to Rural part

I live in a rural area that was totally dying and is gradually reviving itself thanks to broadband solutions in our area. Having broadband Internet puts businesses on a level playing field in terms of serving and finding customers. It has enabled our businesses to grow and for our youth to return home instead of having to go to the urban areas for work.

You can think what you want about his motivations for wanting broadband in rural areas, but I KNOW how it has saved my community, and created jobs. Besides, you can donate to him via dial up or any number of means.

[Cha]

60. Thanks for your perspective, sugargoose! That's Good

that that is happening! Technology at it's best! Getting jobs into rural areas..I think that has a lot to do with why there are so many houses getting sold in our neck of the woods, too.

[Forkboy]

64. "ok,I'm reading this thread and..."

...

[Coffee Coyote]

74. Woof!

Watch out! The Cult of Dean will get ya!!

(Zomby here, saying hey!) :hi:

[caledesi]

80. What is the purpose of this thread?

To incite "Dean bashing?"

So you are not impressed. Hmmph. Well I am not impressed with all of our candidates, but I don't feel the need to post about it and get their supporters angry. They have a right to support who they want and the more fervor they have for their candidate, the better. We need more of that in the Dem party.

The "cue card" comment was way below the belt. I tend to notice the fact that he speaks without scripts. I tend to notice how many, many people attend and how enthusiastic they are. I tend to notice how many young people there are as his rallies.

He explained what he would do in Iraq now that we are in this quagmire. I guess you have only heard him once.

We love Dean? You bet, and we supporters will shout it from the rooftops.

[TLM]

83. Odd how the bashers try to spin support for Dean as a bad thing

like it is so awful that a candidate has democrats excited and that people are actually getting off their couches and getting active again... some for the first time.

All this time I thought that a candidate who could win support was a good thing.

[caledesi]

84. Exactly TLM...since when is excitement for a candidate bad?

I mean this is one thing that has been missing for a long time and I am not just talking the fervor for Dean. A lot of DUers here feel enthuiastic about their candidate. It's a good thing. <thank you Martha>

[Cha]

96. Yeah! It sounds like the ol' Green eyed Monster to me!

[Coffee Coyote]

97. nah

I understand where vegan is coming from. At one time, I WANTED to like Dean - to support him - but first I needed to get a feel for him by reviewing his stances over and over, and watching him speak on CSPAN, or be interviewed on those interminable chat shows.

And the problem was, I was left feeling empty. Uninspired. It caused me to have flashbacks to 1988 when the Dems were faced with another slew of mediocrities.

Plus, Dean's economic policies are too reactionary for me. He is too centrist for my tastes, and he is bland to match.

Feh on Dean. The overweening devotion by his supporters just gives me a bad vibe, worse than Jerry Brown's cult from 1992.

[stickdog]

99. It's an omnivore thing. You wouldn't understand.

:-)