As a recent defector to the Democratic Party,

[Ladyhawk]

I have some observations.

The Democratic Party is not going to be able to sway people in a day. It took mulling over what I'd learned in college to wean me away from the mindset of my parents, friends, community, old fundy Christian grammar high school and church.

I felt embarrassed about having been deceived until I gave myself a break and realized that few people are indoctrinated so thoroughly as I was. My family worshipped the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh. My school was full of really over-the-top radical religious reichers.

Through critical thinking (which probably still needs a tune-up since I acquired those skills only during and after college), I decided many years ago that my religion and the politics I'd been raised with just didn't make sense, but only in the past four years did I find the courage to realize I am an atheist and (most likely) a progressive on most issues.

I'm afraid my family will be forever stuck in their own views. None of them has had the out-of-the-box experiences that enabled me to see things with new eyes. Trying to convert people like my brother and mother is a waste of time. You should focus on people like me who felt disenfranchised, disillusioned by the Republican Party. I am sure there are more like me out there. Maybe some of them are just now catching on to the fact that Bush is not a nice guy.

I reluctantly supported the war in Afghanistan, but when focus shifted to Iraq without skipping a beat--and the media not only didn't criticize, but encouraged such a brazen misuse of power, I got suspicious. Fanaticism really upsets me. Seeing all those American flags didn't instill in me a sense of patriotism. Instead, I saw in my mind's eye old black-and-white movies of Nazi parades: the goosestepping soldiers, the raised-arm salute and...the flags. Flags, flags...everywhere flags. Then and now: flags, flags, flags.

Hitler is such an epitome of evil that he's used as a convenient symbol to smear any opponent that resembles him, but for some reason, the black-and-white movies running in my mind did not feel like some never-ending cinematic cliche. The flags. The fanaticism. The unwillingness of the press to report more than one side of any story.

Did I mention the flags?

I really don't know anyone who is in a prime position to be brought into the Democratic fold. In my ire over learning more and more about Bush, I found myself believing almost the exact opposite of every person in my family, politically and religiously. It's been lonely and heartbreaking. After doing many years of research, I felt I had enough evidence to defend my atheism, but I only have a few facts and an intense distrust of Bush to back up my politics. I'm in no position to get into a political pissing contest. All I know is that my family's values just don't seem right to me.

This has been a rambling post. I have a couple of questions:

1. How would you go about recruiting those fence-sitters who just need a bit of a nudge? They're out there. I was so bitter against the government, I couldn't in conscious vote for anyone or anything. Now I have a basic framework for voting in the next election. For the first time in over a decade I actually have a reason to vote. Maybe Bush's bungles are a blessing in disguise? We can only hope.

2. How do you deal with a family who disagrees with you on fundamental ideas of basic decency and morality? My family are the real thing when it comes to the right wing. (Yes, that rhyme was intentional. :D) How can I distance myself and cause the least pain to myself and my family? After being bitch-slapped so many times, I doubt I will ever put myself into a vulnerable position among family again. It hurts, but I have to find a way to maintain my distance. I'm not interested in hurting anyone. I'm only interested in finding a lifestyle that doesn't continually place me in the role of "whipping girl." I have been hurt over and over and I'm tired of it. There has to be a change.

On edit: This long post needs editing, but I'm too tired. I got out of the hospital yesterday morning and haven't slept a wink. Ever had a panic attack that lasted for hours? I didn't realize how badly the hospital stay bothered me until I got out. Only then could my emotions come to the fore. I have had been in the throes of a panic attack for most of the past 24 hours. I finally got some meds to calm me down, but oy! I can't recall ever feeling it that intensely and for so long.

[mandyky]

1. Hi Ladyhawk - not sure I have answers, but I relate

I went from being a Bible Baptist to being an agnostic, when I was about 16. I think I've always been a liberal, and I have family who are Republicans, but more moderate than fundy.

I don't talk politics with many in my family, I try to find friends with views like mine politically and keep family family. Sometimes it is hard. You've always got us DUers to yack at. While we can go at each other on some issues, a lot of us are very supportive when chips get down... :)

[shance]

16. Starting over.....

I am realizing more and more there are many of us that are going through this Ladyhawk. (It would be wonderful to have a forum here or start any kind of local salons on this very subject.***)

I can relate in many ways. I come from a Republican family as well and many of us are politically involved, some very involved in Republican politics. It has been very difficult through this Bush era and I understand the feeling of heartbreak at times.

I think this is true for individuals who come from opinionated families where politics were in almost every members blood. In ways it was almost all we talked about and I have heard that from other people who have 'crossed aisles'. Its lonely at times, but the greatest thing about it is I am finally figuring out who I am and what truly empassions and interests me, and what I am made of. OF course it helped that I moved away. Im sure at some point, my rather empassioned stance will mellow, but I think 'break-ups' require a good amount of anger and empassioned feelings, no matter how rational or irrational at times just to make the break. Its a double edged sword though, and I wont lie that there arent times I dont wish I could 'believe' like most of my family does. I would love to have a nice dose of some of that denial, or preoccupation in other things and Im sure in time I will.

So I have been trying to find other areas of interest where I can connect with my family. Thats been a little tough, but not impossible. Even though we all love politics first and foremost, we are all guilty of being too one dimensional, so Im trying to broaden my horizons. Which ISNT easy with all the craziness going on and at times having to surgically remove myself from DU! But I think in order to be the most effective in my life and livlihood, and maintain hope and perspectve, we must have other interests as well.

Thanks for posting. I understand and I know alot of others do as well. And GOOD FOR YOU for following your truth and an authentic path!

[TennesseeWalker]

2. "Bush's Bungles"

I agree that some of this idiocy has had a positive effect on a large number of the American people. A lot of people who didn't care to speak out are now doing so, having suffered through Bush's mishandling of the economy, burnout over Jerry Falwell lunacy and sick to death of being afraid. I mean, Duct Tape? C'mon....the majority of the American people find this stuff to be absolute horse shit.

The people in the public eye generally mouth this propaganda, and a bunch of them believe it. But a WHOLE LOTTA folks are started to think something fishy is going on.

Eventually, people are going to start saying that the Emperor has no clothes. Might be the best thing to happen to the Left in a long time. The People are really going to want the People's Party, and maybe Happy Days will be Here Again.

Hey, we've got to be positive sometimes! ;)

[UrbScotty]

3. About Question #1

Tell them about what Bush has done, and what our nominee would do about it. And give them detail: the more the better. Make it obvious that Democrats are the better party.

[Monaco]

4. Just so you know

Ladyhawk, you've made a courageous and difficult decision to break with everything you know. I wish I could say that it will be OK, but that would not be honest. You've found the strength to do what is in your heart and that's an important first step. Know that you will find companions to help you on the road, of this I am sure. I wish you well.

[harrison]

5. Congratulations on your willingness to purse the truth. I have a few

acquaintances who have made it to the other side and they have the scars to prove it. Most of the scars are from being alienated from family and former friends who have held it against them that they have changed their minds. Takes no small amount of courage to rebel against the indoctrination of a life time and begin to trust your instincts and intellect.

[rwheeler31]

14. If you can get a copy

of Jim Jeffords book, what a courageous man.

[legin]

6. Relax Ladyhawk

Your writting skills are wonderful.

[Evanstondem]

7. Recruiting Fence-Sitters to the Democratic Party

Tell them why you have switched, and draw their attention to the stories of others who are former Bush supporters.

[SharonAnn]

24. Yes, tell them why you switched - why that was important to you

For me, it was several things. The first was Reagan's Interior Sec'y, James Watt, wanting to clear cut our forests and sell off mining rights to our national parks. The second was their active role against policies that were good for women and their support of policies that were bad for women. Being a woman, I took it personally.

Generally, I usually talk in general terms like "Oh, I don't know. I just worry about my economic well-being so that I can take care of myself and my family. So I look for a president who has the policies that will work for our well-being. I have my religion with my church and I don't think they'd be very good at economics."

That kind of thing leaves room for them to think about it.

I also point out things like "Boy, these tax cut policies really aren't doing much for us, are they. My Federal taxes only went down a little but since they send less money to the state now, my state and county taxes went up a lot! Guess that wasn't such a good deal for the average guy."

[newyawker99]

29. Hi Evanstondem!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Flying_Pig]

8. Congratulations Ladyhawk, on your.....

conversion to reality. A bit rough of a ride isn't it?, but it is the place to be. As for your family, I am afraid I have had dismal luck at converting the totally brainwashed. Fortunately for me, for at least the last 100 years my family have been hell-raising liberals, so I've never had to attempt a "family conversion".

Regardless, if YOU can see the light, there is hope for others too. Perhaps they need a different stimulus to begin their journey. Perhaps now, is not the time. In due course though, if things keep going the way they are, only the truly evil and sick will continue to support these fascists. Those who do have some actual REAL morals, are bound to start asking questions sooner or later.

Anyway, welcome to the light of truth, and again, congratulations on your successful journey from the darkness. Best of luck to you...

Flying Pig
(Mike)
:hi:

[lcordero]

9. Here is why I don't support the attack on Afghanistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1550366.stm

[sistersofmercy]

15. Yikes! Thanks for that info hadn't seen it! Knew about the approach

for the pipeline going through afghanistan but wow missed that article. Thanks again!

[sistersofmercy]

10. I totally feel for you! I wouldn't talk to family about politics but if

the situation is that they draw you into a discussion then mercilessly browbeat you as a gang, then I suppose I'd stay away from them as well. My family has a nice mix mostly dems though but we certainly wouldn't purposefully humilate a repub family member. As far as fencesetters, I think the best approach is a calm and rational discussion with lots of information to back you up!

[xJlM]

11. As a lifelong democrat...

Or at least since I've been old enough to vote (1979), I extend a warm welcome.

Yeah, the assholes and their flags have made me think of Nazi Germany for quite some time now. And a lot of Americans can't even see the irony as they allow these lies to be thrust upon them. My family are all supposed democrats, but there's a few of them who won't even talk to me about politics because they know I'll let them know I think they're stupid if they support any of this "war on terror" horseshit.

In answer to your questions, I think...
1). Mr. Bush is doing a good amount of recruitment for us. I may go to work for the candidate I believe in, but there's no way for me to talk to repugs without getting loud and angry, and intentionally offending someone.

2). You can choose your friends, but you can't choose your family. Accept the way things are, and either avoid those you can't stand or go my route and try to intentionally offend them. They'll avoid you after a while, if you're good at it. I haven't seen my nephew the young repug in over a year, ever since I insulted his fundie wife.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

12. To people who work for a living...

And struggle to make ends meet, but still think that the repukes are "on their side", you need but point out the facts of what they are up to, as regards dienfranchising workers and unions. Point them off to the stories and Molly Ivin's recent column.

That will wake a few up.

[usregimechange]

13. Great and not so great, hang in there!

“Discrimination against nonbelievers is the last civil rights struggle in which blatant discrimination is viewed as acceptable behavior.” ~Herb Silverman

organize meetup.com

[xray s]

17. My suggestions

#1. Do not try to do it all by yourself. Point people to some of the excellent alternative sources of information on the net. I remember when the Iraq invasion was just about to begin. A person I know who is basically apolitical received an e-mail from someone recommending NewsMax as a source of info on the war. She forwarded it on to me. I responded I thought Common Dreams was a much better source of info, and she replied with a big "thanks". Basically I think a low key approach, gently opening peoples minds and letting human intellegence take its course, is better than "in your face" confrontation.

#2. I am in the same boat with you, surrounded by right-wing sibblings and my dad (mom's pretty open minded). Do not talk politics with your family. If they insist on bringing it up, say you love them too much to want to argue with them. Maybe that will help them rethink the kind of vicious attack politics people like Limbaugh and O' Reilly spew every day.

[Iverson]

18. Hey, Ladyhawk.

I don't have a lot practical for you right now, but just wanted to say good for you! Critical thinking is so important. Best of luck to you.

[Solomon]

19. I'm the same as you with regard to the religion part.

My family is not republican but they might as well be. They are fundies and I was literally raised in the church until I got away to college and learned that everything was a fairy tale. Things are very tense with my family since I refuse to participate religiously with them.

I'm still holding on to something, I guess you can say I'm a deist rather than an atheist. More gnostic than agnostic. Like all deists, I reject all revealed religions. I will go no further than to say I believe there is a God, but I don't mean some anthropomorphic boogeyman in the sky.

I sympathize with you greatly. It takes alot of courage to be true to yourself and to stop living to please other people. Stay true to yourself. And congratulations on finding DU. Everyone here knows the great feeling of relief you felt when you discovered DU. Right?

[Eloriel]

20. Welcome home, LadyHawk

What a courageous journey you've traveled. Good for you!

Eloriel

[searchingforlight]

21. Good for you. This was a step into maturity.

When one of my sons went to college, he called and during our conversation he told me that he had not been to church. I said GREAT. I told him how important it was that he made his own decision about what he believed in or didn't believe in. That we had given him tools to work with but not answers.

If you have problems with your family you can thank them for giving you the space to mature into your own decisions. If that doesn't work then request that certain subjects be off limits so that you can still enjoy one another.

Also, read "People of the Lie" by M. Scott Peck. It will give you a fasinating insight into how their minds work.

You've come a long way baby! Welcome.

[Semi_subversive]

22. Thank goodness

I was raised by parents who never pushed their political or religious beliefs on me. They wanted me to make up my own mind. I found out many years later that they were even to the left of me and we have the best subversive discussions you could imagine. And they are actively trying to convince all their 70-something square dance members that they're being screwed.

[Booberdawg]

23. I refer to myself as a "recovering asshole"

affectionately, of course.:D

I was a registered Republican until the mid 90's, basically because my family had always taught me "we are" and because I just didn't frickin know any better. It wasn't until I became better informed on the issues on my own that I switched party affiliation and became more vocal on political issues.

Many here will disagree with me but I think it is a total waste of time to try to recruit a freeper with reasoning and fact. Reason is not what drives them in the first place. It's more like a cult mentality - otherwise why else would people like rushbo and coulter be so popular? They are ridiculous!?!?!

As far as fence-sitters go, I would recommend just giving them the resources to help them come to their own conclusions. People really are more impressed with those who give them credit for the common sense to make the right choice - and are turned off by those trying to pressure them and provide propaganda to force them in a certain direction. The people we see becoming disillusioned with the bush crime family have come to their disillusionment on their own - not from any of us pushing it down their throats.

As far as a family who "disagrees on fundamental ideas of basic decency and morality" - I'm not sure I follow you on this. My family are all Republicans and disagree with me but I think we DO agree on fundamental issues of decency and morality. And they demonstrate this in their actions, as I have, so this is not an issue as far as I'm concerned. As far as politics go, it's just not a subject we discuss anymore. Apparently I HAVE earned enough respect in this family that I only ONCE had to tolerate the suggestion that I might be unpatriotic to question the motives, and be AGAINST, the war in Iraq in particular, and the policies of this administration in general. They know me better than that. And I didn't deserve it. Nuff said.

However, I don't LIVE in the same household with my family. This is tough for you. For your own sanity you really need to find a way to get out of this living arrangement. I know - easier said than done - you are on disability, I don't know what state you are in, but aren't you eligible for SSI? That should make you eligible for other living arrangements.

[RecoveringAsshole]

37. Hey I'm a recovering asshole too!!!!

From one asshole to another!!! :D

[donco6]

25. Bravo, Ladyhawk.

I can completely relate to your story. I come from a fundamentalist background and am now still sorting out what I believe about religion. Probably an atheist, but not sure.

My family is mostly RW, except one sister and my dad (I am 5th of 6.) We get together and dish on the others fairly regularly. My dad often comes to visit me and my partner, and is great with my being gay.

I, too, was a blind follower of others - church leaders, politicians, whatever. I didn't learn to live my own life until I was well out of college. I guess I've been trying to make up for lost time.

Thanks for sharing your story.

[jiacinto]

26. Welcome

Glad that you've joined our side. Welcome.

Question 1 answer: do it gently. Once in a while send them articles and maybe refer them to books. But don't be do aggressive. Gently nudge them.

Question 2 answer: you may just need to agree to disagree here.

[Arianrhod]

27. persuasion

1. How would you go about recruiting those fence-sitters who just need a bit of a nudge?

The primary key, IMHO: Patience.

First and foremost, I never enter a conversation with the intent of persuading anyone of anything. This was the hardest lesson for me to learn. Most people are already pretty well set in what they believe, and they can spot a proselytizer a mile away. So I simply let such motivations dissolve, to the best of my ability. (Not always possible, but I do always at least try.)

Secondly, I try never to raise my voice or become excessively emotional. I don't let others' views rattle me, and I ignore--again, as much as possible--the personal attacks I receive. I recognize that a personal attack is the last resort of someone who has no basis for arguing, so that, in effect, if I'm insulted I've already won. :)

With this mindset in place, I then simply speak the truth. I find that almost everybody responds to that. I mean, what else can they do, right? Just make sure that you can back up everything you say; otherwise, they'll eat you alive.

So far, I've seen two people do a complete weather change on *, and one of the deepest Republican believers at work told me the other day that Fox News is better at propaganda than Goebbels was. It took us nearly three years to get to that position. :)

2. How do you deal with a family who disagrees with you on fundamental ideas of basic decency and morality?

Very, very gently. No judgment, if possible. I keep in mind that all morality systems are arbitrary, including my own, and that one is not better than another. The best "technique" I've found is not to confront, but rather to question. "Why would you want to do that to someone else?" "What if they did that to you?" "Which way is really better?" This technique is contagious; my friends, seeing how it works for me, have also started to use it with good result.

Just suggestions. I hope they help you discover your own path.

[kispoko]

28. hiya ladyhawk

i don't think the democrats ought to be doing anything 'special' to recruit fence-sitters as potential party members/supporters other than what they ought to be doing anyway; practicing the core principles of the democratic party platform.

always lead by example. if you start worrying too much about developing strategies to 'convert' curious onlookers, you're likely to lose focus of what it is you should've just been doing that probably would've had the greatest effect anyway.

[Jacobin]

30. Hiya LadyHawk

A fundamental truism is that doing what is "right" is rarely easier than going with the flow. You got to your philosophy the old fashioned way..you worked for it through reading, observation, and intellectual struggle. YOu have an intellectual basis for your beliefs rather than having beliefs form the basis for your thoughts.

When possible, don't engage or participate in allowing yourself to be the whipping boy for their RW rants. Don't bring up those topics and if they start and begin to bash you, just walk out of the room.

I don't think you will change them, because such people haven't thought through their basic beliefs. They were handed those beliefs on a platter through mindless mantras. They don't have an intellectual foundation.

I've been through a similar trip with my family, although we are split...some of us are progressives and some are RWnuts. Holidays are tense.

Good luck with that free floating anxiety. Its a bitch. Been there and done that.

[OKNancy]

31. I've seen your other posts

and already know a bit about your struggle. As I recall, you are dependent on your parents and live at home because of your health.

It is much harder for you than some posters have suggested ( although they are kind, they probably didn't know that you just can't walk away)

Of course DU is a kind of family and community, and learning and reading is so important. You will, however need to maintain a peace within your family. My suggestion is to keep quite about your religious opinions and to lay low on the political too. No one can know what goes on in your brain. Try to meditate and be calm about your situation. Arguments and anguish can only make your health worse. You will probably never sway them, so try to find an equalibrium with your situation.

In an ideal situation, it would be really nice if somehow you could move out ( like in a group home) and have a caretaker. I know the state of Oklahoma does this for my sister-in-law, but she had to be declared destitute so the state would pick up the bill. That's a pretty drastic step.

Keep writing on DU ( perhaps in the Lounge) and let us know of your progress. I've seen DU members give such an outpouring of love and kindness to others in bad situations, I know you could get strengh from our virtual family.

[Ladyhawk]

39. I have lived in an apartment away from my mother

for several months now, but because disability doesn't pay enough for me to live on, I am still dependent on family. I found myself in a position where I was unable to take care of myself and ended up in the hospital. I just got out day before yesterday.

When I do meet up with family, politics almost always comes up. I find myself avoiding family functions where there isn't an easy way to leave if the need arises.

It really does hurt.

[G_j]

32. thanks so much for

sharing your story with us.
I grew up in a family of four, two republican and border line fundy.

Sometimes you just have do what you can to focus on simple family love and try to let the rest take a less important role. When my parents were ill (they eventually passed away), what seemed 'important' changed. That taught me something I wished I (and they) had understood earlier.

As for fence sitters or others the only suggestion I can make here is to be careful about linking progressive thinking and belief or non-belief in a devine 'whatever'. There are many devoutly religious folks here and being religious does not preclude compassionate liberal politics. Fundalmentalism generally does though. I also think it's a waste of time to try to 'convert' a fundy.

Better IMO to speak of basic issues that effect us all such as the economy, jobs, are our troops in danger because of deliberate lies? etc. etc. If they won't hear, try to just let it go, there are plently of folks who are coming around. Perhaps reading their stories, stories such as your own, will help.

anyway, I'm sure you will work it out because it sounds like you have grown stronger as time as passed. We are in solidarity with you. :-)

[zeemike]

33. I think

Your post was very well written and I would not change a thing.
I would only give you this advice on dealing with your family and take it for what it is worth.
Stand your ground firmly but don’t argue with them. If they want to know why you believe like you do just state it factually and without anger. Let them know that your love of them is not conditional on political belief and insist on the same from them.

[LWolf]

34. I'm a new dem myself.

I was never a republican, and always voted dem or 3rd party. I've never belonged to any political party before, in 25 years of voting. I took the plunge this year because I was outraged and horrified at the destruction the * administration was waging, and wanted to be in on the fight from the beginning. And because I found a candidate that actually speaks and votes what I think on the issues, and I wanted to be able to give him my vote in the primaries. This was huge for me. In 25 years as a registered voter, I'd never found a candidate I truly liked, trusted, or believed in. Until now.

So, for your questions:

1. Nudging the fence-sitters: I think the bush administration has nudged them plenty. All that's needed is to assure them that their vote will mean something and that they will be represented. You probably mean republican/independent fence-sitters; those that will vote but aren't sure if they are ready to cross over. These people just need to see the big picture as far as the direction Bush has and is taking us is concerned.

I'm interested in the 3rd party voters, the independents like myself, and those who have been so disenfranchised that they just don't show up to vote at all. If you want to bring them back into the fold, you can't nominate a business-as-usual repub-lite candidate. You can't follow the DLC's suggestion "not to criticize bush." You have to offer them real change that will make a difference right there where they live. Give them a candidate they can believe in, and they'll be there.

2. Dealing with right-wing family members: love them and leave politics alone whenever possible. When not possible, respond mildly. No criticism, upset, etc., just a simple, calm, respectful, "I disagree. I think that...." and change the subject.

[Booberdawg]

35. Where'd she go?

:shrug:

[w4rma]

36. You seem to have gone from one extreme to the other. Most won't do that.

I suggest using your experience and knowledge from having grown up in a fundamentalist family to think of ways you can explain Democratic policy positions to them in their own language.

For example:

Abortion: Kucinich has a good moderate and pro-choice position on abortion. He used to be pro-life. My opinion is that we shouldn't have the federal government tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies, but we should decrease the demand for abortions without increasing the demand for coathanger/backalley abortions through education and information.

Buisness: We need more and stronger small buisnesses and smaller big buisnesses. The government needs to be just strong enough to force big buisnesses (who can afford long and costly trials) to abide by the law on competion, environmental regulations, price fixing, anti-trust law, etc.

[Ladyhawk]

40. It took over fifteen years.

And I'm not sure I've gone from one extreme to another politically. I'm still mostly anti-abortion. And I'm certainly not a far left-winger. I don't follow any party line, but progressive movements are a better fit for me than conservative non-movements. :)

As for religion, until about three years ago, I was something of an agnostic. Only recently have I come to my atheistic opinions.

It wasn't an overnight switch. And I'm certainly open to new ideas that may change my position.

As for candidates, right now I'm only interested in getting rid of the Bushies. I have to think about just how much I want to re-distribute the wealth. Some people have earned a lot of money because they worked for it, but many simply inherited it. Also, it takes money to make money in most cases.

My little mind is mulling over how to best mix capitalism with socialism in a way that doesn't lead to totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is a bad thing whether it comes from the left or the right.

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. This is going to sound pretty ironic...but try to bear with me...

A lot of kids who are brought up with religion essentially crammed down their throat often end up in the boat you're in right now. Although I was fortunate enough not to grow up that way...I have always been very turned off by organized religion. At the same time, I always believed there was a higher being, who I referred to as God, and still do. I consider myself spiritual...and I've found that having the faith without having religion is a truly wonderful and powerful thing in my life. I see the church and "organized religion" as something negative in too many aspects to make it good for me. Basically, the second faith in God got too organized was the second mankind shit all over it. So...I cut out the middleman between myself and God. I don't need anyone to tell me what to believe or how to believe and I sure as hell don't need anyone using the bible to beat me over the head with. It's sickening that the good book is used to excuse and encourage hatred, bigotry and prejudice. That's not what it was intended for. God is about love and mankind created religion and made it about hate...the two just aren't consistent with each other. Okay, I felt I had to get that out of the way and give you something to think about...is it that you just don't believe there is a God or is it that you can't separate God from the church, religion and those who like to beat you over the head with the bible? I promise this is going somewhere...honest! I have to build you up to be open to using this wonderful tool that can help you deal with all the crap with your family. It really helps alot.

Whenever things are getting too much and you're finding yourself getting upset, just say this outloud and it should help put things into perspective:

The Serenity Prayer:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

You can't change how anyone else thinks or how anyone else acts. All you can do is change how you think and how you react. With a little practice, you can also learn how not to let others affect how you feel inside. You have the choice to feel however you want to...it just takes practice, patience and yes, sometimes a little prayer for strength, wisdom and guidance. And you can do that without stepping foot into a church or being part of any religious group. It's so much better when you take out the middleman who likes to beat you over the head with that bible every chance they get.

[Ladyhawk]

44. Becoming an atheist was mostly an intellectual decision.

I would love to believe in some form of god, but it makes no sense to me, cognitively. I investigated other ideas about god before deciding such a being does not exist. Sure I was disappointed by my fundy upbringing. But I searched for many years before totally canning the idea of a supernatural being. It would take an entire book to explain exactly why and I'm not interested in trying to persuade anyone.

Because I don't believe in god, the serenity prayer means nothing to me. I've heard this prayer my whole life. It used to mean something to me. Then I learned to hate it. Now it means nothing to me. Only I can learn to accept the things I cannot change. Only I can muster the courage to change the things I can. Only I can acquire the wisdom to know the difference. I lack omniscience so I will need real help from other people along the way.

I respect your right to draw your own conclusions. I have drawn mine. I struggle to keep an open mind, so I have no doubt that my world view will continue to change. However, my mind operates in the material world, in what can be directly observed, in what can be directly proven, in what can be directly disproven.

[Changenow]

41. I love your long post

and couldn’t agree more that it’s pointless to try to convert those on the extreme. They are about as likely to change sides as I am. On the other hand, as you say, there are those out there that are right on the edge ready to see the light. These folks are the Nixon-style Republicans. They are internationalists; they believe in sound fiscal policy and don’t think environmental protection is a government plot to seize property. These folks can be ours once they know the Democrats are not what Rush and the right say we are.

The greatest problem the Democrats face is that our real message is not heard.

Talk to your family about the weather, gardening and color choices for walls. Try to think of reasons you love them and cut conversations short if they go to areas which will frustrate you. For me it became so easy that I don’t remember why I ever engaged them in a conversation about anything that matters.

[Kbowe]

42. Send them a link to the DU

This will help

[Hubert Flottz]

43. Welcome!

People like you are the reason the GOPers don't want to build public school systems that really teach the truth! Thank you for caring about your country more than yourself! I salute you!

[Ladyhawk]

45. That's an interesting thought.

I don't know very many people from my school who directly challenged the indoctrination of a lifetime. I can understand why. It's a hard thing to do. You can't imagine the amount of emotional fallout.

[spooky3]

46. Congratulations

on everything you've accomplished. It's hard to add anything to the great comments already posted.

I also have a family like yours, though fortunately, my brother and I view things similarly. I agree that it is futile to try to influence the hard right. It's been my experience (and it sounds as though it is yours too) that right wingers have a control problem--that even if you try to avoid subjects on which you know there will be conflict, they will often make right wing comments. I just let these go, because I see them as control attempts, or an insensitivity or lack of respect for my views and ability to formulate them, and all that arguing will do is make everyone unhappy. There is a reason why Miss Manners says we should not discuss politics in social situations (unless of course everyone has agreed to do this and/or may be reasonably like-minded).

Have you considered joining Freedom From Religion Foundation and reading their newsletter? (ffrf.org) You may find that a comfort, to see that you are not alone, and that many of the people are older than you, i.e., so much for that old cliche about how we get more conservative as we "wise up" with age.

[Ladyhawk]

48. I read the FFRF newsletter.

I've let my membership expire, but they keep sending it to me. :D One of the major players in the FFRF, Dan Barker, used to preach in a church in my county. Reading his book, Losing Faith in Faith, gave me enough courage to tell my family I no longer believed. Mr. Barker's parents defected from fundamentalism with him. Unfortunately, mine did not. (I should point out that my father has been dead for several years.)

"We are humanists; materialists and a few utilitarians; rationalists; naturalists; some octogenarians; infidels; heathens; transcendalists and realists, disbelievers, secularists, universalists and hedonists; postitivists; determinists and several unitarians; separationists; empiricists and latitudinarians; atheists; agnostics; nihilists and theists; freethinkers; skeptics; existentials and deists. Though we call ourselves by many an intellectual appellation, we are harmoniously the Freedom from Religion Foundation."

--FFRF, song by Dan Barker

[Ladyhawk]

47. Because I'm new to the Democratic Party...

...I'm having trouble finding a Democratic candidate to support. I don't know enough about the players. I know it's important to find the right candidate, a candidate who can beat Bush, but I don't feel confident enough (yet) to make up my own mind.

I know what I don't believe in. I know some of what I do believe in. But I've had such a long history of being lied to that the negative posts about certain candidates fill me with distrust.

[Yupster]

49. Ladyhawk - two pieces of unsolicited advice

1. Don't get into arguments about politics with your family. They are more important to you than the marginal tax rate. Tell your parents how their grand-kids are doing, or how you are doing if you don't have grand-kids. I would give this advice to anyone, but it is even more directed to you because of number two below ...

2. It sounds like you are a young person. Excuse me if you're not. I would ask you to not assume your political journey is finished. You sound completely typical so far. You followed your parents while home. You became more liberal in college. Gosh! You know that makes you the same as everyone else who ever went to college.

When you get out of college, go off on your own and have your own family, your views will change. So far, it seems you've pretty much gone with the flow. There's no telling where you'll end up, a Maoist, green, libertarian, or somewhere in the middle.

In fact, from college to today, I've been everything from a Marxist to a libertarian, and I ended up a moderate-conservative Democrat, and who knows if that's my final stop? I'm glad I don't see old friends from college who would ask me "hey buddy, are you still working for the revolution ha, ha snort?

Because that was a long time ago, a time where I knew a lot less, but was convinvced I knew a lot more than I did.

[Ladyhawk]

52. No, I'm not young. I'm 36 years old.

And if you read some of my other posts in this thread you will realize that I know my "journey of the mind" is not finished. It took me many, many years to reach the place I am now. The journey doesn't end until death.

[LoneStarLiberal]

50. Hi Ladyhawk...Here Are Some Ideas on Both #s 1 and 2

#1 is the eternal question that haunts many of us at DU and I know is front and center on the minds of all the Democratic candidates right now. As each as a different ideological approach, each has a different idea of how to bring moderates over to the Democratic Party.

Some of my ideas for #1 include policies that hit back on issues that are both germane to the moderates sitting on the fence and that will provide a positive wider impact to our struggling country. The first two that come to mind are re-targeting tax cuts to middle class and lower class individuals instead of wealthy individuals and tightening the screws on corporate offshoring. Yes, there will be screams of "you are waging class warfare" and "you are raising taxes (by giving smaller cuts and repealing some of the obscene ones Bush has enacted for the wealthy)." Some Democratic candidate needs to say "yes, this is class warfare; class warfare against you and your oligarchs that are sponsoring you."

In terms of offshoring formerly American jobs, we cannot simply stop corporations from doing this. That would be wrong. But what we can do is enact legislation that would force corporations that would try to move their entire workforce offshore to pay payroll and other taxes on these offshore workers exactly like they would American workers and pay for job retraining and placement services for the workers whom the replace with foreign labor. We don't have to be jingoistic about it or racist about it; the problem, after all, isn't foreigners, it's our own corporations.

In terms of #2, that is a tough issue to handle. I live in Texas in a predominantly Bush/Cheney loving Republican part (North Texas) of the state, though you could argue the entire state save Austin is this way. Abusive conservatism has been the staple of Texas politics long before the conservatives in question left the Democratic Party for the Republican Party. I know the type you speak of well, although my very small immediate family are all liberals. There really isn't anything you can do to talk to them about politics besides a tactic I like to call passive demonization.

Passive demonization is sort of a rhetorical civil disobedience movement. It works particularly well with abusive conservatives. Once they get on a roll abusing you over whatever latest political topic is being discussed, simply say "Isn't it wonderful that all of us can disagree about these things and not resort to violence? Isn't our tolerance and freedom in America wonderful?" One of two things happens here: Either they stop (because you've leveraged them into a position from whence they cannot continue to attack without being un-American) or they continue to press the attack. This is usually just a red cape to the enraged abusive conservative who will continue to press the attack. When they continue to press the attack, frame their actions with something like "it's unfortunate that you just don't want to embrace the liberty, tolerance, and freedom that we are all afforded in America." Never ever resort to attacking their policies as stupid; merely continue to frame their intolerance, abuse, and authoritarian beliefs in the context where they belong: UN-AMERICAN.

It's not a perfect strategy but in my experience it is the best way to interact with people who have political beliefs that are noxious to you. The abusive conservative in particular cannot be countered nor reasoned with. Nothing is going to change their minds. They are analogous, using your comparisons to National Socialist nationalism, to Ernst Rohm's Brownshirts (the SA), spiteful and hateful followers who do not and will not question under any circumstances and will follow their leaders without hesitation.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

51. LadyHawk, sound like you have all of the credentials to get the job done

...it takes a wounded healer...:toast:
this thread of yours speaks volumns...now speak it to your family and friends...

[shatoga]

53. Welcome to the Light/ been on the darkside myself

I was told to change parties in 92
in order to form a bogus "Democrats for..." to re-elect a Republican Senator.
It worked.

I also met Democrats and found that each Democrats forms his/her own opinion on every issue.
Rather than just ditto the propaganda fed by Rush, and the media...Democrats seek the truth even if the truth hurts their own side.

As churches increasingly preach Republicanism
instead of Christianity;
it gets harder every day to fight for truth against the monolithic media that serves the darkside.

You have left "the very elect" who were deceived.
and joined instead those who are not deceived.

Welcome!

Tell anyone you can still speak with:
"Come into the light!"

"You can leave the darkside!"
There is life after Rublicanism.
You can leave the "cult-of-conservatism" and survive!

There is RESPECT for our Constitution in the Democratic Party.
There is freedom of speech & the right for each of us to form our own opinions, in the Democratic party.

Welcome to the light of truth and freedom!

WELCOME!

[BurtWorm]

54. You know the answers to your questions better than I do

Can you point to certain historical events (in your lifetime, I mean) or words, articles, books or ideas that shook you up or, more to the point, shook you loose from your own box? What sorts of things did people say or do, negative or positive, that stirred you to change or acknowledge the change of your position?